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Bait And Switch (Intuition, Part Deux)

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Once upon a time people thought that the sun revolved around the earth because this was intuitive. They were wrong. Once upon a time people thought that the moon revolved around the earth because it was intuitive. They were right. Therefore, intuition can’t be trusted.

Good enough. Evidence eventually confirmed the truth in both cases.

Then along came neo-Darwinism in the 20th century. Intuition and the simple mathematics of combinatorics suggest that random errors and throwing out stuff that doesn’t work can’t account for highly complex information-processing machinery and the information it processes in biological systems. There is no evidence, hard science, or mathematical analysis that can give any credibility to the proposed power of the Darwinian mechanism in this regard.

Intuition suggests that step-by-tiny-step Darwinian gradualism could not have happened, because the intermediates would not be viable. A lizard with proto-feathers on its forelimbs would be a lousy aviator and an equally incompetent runner. We find no such creatures in the fossil record, for obvious reasons. We find long periods of stasis, and the emergence of fully developed creatures with entirely new and innovative capabilities.

So, the Darwinian argument essentially goes as follows: Because human intuition is sometimes wrong, we can ignore intuition, basic reasoning, historical evidence, and the lack of empirical evidence — but only in the case of the claims of the creative power of the Darwinian mechanism.

This is classic bait-and-switch con-artistry: Intuition can be wrong, therefore evidence, the lack thereof, and logic can be ignored or assumed to be wrong as well.

Comments
This has taken a bizarre turn. The willful acts of intelligent humans are all natural? The space shuttle is natural? Chernobyl was natural? My PC and cell phone? There are no artificial ingredients in food, because they are all natural? And if we classify all intelligent acts as natural, what is the objection to ID, or do we draw some arbitrary line around that?ScottAndrews
August 5, 2009
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I forgot to claim that I am an "intelligent agent."Adel DiBagno
August 5, 2009
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Every willful act by an intelligent agent defies the natural laws...
I am "willfully" typing this comment. What "natural laws" am I defying?Adel DiBagno
August 5, 2009
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Diff: Cf the thread here, and then tell my why the explanatory filter [cf also here] -- specifically, not with dismissive rhetoric -- is a "useless shibboleth." And, since the very term you so impatiently use was a case where in an ancient civil war in Israel, men from the "wrong side" were detected by how they mispronounced a word, it seems that functionality based filters have long been in use in the real world. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 5, 2009
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StephenB @ 259:
First, you will notice he uses the phrase, “as we see here,” referring to the way ID uses its own paradigm, which of course is expressed as law/chance/agency.
I took him to be referring to the fact that persons creating posts on this board demonstrate the actions of intelligent agents - "as we see here."
By definition, ID defines “natural” to mean either law or chance, which means that, in that context, intelligence cannot be natural.
You are correct to observe that I don't find many of ID's conceptual shibboleths (such as the useless trichotomy of the EF) of much merit. And I don't share your fondness for arriving at conclusions that are inserted into your reasoning "by definition" at the outset - more philosophy by dictionary. The above simply reduces to "by definition...intelligence cannot be natural."
Second, you will notice that he used the phrase “willful act,” which, again, must be characterized as “agency,” and cannot, therefore be a natural phenomenon. Nature, defined exclusively as law and chance...
More assertion by definition, forcing a mistaken conclusion (agency is necessarily not natural). Nor did I refer to "free acts of will," a phrase in which the conclusions you wish to attain are already carefully pre-positioned. BTW, Stephen, don't forget to return to my comment here: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/the-principle-of-methodological-counterintuitiveness/#comment-328576 I'd still be interested in your respond to this: What I was hoping you would provide is an examplar of an argument within evolutionary biology that is defective specifically due to a failure (you claim a motivated failure) to observe the “rules of right reason”, as you submit above. I’m not aware of any posit with evolutionary biology that hinges upon necessary violations of causality, nor of the law of non-contradiction, nor of your postulate that both the universe or our minds are rational, etc. Yet you have submitted that greater problems arise within evolutionary theory due to such failures than to deficiencies of evidence. Even were your suggestion correct that Darwinists are motivated to embrace counter-intuitive theories and findings, it fails to provide a specific example of the impact of such a failure of “right reason” within evolutionary theory. (From the principle of counterintuitiveness thread)Diffaxial
August 5, 2009
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----Jerry: “Every willful act by an intelligent agent defies the natural laws as we see here by most commenters ----Diffaxial: “This only works because you assume your conclusions, namely that human beings, human behavior, and human intelligence are not natural phenomena.” No, actually Jerry is on solid ground here on two counts. First, you will notice he uses the phrase, “as we see here,” referring to the way ID uses its own paradigm, which of course is expressed as law/chance/agency. By definition, ID defines “natural” to mean either law or chance, which means that, in that context, intelligence cannot be natural. When Darwinists intrude the words natural or supernatural into the discussion, neither of which has ever been satisfactorily defined, it is their way of displacing ID’s well-defined paradigm with something that has no meaning for either side, thereby consciously reframing the issue in such a way that ID cannot make its case. It would be the equivalent of asking the Darwinist to argue for undirected macro-evolution while refusing to allow him the use of words like “random variation” or “natural selection.” Second, you will notice that he used the phrase “willful act,” which, again, must be characterized as "agency," and cannot, therefore be a natural phenomenon. Nature, defined exclusively as law and chance, leaves no room for the willful act of an intelligent agent acting on and influencing nature. Indeed, as a materialist, you must, to the extent that you define it, assume that only nature can act on nature, meaning that you must reject all free acts of the will as an "illusion."StephenB
August 4, 2009
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An aside: Dark matter is necessary for life. Without dark matter no stars would form. No stars, no elements, no life. We need all those wimps floating around so that we can debate what those wimps might be. Apparently macho doesn't cut it in the world of dark matter.jerry
August 4, 2009
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vjtorley, Thanks for the link. Myself I think they are making much ado about nothing,,,for one, since we know for a fact that every other constant is exceedingly finely tuned, it is reasonable to presume the universe is flat and to work our calculations from there to derive "the amount" of dark energy, Especially since flat will be "the sweet spot" i.e. why should we presuppose the fine tuning to be otherwise given the staggering level of precision we see in the other constants? Only a materialistic presupposition would demand that it should be otherwise... As well, Another solution for solving there parameter uncertainty may be found if someone finds a anthropic necessity for the universe to be flat.. As well, the only plausible solution for what "Dark Energy" actually is, is Transcendent Specified Information, That is to say the transcendent information demonstrated in quantum entanglement is the only known entity which has the capability to exercise dominion in such a fashion we are seeking solution to... Ditto for quantum teleportation and Dark Matter.bornagain77
August 4, 2009
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"This cite says 22 million years." I am willing to leave it at 22 million years. I believe they said 32 million years but maybe one of them was off by 10 million years. It is no big deal. Both are incredibly long for speciation to occur, that is the ones that cannot interbreed.jerry
August 4, 2009
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Bornagain77 You might be interested in having a look at this article: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327191.600-dark-energy-may-disguise-shape-of-universe.html It looks like we know a lot less about the universe than we thought we did.vjtorley
August 4, 2009
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Here is a link that cites to your Prager & Wilson research This cite says 22 million years.Jehu
August 4, 2009
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Jerry:
Would you be willing to let this defense be put into biology books and into articles criticizing ID. That we cannot claim anything is due to intelligence because intelligence is just an illusion and all acts are determined by basic forces. I am willing to let that get into the textbooks and let the students decide if it is nonsense or not.
That doesn't follow. It doesn't follow from the fact that human beings, their actions, and their intelligence are natural phenomena that they are illusions. Stars, planets, waterfalls, wings (and flight), brains (and thinking) are all natural phenomena (the last also with grounding in cultural and individual histories), one no more an illusion than the next. It is only when you impose the unwarranted and unintelligible claim that intelligence is necessarily disembodied and of non-natural origins that the notion of illusion arises - i.e., only when you assume your conclusions.Diffaxial
August 4, 2009
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"This only works because you assume your conclusions, namely that human beings, human behavior, and human intelligence are not natural phenomena." Whoa! Would you be willing to let this defense be put into biology books and into articles criticizing ID. That we cannot claim anything is due to intelligence because intelligence is just an illusion and all acts are determined by basic forces. I am willing to let that get into the textbooks and let the students decide if it is nonsense or not. I can see it now. It is no longer "it only looks like it was designed" would be replaced by "it only looks like it was an intelligence who designed life but there is no such thing as intelligence." And what does that make your comments here? The output of basic forces of natural laws. I may give you that since your comments do not seem to reflect any intelligence that I understand but a reflexive response of some algorithm that maybe originated in the Matrix.jerry
August 4, 2009
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So are your claims.
Nice one, UB. He had that coming.herb
August 4, 2009
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Jerry @ 240:
Every willful act by an intelligent agent defies the natural laws as we see here by most commenters. So the natural laws are being violated all the time in our world and can be analyzed using the principles of science, logic and a rational mind. It is done all the time. So those who support ID are actually practicing better science than those who are anti ID.
This only works because you assume your conclusions, namely that human beings, human behavior, and human intelligence are not natural phenomena.Diffaxial
August 4, 2009
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So are your claims.Upright BiPed
August 4, 2009
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The sack is empty.Diffaxial
August 4, 2009
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Diffaxial, You haven't been desperately trying to imply additional meaning into Jerry's words to suit yourself? Even though Jerry's comments were clear in his original post? And after repeating your insinuation throughout, you were corrected and given context by both Jerry and myself repeatedly (starting at 157 and continuing through 236) only to have you repeat them yet again. You dear poor man - how it must sting to be misrepresented that way (after all, you were simply repeating his words right?) - - - - - - - - I am completely comfortable in having any reader peruse our conversation starting with your post at 156 followed by my reply at 173 and continuing through you last entry. Only humility prevents me from reccomending it. - - - - - - - - - Isn't it odd that a materialist would come to an ID webforum, obstensibly to hold his own, yet these are the questions and comments he wilfully chooses to ignore. He doesn't mention them even once - only to end with a comical claim of being misrepresented:
"The largest body of observations in biology can be explained by the assumption that organisms can change over time, and that Life exist by virtue of selection at the level of information." "Material causes, as we observe them, cannot form a symbol system, and there are no physical properties that can cause the sequencing of nucleotides inside genetic information. The only cause as we observe it today, which is capable of producing the evidence, is the act of an agent. These things are not even in question." "If the ability of chance and necessity to sequence nucleotides was confirmed, then materialism could have succeeded, but it was not confirmed, and therefore has been falsified by both the evidence against it as well as the positive affirmation of design."
...and of course:
"What empirical lab results has science used confirm that Life began by chance?"
Upright BiPed
August 4, 2009
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Upright @ 236: Since you have devolved to asserting that I am lying to make a point, I'll be brief. YOU said:
You suggest that ID asserts a cause that is “anomalous relative to natural law” and may even be a “one-off” event. This is also true, but the direction of your comments is ignorant of the facts.
In short, you affirmed that ID asserts a cause that is anomalous relative to natural law. I subsequently summarized your statement:
As you affirm above, ID postulates events that may be “anomalous” with respect to physical law, as above.
This is a reasonable (and certainly good faith) paraphrase of your own statement, and you did indeed so affirm. You now state about the preceding:
“As you affirm above, ID postulates events that may be “anomalous” with respect to physical law, as above.”
This is an out and out lie. You are now lying to make your point. ID does not posit anything that broke any Laws. Being an anomaly to physical laws is hardly the same as breaking them.
However, I said nothing about "breaking laws." I used Jerry's term throughout, "anomalous," reasonably paraphrased your statement, and accurately reported your affirmation. So your scarlet-faced accusation is mistaken. Let's see if you can sack-up and admit that.Diffaxial
August 4, 2009
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Hi jerry, Thanks for mentioning Prager and Wilson. Thg egrants werer ferefering to the time that it would take for hybrid inviability to develop between the populations. Prager and Wilson showed that some groups of organisms develop hybrid inviability over much longer periods of time than others. They mention birds and amphibians as examples. However, they also noted that some groups can develop hybrid inviability much faster, notably mammals, which seem to require only 2 to 3 million years.Dave Wisker
August 4, 2009
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Hi Jerry, ID has no problem with anything Fisher did that was based on science and logic. So ID supporters would also support the work of Fisher and Fisher’s approximation So what? I was simply giving Mr Nakashima a population genetics equation that could fit on a t-shirt.Dave Wisker
August 4, 2009
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Dave Wisker, ID has no problem with anything Fisher did that was based on science and logic. So ID supporters would also support the work of Fisher and Fisher's approximation. In fact they support all the work done by evolutionary biology. That is not an issue. What they do not support is the conclusions often made that is not supported by the data. And frequently these conclusions have metaphysical implications. By the way, it was 32 million years not 23 million years. I had a dyslexic moment as I remembered incorrectly but a friend corrected me. The Grants referred to the works of some researchers who were named Prager and Wilson. So maybe you should write the Grants and ask for the cite. It was in a presentation they made at Stanford. Apparently none of the finch "species" of the Galapagos are really separate species because they can all interbreed if done artificially and many do so naturally under the right circumstances. They estimated that the finches have been on the Galapagos for three million years and it would take on average 32 million years of divergence before forming species that could not interbreed. As I said, write to them for the cite. If you have access to their works, it is probably in the bibliography somewhere.jerry
August 4, 2009
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" then argue that given the absence of a model, given the invocation of an unknown and unknowable designer, given the possibility of unpredictable one-off events, and given the acceptance of “anomalies” vis natural law, ANY empirical finding may be reconciled with ID. Therefore no dispositive empirical predictions are possible," How many times do you have to be told that this is a nonsense argument. You take an honest and accurate assessment, add your non sequiturs and then proclaim the gibberish you add as gibberish. What a thinker. ID supporters practices science, use the tools of science, do the same experiments as other scientists, examines the same data etc. ID supporters just comes to some different conclusions occasionally because they use a more expansive set possible explanations. One that includes the possibility of willful actions by an intelligence. Every willful act by an intelligent agent defies the natural laws as we see here by most commenters. So the natural laws are being violated all the time in our world and can be analyzed using the principles of science, logic and a rational mind. It is done all the time. So those who support ID are actually practicing better science than those who are anti ID. When you cut out your childish behavior and start acting like an adult, then maybe you could learn something. Till you do, you support our position with your tiresome distortions. If you had a legitimate argument, you would use them. When you resort to these bogus approaches, you are admitting defeat.jerry
August 4, 2009
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Mr Nakashima, Mr Joseph, Yes, the E=mc^2 of evolution! If only population genetics had a similar inequality that fit on a t-shirt There's always Fisher's Fundamental Theorem of Natural Selection, which can be approximated by something like this: deltaw ~ Va/w Where w = mean fitness, and Va is genetic varianceDave Wisker
August 4, 2009
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Hi jerry, Any luck on getting that citation for the Grants claiming it takes 23 million years for one species to appear?Dave Wisker
August 4, 2009
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Mr Bornagain77, Your comment is awaiting moderation.Nakashima
August 4, 2009
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Diff,
"Jerry also above affirms that ID has no model"
No model for what? Evolution? Why does ID need a model for something it does not concern? Please explain that in detail. Did you simply miss the part where I said "Honestly, when are you going to get it? ID isn’t about evolution." Did you simply forget? It has been said to you many times.
"I then argue that given the absence of a model"
An absent model of what, Diff? Evolution? Did you let slip your memory yet again, or this simply a matter of intellectual convenience?
"given the invocation of an unknown and unknowable designer"
Unknowable by what? The evidence? Unknowable by the evidence? How does that change the intractable evidence that chance and necessity did not sequence the nucleotides that make life possible? Please answer that in detail.
"given the possibility of unpredictable one-off events, and given the acceptance of “anomalies” vis natural law"
One-off events like what Diff? Like the Big Bang? You mean anomalies like the Big Bang?
"Therefore no dispositive empirical predictions are possible."
Dispositive empirical facts are possible, Diff, but there aren't any. In fact, the opposite is true as we look at causal mechanisms and how they operate. Does that matter? Does it matter that chance and necessity cannot organize a symbol system, when it is a symbol system that must be explained? Does it concern you in the least that there are no physical forces that can sequence DNA for function, when the sequencing of DNA for function is what must be explained?
"Your choice of big bang theory to make a rhetorical point is a fortunate one. BB theory exemplifies a scientific theory possessing the characteristics that ID lacks (as established above), characteristics that account for its success"
My choice of the Big Bang was spot on. Both the BB and ID hold the same position within the evidence: both have been confirmed by new empirical information observed as it exists today.
"Long before its empirical confirmation, the purveyors of big bang theory devised a detailed model of the process."
The Big Bang was not confirmed by a model Diff, it was confirmed by the recognition of new empirical evidence, observed today as an artifact of an event that happed in the past. Exactly like ID.
"Gamow and others operated from the assumption physical events followed lawfully from the big bang"
Followed lawfully from the Big Bang. Gamow operated from an assumption that was empirically verifiable by basically anyone who ever lived to ponder the question. The world operates in a law-like manner. And, where did those Law exist prior to the Big Bang? Did they come into existence at the moment of Big Bang. But IS the Big Bang a part of those Laws, diff?
"As you affirm above, ID postulates events that may be “anomalous” with respect to physical law, as above."
This is an out and out lie. You are now lying to make your point. ID does not posit anything that broke any Laws. Being an anomaly to physical laws is hardly the same as breaking them. The existence of a red plastic ball is an anomaly to physical laws, but does not break them. The physical matter within a red plastic ball acts within the Laws, but there is nothing in those Laws that says that the matter should form a sphere and dye itself red. That takes something outside of mere physical laws, does it not? Do you know what that something is? And by the way, the acceptance of the Big Bang does not rely on whether it posits why the entire universe once appeared as an unspeakable ball of energy, no more than ID relys on positing how design became instantiated into matter. The value of their conclusions is based on what is known, not on what is unknowable.
"In light of physical law, the big bang model made quite specific empirical predictions amenable to meaningful confirmation by means of specific observations."
Earth to Diffaxial: the over-arching position within the design hypothesis is that not all things are explained by chance and necessity. Guess what: We have the empirical facts in hand that the position is correct. And where does that evidence come from? Oddly enough, right at the point where inanimate material becomes animated into living tissue.
"Because ID theory postulates and unknown causal agent, has no model, and accepts “anomalies” vis physical laws, its “predictions” are unconstrained. Unconstrained predictions are not predictions at all, in the scientific sense."
Simply repeating yourself has no inherent value, and it changes nothing of the empirical evidence.
"Those empirical predictions were confirmed. Had they failed to be confirmed, big bang theory would have been rejected.
If the ability of chance and necessity to sequence nucleotides was confirmed, then materialism could have succeeded, but it was not confirmed, and therefore has been falsified by both the evidence against it as well as the positive affirmation of design.
"ID can devise no such dispositive tests"
ID would be falsified the moment that materialism passed the test, but it didn't. The inability to confirm materialism by the evidence has been met by the affirmation that only an act of agency can explain the evidence at hand.
"Nor do ID “researchers” actually do empirical research. (Rummaging around others research findings and “reanalyzing” others data is not empirical research)."
Einstein created his masterpiece without even access to a lab. Crick and Watson played detectives with virtually all of their data coming from elsewhere. Did you not know these facts?
“The balance of your post vis historical inference beautifully exemplifies the assumption of one’s conclusions.”
Scientism 101: When your position assumes an answer without empirical observation, then refuses to acknowledge evidence to the contrary, defend yourself by suggesting that you opponents have assumed their conclusions.Upright BiPed
August 4, 2009
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Nak, It seems to me you are a bowl of mush philosophically speaking,,,You refuse to commit solidly to any philosophical basis (though you actually defend materialism tooth and nail whether you admit it or not) and thus that renders your postulations as meaningless as a bowl of Jello in regards to drawing concrete solutions from science for you claim to have no basis from which to work. But of course you will fail to see this as well! What is the point of exposing your lies if you don't even have enough honesty to be honest with yourself! Atheism - A World Of Lies - Evanescence http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GeIOkSinKMbornagain77
August 4, 2009
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Mr Bornagain77, If you would like to continue discussng science and its variations, I am happy to do so. For example, I just read that string theory has had a 'stop the presses!' moment by actually making useful predictions about an aspect of high temperature superconductivity. Truly, there is hope for us all! On the other hand, if you will continue to call me a liar, and the confront me with the overwhelming evidence of your ability to cut and paste, I will simply ignore you. That was the most inept and embarrassing altar call I have seen on this blog. I told you I don't fit your preconception of materialist philosophy, but you rail against it anyway. By all means, you can continue to witness to my Evil Twin Skippy, I'll just nip out to Starbucks while you two sort it out, ok? If you had actually wanted to talk with me, not Skippy the Arch-materialist, you would have done well to notice that I don't have a problem with an Almighty, Transcendent God. My problem, if you will, is that I am aware of a God so Trancsendent, so well self-concealed (per the verse I quoted above) that it is devilishly hard to tell His universe from a universe without His Presence at all. Transcendence isn't the problem. Immanence is the problem.Nakashima
August 4, 2009
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Upright @ 232 (and 233): A little digging through your response results in some efficiencies: I said: "ID’s assertion that an entirely unknown designer effected changes... You reply: "This is completely true..." I said: "...that are anomalous relative to natural laws and may be one-off events..." You reply: "This is also true." Jerry also above affirms that ID has no model. Therefore you entirely affirm the premises of my assertion. I then argue that given the absence of a model, given the invocation of an unknown and unknowable designer, given the possibility of unpredictable one-off events, and given the acceptance of "anomalies" vis natural law, ANY empirical finding may be reconciled with ID. Therefore no dispositive empirical predictions are possible. Your choice of big bang theory to make a rhetorical point is a fortunate one. BB theory exemplifies a scientific theory possessing the characteristics that ID lacks (as established above), characteristics that account for its success: - Long before its empirical confirmation, the purveyors of big bang theory devised a detailed model of the process. As we have established above, ID has no model. - Gamow and others operated from the assumption physical events followed lawfully from the big bang. As you affirm above, ID postulates events that may be "anomalous" with respect to physical law, as above. - In light of physical law, the big bang model made quite specific empirical predictions amenable to meaningful confirmation by means of specific observations. Because ID theory postulates and unknown causal agent, has no model, and accepts "anomalies" vis physical laws, its "predictions" are unconstrained. Unconstrained predictions are not predictions at all, in the scientific sense. - Those empirical predictions were confirmed. Had they failed to be confirmed, big bang theory would have been rejected. ID can devise no such dispositive tests, for the reasons cited above. Nor do ID "researchers" actually do empirical research. (Rummaging around others research findings and "reanalyzing" others data is not empirical research). The balance of your post vis historical inference beautifully exemplifies the assumption of one's conclusions.
Your meaning here is as clear as a bell: ID is not science.
Exactly.Diffaxial
August 4, 2009
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