Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Bait And Switch (Intuition, Part Deux)

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Once upon a time people thought that the sun revolved around the earth because this was intuitive. They were wrong. Once upon a time people thought that the moon revolved around the earth because it was intuitive. They were right. Therefore, intuition can’t be trusted.

Good enough. Evidence eventually confirmed the truth in both cases.

Then along came neo-Darwinism in the 20th century. Intuition and the simple mathematics of combinatorics suggest that random errors and throwing out stuff that doesn’t work can’t account for highly complex information-processing machinery and the information it processes in biological systems. There is no evidence, hard science, or mathematical analysis that can give any credibility to the proposed power of the Darwinian mechanism in this regard.

Intuition suggests that step-by-tiny-step Darwinian gradualism could not have happened, because the intermediates would not be viable. A lizard with proto-feathers on its forelimbs would be a lousy aviator and an equally incompetent runner. We find no such creatures in the fossil record, for obvious reasons. We find long periods of stasis, and the emergence of fully developed creatures with entirely new and innovative capabilities.

So, the Darwinian argument essentially goes as follows: Because human intuition is sometimes wrong, we can ignore intuition, basic reasoning, historical evidence, and the lack of empirical evidence — but only in the case of the claims of the creative power of the Darwinian mechanism.

This is classic bait-and-switch con-artistry: Intuition can be wrong, therefore evidence, the lack thereof, and logic can be ignored or assumed to be wrong as well.

Comments
"80 million years equals a poof" What 80 million years? It was 5 to 10 million years and we have no evidence that it was even that long. And there was nothing before it so as of today it looks like a "poof." Maybe future digs will show something else. "even when modeling has shown that an eye could evolve in a few hundred thousand years" But none have appeared in 540 million years since. I wonder why. Maybe the designer was through with eyes. On to something else. Goes to show that computer modeling maybe out to lunch some times.jerry
July 30, 2009
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I'll add a bit here: controversy rages among evolutionists over how feathers originated. “Fundamentalist fervor,” “vitriolic name-calling,” and “paleontological passion” pervade the debate, states the magazine Science News. One evolutionary biologist, who organized a symposium on feather evolution, confessed: “I never dreamed that any scientific matter could possibly generate such bad personal behavior and such bitterness.” If feathers clearly evolved, why should discussions of the process become so vitriolic? “Feathers are a little too perfect—that’s the problem,” notes Yale University’s Manual of Ornithology—Avian Structure and Function. Feathers give no indication that they ever needed improvement. In fact, the “earliest known fossil feather is so modern-looking as to be indistinguishable from the feathers of birds flying today.” Yet, evolutionary theory teaches that feathers must be the result of gradual, cumulative change in earlier skin outgrowths. Moreover, “feathers could not have evolved without some plausible adaptive value in all of the intermediate steps,” says the Manual. To put it simply, even in theory, evolution could not produce a feather unless each step in a long series of random, inheritable changes in feather structure significantly improved the animal’s chances for survival. Even many evolutionists find it a stretch of the imagination that something as complex and functionally perfect as a feather could arise in such a way. And consider Khan's parting shot at 82: "Storrs can believe whatever he wants." So to a layperson like myself, which group(s) or scientist(s) should I believe? The ones that toe the party line or the ones who follow the evidence or, better yet, come up with new ideas? And here's my two cents on intuition: Intuition has been more formally defined as “knowledge that comes to a person without any conscious remembering or reasoning.” Intuition, it seems, involves a kind of leap—straight from seeing a problem to knowing its solution. Suddenly, we just know an answer or comprehend a situation. That does not mean, though, that intuition is the same thing as an impulse or a desire. But investigation usually shows that intuitions are based on experience, particularly the experience of individuals with great sensitivity.” The individual builds up “a storehouse of memories and impressions,” the Encyclopedia argues, from which the mind may draw a “sudden impression [called] an intuition, or ‘hunch.’” This is why laypeople like myself reject the idea of macroevolution. We intuitively know that all things did not develop from a bowl of primordial soup. We know that if something appears designed (like a bird's feather), and we have prior experience with things being designed (like airplane wings), it's generally a good idea to assume that this feather is, in fact, designed.Barb
July 30, 2009
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Storrs can believe whatever he wants. but the data are not on his side, and he hasn't published a single paper containing evidence to support his opinion.Khan
July 30, 2009
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BA^77, so you are no longer arguing that the protofeathers are made of collagen. the problem with your new argument (lots of things like reptile skin have beta-keratin) is that reptile skin also has alpha keratin. feathers are the only integumentary structure composed solely of beta-keratin. and the Shuvuuia protofeathers had only beta keratin. i'm not saying this is proof that they were feathers. but these data in combination with their branched structure are strong evidence that they were, AND strong evidence against the alternatives. but perhaps i'm talking to an empty chair now that you've taken your ball and gone home.Khan
July 30, 2009
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I love this quote: Storrs Olson, the curator of birds at the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of Natural History, has been a vocal critic of the theory that modern birds evolved from dinosaurs. “The whole notion of feathered dinosaurs is a myth that has been created by ideologues bent on perpetuating the birds-are-dinosaurs theory in the face of all contrary evidence,” he said.bornagain77
July 30, 2009
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Khan, Think about what you are trying to establish; You are trying to rigorously establish some hypothesized fuzz, which is in itself very argumentative as to actually being fuzz, is the beginning of feathers by saying it is proven so by beta-keratin analysis, yet when I show that beta-karatin is found elsewhere: (“As far as the beta-keratin argument goes, beta-keratin is generally found in reptilian skin (in the stratum corneum to supply both rigidity and water-proofing) This is ignored by you,,,you have done nothing in this case except to show your ability to be severely prejudiced to whatever evidence is presented...I've seen the same thing over and over and over again by evolutionists....ANY evidence no matter how dubious is accepted without any self critical analysis, and then when refuted it is quickly forgotten and another piece of crap evidence is offered in its place by the evolutionists...YOU are NOT practicing science khan,,,you are trying to protect you dogmatic belief in evolution no matter how much evidence you have to ignore...Frankly I will not waste my time with you and find it surprising that others on UD have the patience to deal with such shoddy methodology day in and day out.bornagain77
July 30, 2009
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BA^77 please explain to me, in your own words, your argument here. are you still arguing that the proto-feathers were actually collagen (71)?Khan
July 30, 2009
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Read this real slowly Khan, “As far as the beta-keratin argument goes, beta-keratin is generally found in reptilian skin (in the stratum corneum to supply both rigidity and water-proofing) as well as the claws, beaks, and FEATHERS of birds. I really don’t see how this is some sort of distinguishing feature - to distinguish between a collagen-based frill and feather-like structures.”bornagain77
July 30, 2009
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BA^77, if you can't understand why showing that feather-like structures don't have any collagen in them is pretty good evidence that they aren't made of collagen, then I'm sorry.Khan
July 30, 2009
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Khan, Please read the papers I cite before you spout nonsense, I will not correct your every blatant mistake! "As far as the ?-keratin argument goes, ?-keratin is generally found in reptilian skin (in the stratum corneum to supply both rigidity and water-proofing) as well as the claws, beaks, and feathers of birds. I really don't see how this is some sort of distinguishing feature - to distinguish between a collagen-based frill and feather-like structures." We could go round and round but the point is you are not even practicing empirical science nor are you being fair with the evidence,,,,ANY evidence no matter how far fetched is accepted by you without so much as a ripple of doubt to as the sufficiency of natural processes to produce these structures which are far more rich in information content than what man can produce. Yet when staggering evidence is presented to the contrary that evolution can't produce this level of information, all this is just ignored by you as if it means nothing...I would call you retarded but as I have noted before, I actually respect people with mental handicaps and the struggle they have to deal with in this life, whereas you Sir have earned zero respect from me.bornagain77
July 30, 2009
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for jerry, 80 million years equals a poof, even when modeling has shown that an eye could evolve in a few hundred thousand years: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/256/1345/53 yes, i know, it's only a model with a lot of assumptions. please feel free to present any kind of evidence supporting your hypothesis, or even your hypothesis itself.Khan
July 30, 2009
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BA^77, the branched nature of the fossilized filaments are consistent with feathers, not collagen fibers: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7009/full/nature02855.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v410/n6825/full/410200a0.html they have also done biochemical assays on another feathered dinosaur, Shuvuuia, and shown that they have only beta-keratin, which is the primary component of modern feathers. collagen fibers would have collagen.Khan
July 30, 2009
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All the eyes poofed into existence during the Cambrian. No eyes evolved since. If these little guys with eye sensitive spots were the precursor of the eye, why didn't it lead to further eyes? Just a question. And another question, why don't any plants have eyes since as someone said they are photosensitive? Now don't tell me that potatoes have eyes.jerry
July 30, 2009
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Khan, You really have no clue do you? I'm not so sure that these features are "far too long to be collagen fibers". It seems at least plausible to me that the reason why these fibers were not preserved around the feet and hands is because they were likely structural to projections like dorsal frills and other supported skin assemblages. The same thing goes for the Dilong fossil "proto-feathers". http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:JIamT2VZrPgJ:www.detectingdesign.com/PDF%2520Files/Feathered%2520Dinosaurs%2520no%2520more%25202.doc+dilong+collagen+proto+feathers&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a Of note from the article: Storrs Olson, the curator of birds at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of Natural History, has been a vocal critic of the theory that modern birds evolved from dinosaurs. "The whole notion of feathered dinosaurs is a myth that has been created by ideologues bent on perpetuating the birds-are-dinosaurs theory in the face of all contrary evidence," he said. National Geographic magazine and other media have heavily publicized stories about feathered dinosaurs. But contrarian views struggle to get heard, Feduccia said. "One of the primary arguments used to deflect our view is that we are a fringe group," he said. "But if science operates by a majority view, we're in serious trouble. "We are dealing here basically with a faith-based science where the contrarian view is silenced to a large extent by the popular press," he added.bornagain77
July 30, 2009
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bornagain77,
It is funny, but the solution to both of the questions: What is Dark Energy? and What is causing the sudden appearance of fossils in the fossil record? Is answered by the same empirically verifiable entity of specified transcendent information. i.e. we can verify the existence of specified transcendent information through various experiments, and show that it is foundational to “reality” and has qualities of dominion that would be required of it in order to do both things.
I definitely agree on the importance of Specified Transcendent Information, but it seems to me the cosmologists and the Darwinists have made exactly the same amount of progress toward understanding it: none, to be exact. In fact, I would wager that if you were to take a poll, you would find that very few if any had even heard of the concept. Until the cosmologists get on board with STI, I'm going to take a wait-and-see attitude.herb
July 30, 2009
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BA^77 do you have a youtube link to that paper? all kidding aside, please follow the link at 46 and see that it was about Dilong. that's a completely different Baramin than SinosaupteryxKhan
July 30, 2009
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A new Chinese specimen indicates that 'protofeathers' in the Early Cretaceous theropod dinosaur Sinosauropteryx are degraded collagen fibres http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/274/1620/1823.full.pdf excerpt from paper: Alleged primitive feathers or protofeathers in the theropod dinosaur Sinosauropteryx have potentially profound implications concerning feathermorphogenesis, evolution of flight, dinosaur physiology and perhaps even the origin of birds, yet their existence has never been adequately documented. We report on a new specimen of Sinosauropteryx which shows that the integumental structures proposed as protofeathers are the remains of structural fibres that provide toughness. The preservation in the proximal tail area reveals an architecture of closely associated bands offibres parallel to the tail’s long axis, which originate fromthe skin. In adjacentmore exposed areas, the fibres are short, fragmented and disorganized. Fibres preserved dorsal to the neck and back and in the distal part of the tail are the remains of a stiffening system of a frill, peripheral to the body and extending fromthe head to the tip of the tail.These findings are confirmed in the holotype Sinosauropteryx and NIGP 127587. The fibres show a striking similarity to the structure and levels of organization of dermal collagen. The proposal that these fibres are protofeathers is dismissed.bornagain77
July 30, 2009
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Scott, nope, I was just showing that an example of what Gil said didn't exist does. however, as PaulN pointed out, they weren't proto-feathers. so I showed an example in the next post of a dinosaur with proto-feathers.Khan
July 30, 2009
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Napkin @58. I'm sure there are many simple creatures that detect light without eyes. Plants grow toward sunlight. I don't see the connection - conversationally or otherwise.ScottAndrews
July 30, 2009
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Khan: Your post at 42 seemed to be in response to questions over whether such transitionals existed. But if that wasn't the point then I'll chalk that up to my not reading carefully enough.ScottAndrews
July 30, 2009
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Scott, I didn't present it as fact. what makes you think I did?Khan
July 30, 2009
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PaulN, do we then agree that there are fossils of dinosaurs with proto-feathers on their forelimbs?Khan
July 30, 2009
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Scott, --Someone imagines a narrative of how eyes evolved, a little light on the details? Here's some detail on some of the simplest, single celled organisms that lo and behold detect light. http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/Ec&Ev_Distance_learning/MultiCelled/multicellular_text.htmthe_napkin
July 30, 2009
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Khan: The authors themselves admit they only offer a suggestion. Apparently even they didn't consider the evidence conclusive. That's okay - they have you to put the cart before the horse and turn their suggestion into reality. I think we all know how skeptical you can be of suggestions based on evidence when they don't suit your ideology. But this one works for you, so you'll give it the benefit of the doubt.ScottAndrews
July 30, 2009
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Frankly Khan, I don't care if you want to believe in a lie, all I care is that you try to come on this site and present shady evidence as absolute fact. You clearly are not a scientist, though you may imagine yourself as such, and frankly you make me sick with your grand sweeping statements for evolution on such crappy evidence. If you want to be scientific then "semi-prove" evolution empirically by passing the fitness test. You would then falsify the what appears to be the true principle for biology: Genetic Entropy (though this still would leave you with a cloud of Theistic evolution to deal with) I find the principle of Genetic Entropy to be the true principle for biological adaptations which directly contradicts unguided Darwinian evolution. As well, unlike Darwinian evolution which can claim no primary principles in science to rests its foundation on, Genetic Entropy can rests its foundation in science directly on the twin pillars of the Second Law of Thermodynamics and on the Law of Conservation Of Information(LCI). The first phase of Genetic Entropy, any life-form will go through, holds all sub-speciation adaptations away from a parent species, which increase fitness/survivability to a new environment for the sub-species, will always come at a cost of the functional information in the parent species genome. This is, for the vast majority of times, measurable as loss of genetic diversity in genomes. This phase of Genetic Entropy is verified, in one line of evidence, by the fact all population genetics' studies show a consistent loss of genetic diversity from a parent species for all sub-species that have adapted away, (Maciej Giertych). This fact is also well testified to by plant breeders and animal breeders who know there are strict limits to the amount of variability you can expect when breeding for any particular genetic trait. The second line of evidence, this phase of the principle of Genetic Entropy is being rigorously obeyed, is found in the fact the "Fitness Test" against a parent species of bacteria has never been violated by any sub-species bacteria of a parent bacteria. For a broad outline of the "Fitness test", required to be passed to show a violation of the principle of Genetic Entropy, please see this following video and article: Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - "The Fitness Test" - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BwWpRSYgOE Testing the Biological Fitness of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria - 2008 http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/darwin-at-drugstore This "fitness test" fairly conclusively demonstrates "optimal information" is encoded onto a "parent" bacteria by God, and has not been added to by any "teleological" methods in the beneficial adaptations of the sub-species of bacteria. Thus the inference to Genetic Entropy, i.e. that God has not specifically moved within nature in a teleological manner to increase the functional information of a genome once He has created the parent species genome, still holds as true for the principle of Genetic Entropy. Though I am surely no expert on the math of LCI, and may be in error as to how strict the limit for conserved information now is, it seems readily apparent to me, even with Dembski's and Mark's strict definition of LCI in place, to conclusively demonstrate God has moved within nature, in a teleological manner to provide the sub-species with additional functional information over the "optimal" genome of the parent species, the "fitness test" must still be passed by the sub-species against the parent species. If the fitness test is shown to be passed, then the new molecular function, which provides the more robust survivability for the sub-species, must be calculated to its additional Functional Information Bits (Fits) it gained in the beneficial adaptation, and then be found to be greater than 140 Fits of functional information. 140 Fits is what has now been generously set by Kirk Durston as the maximum limit of Functional Information which can reasonably be expected to be generated by totally natural processes over the entire age of the universe. This fitness test, and calculation, must be done to rigorously establish materialistic processes did not generate the functional information (Fits), and to rigorously establish teleological processes were indeed involved in the increase of Functional Complexity of the beneficially adapted sub-species. The second and final phase of Genetic Entropy, outlined by John Sanford in his book Genetic Entropy & the Mystery of the Genome, is when "slightly detrimental" mutations, which are far below the power of natural selection to remove from a genome, slowly build up in a species/kind over long periods of time and lead to Genetic Meltdown. The first effect to be noticed, for the Genetic Entropy principle, is the loss of morphological variability of individual sub-species of a kind. This loss of morphological variability first takes place for the extended lineages of sub-species within a kind, and increases with time, and then gradually works in to the more ancient lineages of the kind, as the "mutational load" slowly builds up over time (A Cambrian Peak in Morphological Variation Within Trilobite Species; Webster). The final phase, of Genetic Entropy, is when the entire spectrum of the species of a kind slowly start to succumb to "Genetic Meltdown", and to go extinct in the fossil record. The occurs because the mutational load, of the slowly accumulating "slightly detrimental mutations" in the genomes, becomes too great for each individual species of the kind to bear. From repeated radiations from ancient lineages in the fossil record, and current adaptive radiation studies, The ancient lineages of a kind appear to have the most "robust genomes" and are thus most resistant to "Genetic Meltdown". All this consistent evidence makes perfect sense from the Genetic Entropy standpoint, in that Genetic Entropy holds God created each parent kind with a "optimal genome" for all future sub-speciation events.---- My overwhelming intuition, from all the evidence I've seen so far, and from Theology, is this; Once God creates a parent kind, the parent kind is encoded with "optimal information" for the specific purpose to which God has created the kind to exist, and God has chosen, in His infinite wisdom, to strictly limit the extent to which He will act within nature to "evolve" the sub-species of the parent kind to greater heights of functional complexity. Thus the Biblically compatible principle of Genetic Entropy is found to be in harmony with the second law of thermodynamics and with the formal proof of the Law Of Conservation of Information which has now been elucidated by Dr. William Dembski and Dr. Robert Marks. - etc...etc.. Khan ..... until you pass the fitness test and show a gain of functional information, you are just blowing hot air.bornagain77
July 30, 2009
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Oh, I see that Scott Andrews elaborated on my point before I could make it. Thanks Scott.PaulN
July 30, 2009
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Khan,
is gliding the same thing as flying to you?
Not at all. But according to this: Microraptor – the dinosaur that flew like a biplane Some scientists believe they flew like biplanes. Also, true protofeathers (the fluffy stuff you see growing on baby birds) or even fully developed feathers on a T-rex would be considerably less detrimental to movement given the actual mass of the creature. Furthermore, it's not unusual to find creatures with specialized equipment according to their specific environments. Gil is right in saying that they would have been lousy fliers and runners, however this does not preclude the option that they could have lived in trees or some other situational elevated environment. If the microraptor was a ground dweller, then of course you wouldn't expect to see any in the fossil record. If anything I see this catering to specific design than I do toward a stepwise process, especially when you consider how the raptors would have to transition from living on the ground to living in trees- as the timing for the development of feathered flight/gliding capabilities would have to happen almost instantly alongside the adoption of an elevated habitat.PaulN
July 30, 2009
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Scott,
Chinese scientists wonder out loud if it lived in trees and flew? Good enough - throw it on the pile!
you're not showing much understanding of the scientific process. do you really think the quotation from wikipedia captures the process and evidence that led them to propose this? why not at least read the original article:http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6921/full/nature01342.html and thanks to you for proving my point again.Khan
July 30, 2009
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Khan, A quotation from G.K. Chesterton: "Doubts About Darwinism" on evolution of horns and wings: It is very far from obvious that the first rudimentary suggestion of a horn, the first faint thickening which might lead through countless generations to the growth of a horn, would be of any particular use as a horn. And we must suppose, on the Darwinian hypothesis, that the hornless animal reached his horn through unthinkable gradations of what were, for all practical purposes, hornless animal. Why should one rhinoceros be so benevolent a Futurist as to start an improvement that could only help some much later rhinoceros to survive? And why on earth should its mere foreshadowing help the earlier rhinoceros to survive? This thesis can only explain variations when they discreetly refrain from varying very much. To the real riddles that arrest the eye, it has no answer that can satisfy the intelligence. For any child or man with his eyes open, I imagine, there is no creature that really calls for an answer, like a living riddle, so clearly as the bat. But if you will call up the Darwinian vision, of thousands of intermediary creatures with webbed feet that are not yet wings, their survival will seem incredible. A mouse can run, and survive; and a flitter-mouse can fly, and survive. But a creature that cannot yet fly, and can no longer run, ought obviously to have perished, by the very Darwinian doctrine which has to assume that he survived.Mikulas
July 30, 2009
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I like how it said, "Optimal design of birds is consistent with creation." That meaning? Birds are designed to have feathers and fly? What about penguins? They have wings and small feathers but can't fly. Are you going to tell me penguins are not related? Or did What about ostriches/emus? They look like birds, run really really fast, and have sharp claws on their back feet. WEIRD! Just like that raptor I saw in Jurassic Park.the_napkin
July 30, 2009
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