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Aurelio Smith’s Analysis of Active Information

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Recently, Aurelio Smith had a guest publication here at Uncommon Descent entitled Signal to Noise: A Critical Analysis of Active Information. Most of the post is taken up by a recounting of the history of active information. He also quotes the criticisms of Felsentein and English which have responded to at Evolution News and Views: These Critics of Intelligent Design Agree with Us More Than They Seem to Realize. Smith then does spend a few paragraphs developing his own objections to active information.

Smith argues that viewing evolution as a search is incorrect, because organisms/individuals aren’t searching, they are being acted upon by the environment:

Individual organisms or populations are not searching for optimal solutions to the task of survival. Organisms are passive in the process, merely affording themselves of the opportunity that existing and new niche environments provide. If anything is designing, it is the environment. I could suggest an anthropomorphism: the environment and its effects on the change in allele frequency are “a voice in the sky” whispering “warmer” or “colder”.

When we say search we simply mean a process that can be modeled as a probability distribution. Smith’s concern is irrelevent to that question. However, even if we are trying to model evolution as a optimization or solution-search problem Smith’s objection doesn’t make any sense. The objects of a search are always passive in the search. Objecting that the organisms aren’t searching is akin to objecting that easter eggs don’t find themselves. That’s not how any kind of search works. All search is the environment acting on the objects in the search.

Rather than demonstrating the “active information” in Dawkins’ Weasel program, which Dawkins freely confirmed is a poor model for evolution with its targeted search, would DEM like to look at Wright’s paper for a more realistic evolutionary model?

This is a rather strange comment. Smith quoted our discussion of Avida previously. But here he implies that we’ve only ever discussed Dawkin’s Weasel program. We’ve discussed Avida, Ev, Steiner Trees, and Metabiology. True, we haven’t looked at Wright’s paper, but its completely unreasonable to suggest that we’ve only discussed Dawkin’s “poor model.”

Secondly, “fitness landscape” models are not accurate representations of the chaotic, fluid, interactive nature of the real environment . The environment is a kaleidoscope of constant change. Fitness peaks can erode and erupt.

It is true that a static fitness landscape is an insufficient model for biology. That is why our work on conservation of information does not assume a static fitness landscape. Our model is deliberately general enough to handle any kind of feedback mechanism.

While I’m grateful for Smith taking the time to writeup his discussion, I find it very confused. The objections he raises don’t make any sense.

Comments
mapou
But this is exactly what we see in nature. We see flying mammals, we see dolphins with similar echolocation systems as bats, we see different ocean species sharing common swimming mechanisms, etc.
Those examples help the Darwinian story, not yours, I'm afraid, mapou. Flying mammals have wing structures in which the anatomical homologs are clearly mammalian, not bird-like. And dolphins and bats do indeed share genes that lend themselves to echo-locating functions - not surprisingling as they are quite closely related, so evolving similar functions from similar genetic material is not especially remarkable. What is far more remarkable is that when organisms from different lineages (e.g birds and mammals) adapt to a similar environment (marine), the same features are present, but with homologs relating to their own lineages, not each others. If this were not the case, computer-derived phylogenies wouldn't consistently give a tree, with penguins at the end of one branch and seals at the end of another.
Lateral genes are such a problem for Darwinism that Darwinists have been piling up all sorts of non-explanations to wipe the egg off their faces.
Not at all. Why should there be a problem? The fact that there are additional inheritance vectors does not falsify the mechanisms that were originally postulated. And certainly do not falsify Darwin's principle of natural selection from variants - it's just that we know know that there are non-longitudinal means of producing those variants.
This is precisely why, lately, we hear so much silly pseudoscientific talk about convergent evolution.
Convergent evolution normally refers to organisms that reach similar macroscopic morphologies by means of very different anatomical adaptations, e.g. birds and bats; dolphins and fish. They don't present a problem, because one look at the skeleton will tell you that they are from different lineages. But clearly, an environment that favours streamlining and flippers will tend to favour variants that are more streamlined and have more flipper-like limbs. You are finding problems where there are none. If you want to find a problem with scientific accounts of biology, I suggest you focus on OOL, because we still don't have a good account of that, and may never, although there are a lot of very suggestive leads.
The truth is that most of the LGTs occur early in the tree, which is precisely what we would expect from design.
Do you mean HGT? Because that's where they are most abundant - at the root of the tree. And I don't see whay it's a prediction of Design. And we actually know a lot about how HGT happens. Or perhaps you do mean LGT? In which case - sure, hybridisation occurs most often near branching points. But that's absolutely obvious under Darwinian mechanisms. It's not at all obvious under design - the reverse, I'd say, is true: it's when products have gone quite a long way down the lineage that you start to get hybrids (iPhones, for instance, from computers + phones).
On another tangent, what will you people do when long sequences and even entire genes are found to be identical in distant branches of the tree? Will you continue to plead convergence or will you come up with some other non-scientific, just-so story?
They already are, as you'd expect under common descent. Or do you mean "and absent from intervening branches"? I don't know, mapou - let me know when it's been discovered, and I guess the scientists who discover it will tell us how they propose to investigate possibly mechanisms.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
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EL says, I do not think you can infer a Designer from our observations. I say, But you do infer design from our observations. You are hardwired to do so. That is not at issue it is a fact. What you have is a preexisting design inference that you have chosen to discount for some reason. The only question is do you have warrant to do so. You don't come to to the design question from a neutral position. You can't. You start on the design side of the fence and therefore need compelling evidence to move to the nondesign side. Do you have any? peacefifthmonarchyman
May 3, 2015
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Elizabeth, The very nature of transitional forms would make it bush-like. Every population can be looked at like an asterisk as that is what pattern it has the potential to create. Endosymbiosis is nothing more than "those eukaryotic organelles sure do look like they coulda been bacteria at one time"- that's speculation, not science. Those still need to be tested.
The Designer hypothesis is consistent with absolutely any observation we could possibly make (if we stipulate that the Designer is omnipotent anyway).
That is false. There is a reason not all rocks are artifacts and all deaths are not murders.
The problem I have with the ID movement is not their conclusion but their method of reasoning.
It's the same reasoning used by archaeologists, forensic science and SETI and is based on our knowledge of cause and effect relationships. And all one has to do to refute it is demonstrate that mother nature is sufficient. ID posits testable entailments.Joe
May 3, 2015
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Liddle:
A tree diagram can be made from a common design.
Yes it can. But whereas common design can produce both tree and non-tree like lineages, Darwinian evolution (at least if we confine ourselves to longitudinal inheritance vectors, as Darwin did, and which are by far the most dominant vectors in macro-cellular organisms), can’t produce non-tree-like lineages. So that is a limitation. So if life evolved, we’d expect to see that limitation manifest in the distribution of properties of organisms, and we do. Whereas, if a Designer periodically intervened, we might see frequent violations of the tree,
But this is exactly what we see in nature. We see flying mammals, swimming birds and mammals, walking fish, we see dolphins with similar echolocation systems as bats, we see different ocean species sharing common swimming mechanisms, etc. Lateral genes are such a problem for Darwinism that Darwinists have been piling up all sorts of non-explanations to wipe the egg off their faces. This is precisely why, lately, we hear so much silly pseudoscientific talk about convergent evolution. The truth is that most of the LGTs occur early in the tree, which is precisely what we would expect from design. On another tangent, what will you people do when long sequences and even entire genes are found to be identical in distant branches of the tree? Will you continue to plead convergence or will you come up with some other non-scientific, just-so story?Mapou
May 3, 2015
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mike 1962
On the contrary, if we assume the Designer wanted to befuddle people like you, and give you rocks on which to stumble, we would expect that the Designer would occasionally arrange that animals would have odd things like laryngeal nerves that seemingly could use re-routing. (Although the Giraffe does just fine with the current configuration.) And guess what? That’s exactly what we find! How scientific such reasoning is!
Precisely so, Mike. Which is why we cannot conclude from what we observe that there was no Designer. The Designer hypothesis is consistent with absolutely any observation we could possibly make (if we stipulate that the Designer is omnipotent anyway). Which is why of course, people make no such conclusions (or, if they do, why such a conclusion is not scientific). All scientist conclude is that there are non-Design mechanisms that could do the job. The problem I have with the ID movement is not their conclusion but their method of reasoning. I do not think you can infer a Designer from our observations, any more than we can infer not-a-Designer.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
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Elizabeth LiddleWhereas, if a Designer periodically intervened, we might see frequent violations of the tree, for instance, the transfer of the excellent bird-lung pattern into mammals, who could well benefit from them, or a re-routing of the laryngeal nerve, at least for giraffes.
On the contrary, if we assume the Designer wanted to befuddle people like you, and give you rocks on which to stumble, we would expect that the Designer would occasionally arrange that animals would have odd things like laryngeal nerves that seemingly could use re-routing. (Although the Giraffe does just fine with the current configuration.) And guess what? That's exactly what we find! How scientific such reasoning is!mike1962
May 3, 2015
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@ Joe # 193 It's not the gradualness of evolution that would make it bush-like, but non-longitudinal inheritance mechanisms. And indeed, in bacteria, we do see lots of horizontal inheritance mechanisms, and indeed we see much more bushiness. In sexually reproducing species, we have other ways of recombining our genetic material, and so even though most inheritance is down lineages, there is still lots of scope for variation. And the issue of prokaryotes to eukaryotes is an interesting one - the best hypothesis, and one supported by quite a lot of evidence - is probably Margulis's. But there are others ("membrane infolding") for instance. Not that those are non-Darwinian - it's just that they presuppose a specific mechanisms for a fairly major heritable change.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
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Zac says, People have attributed mountains, storms, rivers, the Sun, jewels, the planetary motions, to design. I say, Yes and knowing the proximate causes of those things does not invalidate that original attribution any more than knowing that the pebble tray shook invalidates our impression that the big pebbles are on top due to design. Your problem is you somehow have mistaken the proximate causes of things with their ultimate cause. Winston Ewert's paper can help you to get past this sort of muddled thinking if you will simply allow yourself think about the implications. peacefifthmonarchyman
May 3, 2015
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Elizabeth- Darwinian evolution doesn't have a mechanism capable of getting beyond populations of prokaryotes and that is given starting populations of prokaryotes. And guess what? Prokaryotes produce non-tree like patterns. Also given the nature of gradual evolution we wouldn't expect a tree- a bush, maybe- but not a tree.Joe
May 3, 2015
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WE
It is biased compared to whatever you take to be your natural distribution.
So if I take my natural distribution to be different from yours then something may biased for you but not for me? Yet active information is a measure of bias. Whose bias?Mark Frank
May 3, 2015
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A tree diagram can be made from a common design.
Yes it can. But whereas common design can produce both tree and non-tree like lineages, Darwinian evolution (at least if we confine ourselves to longitudinal inheritance vectors, as Darwin did, and which are by far the most dominant vectors in macro-cellular organisms), can't produce non-tree-like lineages. So that is a limitation. So if life evolved, we'd expect to see that limitation manifest in the distribution of properties of organisms, and we do. Whereas, if a Designer periodically intervened, we might see frequent violations of the tree, for instance, the transfer of the excellent bird-lung pattern into mammals, who could well benefit from them, or a re-routing of the laryngeal nerve, at least for giraffes.
The history of cars can form a tree diagram.
If you were to plot a phylogeny for cars (using an objective technique), you'd get a reasonable tree, but a lot of jumps between lineages. So often, one company gets a neat design idea, and then all the other companies tool up to get on the band-wagon. Also, patents tend to keep things tree-like until they expire, then it's HGT all over the shop. So the noticeable dearth of solution-swapping between lineages, i.e. the fact that the tree-structure is much deeper than would be expected by chance, or by the product of designers capable of imaginative leaps, idea-borrowing, and re-tooling, is strongly suggestive of evolutionary processes at work rather than the work of an active intervening Designer. Also the complete absence tools, factories or even footprints. However, the existence of a universe in which all this could happen, or, indeed, the existence of existence at all, may be an argument for a creator deity. It's not one I find compelling though.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
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A tree diagram can be made from a common design. The history of cars can form a tree diagram.Joe
May 3, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: Skepticism says “I’m willing to explore other explanations if they arise” Sure. fifthmonarchyman: This is simply incorrect. In my everyday life I’m much more likely to incorrectly attribute the artifacts of design to “natural processes”. People have attributed mountains, storms, rivers, the Sun, jewels, the planetary motions, to design.Zachriel
May 3, 2015
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Joe:
Elizabeth- Phylogenetic trees are not nested hierarchies. Period
In that case, where I wrote "nested hierarchy" interpret my meaning as "phylogenetic tree". In other words a distribution of properties that forms a tree-diagram. What Darwin drew, in other words, and what the Linnaean taxonomy forms.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
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Hi, Winston
I say that active information is non-increasing. Since entropy is also non-increasing you decide that this means that active information and entropy are the same thing. They are not the same thing.
That was not my reasoning! It would be very strange reasoning, as entropy is always increasing! And in any case, it would be fallacious, even if the premises were true, which they aren't. I'm interested in your answer as to why they are different, but let me explain why I think they are related, and why I don’t think you conclusion is any different from the conclusion that the universe started with low entropy, which is the reason life is possible, but which leads to the conclusion that ultimately it will cease. Entropy can be described, informally, as "lumpiness" or, slightly more formally as "non-uniformity". If entropy is always increasing, then the ultimate fate of the universe would be "heat death" - a completely undifferentiated universe (hence the ultimate end of life). And thermondynamic entropy, as you know, has a very similar definition to Shannon entropy, give or take a constant - it's the sum of pi*log pi, where pi is the probability of the ith possible microstate of the system. Shannon entropy is the same, except that pi is the normalised frequency (or probability if you like) of the available patterns. Shannon entropy is thus maximised in for a uniform probability distribution, which means that a channel in which the symbols have a uniform probability distribution has a greater width than any channel with the same number of symbols but a non-uniform distribution, i.e. can carry more information. So as a rather dangerous shorthand, we can equate high Shannon Entropy with high information content, although really all it means it that it has high information capacity. So what we can say is that in a toy universe in with high thermodynamic entropy, i.e. a fairly uniform distribution of possible microstates, no one microstate is very probable, and so the chances of any given microstate occurring at a given time is low. On the other hand, in a toy universe in which the entropy is low, the chances of certain microstates occurring might be very high (and others far lower). So high thermodynamic entropy means that you would need a lot of information (in the usual English meaning) to know when to look at the system in order to find a target microstate. In contrast, low thermodynamic entropy means that, as long as your target microstate was one of the high-probability ones, you would need very little information as to when to look – hang around for a few minutes and one will turn up. This means that in a universe in a low entropy state (which ours was, and still is, compared to what it will eventually be), the probability distribution of microstates is not flat. So we have lots of microstates that are really quite common, even though, when the universe is in a high-entropy state, they’d be very rare. For instance, in a universe in a high entropy state, you are vanishingly unlikely to find a room that is warmer at one end than the other. In when entropy is low, on the other hand, it happens quite often! Similarly, complex configurations, such as vortices, are common in a low entropy universe, even though they are extremely unlikely in a high entropy universe. Thus, compared to what is likely to occur in a high entropy universe, many extraordinary things are really quite likely in a low entropy universe - tornadoes, for instance. You can see where I’m going with this, I hope. If target X has probability p in a high entropy universe, but probability q in a low entropy universe, then the Active Information represented by the low entropy state becomes equivalent to the entropy differential. Therefore, the Active Information required to make vortices, and chemistry, and, indeed, Life, possible, was indeed present at the start of the universe – embodied in its low entropy state, i.e. the state that gave it its extreme non-uniformity; its tendency to clump; its tendency to form a wide variety of elements of different weights; its tendency to give rise to energy humps and wells; in other word, the properties we call Physics and Chemistry, and what I have also called its “1/f-ness” – variability at a vast range of scales from the sub-atomic to the inter-galactic. And as entropy increases, the differential between what is probable in a flat universe (maximum entropy; maximum flatness of pdf) and what is probable in a lumpy universe, diminishes. So indeed Active Information will decrease over time. "Information", in your formulation will still be conserved, as the total is still pi*log pi when the distribution is completely flat. We could thank the Designer for granting us a universe that started in a low entropy state, but I’m not sure we can infer her existence from her apparent gift :) ETA: subscripts don't seem to work :( Hope you can figure out my subscripted i's.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
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zac says, In science, all presumptions have to be taken skeptically I say, Skepticism is good. Hyperskepticism not so much. Skepticism says "I'm willing to explore other explanations if they arise" Hyperskepticism says "I will disregard my hardwired impressions until I am given illreputable proof of their validity" You say, —especially intuitive notions of design, which have historically been misleading. I say, This is simply incorrect. In my everyday life I'm much more likely to incorrectly attribute the artifacts of design to "natural processes". I assume that you are referring to our discovery of proximate causes but that sort of thing does not in anyway prove that our initial impressions were misleading. The process goes something like this. 1) I notice that the large pebbles are on the top of the tray and infer design. 2) I discover the tray has been shook and this shaking can cause large pebbles to move to the top. number 2 does not invalidate number 1 peacefifthmonarchyman
May 3, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: The only question is whether we have any valid reason to abandon that preexisting inference. In science, all presumptions have to be taken skeptically—especially intuitive notions of design, which have historically been misleading.Zachriel
May 3, 2015
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EL says, Design and/or an inital low-entropy (i.e. lumpy, non-uniform) universe. Why should we infer Design? I say, It is not a question of why we should infer design. We are hardwired to infer design. We have no choice in the matter. The only question is whether we have any valid reason to abandon that preexisting inference. On the other hand we have no natural inclination to expect an uncaused low-entropy universe. It is a forced conclusion. Why make it? peacefifthmonarchyman
May 3, 2015
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Winston Ewert: I’m asking Darwinist not to assume that the fitness landscapes and laws of physics don’t matter, but that theory has to assume something about the nature of the fitness landscapes in order to work. Actually, it's a crosscheck. Evolution tends to work best when there is a ordered relationship between the genotype, phenotype, and environment. We have many observations which show this ordered relationship. Conversely, evolution tests the landscape, and historical evidence shows that the landscape exhibits properties amenable to evolution.Zachriel
May 3, 2015
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Elizabeth- Phylogenetic trees are not nested hierarchies. Period and I can provide a reference if you really need one. And just because a nested hierarchy can be depicted as a tree does NOT mean all tree patterns are a nested hierarchy. A Summary of the Principles of Hierarchy Theory That would be a start. You have absolutely no idea what a nested hierarchy is even though I told you.Joe
May 3, 2015
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1) Biased as compared to what? What does unbiased look like?
It is biased compared to whatever you take to be your natural distribution.
2) You call the –log base 2 of (p/q) active information. But you say p/q is not a probability. Yet in other contexts you define information as –log base 2 of a probability (e.g. endogenous information and exogenous information. It seems like active information is a different kind of thing from other kinds of information.
Indeed, it is somewhat different then other types of information.
For any pdf mu that gives a probability P of “hitting a target” it is possible to find a higher level pdf mu-bar that creates pdfs that in total have the same probability of “hitting the target”.
The paper uses a particular mu-bar derived from bar which ends up with the same total probability. There would in fact be many different mu-bar that would end up with the same probability of hitting the target as mu. I don't believe it really matters which one you end up using.
In other words “Active Information” is simply a measure of how lumpy the probability distributions are in the universe.
It is the measure of how biased the distribution is towards a particular target. If the universe is lumpy in arbitrary ways that don't tend toward the target of interest, the universe won't have active information.
So shaking the tray has inserted Active Information. Gained over time by a stochastic process (shaking the tray).
Where did the tray shaking process come from? If it was in your "universe" from the start, then you always had a high amount of active information towards large pebbles. If you introduced it later, you are interfering with the universe injecting active information after its creation.
In which case all you are saying is mainstream physics: that entropy is always increasing over the whole system – that you need to import energy to reduce local entropy (as I did when I shook the tray of pebbles). But we know this is possible – we can do it with pebbles, and plants do it with photosynthesis. Tornadoes do it. Adding energy to a system frequently reduces local entropy. So what has the LCI got to add that isn’t just a restatement of Boltzmann?
I say that active information is non-increasing. Since entropy is also non-increasing you decide that this means that active information and entropy are the same thing. They are not the same thing.
Sure, Darwinian models don’t attempt to account for the existence of the physical and chemical laws that make Darwinian processes possible.
That's not what I intended to say and what I elaborated in the following paragraphs. I'm not asking Darwinian theory to give an account for the laws of nature. That is outside of the scope of the theory. I'm asking Darwinian theory to make explicit the assumptions about the nature of fitness landscapes and physical laws. I'm asking Darwinist not to assume that the fitness landscapes and laws of physics don't matter, but that theory has to assume something about the nature of the fitness landscapes in order to work.Winston Ewert
May 3, 2015
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Joe
Lizzie I have quoted Darwin, so you lose. Phylogenetic trees are not nested hierarchies. You are confused. And Darwin did not say that common descent would produce a nested hierarchy. You are bluffing or lying.
Yes, they are, Joe. So if you mean something other than a tree structure by "nested hierarchy" then I don't.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: It might have been nice to explore exactly what targets EA seek. Evolutionary algorithms don't always have specific targets, but can have fitness landscapes that the replicators navigate. We provided a couple of examples, one from the scientific literature that was indirectly cited by News in another thread, which is why we provided it. See Krupp & Taylor, Social evolution in the shadow of asymmetrical relatedness, Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences 2015. Word Mutagenation doesn't have a target. Rather, the replicators explore the landscape without regard to finding any particular position on the landscape. fifthmonarchyman: But that ship sailed While relative fitness changes based on what other replicators are doing, you can even change the dictionary itself. As long as those changes occur gradually, then the replicators would track along with those changes, like a ship on the waves. This is all standard-standard for evolutionary algorithms.Zachriel
May 3, 2015
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Extinction has only defined the groups: it has by no means made them; for if every form which has ever lived on this earth were suddenly to reappear, though it would be quite impossible to give definitions by which each group could be distinguished, still a natural classification, or at least a natural arrangement, would be possible.- Charles Darwin chapter 14
and
There is another stringent condition which must be satisfied if a hierarchic pattern is to result as the end product of an evolutionary process: no ancestral forms can be permitted to survive. This can be seen by examining the tree diagram on page 135. If any of the ancestors X, Y, or Z, or if any of the hypothetical transitional connecting species stationed on the main branches of the tree, had survived and had therefore to be included in the classification scheme, the distinctness of the divisions would be blurred by intermediate or partially inclusive classes and what remained of the hierarchic pattern would be highly disordered.- Denton, “Evolution: A Theory in Crisis” page 136 (X, Y and Z are hypothetical parental node populations)
and
The goals of scientists like Linnaeus and Cuvier- to organize the chaos of life’s diversity- are much easier to achieve if each species has a Platonic essence that distinguishes it from all others, in the same way that the absence of legs and eyelids is essential to snakes and distinguishes it from other reptiles. In this Platonic worldview, the task of naturalists is to find the essence of each species. Actually, that understates the case: In an essentialist world, the essence really [I]is[/I] the species. Contrast this with an ever-changing evolving world, where species incessantly spew forth new species that can blend with each other. The snake [I]Eupodophis[/I] from the late Cretaceous period, which had rudimentary legs, and the glass lizard, which is alive today and lacks legs, are just two of many witnesses to the blurry boundaries of species. Evolution’s messy world is anathema to the clear, pristine order essentialism craves. It is thus no accident that Plato and his essentialism became the “great antihero of evolutionism,” as the twentieth century zoologist Ernst Mayr called it.- Andreas Wagner, “Arrival of the Fittest”, pages 9-10
Elizabeth doesn't know what a nested hierarchy is nor what it entails.Joe
May 3, 2015
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Lizzie I have quoted Darwin, so you lose. Phylogenetic trees are not nested hierarchies. You are confused. And Darwin did not say that common descent would produce a nested hierarchy. You are bluffing or lying.Joe
May 3, 2015
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Zac, very last comment on this It might have been nice to explore exactly what targets EA seek. But that ship sailed and was lost at sea in the midst of boring comments about whether or not Evolution itself is a search and whether English phrases are targets or fitness landscapes. Blah blah blah ZZZZ peacefifthmonarchyman
May 3, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman wrote:
No you have not inserted active information. The fact that the bigger pebbles will rise to the surface is a consequence of the laws of physics that are already present in the overall system from the beginning. You don’t add any information by letting the system play-out according to those already existing laws. The knowledge of what will happen when you shake already exists in your mind or you would not choose to shake in the first place.
OK, say it was an earthquake then.
We have active information from the preexisting laws and/or from your preexisting knowledge. No information whatsoever is added with the shaking. The resulting increased probability of picking a big pebble could be accurately predicted before you even touched the tray. peace
OK, fine. If you don't count tray shaking as Active Information addition, then I am happy to stipulate that the Universe already contained the information required to allow tray shaking. In that case Winston's three options are, as I said, two, and we are no forrarder. Design and/or an inital low-entropy (i.e. lumpy, non-uniform) universe. Why should we infer Design?Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
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In #140 Joe wrote:
Umm evolution is too messy to produce a nested hierarchy. Darwin went over that in 1859. Mayr went over that, Denton went over that and recently, in “Arrival of the Fittest”, Andreas Wagner went over that.
No, it isn't, and Darwin didn't say so. <blockquote. Nested hierarchies require distinct groups. Transitional forms would blur all lines of distinction. You have misunderstood the meaning of the term "nested hierarchies" then. Try "phylogenies" - it means the same thing, and they do not require discrete groups.
And BTW, the US Army is a nested hierarchy and it has nothing to do with evolution or descent with modification. Linnaean taxonomy, the observed nested hierarchy in biology, also has nothing to do with evolution nor descent with modification.
An observed nested hierarchy (or phylogeny) is just that - an observation. Linnaeus observed that the properties of living things produced such a hierarchy. Darwin posited, firstly, that such a hierarchy could arise from common descent, but that that in itself wouldn't account for adaptive change over the generations. His theory of Descent with Modification and Natural Selection accounted for adaptive change.
This is what happens when TSZ doesn’t allow dissenting views. Its regulars wallow in their own ignorance.
It most certainly does allow dissenting views. What it does not allow is the posting of porn/malware (or links) nor does it allow the posting of personal info. Those are the only things that will get a member banned. Apart from that, you can post any view you like at TSZ. We have only banned two people.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
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Winston, Is it your contention that any configuration of matter is information?Upright BiPed
May 3, 2015
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No, Lizzie, I made my case in two posts above- posts 139 and 140- you loseJoe
May 3, 2015
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