Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Bad Theology in Support of Bad Science

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Fransciso Ayala says intelligent design is an “atrocity” and “disastrous for religion” because it makes God directly responsible for all of the evil in the world.  Ayala apparently believes he can get God “off the hook” for all of the evil in the world by setting him up as a remote deity – along the lines of the wind-up-the-clock deity believed in by, say, a seventeenth century deist – who, while He may have set the initial conditions in the universe, has not tended to it since and therefore cannot be blamed if the evolutionary train has gone off the rails in his absence.  Rubbish.  Ayala is pushing bad theology to support his bad science. 

Let us examine Ayala’s claim that evolution gets God off the hook.  His logic apparently runs something like this:  As a Christian he concedes that God is the primary cause of the universe.  Nevertheless, he says, God established numerous secondary causes, including Darwinian evolution, which is responsible for the vast complexity and diversity of life.  But evolution is a creative force that is far from perfect, and such things as genetic defects, the cruelty in nature, and the defective human birth canal result from this imperfect process.  

Now here is where Ayala’s argument gets interesting.  Ayala seems to believe that by laying the imperfections in living things and the obvious cruelty in the world at the feet of a secondary cause (i.e., evolution), the primary cause (i.e., God) is relieved from “responsibility” for the aberrations resulting from the imperfect secondary cause.  

Ayala’s argument runs squarely counter to elementary logic.  Christians believe that God is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing) and omnibenevolent (unlimited in goodness).  The universe is contingent.  God did not have to create it.  He chose to create it.  Not only that; He chose to create a universe in which evil is possible.  And not only that; in His omniscience God knew perfectly (not probabilistically) exactly what the consequences would be of His decision to create a universe where evil is possible.  God knew evil would exist in the universe He created at the moment He created it.  Therefore, in a certain sense (call it an “ontological sense”) God is responsible for the existence of evil.  Please do not get me wrong.  I am not for a moment suggesting that God is morally responsible for the evil in the universe.  But it seems inescapable that He is responsible in the sense of establishing the conditions in which it is possible for evil to exist. 

Even if this were not the case, one would still have to contend with the combination of God’s omnipotence and omnibenevolence.  Suppose I am standing on a sidewalk.  I see a car is about to come up on the sidewalk and strike the person in front of me, and all I have to do to save her is reach out and give her a gentle tug backwards.  If I allow that person to be struck and killed by the car when it was well within my power to save her, two things are true.  My conduct has not conformed to the good, and in a very real sense I am responsible for her death.  In his omnipotence God is well able to stop all evil if He chooses to do so.  If God does not stop the evil He is well able to stop, is He not responsible for it? 

Where does this leave Ayala’s argument?  His logic does not bear up under the slightest scrutiny.  Exiling God to the “primary cause” hinterlands does not get God “off the hook” for the existence of evil in the world.  Intelligent design does not “make God responsible for evil.”  In the ontological sense we have discussed, God is responsible for existence of evil before intelligent design theory speaks.  Therefore, Ayala’s argument fails utterly. 

What about the theodicy?  How can we reconcile the existence of evil with an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God?  The answer revolves around the existence of free will.  Just as He had a choice regarding whether to create the universe, God also had a choice concerning the kind of universe to create.  He could create a universe in which love and also evil are possible, or He could create a universe in which love and also evil are not possible.  But He could not create a universe in which love, but not evil, was possible.  Why?  Because both love and evil are the results of choosing.  In an important sense they are the opposite sides of the same coin.  When a person loves, he chooses the good for the other, and when a person commits evil he chooses that which is not the good for the other.  And just as you cannot have a one-sided coin, you cannot have a universe in which it is possible to love (to choose the other) but not possible to commit evil (to not choose the other).  

God chose to give us the capacity to love.  He gave us the ability to choose (or not) the other.  In short, He gave us a terrible, awful, wondrous gift – free will.  But when He gave us the capacity to love, he also gave us the capacity to commit evil.  And scripture teaches us that all evil, both moral evil and natural evil, is the result of man’s choice to commit evil, which resulted in the fall.  

Ayala displays an appalling ignorance of the scriptures when he suggests that “intelligent design” makes God responsible for evil.  The scriptures teach quite clearly that evil is the result of man’s choice.  This is an elementary doctrine, a doctrine with which Ayala, a former priest, must be familiar.  So it is a mystery why he slanders ID the way he does.

Comments
StephenB @ 30
Atheist logic:
Theist strawmen
[a] There is no objective standard of morality
Did morality exist in the Universe before any life was there? If it is objective it does not depend on our existence for its own. Theists have not substantiated any claim for the objective existence of morality.
[b] We can meet that standard just as well as Theists.
Actually, if the Old Testament illustrates Christian morality then atheists can do a lot better.
[a] We can create our own morality.
Not only can but have. There have been many non-Christian societies that have nonetheless observed moral codes, unless you are claiming non-Christian societies are immoral by definition.
[b] Christian morality is not valid.
That is not the atheist claim. Christian morality can be as valid as any other. What it is not entitled to claim, what it is not justified or warranted in claiming is that it is any way superior to other moralities solely on the grounds of being, allegedly, a divine revelation. Unless Christians can demonstrate that their God exists that claim is baseless.
For those who have insisted that we can create our own morality, I have, on several occassions extended an invitation to do that very thing. I will put my moral standards on the table and let the atheist present his list. From there, we can negotiate.
There have been a number of extended threads discussing morality already. If the moderators have no objection I am happy to have another go round. Just accept that the is/ought problem prevents the grounding of any moral code in objective reality.
[a] My five standards are as follows: The Sermon on the Mount The Beautitudes The Ten Commandments The natural moral law The Golden Rule
I will see your Golden Rule and raise you one On Liberty by John Stuart Mill.
If two presumably well-educated people cannot work out a formal morality, how could six billion people do it informally? Obviously, they cannot.
I should say that, under the circumstances, the six billion have done pretty well. There are plenty or moral codes around, granted not all of them are religious but then that may be a good thing according to some studies.
Aren’t atheists fun!
At least we can laugh at ourselves. There are no silly rules like "Thou shalt not take the Dawkins name in vain".Seversky
May 14, 2010
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---riddick: "Your post only addresses the first part, moral evil. Perhaps you would like to take a crack at the second part of Barry’s assertion, natural evil. Here’s a question to get the ball rolling: Is there anything inherently evil about one animal eating another?" I was responding to seversky and zeroseven, showing that their relativistic morality is unreasonable. Natural evil does not come into play in that discussion. On the other hand, the theme of the post is very simple: The Theistic Evolutionst's main complaint against ID is an illogical, question-begging objection. Setting up an evolutionary process that allows evil to manifest itself is no less problematic that creating those conditions directly. Everyone is evading that point. If animal suffering is evil, the TE's arguments are unaffected and remain equally inappropriate. If animal suffering is not evil, then there is nothing to fuss about. Thus, if I provide my personal views on the morality of animal suffering [and I do have them] it will only provide more opportunities to evade Barry's original point.StephenB
May 14, 2010
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Barry's post only really deals with so called natural evil. We are not allowed to discuss the definition problem but theodicy in terms of evolution only involves this narrow concept.jerry
May 14, 2010
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StephenB, Barry's original post has this statement: "...and scripture teaches us that all evil, both moral evil and natural evil, is the result of man’s choice to commit evil, which resulted in the fall." Your post only addresses the first part, moral evil. Perhaps you would like to take a crack at the second part of Barry's assertion, natural evil. Here's a question to get the ball rolling: Is there anything inherently evil about one animal eating another?riddick
May 14, 2010
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Atheist logic: I [a] There is no objective standard of morality [b] We can meet that standard just as well as Theists. II [a] We can create our own morality. [b] Christian morality is not valid. III Application: For those who have insisted that we can create our own morality, I have, on several occassions extended an invitation to do that very thing. I will put my moral standards on the table and let the atheist present his list. From there, we can negotiate. [a] My five standards are as follows: The Sermon on the Mount The Beautitudes The Ten Commandments The natural moral law The Golden Rule [b] I have invited atheists multiple times to place their list on the table so we could begin the negotiation. That way we can work out "our" own morality. No one has ever taken me up on that offer. If two presumably well-educated people cannot work out a formal morality, how could six billion people do it informally? Obviously, they cannot. Aren't atheists fun!StephenB
May 14, 2010
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Sorry Above, did not intend to put words in your mouth. I don't think (despite the quote you referenced) Dawkins believes there is no right or wrong. He just doesn't believe the concepts are imposed from outside humanity. He believes (as do I) that we make our own morals. My questions were designed to clarify the position of those who say morals do come from outside of us. Seversky's questions summarise this, and to his questions I would add - how? ie how does this being inform us as to what is moral?zeroseven
May 13, 2010
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If we are not entitled to decide what is evil, then who is - and why?Seversky
May 13, 2010
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@zeroseven You seem a little confused. The issue I am raising here is the blatant amorality seen in dawkin’s worldview and writings. More specifically, I was critical of his materialism and genetic determinism, which in effect undermines ethics. Simply put, dawkins does not recognize evil as real, but likes to hijack the term in order to attack others. That’s what we call hypocrisy. I’m not sure if it’s intentional but you’re putting words in my mouth. Also, you said: -“But also turning the other cheek. I think today we consider it morally wrong not to respond to threats on our person or community, even though (as I understand it) Jesus taught forgiveness” That is a gross generalization. I don’t think that is even remotely true. If that’ were true then we are simply a ‘sea of soon-to-blind men’, marching to the tune of an eye for an eye. I don’t think that is the case.above
May 13, 2010
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above @24 I have always wondered how religious people know what is right and wrong. Does God tell you? Sometimes people say the bible contains the moral code, but that can't be right because there are many things in there that today we consider evil or at least morally bad (slavery being an obvious one that is often referred to). But also turning the other cheek. I think today we consider it morally wrong not to respond to threats on our person or community, even though (as I understand it) Jesus taught forgiveness. Also, what is the explanation for countries like Sweden that are pretty godless, but also very low crime and incidence of violence. And correspondingly, why is a very religious country like America so violent? Also, I know what is right and wrong and have not a religous bone in my body. How can this be? Does God force the moral code into me? But I don't think so, because as I understand it, you have to make a choice to accept God (which I haven't made). Yet I have a very strong sense of right and wrong that I very firmly believe in. These are very common questions, but I just have never heard convincing answers.zeroseven
May 13, 2010
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that God is morally responsible for the evil in the universe. If God didn't exist there would be no evil because God is the one who defines evil. If Dawkins was right there would be no absolute authority to say that the intentional infliction of suffering and the purposeful destruction of hope and love were evil. But those things exist and they are evil so since evil exist God exist.tribune7
May 13, 2010
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@lock #6 -"Dawkin’s declaration that there is no such thing as right and wrong, we are all just dancing to our dna". Is anyone else unimpressed by the materialistic superstitions hidden in this statement? How then is this guy going around calling other religions evil? And more importantly, why should I believe the nonsense that his DNA forces him to say?above
May 13, 2010
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---Tom Sawyer: "Those who are proponents of ID to varying extents are generally disingenuous, outright liars or intellectual frauds. (bornagain77 – gee I wonder what the root of that pseudonym is?). To claim there is a designer but attribute no title is fatuous to say the least. To choose to believe in design due to some real or perceived flaws and gaps in evolutionary theory is redolent of extreme intellectual laziness or dishonesty. To attempt to use science to negate science is intellectually fraudulent." I have been down this road many times with materialist/Darwinists whose mission is to mimic the “Socratic method” by asking apparently sincere questions even though they have no intention of listening carefully to the answers. They, like you, think they are being clever, but they, like you, are very easy to spot. It was clear enough where you were coming from in the beginning, which is why I went out of my way to provide not one but four examples showing why it is IMPOSSIBLE to discern the identity of the designer using current ID paradigms. Because your behavior exhibited all the signs of willful and obstinate ignorance, I provided the information in a specific order so as to test your sincerity and confirm my suspicions. You ACKNOWLEDGED AND CONCEDED ALL THE POINTS I made, shifted the arguments in order to change the subject, and now pretend as if the examples had never been offered at all. You were not, and are not, very clever at all. I notice, once again, that you did not distinguish between evolution and Darwinism, even after having been spoon fed this most basic point. All this information, by the way, can be found in the FAQ section. In any case, where is the difficulty? Were you expecting the opposite experience, hoping that an intelligent design website would promote Darwinian evolution at the expense of ID? In case you haven’t heard, that is what arguments do; they advance one point of view over another. Born again 77 is one of the most scientifically knowledgeable posters on this site, and he continues to wipe up the floor with Darwinists who cannot even begin to answer or even approach must of his points. On the other hand, he does not take the classic ID position, leaning more in the direction of Hugh Ross, who criticisms of the current ID paradigms [those officially endorsed on this site] are informed by the conviction that a phenomenological approach to science short-changes God. Naturally, you are not aware of that fact because, once again, your Darwinist ideology interferes with you capacity to ask relevant and intelligent follow up questions. We welcome all points of view on this site, even those who celebrate Christianity or even those try to argue on behalf of materialist/atheism. The difference is this: Atheists can provide no rational defense for their position, which is why they, like you, love to scrutinize but hate to be scrutinized. There is only one “fraud” in this exchange, and it isn’t us.StephenB
May 12, 2010
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So Ayala’s solution is Plato’s solution. The second causes did it. A clear sign of closet Platonists in our midst is the claim that nature is evil. This is silly. Not only is it not evil; it is “very good.” It is highly functional and overwhelmingly beautiful. In fact it is so good that its goodness exceeds the ability of men to fully comprehend it. Evil is a very specific thing. It consists of not loving God with our whole being or our neighbors as ourselves. There is no evil, so defined, in nature. Tsunamis, lightening strikes, cancer cells, even the little wasp that pained the refined sensibilities of evolution’s most famous Sensitive Plant—none of them are evil. They are simply facts of nature. Plato is the spiritual father of a whole tribe of Sensitive Plants who feel strongly dissociated from being, a syndrome aptly described by Hegel as the “unhappy consciousness.” Their unhappiness draws them to dualism. They tend to condemn all existence as evil, just as Plato did—not just the cruelty, egotism and sensuality of men, which truly are evil—not just human nature—but nature itself. The problem with blending Plato’s dualism with Christianity is that it makes God out to be a bad creator. Plato avoided this problem by claiming that the Highest Good is absolutely transcendent and does not directly create anything. This left him free to condemn material existence without implicating God. Christians don’t have this luxury. Orthodoxy begins with “God the father almighty, maker of Heaven and earth.” According to the Bible, God himself created that which exists and saw that it was “very good.” To characterize nature as evil, then, is to make God out to be a liar or a fool. The intersection between Plato and Darwin is noteworthy. Idealism and Natural Selection may appear to be polar opposites, but in fact they both arise from the same impulse. Both reveal a deep unhappiness with existence and a desire to draw a bright line between matter and God. Both men began their philosophic enterprises with resistance—Plato to the perceived materialism of synthetic methods, and Darwin to Transcendentalism and the notion that nature expresses a benevolent creator. Both men used this force of resistance to invest their theories of value with a highly becoming simplicity, separating themselves from the complications that arise from synthetic methods. And both men also fell prey to the natural limitation of resistance, which leads to nothingness. Plato negated present existence as a thing without value, but this made it impossible for him to produce a substantive description of “the good.” Resistance, in itself, is nothing. It cannot produce any positive result. The same was true of Darwin. When God is eliminated, it becomes impossible to account for the goodness of nature. There is no mechanism in nature per se for making things better. Science grinds to a halt as evolutionary theorists resort to storytelling and poetry in an attempt to compensate for the lack of any experimental evidence whatsoever of ameliorative evolution. Plato was overthrown by a new and cannier description of the synthetic method and the notion of the golden mean. It is not yet clear whether Darwin’s materialism will meet a similar fate—whether some new Aristotle or new Kant will arise to refold the resistance of modernism into a new construct of being. What is obvious, however, is that science has moved around and beyond Darwinism. Basic research today is inherently constructive, especially in the field of molecular biology—a construct by default, since it describes synthetic beings in synthetic language. It does not need Darwin or his narrative. All it needs is the excellence of nature itself.allanius
May 12, 2010
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Would you say that only in the case of biology is it NOT the result of intelligence?
An algorithm that tries various things and keeps the ones that work might be thought of as intelligent.Petrushka
May 12, 2010
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Barry, "I am gaveling Jerry’s “define evil” discussion." That's ok with me. In three years no one has been able to deal with it so I do not suspect it would happen now. But it solves the theodicy problem much easier than anything else I have seen and maybe someone would want to consider it in the future. I will still keep bringing up every time I see the word theodicy used as the center of discussion especially as it relates to evolution.jerry
May 12, 2010
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I enjoy your site, but you lose me here... "But He could not create a universe in which love, but not evil, was possible. Why? Because both love and evil are the results of choosing. In an important sense they are the opposite sides of the same coin." I sure hope that can create a world in which love but not evil is possible. I'm counting on this in Heaven, when our wills will finally, truly be free from our sinful nature. A better explanation for the problem of evil can be found here: The Problem of Evil AnsweredPuritan Lad
May 12, 2010
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Tom: "If an orange is 99% orange in color over its surface and 1% green because it hasn’t yet had enough light shed on it, evolutionists will argue that it is ‘orange’. IDers will, of course argue that it is ‘green." Why don't you use the same inference with regard to the origin of information. Would you say that only in the case of biology is it NOT the result of intelligence?Lock
May 12, 2010
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Tom, Your accusations are not even a clever defense. And they all end in the same place, Please allow me to show you where that place is. It will require you to answer a question. Here is the question: What is the lie that ID is telling?Upright BiPed
May 12, 2010
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tom, you state: "Those who are proponents of ID to varying extents are generally disingenuous, outright liars or intellectual frauds. (bornagain77 – gee I wonder what the root of that pseudonym is?)." But tom I have never shied away from admitting I am a Christian? Since I directly follow "intellectual fraud" in your post do you mind providing the evidence that I have not fully engaged the evidence presented by evolutionary materialists? I can provide direct evidence that evolutionists have not engaged the evidence I present.bornagain77
May 12, 2010
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Barry, I would add that the presence of the potential for evil is a teaching tool. How can we understand goodness without the specter of evil? Isn't that what God was warning Adam and Eve about? Knowledge of the good/evil dichotomy is an extreme burden which anyone wishing to experience it must accept. So far we have failed miserably, and God readied Himself in the Person of Christ to pick up the pieces. In fact when Christ spoke to Saint Faustina just before WW2, He lamented the fact that so may did not understand the depth of his caring for souls, and that 'all' had a chance for life through his unfathomable mercy. An atheist may rightly ask why would He not take steps to prevent WW2. I think it is in the same way that my family got tired of saving my brother from drugs. How many times did my parents, siblings and I try to communicate with him. How many trials we went through. How many phone calls from the cops, how many stolen watches, stolen money, how many lies, how many arguments, how many hard feelings, how much distrust. In the end, my brother admitted his lack of will to fight the drugs in a notebook he kept (its one of those bittersweet treasures). He went to rehab, in and out, held a job for a bit, went back in, but in the end, he hung himself. My Mom was racked with guilt to the day she died, wondering where she went wrong. But my Dad was stronger, and right in my opinion. You can only do so much, can only pick up the pieces so often. At the end of the day, it was my brother's choice, his will that mattered the most. He simply couldn't find the right door in time. No, I think God has it just right. Give us the tools we need, be at the ready to assist and pick us up when needed, but never, never coerce our decision making. We have to make that individual AND collective decision to say no to evil. Now I'm starting to sound like a bumper sticker. But its true isn't it? What is more profound that Christ saying if a stranger asks you for your shirt, give him your coat as well. This is one of the seeds that contains the solution to evil in our world. Who will water that seed? I've tried it a couple of times and the feeling is immeasurable. Thing is, why am i not doing more of it? That is the question I struggle with every day. By the way, you're right. Unfortunately, Ayala has been away from his original calling too long. I think I can see a bit of the reason he may have hung up his collar. I would say to Ayala: God's house is built on logic, its walls are painted with emotion. Its furniture is built with logic, yet it artistic details come from His heart. Don't mix up the roles of logic and emotion*. They have their own space and place but complement each other and work in tandem to create the whole. *Actually, i think this is where ID will struggle. Ferreting out the logic of life's structure (why this type of pigment, why this weight of paper)is very doable. It is the art, the emotion (why blue, why soft lines) God put into the world that will be hard to map.
God chose to give us the capacity to love. He gave us the ability to choose (or not) the other. In short, He gave us a terrible, awful, wondrous gift – free will. But when He gave us the capacity to love, he also gave us the capacity to commit evil. And scripture teaches us that all evil, both moral evil and natural evil, is the result of man’s choice to commit evil, which resulted in the fall.
Oramus
May 12, 2010
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"Jerry’s question is a pertinent one." And, that *is* what this thread is about.Ilion
May 12, 2010
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semi-off topic: All Of Creation - Mercyme http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkdniYsUrM8 I don't think it is possible for someone of Ayala's philosophical bent to write such a beautiful song.bornagain77
May 12, 2010
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Jerry's question is a pertinent one. Evil seems to be something we intrinsically know but are unable to define easily. I don't have the answer but someone once told me that evil is when you hurt your soul by committing an act that is at odds with it. So if I commit an act of murder, it is not the very act that is evil but the side effect of how the act damages your our soul. One of course needs to commit to the notion of a soul for this to make any sense.aqeels
May 12, 2010
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How do you use the preview window?warehuff
May 12, 2010
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Barry, Here's the problem with trying to use free will to excuse the existence of evil in the world: 1. Assume that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent. 2. Assume that humans have free will. 3. God's omniscience means that God knows, before conception, what each person will freely choose to do with her life. This includes the evil that she will commit. 4. God chooses to allow some humans to be born, but not others. Free will nevertheless exists (by our assumption #2). 5. God could choose to prevent the birth of those who would freely choose to do evil, and allow the birth of those who would freely choose to do good. This would not prevent them in any way from exercising their free will. 6. God does not do this. 7. Therefore, God is responsible for the evil that people commit.pelagius
May 11, 2010
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I am gaveling Jerry's "define evil" discussion.Barry Arrington
May 11, 2010
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Sorry for the errors, I keep forgetting to use the preview window.Lock
May 11, 2010
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Hey jerry, ever heard of Snake Alley in Taipei? Ravi Zacharius tells the story of meeting a Dutch woman on a plane after leaving that city. She had rescued an 18 month old baby girl from the arms of a man who had ingested a concoction of snakes blood and liquor there. He was sexually devestating her. Ravi asks (and I can do no better,) "is that eviant? Abberant? A slip? Or is it evil? What say jerry?Lock
May 11, 2010
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Riddick, I have wrestled with the same questions. I was startled to read Dembski's 'The End of Christianity' in which he seems to have solved the problem. I think he nails it. You should check it out. Taking Dembski's solution as it is with mankind being at fault, not God, God can still take responsibility for our sin in the same way a father can take responsibility for his son's foolishness in breaking the neighbor's window. One can take responsibility without being responsible. And that is because the term has different meanings. Here are two: 1. He is a responsible young man, always taking care of his affairs. 2. He is responsible for this mess. Taking responsibility (in both senses) does not require guilt, but one of them does require love compassion, and understanding. Two stories really strike me about this issue. One was Ravi Zacharius discussing Dawkin's declaration that 'there is no such thing as right and wrong, we are all just dancing to our dna'. It's the same thing, accept the logic and then God is responsible. In response, Dr. Zacharius said, "Ok, I'll accept that. How much more profound then are the words of Jesus that we must be born again"? The other was a personal story of my own. A man said to me (rather forcefully), "I have a real problem with any God who would condmen me for the way HE made me!" So I asked him, "So are you saying that a real God would take responsibility for you?" Read Dembski's book. It's quite astonishing... Barry, as for Ayala... bad philosphy (logic) is bound to lead to both bad science and bad theology. Afterall, they are one in the same; both being different sides of the same coin, and hopelessly dependent on the substance upon which they reside. A medium that we affectionately call the Logos.Lock
May 11, 2010
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Barry, I tried to start a discussion on this last week and every time I have done son in the last 3 years it has gone no where. I maintain that there is no evil that God is responsible for and no one has ever really defined the term. What we often refer to as evil is extreme unpleasantness. There are other types of things that people also call evil but no real definition. Here is my comment from a week ago on the discussion of Fuller and Ruse: "I always find the theodicy discussions so irrelevant because I have not found anyone here or anywhere else who can define evil. I have asked several times here and there have not been any takers yet. A couple have said something along the line of perverting or frustrating God’s will but that has nothing to do with disease, earthquakes and other natural tragedies. Maybe someone should take a shot at whatever the worse natural outcome imaginable and why it would be evil. It was the Lisbon earthquake that accelerated all this God is the cause of evil discussion but I find it all irrelevant. Any takers this time? Because if there are none then Ruse’s and many other’s arguments are pointless." https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/fuller-vs-ruse-some-thoughts-on-the-controversy/#comment-353797jerry
May 11, 2010
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