Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Bait And Switch (Intuition, Part Deux)

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Once upon a time people thought that the sun revolved around the earth because this was intuitive. They were wrong. Once upon a time people thought that the moon revolved around the earth because it was intuitive. They were right. Therefore, intuition can’t be trusted.

Good enough. Evidence eventually confirmed the truth in both cases.

Then along came neo-Darwinism in the 20th century. Intuition and the simple mathematics of combinatorics suggest that random errors and throwing out stuff that doesn’t work can’t account for highly complex information-processing machinery and the information it processes in biological systems. There is no evidence, hard science, or mathematical analysis that can give any credibility to the proposed power of the Darwinian mechanism in this regard.

Intuition suggests that step-by-tiny-step Darwinian gradualism could not have happened, because the intermediates would not be viable. A lizard with proto-feathers on its forelimbs would be a lousy aviator and an equally incompetent runner. We find no such creatures in the fossil record, for obvious reasons. We find long periods of stasis, and the emergence of fully developed creatures with entirely new and innovative capabilities.

So, the Darwinian argument essentially goes as follows: Because human intuition is sometimes wrong, we can ignore intuition, basic reasoning, historical evidence, and the lack of empirical evidence — but only in the case of the claims of the creative power of the Darwinian mechanism.

This is classic bait-and-switch con-artistry: Intuition can be wrong, therefore evidence, the lack thereof, and logic can be ignored or assumed to be wrong as well.

Comments
But alas khan, you don't ever provide any empirical evidence,,, whereas I have test after test after test to back up my claims for genetic entropy constraints on all "kinds' that were created by God on earth.bornagain77
July 31, 2009
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Khan,,why didn't you wait til later on this evening to spin your Darwinian Fairy Tale,,I could of gone to bed afterwards LOL,,,Alas you say feathers evolved by some genetic hocus pocus but,, "Feathers give no indication that they ever needed improvement. In fact, the “earliest known fossil feather is so modern-looking as to be indistinguishable from the feathers of birds flying today.” Yale University’s Manual of Ornithology—Avian Structure and Function. Need I remind you that if you are going to use genetic similarity as evidence then you must withstand rigor? But if we apply the light to the best known empirical example of genetic similarity used by evolutionists to support their dubious claims of "goo to you" the evidence evaporates rather quickly: Most materialists are adamant Darwinian evolution is proven true when we look at the supposed 98.8% genetic similarity between chimps and man. Though suggestive, the gene similarity, even if true, is not nearly good enough to be considered conclusive scientific proof. Primarily this "lack of conclusiveness" is due to concerns with the second law of thermodynamics and with the Law of Conservation of Information. But of more pressing concern, body plans are not even encoded in the DNA code in the first place. This inability of body plans to be reduced directly to the DNA code is clearly shown by Cortical Inheritance. Cortical Inheritance: The Crushing Critique Against Genetic Reductionism - Arthur Jones - video Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JzQ8ingdNY Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1bAX93zQ5o This inability for the DNA code to account for body plans is also clearly shown by extensive mutation studies to the DNA of different organisms which show "exceedingly rare" major morphological effects from mutations to the DNA code. Darwin's Theory - Fruit Flies and Morphology - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZJTIwRY0bs If all that wasn't enough, the Human Genome Project really put the last nail in the coffin for "Genetic Reductionism": DNA: The Alphabet of Life - David Klinghoffer Excerpt: But all this is trivial compared to the largely unheralded insight gained from the Human Genome Project, completed in 2003. The insight is disturbing. It is that while DNA codes for the cell's building blocks, the information needed to build the rest of the creature is seemingly, in large measure, absent. ,,,The physically encoded information to form that mouse, as opposed to that fly, isn't there. Instead, "It is as if the 'idea' of the fly (or any other organism) must somehow permeate the genome that gives rise to it." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/07/dna_the_alphabet_of_life.html Thus the 98.8% similarity derived from the DNA code, to the body plans of chimps and man, is purely imaginary, since it is clearly shown that the overriding "architectural plan" of the body is not even encoded in the DNA in the first place. Of more clarity though, this "98.8% similarity evidence" is derived by materialists from a very biased methodology of presuming that the 1.5% of the genome, which directly codes for proteins, has complete precedence of consideration over the other remaining 98.5% of the genome which does not directly code for proteins. Yet even when considering just this 1.5% of the genome that codes for proteins, we find that the proteins, which are directly coded by that 1.5% of the genome, are shown to differ by a huge 80% difference between chimps and man. Chimps are not like humans - May 2004 Excerpt: the International Chimpanzee Chromosome 22 Consortium reports that 83% of chimpanzee chromosome 22 proteins are different from their human counterparts,,, The results reported this week showed that "83% of the genes have changed between the human and the chimpanzee—only 17% are identical—so that means that the impression that comes from the 1.2% [sequence] difference is [misleading]. In the case of protein structures, it has a big effect," Sakaki said. http://cmbi.bjmu.edu.cn/news/0405/119.htm Eighty percent of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees; Gene; Volume 346, 14 February 2005: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15716009 A recent, more accurate, human/chimp genome comparison study, by Richard Buggs in 2008, has found the true genome similarity between chimps and man fell to slightly below 70%! Why is this study ignored since the ENCODE study has now implicated 100% high level functionality across the entire human genome? Finding compelling evidence that implicates 100% high level functionality across the entire genome clearly shows the similarity is not to be limited to the very biased "only 1.5% of the genome" studies of materialists. Chimpanzee? 10-10-2008 - Dr Richard Buggs - research geneticist at the University of Florida ...Therefore the total similarity of the genomes could be below 70%. http://www.refdag.nl/artikel/1366432/Chimpanzee.html The chimpanzee is found to have a 12% larger genome than humans. Thus, at first glance it would seem the chimpanzee is more evolved than us, but this discrepancy is no anomaly of just chimps/humans. This disparity of genome sizes is found throughout life. There is no logical "evolutionary" progression to be found for the amount of DNA in less complex animals to the DNA found in more complex animals. In fact the genome sizes are known to vary widely between Kinds/Species and this mystery is known as the c-value enigma:bornagain77
July 31, 2009
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Joseph,
BTW Khan, did you know there is as much scientific data that demonstrates that bacteria are derived from euks as there is that euk mitochondria are derived from proks?
this is the problem. you think one study showing one result is as good as 1000 showing the opposite, in 100 different ways. same thing with the theropod origin of birds (for BA^77). anyway, here's a semi-current review of the evolution of feathers including the genetic aspect. www.yale.edu/eeb/prum/pdf/Prum_2005_MDE.pdfKhan
July 31, 2009
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BTW Khan, did you know there is as much scientific data that demonstrates that bacteria are derived from euks as there is that euk mitochondria are derived from proks? IOW all you do is post the same ole tired and refuted nonsense and you think that is doing something.Joseph
July 31, 2009
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Khan, You don't have a position from which to argue. All you have are flase accusations and nonsense. For example I have already stated that I don't need a mutation-by-mutation analysis. However you do need something, and you don't have anything. IOW you don't have any evidence that an accumulation of genetic accidents can do the things required. You want to talk about fossils then explain why the vast majority of the fossil record (>95%) does not support universal common descent. Fossil interpretation is very subjective and without any genetic data to support the interpretation it amounts to "I wouldn't have seen it if I didn't already believe it". So to sum up: Khan doesn't have anything but he can distract from that fact by alledging other people are the problem. As for being vague, if it wasn't for its vagueness the theory of evolution wouldn't have anything.Joseph
July 31, 2009
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Joseph, it is pointless to argue with you because you keep repeating the same thing over and over again. to you, nothing but mutation-by-mutation analyses will do, so why would I even bother talking about fossils? just to hear you repeat the same vague unanswerable questions again?it's a waste of everyone's time.Khan
July 31, 2009
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Khan, I almost forgot that you don't want to take a stand but think you can argue against ID, which appears to be a topic you don't understand.Joseph
July 31, 2009
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The Nilsson and Peleger’s paper is irrelevant because it doesn't have any genetic data to support the premise. “Evidence”(?) for the evolution of the vision system Andrea Bottaro said the following over at the panda’s thumb:
Eyes are formed via long and complex developmental genetic networks/cascades, which we are only beginning to understand, and of which Pax6/eyeless (the gene in question, in mammals and Drosophila, respectively) merely constitutes one of the initial elements.
IOW the only evidence for the evolution of the vision system is that we have observed varying degrees of complexity in living organisms, from simple light sensitive spots on unicellular organisms to the vision system of more complex metazoans, and we “know” that the first population(s) of living organisms didn’t have either. Therefore the vision system “evolved”. Isn’t evolutionary “science” great! I say the above because if Dr Bottaro is correct then we really have no idea whether or not the vision system could have evolved from a population or populations that did not have one.Joseph
July 31, 2009
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That a materialist would view the intractable evidence for ID as a villain is a rich irony indeed.Upright BiPed
July 31, 2009
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The elephant in the corner is more akin to "Mr Big" in the Rocky and Bullwinkle cartoons.Dave Wisker
July 31, 2009
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I don't get it,,,Did the evolutionists finally demostrate something empirically,,,did they actually evolve a eye? Did they even actually evolve a eye-spot for that matter...Did they even pass the simple fitness test for bacteria? Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - "The Fitness Test" - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BwWpRSYgOE Testing the Biological Fitness of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria - 2008 http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/darwin-at-drugstore Oh,,I guess that would be too much to ask for actual evidence... So we can just take their "unbiased" word for it in some hoodwinked simulation... Have you evolutionists completely gone off the deep end? How in the world can you guys come on this site a spout such tripe as if it is going to stand up to rigor?bornagain77
July 31, 2009
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One would think if you could just tar and feather Berlinski, no one would notice the flaws of a paper whose senior author characterizes as “not based on computer simulation of eye evolution” and “the genetic algorithms need a fair amount of work before the model will be useful” after its publication and consequent heralding by the minions as a final word on the matter. Now, would you like to debate the evidence for ID or is this line of exchange safe and satisfactory? .Upright BiPed
July 31, 2009
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Odd, after all that the elephant in the corner remains.Upright BiPed
July 31, 2009
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Upright, I'm aware of Berlinski's reply to Nilsson. An exam-ple of its basic incompetence can be found seen in his complaint that teh reference to Snyder's work was invalid because it dealt with arthropod compound eyes, not vertebrate eyes. Apparently, Berlinski thinks the biophysics behind one facet of a compound eye is different than the biophysics of one vertebrate eye. It's not-- they both have lenses that focus light on sensitive tissue. The principles and relationships of the parts are the same. It's this kind of incompetent nonsense that reduces Berlinksi's complaints to little more than petulant bawling about Nilsson and Pelger's failure to spoon-feed him a basic understanding of the subject at hand. As Nilsson pointed out, had Berlinski actually asked him for further calculation data detail or clarification, he would have been glad to do so. Perhaps Berlinski could then have found a legitimate reason to criticise the paper's model- even published a paper pointing out its flaws. But he didn't.Dave Wisker
July 31, 2009
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Such exchanges are often painted this way. Cut it short to make it appear your side had the last word, and call it an 'evisceration' or 'debunking.' (Those words sound so final, so victorious.) Disregard the part where the other side offers a counterargument.ScottAndrews
July 31, 2009
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http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?program=CRSC&command=view&id=1509Upright BiPed
July 31, 2009
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DW, This has been covered to the enth degree. Repeatedly. Anyone wanting to see the original critique (and the actual core of Berlinski's issue with the paper), the follow-up responses from the evolution consortium, and Berlinski's ultimate reply, may do so here.Upright BiPed
July 31, 2009
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Hmmm,, John Sanford agrees with Berlinski 100%. I wonder do you think John Sanford is ignorant on genetics as well? It is also extremely interesting to note, the principle of Genetic Entropy lends itself very well to mathematical analysis by computer simulation: "No human investigation can be called true science without passing through mathematical tests." Leonardo Da Vinci Using Computer Simulation to Understand Mutation Accumulation Dynamics and Genetic Load: excerpt: We apply a biologically realistic forward-time population genetics program to study human mutation accumulation under a wide-range of circumstances. Using realistic estimates for the relevant biological parameters, we investigate the rate of mutation accumulation, the distribution of the fitness effects of the accumulating mutations, and the overall effect on mean genotypic fitness. Our numerical simulations consistently show that deleterious mutations accumulate linearly across a large portion of the relevant parameter space. http://bioinformatics.cau.edu.cn/lecture/chinaproof.pdf MENDEL’S ACCOUNTANT: J. SANFORD†, J. BAUMGARDNER‡, W. BREWER§, P. GIBSON¶, AND W. REMINE http://mendelsaccount.sourceforge.net http://www.scpe.org/vols/vol08/no2/SCPE_8_2_02.pdf Whereas, evolution has no rigorous mathematical foundation with which we can rigorously analyze it in any computer simulation: Accounting for Variations - Dr. David Berlinski: - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2GkDkimkE EV Ware: Dissection of a Digital Organism excerpt: Ev purports to show "how life gains information." Specifically "that biological information... can rapidly appear in genetic control systems subjected to replication, mutation and selection." (We show that) It is the active information introduced by the computer programmer and not the evolutionary program that reduced the difficulty of the problem to a manageable level. http://www.evoinfo.org/Resources/EvWare/index.html Contamination of the genome by very slightly deleterious mutations: why have we not died 100 times over? Kondrashov A.S. http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/jt/1995/00000175/00000004/art00167 The Frailty of the Darwinian Hypothesis "The net effect of genetic drift in such (vertebrate) populations is “to encourage the fixation of mildly deleterious mutations and discourage the promotion of beneficial mutations,” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/07/the_frailty_of_the_darwinian_h.html#more High genomic deleterious mutation rates in hominids Excerpt: Furthermore, the level of selective constraint in hominid protein-coding sequences is atypically (unusually) low. A large number of slightly deleterious mutations may therefore have become fixed in hominid lineages. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v397/n6717/abs/397344a0.htmlbornagain77
July 31, 2009
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"they are deliberate attempts to eliminate uncomfortable scientific results. " But still the changes in the Nilsson and Peleger paper never happened. It is just speculation or else we would be inundated with the case history not a model.jerry
July 31, 2009
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Berlinski's misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Nilsson and Peleger's paper is epic. Nilsson evicerates him here: http://www.talkreason.org/articles/blurred.cfm#lund Highlights: Berlinski thinks the response R is a measure of visual acuity:
His essay starts with an attempt to describe the original paper, Nilsson and Pelger (1994). Apart from a mix up in sequence chronology and some minor peculiarities, the only major flaw is his misunderstanding of the response R, which he quotes as a measure of visual acuity. It is not, and the original paper does not say so. This is the first serious mistake and it gets worse in the remainder of the essay.
Berlinski claims important information is missing in the paper when it isn't:
Berlinski's next move is to list important information, which he claims is missing in the original paper. At regular intervals he repeats the phrase: "they do not say". But all the necessary information is there. Given only 800 words to respond, I cannot reply individually to every point here, but two examples will do: Berlinski claims that there is no unit for morphological change and that we do not explain how we arrive at a sum of 1829 steps of 1%. Explanations to both are given on page 56 of the original paper, starting with the bottom line of the left column. He further claims that we do not explain how morphological change relates to improvements in visual acuity, although most of pages 54 through 56, including graphs and legends of Figures 1 and 3 deals with exactly that, in great detail.
Berlinski basically doesn't understand that the references section in a scientific paper is there for a good reason:
He continues for the rest of his essay on other issues where he believes he has detected logical flaws. He is not right in a single case, and instead reveals an insufficient background in visual optics, sampling theory, basic evolutionary theory, and more. Nor does he seem to have read the key references such as Warrant and McIntyre (1993), Falconer (1989) or Futuyma (1986). Without such knowledge I understand that it is hard to grasp the details of the Nilsson and Pelger paper, but it is standard scientific practice not to repeat lengthy reasoning when a short reference can be given.
Berlinski doesn't even understand basic definitions and terms used in the paper (a common problem with amateur biologists):
But there is more to Berlinski's misconception of our paper. He has a problem with definitions. "Morphological change" becomes "biological change". Spatial resolution (visual acuity) becomes sensitivity of vision. He does not distinguish between selection and intensity of selection. He is obviously confused between the 1% steps which we use as a unit of measure for morphological change, and the 0.005% change per generation which is our conservative estimate of evolutionary rate.
Berlinski is ignorant of basic population genetics:
Later in the essay, he attempts a peculiar probability argument with random substitutions of letters. He does not realize that his example implies a single individual in the population, and then there can of course be no selection at all. Again, he badly needs to read Falconer's standard work (1989).
Berlinski doesn' t even read the figures and the accompanying explanatory text provided in the paper:
Contrary to Berlinski's claim, we calculate the spatial resolution (visual acuity) for all parts of our eye evolution sequence. The functions in Figure 1 display the results. These plots are computer generated, using small increments. Values and units are given on the axes of the plots, and procedures are explained in the legend. The underlying theory is explained in the main text, including the important Equation 1 and a reference to Warrant and McIntyre (1993) where this theory is derived. Yet, Berlinski insists that "Nilsson and Pelger do not calculate the visual acuity of any structure". It would be much simpler for Berlinski if he went just a tiny step further and denied the existence of our paper altogether.
Berlinski hasn't earned the right to be taken seriously:
Had these and all his other points been unfortunate misunderstandings, I would have been only too happy to help, but I get the distinct impression they are deliberate attempts to eliminate uncomfortable scientific results. Why does Berlinski not read up on the necessary scientific background? Why does he so obviously misquote our paper? Why has he never asked me for the calculation details he claims to want so badly? It is simply impossible to take Berlinski seriously.
Even a broken clock tells the time correctly twice a day (my emphasis):
Berlinski is right on one point only: my paper with Pelger has been incorrectly quoted as containing a computer simulation of eye evolution. I have not considered this to be very serious, because a simulation would be a mere automation of the logic in our paper. A complete simulation is thus of moderate scientific interest, although it would be useful from an educational point of view.
Dave Wisker
July 31, 2009
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Khan, This evidence, and biased classification, you have presented on UD is far from conclusive, yet you treat it as such. Why is this? "maniraptorians are considered by some scientists to be birds, not reptiles or dinosaurs. As you yourself have noted, Stephen Czerkas and Larry Martin have concluded that Caudipteryx (and Shuvuuia deserti as well as all maniraptors) is not a theropod dinosaur at all. They believe that Caudipteryx, like all maniraptorans, is a flightless bird, and that birds evolved from non–dinosaurian archosaurs." and again: Closer analysis enabled a researcher at the American Museum to realize the unidentified 1923 creature was also Shuvvuia. Recently, a new specimen of this birdlike animal was found with fibers that are chemically and structurally identical to modern feathers. Scientists now think that this feathered animal belongs to a group of primitive, flightless birds. http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:JIamT2VZrPgJ:www.detectingdesign.com/PDF%2520Files/Feathered%2520Dinosaurs%2520no%2520more%25202.doc+dilong+collagen+proto+feathers&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a You need a lot, lot, more clear evidence than the obfuscation of classification you have presented to make your case, especially since many who are very knowledgeable of the integrated complexity and "perfection" of the feather consider its origination "miraculous" “Feathers are a little too perfect—that’s the problem,” notes Yale University’s Manual of Ornithology—Avian Structure and Function. Feathers give no indication that they ever needed improvement. In fact, the “earliest known fossil feather is so modern-looking as to be indistinguishable from the feathers of birds flying today." Yet you seem to delight in being very ambiguous in your science khan...Why is this? Why should your ambiguity carry any weight at all? You have yet to "come into the light" and demonstrate evolution empirically. Care to list any examples? The malaria parasite, due to its comparatively enormous population size, has in 1 year more mutation/duplication/selection events than all mammal lineages have had in the entire +100 million years they have been in the fossil record. Moreover, since single cell organisms and viruses replicate, and mutate/duplicate, far more quickly than multi-cellular life-forms can, scientists can do experiments on single celled organisms and viruses to see what we can actually expect to happen over millions of years for mammals with far smaller population sizes. Malaria and AIDS are among the largest real world tests that can be performed to see if evolutionary presumptions are true. "Indeed, the work on malaria and AIDS demonstrates that after all possible unintelligent processes in the cell--both ones we've discovered so far and ones we haven't--at best extremely limited benefit, since no such process was able to do much of anything. It's critical to notice that no artificial limitations were placed on the kinds of mutations or processes the microorganisms could undergo in nature. Nothing--neither point mutation, deletion, insertion, gene duplication, transposition, genome duplication, self-organization nor any other process yet undiscovered--was of much use." Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution, pg. 162 Swine Flu, Viruses, and the Edge of Evolution http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/swine_flu_viruses_and_the_edge.html A review of The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism by Michael J. Behe The numbers of Plasmodium and HIV in the last 50 years greatly exceeds the total number of mammals since their supposed evolutionary origin (several hundred million years ago), yet little has been achieved by evolution. This suggests that mammals could have "invented" little in their time frame. Behe: ‘Our experience with HIV gives good reason to think that Darwinism doesn’t do much—even with billions of years and all the cells in that world at its disposal’ (p. 155). http://creation.com/review-michael-behe-edge-of-evolution Again khan why will you ignore this clear empirical evidence I presented and rationalize it away as meaningless, then turn around and present very ambiguous evidence, which is far from conclusive, and demand that we accept it as proof for evolution? Why is it so important for you to believe that you were the product of blind purposeless processes? I would think that a sane person would find the fact that he was created, and that death is not the "end of the line", to be a very joyous thing to consider! Yet you treat it as if it would be the most horrible thing in the world to find that we were actually created,,,For the life of me I can understand neither your shoddy science nor your philosophical basis for "running from God".bornagain77
July 31, 2009
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Joseph,what makes you think I'm arguing that? all I'm trying to do is correct GIl's post, which stated that no "lizards with protofeathers" had been found in the fossil record. in fact, dinosaurs with proto-feathers have been found. that's it.Khan
July 31, 2009
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Khan, What is the scientific data which demonstrates that feathers can evolve from a population that never had any?Joseph
July 31, 2009
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BA^77: Birds are in the Class Aves. Shuvuuia is in the Class Sauropsida. any more questions about whether it was a bird or not? They are both in the Phylum Chordata, I'll give you that.Khan
July 31, 2009
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Abone Khan links to the oft refuted paper- A Pessimistic Estimate of the Time Required for an Eye to Evolve- Too bad neither of the authors even knows if any amount of mutational accumulation can allow for a vison system to evolve in a population that never had one. That is the problem- there isn't any scientific/ genetic data to support the evolutionists' position.Joseph
July 31, 2009
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Khan, You continually speak of hypotheses yet you cannot provide one that supports your position. That seems a little strange...Joseph
July 31, 2009
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counterintuitive quote: Due to their evolutionary preconception that Lucy was a bipedal precursor to our genus Homo, they call this plain evidence that Lucy knuckled-walked “counterintuitive.” They suggest the possibility that “the locomotor repertoire of A. afarensis included forms of bipedalism, climbing and knuckle-walking.” This is a tenuous proposal, however, as knuckle-walking is obviously very different from bipedal locomotion. Collard and Aiello suggest avoiding the "counterintuitive" evidence that Lucy climbed and knuckle-walked by discarding it as unused “primitive retentions” from her ancestors.--- ---"We were sent a cast of the Lucy skeleton, and I was asked to assemble it for display,” remembers Peter Schmid, a paleontologist at the Anthropological Institute in Zurich. … "When I started to put [Lucy’s] skeleton together, I expected it to look human,” Schmid continues “Everyone had talked about Lucy as being very modern, very human, so I was surprised by what I saw.” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/02/my_pilgrimage_to_lucys_holy_re.html#morebornagain77
July 31, 2009
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To firmly correct khan's claim for proof: The beta-keratin (without alpha-keratin) was found in Shuvuuia deserti. At least some are arguing that Shuvuuia deserti "belongs to a group of primitive, flightless birds." http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/fightingdinos/ex2.html As with Caudipteryx, Shuvia deserti is classified as a maniraptor. Maniraptorians are considered by some scientists to be birds, not reptiles or dinosaurs. Stephen Czerkas and Larry Martin have concluded that Caudipteryx (and Shuvuuia deserti as well as all maniraptors) is not a theropod dinosaur at all. They believe that Caudipteryx, like all maniraptorans, is a flightless bird. So khan in reality has nothing but unsubstantiated conjecture, on what is very flimsy evidence in the first place, to try to make his case for bird evolution. Clearly this is not the practice of rigorous science! Evolutionists clearly must rely on this sort of shady evidence which is so easily refuted upon cursory examination because they have nothing of rigor which can withstand scrutiny..It truly is pseudo-science at its intellectually dishonest best.bornagain77
July 31, 2009
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It's a pity that the discussion on feathers has generated more heat than light. However, I think the following points are fairly clear: (1) Feathers are exquisitely complex structures. Their origin demands a detailed explanation. Vague explanations are satisfactory only when the possibility of the events postulated is not in doubt. (2) We don't known when feathers originated, or how many times. (3) We don't know which dinosaurs had feathers. It seems some did, but we're not sure. (4) Despite the strong suggestive similarities between theropod dinosaurs and birds, we still don't know how dinosaurs are related to birds. We should keep an open mind - and look for saome dinosaur DNA which might resolve the matter once and for all.vjtorley
July 31, 2009
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Khan tells us an old tale, one never too tired to be resubmitted. " even when modeling has shown that an eye could evolve in a few hundred thousand years" Nilsson and Pelgar again? From our friend, the agnostic skeptic David Berlinski...
Whatever the merits of computer simulation, however, they are beside the point in assessing Nilsson and Pelger's work. In its six pages, their paper contains no mention of the words "computer" or "simulation." There are no footnotes indicating that a computer simulation of their work exists, and their bibliography makes no reference to any work containing such a simulation. Curious about this point, I wrote to Dan-Erik Nilsson in the late summer of 2001. "Dear David," he wrote back courteously and at once, "You are right that my article with Pelger is not based on computer simulation of eye evolution. I do not know of anyone else who [has] successfully tried to make such a simulation either. But we are currently working on it. To make it behave like real evolution is not a simple task. At present our model does produce eyes gradually on the screen, but it does not look pretty, and the genetic algorithms need a fair amount of work before the model will be useful. But we are working on it, and it looks both promising and exciting." These are explicit words, and they are the words of the paper's senior author. I urge readers to keep them in mind as we return to the luckless physicist Matt Young. In my COMMENTARY essay of last December, I quoted these remarks by Mr. Young: "Creationists used to argue that ... there was not enough time for an eye to develop. A computer simulation by Dan-Erik Nilsson and Susanne Pelger gave the lie to that claim." These, too, are forthright words, but as I have just shown, they are false: Nilsson and Pelger's paper contains no computer simulation, and no computer simulation has been forthcoming from them in all the years since its initial publication. Sheer carelessness, perhaps? But now, in responding to my COMMENTARY article, Matt Young has redoubled his misreading and proportionately augmented his indignation. The full text of his remarks appears in last month's COMMENTARY; here are the relevant passages: "In describing the paper by Nilsson and Pelger ... I wrote that they had performed a computer simulation of the development of the eye. I did not write, as Mr. Berlinski suggests, that they used nothing more than random variation and natural selection, and I know of no reference that says they did...... The paper by Nilsson and Pelger is a sophisticated simulation that even includes quantum noise it is not, contrary to Mr. Berlinski's assertion, a back-of-the-envelope calculation. It begins with a flat, light-sensitive patch, which they allow to become concave in increments of 1 percent, calculating the visual acuity along the way. When some other mechanism will improve acuity faster, they allow, at various stages, the formation of a graded-index lens and an iris, and then optimize the focus. Unless Nilsson and Pelger performed the calculations in closed form or by hand, theirs was, as I wrote, a "computer simulation." Computer-aided simulation might have been a slightly better description, but not enough to justify Mr. Berlinski's sarcasm at my expense..." And here is my familiar refrain: there is no simulation, "sophisticated" or otherwise, in Nilsson and Pelger's paper, and their work rests on no such simulation; on this point, Nilsson and I are in complete agreement. Moreover, Nilsson and Pelger do not calculate the visual acuity" of any structure, and certainly not over the full 1,829 steps of their sequence. They suggest that various calculations have been made, but they do not show how they were made or tell us where they might be found. At the very best, they have made such calculations for a handful of data points, and then joined those points by a continuous curve.
This is the exact paper Khan has thoughfully provided to us...and so it goes. - - - - - - By the way, the question is not the value of "half an eye". It is that the entire visual system including all support functions must be in place before it can serve as a selectable advantage. So not only did chance genetic events cause a "light sensitive patch" to appear from other tissues, but at the same time those same chance events caused a means for such a light sensitive patch to emit some type of response to light, and also a neural pathway to get that response from the patch to some other part of the organism where decisions could be made. And then those same chance events formed some means in that part of the organism to recieve that response to light coming in from the patch, and also coordinated some means to understand what that signal meant and what it should so in response to it. Oh, and during all of this, those new tissues and features will need to be supplied with energy, regulated, and maintenanced. It should be no problem.Upright BiPed
July 30, 2009
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