Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Bait And Switch (Intuition, Part Deux)

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Once upon a time people thought that the sun revolved around the earth because this was intuitive. They were wrong. Once upon a time people thought that the moon revolved around the earth because it was intuitive. They were right. Therefore, intuition can’t be trusted.

Good enough. Evidence eventually confirmed the truth in both cases.

Then along came neo-Darwinism in the 20th century. Intuition and the simple mathematics of combinatorics suggest that random errors and throwing out stuff that doesn’t work can’t account for highly complex information-processing machinery and the information it processes in biological systems. There is no evidence, hard science, or mathematical analysis that can give any credibility to the proposed power of the Darwinian mechanism in this regard.

Intuition suggests that step-by-tiny-step Darwinian gradualism could not have happened, because the intermediates would not be viable. A lizard with proto-feathers on its forelimbs would be a lousy aviator and an equally incompetent runner. We find no such creatures in the fossil record, for obvious reasons. We find long periods of stasis, and the emergence of fully developed creatures with entirely new and innovative capabilities.

So, the Darwinian argument essentially goes as follows: Because human intuition is sometimes wrong, we can ignore intuition, basic reasoning, historical evidence, and the lack of empirical evidence — but only in the case of the claims of the creative power of the Darwinian mechanism.

This is classic bait-and-switch con-artistry: Intuition can be wrong, therefore evidence, the lack thereof, and logic can be ignored or assumed to be wrong as well.

Comments
----Diffaxial: “This response again ignores particular important distinctions that I’ve taken pains to draw vis the scope and applicability of different senses of the word “natural.” Those distinctions are well-enough stated above” From my point of view, that is a problem. You have used the word “natural” in a multitude of ways without ever really defining it. It would help if you would assume the burden of that task. -----"You stated, “You have established no evolutionary pathway to complexity.” I took “evolutionary pathway to complexity” to denote a pathway of descent along which human cognition and human agency emerged. Were that construal accurate, then to state that “no evolutionary pathway to complexity” has been established would stand as a denial of common descent. Common descent could very easily have occurred without naturalistic forces being solely responsible for the appearance of consciousness. ----“However, you say, “I have no problem with common descent.” Ordinary parlance would take that as a statement of acknowledgement of the reality of common descent. If that is your intention, then “evolutionary pathway to complexity” denotes something else, and I retract the above statement, as it was based upon misconstrual.” To be as clear as possible, I accept common ancestry as a fact and allow for the strong possibility of universal common descent, while holding some reservations. Call that open-minded posture delusional if you like. However, the term “evolutionary pathway to complexity,” as I use it, implies much more, namely that purposeless, undirected, gradualistic forces, as set forth in the neo-Darwinist paradigm, could have ushered in the transition from OOL to consciousness in 4 billion years. Random variation, natural selection and other naturalistic forces can do many things, but there is no evidence at all that they have done that or could ever do that. Quite the contrary, there is no evidence at all that they did it. That isn’t delusional; it is fact. If you want to challenge the point, you have the floor and all relevant evidence will be accepted without fuss. ----“I have done no such thing.” Indeed above I repeated “nowhere do I claim that human agency and intelligence (human beings mulling, designing, negotiating, etc.) don’t exist or are illusions. Rather, I claim that these features of human agency…have a natural (and cultural) history, and it is indeed this history that renders these features of human cognition and agency genuine.” That doesn’t really solve the problem, though, does it? The problem is this: Are agent causes different from natural causes? I don’t want to misrepresent your position, but if you are declaring that agency is real but indistinguishable from non-agency, then you are playing with words. If agency is real then it is not a function of natural forces; if it merely one of many natural causes, then it is, indeed, an illusion. You can’t have it both ways. Agency is either a different kind of cause than a natural cause or it isn’t. ----“This framework permits investigation of the phenomenon of volition from the vantages of comparative psychology (again particularly with great apes), developmental psychology, neurobiology, the emergence of new cultural representations of self, etc. In constrast, theories of “volition” that call upon a “non-material intelligence” posit a volition that hangs there with no content, no moving parts, no history, no real relationship to the human brain, and no explanatory power other than that derived “by definition.” Positing a non-material intelligence, mind, soul, etc. solves the problem of volition and “free will” by fiat only, and is a “theory” without content, in my view.” Where did you get the words “non-material” from my posts? In any case, if what you just wrote means anything at all, you should be able to apply it. So, lets’ go back to the design inference, in which you come home and find that your living room appears to have been ransacked. If a rainstorm or tornado or some other natural force caused the destruction, then those forces cannot say no to their own momentum. If, on the other hand, a burglar caused the damage, then he/she can either choose to commit the act or not. Further, the violator might well leave signals that a human agency caused the damage. You may well, for example, notice that some drawers were left open or detect some other indication that human intelligence was present. So, the question should be obvious enough. Is there a significant distinction between a wind torn house and one which was ransacked by a burglar? Can you draw an infernce to the agent cause or not? So far, you have indicated that both causes are natural and that no design inference to agency could be made because, in your judgment, we cannot posit agency apart from natural forces. Surely, you can understand how untenable your position is when exposed to the light of day by a concrete example. Again, I call your attention to the competing world views in action. Man [A] releases a ball, and natural forces cause it to fall to the ground. Man [B], through an act of the will, interrupts the descent in progress and snatches the ball out of thin air. Are you saying that both events were caused by natural causes? I say that [A] is a function of natural causes and [B] is a function of agency. To say, as you do, that both are natural causes, is to make a mockery of the human agent's capacity to be his/her own cause apart from nature.StephenB
August 7, 2009
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"Amusing, given that this phrase (nor anything resembling it) doesn’t appear in any of my posts above." Ugh. Try, "Amusing, given that neither this phrase nor anything resembling it appear in any of my posts above."Diffaxial
August 7, 2009
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StephenB @ 318:
One can legitimately define anything for the sake of argument so that everyone can follow what is being said. One need not to prove the existence of the elements contained in that definition.
In your first post in this thread you stated:
Second, you will notice that [Jerry] used the phrase “willful act,” which, again, must be characterized as “agency,” and cannot, therefore be a natural phenomenon. Nature, defined exclusively as law and chance, leaves no room for the willful act of an intelligent agent acting on and influencing nature.
The above reproduces the first appearance (in this thread) of your employment of reasoning derived from the "chance/necessity/agency" trichotomy. As anyone can see, it cannot be characterized as a definition offered for the purpose of enabling others to follow what is said. Rather, it proceeds directly to a particular conclusion (paraphrased: law and chance leave no room for agency; therefore agency cannot be a natural phenomenon). This is the very conclusion that I characterized Jerry as assuming. Now you have assumed it too, based upon the woeful argument that mutually exclusive categories of "chance, necessity, and agency" exhaust our ability to describe causal events in the natural and human worlds.
The whole point of using the word “artificial is to distinguish it from “natural” so that rational discourse is possible...
This response again ignores particular important distinctions that I've taken pains to draw vis the scope and applicability of different senses of the word "natural." Those distinctions are well-enough stated above.
Notice how you use the word “evolution” both in the broad sense [common descent] to indict me even though I have no problem with that idea, and, in the narrow sense [driven solely by naturalistic forces] in order to argue on behalf of the proposition that mind arises from matter.
Perhaps I misconstrued your statement. Let us see. You stated, "You have established no evolutionary pathway to complexity." I took "evolutionary pathway to complexity" to denote a pathway of descent along which human cognition and human agency emerged. Were that construal accurate, then to state that "no evolutionary pathway to complexity" has been established would stand as a denial of common descent. I take denial of common descent as a marker of a near delusional rejection of the contemporary evidence on the matter. However, you say, "I have no problem with common descent." Ordinary parlance would take that as a statement of acknowledgement of the reality of common descent. If that is your intention, then "evolutionary pathway to complexity" denotes something else, and I retract the above statement, as it was based upon misconstrual. However, here in the land of Uncommon Descent the phrase "I have no problem with common descent" often denotes the weasel words, "maybe it is true, and maybe it isn't. I don't have a problem with it, but there is no evidence one way or the other on the question." I consider that position equally delusional in light of contemporary evidence. If this better characterizes your position on the matter, then my statement stands. Wear the shoe that fits. Let us know which you choose.
Surely, you don’t expect to maintain your position indefinitely by continually resorting to the phrase, “there is no evidence for….”
Amusing, given that this phrase (nor anything resembling it) doesn't appear in any of my posts above. Indeed, the couplet "no evidence" appears above only in posts advanced by pro-ID participants.
Since you reject any notion of individual volition
I have done no such thing. Indeed above I repeated "nowhere do I claim that human agency and intelligence (human beings mulling, designing, negotiating, etc.) don’t exist or are illusions. Rather, I claim that these features of human agency...have a natural (and cultural) history, and it is indeed this history that renders these features of human cognition and agency genuine." This framework permits investigation of the phenomenon of volition from the vantages of comparative psychology (again particularly with great apes), developmental psychology, neurobiology, the emergence of new cultural representations of self, etc. In constrast, theories of "volition" that call upon a "non-material intelligence" posit a volition that hangs there with no content, no moving parts, no history, no real relationship to the human brain, and no explanatory power other than that derived "by definition." Positing a non-material intelligence, mind, soul, etc. solves the problem of volition and "free will" by fiat only, and is a "theory" without content, in my view.Diffaxial
August 7, 2009
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Anything that is an animal is far beneath me. Typical fungus elitism! :)Nakashima
August 7, 2009
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Diffaxial:
In a sense, at the cultural level, we see the evolution of evolution, and the impact in human history of this new substrate of change has had explosive consequences, particularly in the last 13,000 and again in the last 500 years. Not to mention the immeasurable impact of the combined biological/cultural evolution of language.
When you phrase your conjecture in such definite terms, some could mistake it for something else.
Of course we are animals. But great apes, not monkeys. Get it straight.
I was being facetious. I am not an animal. Anything that is an animal is far beneath me.ScottAndrews
August 7, 2009
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Scott @ 317:
I thought you would. That was the point. But if that represents cultural evolution, doesn’t the bee waggle dance also represent cultural evolution? Is their communication any less cooperative?
I'm not well versed on the bee dance, and wasn't aware that it is thought to display cultural variation. I understand that 'dialects' are observed from species to species, but that is likely to reflect biological rather than cultural evolution. Are there variations in the modes of dance from bee community to bee community (e.g. hive to hive) within the same species? I did see on Wiki that when species have been mixed, they've slowly learned one another's 'dialects,' which is amazing in and of itself. BTW, it doesn't necessarily follow from the fact that bee dance behavior is cooperative that it is transmitted culturally. Kin-selection can relatively easily build adaptations reflecting a high level of organization and cooperation in the social insects (hymenopteran insects such as bees, wasps, and ants) because they exhibit a very high degree of average genetic relatedness stemming from their genetic haplodiploidy.
Which leads back to my point at 310: All of the things we think make us so special are just further evolved versions of what other animals do. We’re nothing but really smart monkeys. We pay $20 to sit in a chair and have another monkey groom us. We flash colors to impress mates. Birds build nests, we build houses.
You are ignoring the elements of human cultural transmission that are unique, which are considerable. Among these are joint attention, deliberate teaching and the transmission of technique (the latter two crucially important, but absent in the cultural transmission we observe in other great apes), "we intentionality," cultural contagion, and (relatively recently) organizational and institutional inventions such as craft guilds, apprenticeships, schools and conservatories, political parties, universities, and so forth. Many of these substrates are themselves culminations of human cultural invention and the accumulation and retention of specific practices, all creating and amplifying what Tomasello has called the cultural “ratchet effect" by means of which felicitous cultural innovations are retained, again crucial to human cultural evolution but absent from cultural transmission observed in other great apes. In a sense, at the cultural level, we see the evolution of evolution, and the impact in human history of this new substrate of change has had explosive consequences, particularly in the last 13,000 and again in the last 500 years. Not to mention the immeasurable impact of the combined biological/cultural evolution of language.
We are animals.
Of course we are animals. But great apes, not monkeys. Get it straight.Diffaxial
August 7, 2009
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----Diffaxial: “This fails to state, or even resemble, my objection. Rather, in the above I argue that the scheme of mutually exclusive categories “chance, necessity, and agency” is 1) more than a mere definition, but rather a set of assertions about the world, and 2) arbitrary and defective.” I have addressed the objection, but my words have gone unheeded. It is hardly possible to investigate the existence of something unless one acknowledges the possibility of its existence. One can legitimately define anything for the sake of argument so that everyone can follow what is being said. One need not to prove the existence of the elements contained in that definition. I can define a mythological creature, such as a unicorn, as a horse with a horn on its forehead. Following that, I can set up to prove its existence, in which case, I will most likely fail. By the standards you are using, I could not propose anything in a definition that doesn’t exist, or, more importantly, anything that you or your colleagues would deem unacceptable. That is all part of the Darwinist campaign to shut down debate. [By the way, I do not use the term “Darwinist” as an insult but rather as means of distinguishing unguided, undirected evolution from other forms of micro or macro evolution. Its just shorthand, nothing more.] -----“Investigate intelligent agency all you like – however, conclusions drawn from the application of this defective conceptual tool will themselves necessarily be defective.” Quite the contrary. You have suggested that I may not investigate it on the grounds that I have not yet proven that it exists. ----“I noted that the term “legal” can have different senses with differing scope and applicability depending upon the context within which it is used. Hence the sentence “Making illegal moves in chess is perfectly legal” is fully intelligible once the scope and applicability of “legal” in each instance is understood, something that is accomplished by means of ordinary linguistic practice.” Your position does not hold up as is clear from your unwillingness to address the point at issue. The questions are clear enough: Insofar as he ransacks your house, does the vandal exhibit different qualities than the “natural” effects of the weather or does he not? Did the vandal commit a crime or didn’t he? If he did, was it the product of volition, or was it the result of a natural law, for which he cannot be held accountable? If he ransacked your house and stole your property, would you hold him accountable or would you not? If you were a judge in a court of law, would you prosecute him as one who violated the exercise of his free will, or would you shut down the court system altogether on the grounds that all human actions are determined by natural laws? These questions do not go away simply because you find them inconvenient. ----“Similarly, the sense in which I use “natural” when I state that “human agency has natural (and cultural) origins” has a different scope and applicability than is intended when one employs the word “natural” to distinguish objects/events that are not of human devising from those that are.” ----“Accordingly, as I stated above, “It does not follow from the above that the ordinary distinction between ‘natural’ and ‘artificial’ objects has been lost. It is a useful distinction that reliably denotes the fact that natural objects (in the conventional sense) have a very different sort of history than do human artifacts.” To state that “human artifacts are in some sense natural objects” is no more problematic than “illegal moves are legal,” once the scope and applicability of the terms is ascertained in each instance, something ordinarily attained by common linguistic practice. The repeated qualifier “in some sense” is intended (again by ordinary linguistic practice) to alert the reader to the fact that the sense in which “natural” is deployed in this sentence differs than when used within the “artificial – natural” bifurcation.” One of the reasons why rigorous definitions are important is so that individuals cannot manipulate words in the middle of a discussion when their arguments are failing. The whole point of using the word “artificial is to distinguish it from “natural” so that rational discourse is possible. One the one hand, you forbid me to define agency as non-natural, which is a perfectly valid formulation and easy to follow; on the other hand, you define natural as natural when it serves one purpose and then you define it as artificial when it serves another purpose, thus violating the very rational standards that definitions are supposed to enforce. Thus, when I ask concrete questions about real world situations, the discussion breaks down. Example: Did the ancient hunters spear appear from "natural causes," or was it designed? I can answer that question easily, but you cannot even begin to approach it because you subsume everything into the word "natural" [design, volition, intent, history, weather, gravity, hope, fear, consciousness---whatever is needed to rescue the materialist paradigm] hopelessly muddling the issue beyond repair. -----“Your statement, “From my perspective, intelligent agents did the mulling, and the designing, and the negotiating, and the organizing, and the building–so I have nothing controversial to defend” is off point, because nowhere do I claim that human agency and intelligence (human beings mulling, designing, negotiating, etc.) don’t exist or are illusions. Rather, I claim that these features of human agency (mulling, planning, designing, negotiating) have a natural (and cultural) history, and it is indeed this history that renders these features of human cognition and agency genuine.” As I stated earlier, we already know that everything that exists has some kind of history. So, that fact doesn’t really shed any light on the debate. Returning to the relevant topic, you claim that everything is the result of “natural causes,” which has already been defined as law and chance, yet when we probe that assumption, you massage that definition and rework it into something else that has no scientific currency. ----“As you state, you don’t find that history relevant. That appears to be a key point of difference.” Yes, I think that is a fair statement. ----“Personally, I find the claim that “not a shred of evidence” exists for human evolution (and the evolution of core human cognitive characteristics) is close to delusional in light of modern archeology and physical anthropology.” Once again, this comment reflects an equivocation on definitions, which is why it is important to make them as rigorous as possible. Notice how you use the word “evolution” both in the broad sense [common descent] to indict me even though I have no problem with that idea, and, in the narrow sense [driven solely by naturalistic forces] in order to argue on behalf of the proposition that mind arises from matter. Thus, you imply that by rejecting the idea that mind can arise from matter, which I clearly do, I am also rejecting “evolution,” even though they are totally different concepts. So, I recount my earlier point: On the one hand, ID defines its terms precisely [law, chance, agency], all of which are scientifically comprehensible, yet you refuse to accept them for invalid reasons. On the other hand, you use fluid terms [“evolution,” “nature,” “culture,” “history,”] none of which are scientifically rigorous or even comprehensible, and, it would seem, hope that others will not notice. In any case, if there was any evidence to support the claim that mind can arise from matter, I have no doubt that you would provide it. It is another one of those something-can-come-from-nothing delusions. ----“Vis “free will” and consciousness, suffice it to say that, because there are no accounts of how “non-material” or “non-natural” intelligences (minds, souls, whatever) deploy consciousness, intentionality and volition (other than “by definition”), the topic is a wash.” Surely, you don’t expect to maintain your position indefinitely by continually resorting to the phrase, “there is no evidence for….” Since you reject any notion of individual volition or free exercise of the will, why not make the declaration as a statement of belief. In maintaining that belief, of course, you are committed to the proposition that no one could ever “decide” to erect a skyscraper or, for that matter, could anyone ever be held accountable for a crime. Indeed, your philosophy rules out any semblance of a well-ordered society based on civil laws, all of which assume that individuals should be held accountable for their actions. Since, as you put it, you know of no account of how a non-natural intelligence could deploy consciousness [and since we will likely never know] you might as well acknowledge that you are prepared to dispense with the matter of personal responsibility altogether. Why not face the cultural implications of your philosophy and deal with them directly rather than calling the topic a “wash?”StephenB
August 7, 2009
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Diffaxial @314, 315: I thought you would. That was the point. But if that represents cultural evolution, doesn't the bee waggle dance also represent cultural evolution? Is their communication any less cooperative? Which leads back to my point at 310: All of the things we think make us so special are just further evolved versions of what other animals do. We're nothing but really smart monkeys. We pay $20 to sit in a chair and have another monkey groom us. We flash colors to impress mates. Birds build nests, we build houses. We are animals. You should neither hesitate nor flinch before embracing this.ScottAndrews
August 7, 2009
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Diffaxial, Watching you try to attack ID is about as entertaining as watching Bradley Monton defend it. In both cases the image of a rather large train wreck comes to mind. Please know that everyone here already understands exactly what you are saying. It is not a difficult concept. The problem is elsewhere. If you were granted every claim you make (a concession that only a handful of the 7 billion people on this planet would be willing to give) it still does not answer the issue at hand. We already know the physical properties of nucleic acids; there are none that cause them to exist as linear chains of symbolic information. There are no material forces that cause one nucleotide to be followed by another along that chain. Likewise, there are no material properties that can establish the mapping of those individual symbols to an individual meaning or set of meanings. Yet, that is exactly what we find. These are material facts that have been established and re-established over and over again. (And please note: this is not about our ignorance of material forces, but about our knowledge of them) These are the same scientific observations that you have been challenged to address on several occasions, yet you repeatedly ignore them. And now your answer to the collective world in dealing with this phenomenon is that there is no “you” in you. In other words, instead of dealing with the actual issue at hand, you stake your ground as to the nature of man. This is referred to as a flanking maneuver by strategists all over the world; it’s an act to sheer the strength of the defended position because you don’t have the resources to overcome it on its merits (face to face). In other words, you have no answers that can directly address the actual issue, so you attack a side issue and hope to stay on your feet. It also tells us that not only are you in a defensive position, but also a weak one. If you could simply say “material force X is what causes nucleotides to assemble this way” then you would have done so (and your materialist ideology would have not been falsified by the evidence otherwise). But you can’t – because there is no material force X under observation. This leaves you in the position of saying “there IS a material force X, but we just don’t know it yet.” And of course, your argument is reduced accordingly. None of this should be any surprise. After all you have preemptively told us that you are “not interested in ramblings about the operation of language” in the origins of biological information. And then, you add the laughable idea that issue has “no hooks for empirical challenge”. Unfortunately for you, it is the very symbol system (language) used to sequence nucleic acids that must be explained.Upright BiPed
August 7, 2009
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I'll add to my previous: Each community of chimps displays its own unique suite of cultural variants, and if enough is known about an individual it becomes possible to locate it geographically on the basis of its cultural repertoire. Orangutans have also recently been shown to exhibit numerous behavioral variations across populations that have clear cultural origins, suggesting that great-ape cultures may have existed for at least 14 million years .Diffaxial
August 7, 2009
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Scott @ 313:
Can you give an example of cultural evolution that doesn’t include humans, and doesn’t open the door to call regional variations of the bee dance “cultural?”
Sure. Populations of chimpanzees display variations in at least 39 rituals that reflect the cultural transmission of behavior, including techniques for hammering nuts, pounding holes with a pestle made from palm stalks, fishing for termites, removing bone marrow from the long bones of monkeys killed as prey, fanning flies using leafy twigs, squashing parasites on leaves, clasping hands while grooming one another, and many others. The chimpanzees of the Taï Forest in Côte d’Ivoire hunt red colobus monkeys in coordinated groups, playing roles such “driver,” “blocker,” “chaser,” and “ambusher” (our labels, of course) that can require 20 or more years of experience to master. Meat is distributed to all participants in the hunt, with shares reflecting the importance and difficulty of each role. This highly coordinated form of hunting emerged as a form of mutualism demanded by harsh forest conditions: A dense, continuous canopy that affords easy escape for colubus monkeys and renders captures by unaided individuals unlikely. Chimps of the Gombe, Mahale, and Kibale National Forests in Kenya and Uganda hunt under canopies that are sparse and more often interrupted, have a fair chance of catching their prey working alone, and exhibit coordinated hunting with shared spoils much less frequently. I have references if you want to follow up on these very interesting observations and findings.Diffaxial
August 7, 2009
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Diffaxial: Can you give an example of cultural evolution that doesn't include humans, and doesn't open the door to call regional variations of the bee dance "cultural?"ScottAndrews
August 7, 2009
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Scott @ 310:
The point, as I see it, is that termites build mounds, bees build hives, beavers build dams, and people build Empire State Buildings. The difference between mounds and skyscrapers is only degrees. Someone can dig us up in a billion years and marvel at how we evolved to build such intricate dwellings. We are animals. We wear clothes just as snails grow shells. Our greatest inventions are merely better spiderwebs which evolution conditioned us to create.
This is incomplete. One product of human biological evolution has been a powerful and revolutionary capacity for collective activity, culture and cultural evolution (you'll note my repeated insertion of 'cultural' above). The histories of virtually all contemporary human artifacts is a history of cultural rather than biological evolution, a process for which there is no analog in the other examples you provide.Diffaxial
August 7, 2009
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StephenB @ 308:
The ID formulation is a claim that intelligent agency distinct from natural causes is a real possibility to be investigated. Your objection is little more than an inverse declaration that intelligent agency distinct from natural causes is not a possibility and may not be investigated.
This fails to state, or even resemble, my objection. Rather, in the above I argue that the scheme of mutually exclusive categories "chance, necessity, and agency" is 1) more than a mere definition, but rather a set of assertions about the world, and 2) arbitrary and defective. Investigate intelligent agency all you like - however, conclusions drawn from the application of this defective conceptual tool will themselves necessarily be defective.
By your philosophy, I must conclude that a vandal’s act is just one more physical event in a series of natural causes.
Only for whose who are not paying attention. I noted that the term "legal" can have different senses with differing scope and applicability depending upon the context within which it is used. Hence the sentence "Making illegal moves in chess is perfectly legal" is fully intelligible once the scope and applicability of "legal" in each instance is understood, something that is accomplished by means of ordinary linguistic practice. Similarly, the sense in in which I use "natural" when I state that "human agency has natural (and cultural) origins" has a different scope and applicability than is intended when one employs the word "natural" to distinguish objects/events that are not of human devising from those that are. Accordingly, as I stated above, "It does not follow from the above that the ordinary distinction between 'natural' and 'artificial' objects has been lost. It is a useful distinction that reliably denotes the fact that natural objects (in the conventional sense) have a very different sort of history than do human artifacts." To state that "human artifacts are in some sense natural objects" is no more problematic than "illegal moves are legal," once the scope and applicability of the terms is ascertained in each instance, something ordinarily attained by common linguistic practice. The repeated qualifier "in some sense" is intended (again by ordinary linguistic practice) to alert the reader to the fact that the sense in which "natural" is deployed in this sentence differs than when used within the "artificial - natural" bifurcation. The balance of your post revolves around ignoring, or perhaps failing to grasp, this distinction. Your statement, "From my perspective, intelligent agents did the mulling, and the designing, and the negotiating, and the organizing, and the building–so I have nothing controversial to defend" is off point, because nowhere do I claim that human agency and intelligence (human beings mulling, designing, negotiating, etc.) don't exist or are illusions. Rather, I claim that these features of human agency (mulling, planning, designing, negotiating) have a natural (and cultural) history, and it is indeed this history that renders these features of human cognition and agency genuine. As you state, you don't find that history relevant. That appears to be a key point of difference. Of course this presentation of my argument, which is compressed into a handful of paragraphs, is necessarily "bald." Whether the larger argument is supportable in light of evidence is another conversation. Personally, I find the claim that "not a shred of evidence" exists for human evolution (and the evolution of core human cognitive characteristics) is close to delusional in light of modern archeology and physical anthropology. Vis "free will" and consciousness, suffice it to say that, because there are no accounts of how "non-material" or "non-natural" intelligences (minds, souls, whatever) deploy consciousness, intentionality and volition (other than "by definition"), the topic is a wash.Diffaxial
August 7, 2009
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The point, as I see it, is that termites build mounds, bees build hives, beavers build dams, and people build Empire State Buildings. The difference between mounds and skyscrapers is only degrees. Someone can dig us up in a billion years and marvel at how we evolved to build such intricate dwellings. We are animals. We wear clothes just as snails grow shells. Our greatest inventions are merely better spiderwebs which evolution conditioned us to create. I don't cite that as evidence against Darwinism, because it isn't. But if those factors explain us, then they explain all we do. You can't accept one and reject the other.ScottAndrews
August 7, 2009
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I come here for the rhetoric.Adel DiBagno
August 7, 2009
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---Diffaxial: “IOW, “agency is non-natural” is a claim, something posited or hypothesized by ID. Hence your definitions are not merely definitions but posits with considerable content, and to take issue with them is not to object to an attempt to attain terminological precision, but rather to the asserted content of these claims. (BTW, they fall far short of being “operational” definitions, as no operations are anywhere described).” The ID formulation is a claim that intelligent agency distinct from natural causes is a real possibility to be investigated. Your objection is little more than an inverse declaration that intelligent agency distinct from natural causes is not a possibility and may not be investigated. Suppose you came home one night and found your living room ransacked. Suppose further, that I hypothesized that a natural phenomenon [tornado] did not cause the clutter and that you should attribute the mess to an intelligent agent [a vandal]. By your philosophy, I must conclude that a vandal’s act is just one more physical event in a series of natural causes. Further, I could not even propose that such a thing as a vandal since, by your lights, those kinds of speculations contain undue "content." If you were a judge in a court of law, would you take that approach, declaring that intelligent agents [miscreants] are nothing more than natural laws in action, waiting for their materialistic fate to play itself out? ----“The complexities of human cognition and the crowning achievements of human artifact are built atop a natural history that, ultimately, has a depth (at minimum) of 3.5 billion years of biological evolution (not to mention the preceding ten billion years of cosmological history), upon which another 100,000 years of human cultural evolution has arisen.” Here you are simply asserting the materialist hypothesis for which you have not a shred of evidence. You have established no evolutionary pathway to complexity, nor have you provided even a hint as to how consciousness could arise from matter. -----“Contrary to your assertion that human agency is “other” than that history, human agency has those tiers of history packed within it, and is possible only in light of it. Stated simply, the only agency of which we are aware – the agency ID takes as its model – has a natural (and cultural) history.” I didn’t say anything about history, because history has nothing to do with it. These are simply more bald assertions with nothing to support them. In any case, to say that everything that exists has a history is to tell us nothing; we already knew that. ----Your notion that to understand the human species in light of this natural history compels absurdities such as “the laws of nature mulled over New York’s image” reflects that poverty. I agree that it is ridiculous to say that “natural laws” could mull over New York’s image, or draw up blueprints for the Empire State Building, or consider the city’s zoning laws, but that is not my philosophy; it is your philosophy. You have the same problem here that you have with the example of the vandal. Once the possibility of human agency is rejected, only the absurd remains. From my perspective, intelligent agents did the mulling, and the designing, and the negotiating, and the organizing, and the building--so I have nothing controversial to defend. I have a very easy pathway to explaining every phase of the project by simply stating that intelligent agents decided to do take action. On the other hand, your philosophy is fraught with every manner of difficulty, including the requisite denial of free will. I submit that the builders could have chosen to build it or not build it; you must concede that they had no choice whatsoever in the matter. For me, the builders are individual agents using human volition; for you, they are nothing more than nature’s plaything. So, it is very clear which position is absurd. In keeping with that point, I have often wondered why Darwinists visit this site to persuade people to their way of thinking even though, for them, no one can ever persuade another person to do anything that the laws of nature have not already compelled them to do.StephenB
August 6, 2009
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StephenB @ 306:
It is a definition with respect to a hypothesis, which posits that the cause will be non-natural.
IOW, "agency is non-natural" is a claim, something posited or hypothesized by ID. Hence your definitions are not merely definitions but posits with considerable content, and to take issue with them is not to object to an attempt to attain terminological precision, but rather to the asserted content of these claims. (BTW, they fall far short of being "operational" definitions, as no operations are anywhere described).
ID hypothesizes that it’s existence was NOT caused by natural forces [causes], which are normally expressed as weather, time, erosion etc., which is another way of saying that it hypothesizes that something different than natural causes built it [formed it].
Your hypothesis is compelled by an impoverished conception of the entities, systems, causal processes, and time horizons denoted by the natural, a poverty displayed by your examplars ("weather, time, erosion"). The complexities of human cognition and the crowning achievements of human artifact are built atop a natural history that, ultimately, has a depth (at minimum) of 3.5 billion years of biological evolution (not to mention the preceding ten billion years of cosmological history), upon which another 100,000 years of human cultural evolution has arisen. Contrary to your assertion that human agency is "other" than that history, human agency has those tiers of history packed within it, and is possible only in light of it. Stated simply, the only agency of which we are aware - the agency ID takes as its model - has a natural (and cultural) history. Your notion that to understand the human species in light of this natural history compels absurdities such as "the laws of nature mulled over New York’s image" reflects that poverty.Diffaxial
August 6, 2009
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---Diffaxial: "Do you really want to say that this is only a definition, and not a claim?" It is a definition with respect to a hypothesis, which posits that the cause will be non-natural. The whole purpose of the design inference is to reason FROM that which is observed [the natural] TO its cause [intelligence]. By definition that cause would be something different that nature because nature, Darwin style, creates only the illusion of design AFTER the fact, whereas ID posits the reality of design BEFORE the fact. ID's metaphysical "claim" in the context that you formulate it, constitutes nothing more than a speculation that such a thing might be possible; Darwinism's metaphysical claim, and it is an outright claim [not a speculation], is that such a thing is not and cannot be possible. On the other hand, ID's scientific "claim" [conclusion] is made after the design inference is made. If it was made prior to the inference, as is the case with creation science, then it would not be an inference; it would be a presupposition. Let's go back to the example of Empire State Building. ID hypothesizes that it's existence was NOT caused by natural forces [causes], which are normally expressed as weather, time, erosion etc., which is another way of saying that it hypothesizes that something different than natural causes built it [formed it]. The only other known possible cause other than natural causes is intelligent agency, so ID reason's its way FROM the improbability that natural forces TO the probability of intelligence. So, from a scientific perspective, ID begins by speculating that something other than natural causes, i.e. intelligence, could exist, but it makes no claim that such intelligence is the cause prior to the inference. On the other hand, Darwinism insists [claims] that no cause other than natural forces is possible and rules out the design inference in principle. That is why they are stuck with the ridiculous proposition that the Empire State Building was built by "natural causes." They can't conceive that human intelligence is, in any way, different than the laws of nature. It also puts them in the clumsy position of having to say that those forces had no choice except to build the Empire State Building and that all the planning that went into it was also a "natural" phenomenon. Thus, the laws of nature, one gathers, mulled over New York's image, sought to surpass the height of the Chrysler building, drew up the blueprint, mobilized a group effort, and reconciled its ambitions with New York's zoning laws.StephenB
August 6, 2009
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Diffaxial, As soon as you are through defining what ID is, could you answer the question posed above regarding your own definitions. I repost it here for your convienence:
“In that sense I agree. The Empire State Building is in some sense a highly derived natural object.”
Derived from what? The willful act of an agent, perhaps? But, I thought “will” was simply “natural”. If that is case, then the existence of the Empire State building must be “highly” natural.
“It is a useful distinction that reliably denotes the fact that natural objects (in the conventional sense) have a very different sort of history than do human artifacts.”
What would the distinction in their history be? The appearance of the “will”? If not, then what?
So the questions are these: You say that an artifact such as the Empire State building is a "highly derived" artifact. 1) Derived from what? And, you also say natural artifacts and human artifacts have a distinction in their histories. 2) What is that distinction, and what is its source?Upright BiPed
August 6, 2009
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StephenB @ 302:
It should be obvious that if ID defines “natural” as law and chance, and if it defines agency as something else, then agency cannot be natural under that definition... Obviously, your Latin derivative applies to those who mistakenly believe that definitions can provide new information.
From the above we extract (momentarily), "ID defines 'natural' as law and chance. ID defines agency as something else. Therefore agency cannot be natural." This reduces tautologically to, "ID defines agency as non-natural." But you say, "IF ID defines 'natural'..." and "IF it defines agency as something else..." So we pose this question: DOES ID so define "natural" and "agency?" If so, then "ID defines agency as non-natural." Do you really want to say that this is only a definition, and not a claim?Diffaxial
August 6, 2009
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StephenB:
One side expresses itself with mathematical precision, while the other side throws words around with imprecise and changeable meanings without a qualm— as if they should never be held accountable for what they mean when they communicate—as if their adversaries, who carefully define their terms and definitions are guilty of some kind of logical breach.
Agreed.R0b
August 5, 2009
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Diffaxial @ 301: "Argumentum ad definitium." It should be obvious that if ID defines “natural” as law and chance, and if it defines agency as something else, then agency cannot be natural under that definition. The very first step in establishing any kind of rational discussion is to define one’s terms precisely. This may be the first time in history that one group of thinkers [ID scientists ] explained exactly they mean by their terms only to have another group of non-thinkers [Darwinists] tell him that they may not do that. Obviously, your Latin derivative applies to those who mistakenly believe that definitions can provide new information. On the contrary, that is not what has been done here; ID is simply offering precise operational terms. In other words, your objection is misplaced and inappropriate. Incredibly, the Darwinists, who seek to disallow ID scientists to rationally define their operational terms, resist offering an account of their own definitions. What do they mean by “evolution?” They will equivocate with the word so that they can shift back and forth depending on how badly and in what context they are losing the argument. What do they mean by “creationist?” Well, that too depends on which way the wind is blowing. What do they mean by “emergence?” Again, it is contingent on which of their arguments have been reasonably refuted and which strategy they hope to use to obfuscate the debate. One side expresses itself with mathematical precision, while the other side throws words around with imprecise and changeable meanings without a qualm--- as if they should never be held accountable for what they mean when they communicate---as if their adversaries, who carefully define their terms and definitions are guilty of some kind of logical breach. Remarkable.StephenB
August 5, 2009
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StephenB @ 291:
If “natural” is defined as law and chance, and, if “agency” is something other than that, then obviously an intelligent agent is not a natural phenomenon.
Argumentum ad definitium.Diffaxial
August 5, 2009
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StephenB @ 279:
This is indeed remarkable. Man [A] releases a ball, and natural forces cause it to fall to the ground. Man [B] throught an act of the will, interrputs the descent in progress and snatches the ball out of the air. Now the Darwinists are telling me that both events are “natural.”
I would say both actions (dropping a ball; snatching a ball out of the air) may reflect human agency. Then I'd say that human agency arose from, and is in a sense a part of, the natural world, and that it became so without nudges from further unknown agents. Human agency has a natural history.
Yet Diffaxial insists that the third category has been artificially injected and that we are injecting a conclusion into a hypothesis.
Diffaxial finds that the entire trichotomous scheme, particularly the arbitrarily imposed mutual exclusivity of its categories, has outlived its usefulness and compels incorrect conclusions. It fails to "carve nature at its joints," as the wonderful phrase goes (also attributable to Plato).
...For them physical events don’t necessarily need causes, meaning that something could come from nothing. That is why they keep alluding to quantum mechanics, hoping against hope that quantum particles can appear without a cause, which of course, they cannot.
As before, the degree to which quantum physics describes events that may be said to be acausal has little bearing upon evolutionary theory, which can be accommodated at a macroscopic and classically deterministic level without reference to quantum effects. Hence there is no motivation to advance the putative acausal facets of quantum physics within the context of a discussion of biological evolution.
For them, life can appear without a cause; it just happens.
Vis the OOL (a topic in which I am not at all versed, so this will be very general), I feel safe in asserting that OOL research is premised upon the expectation that replicating systems emerged from other physiochemical processes, and that the goal of such research is to describe in as much detail as possible the sort of physiochemical substrates, and the organization of same, that permitted/resulted in this event. IOW, what is sought is a causal account. I doubt anyone in the field would be satisfied with "it just happened." Can you provide a quote of or link to a scientist or researcher who is?
I again remind you of principle II, [whole always greater than any one of the parts] which I dramatized a few days ago with the example that an automobile cannot be a part of a crankshaft. As I predicted, several of your colleagues questioned that proposition. You seemed OK with it as well.
I've never commented on this particular notion one way or another. How could I "seem OK with it?"Diffaxial
August 5, 2009
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Why do you guys not find this surprising? Evolutionists sit back and make the most fanciful conjectures of imagination for evolutionary scenarios, mercilessly ridicule anyone who questions such conjectures as a ignoramus, zealot, or worse, and yet when push comes to shove in experimentation there is "ZERO" evidence that complexity can be had. Why are you guys so forgiving of such deficiency?bornagain77
August 5, 2009
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In fact Dave and Khan, The lowly Flagellum sits unscathed, by coherent pathway nor experimentation, after all this years since Behe singled it out as irreducibly complex: Bacterial Flagellum - A Sheer Wonder Of Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNi0YXYadg0 Biologist Howard Berg at Harvard calls the Bacterial Flagellum “the most efficient machine in the universe." The flagellum has steadfastly resisted all attempts to elucidate its plausible origination by Darwinian processes, much less has anyone ever actually evolved a flagellum from scratch in the laboratory; Genetic Entropy Refutation of Nick Matzke's TTSS (type III secretion system) to Flagellum Evolutionary Narrative: excerpt: .....Comparative genomic analysis show that flagellar genes have been differentially lost in endosymbiotic bacteria of insects. Only proteins involved in protein export within the flagella assembly pathway (type III secretion system and the basal-body) have been kept... http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/msn153v1 Bacterial Flagella - A Paradigm for Design - Scott Minnich - video http://www.veritas.org/media/talks/92bornagain77
August 5, 2009
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You know Dave, I really don't care if functional proteins are as common as sand: The point is: "We have always underestimated cells. Undoubtedly we still do today....We can walk and we can talk because the chemistry that makes life possible is much more elaborate and sophisticated than anything we students had ever considered...Instead of a cell dominated by randomly colliding individual protein molecules. we now know that nearly every major process in a cell is carried out by assemblies of 10 or more protein molecules. And, as it carries out its biological functions, each of these protein assemblies interacts with several other large complexes of proteins. Indeed, the entire cell can be viewed as a factory that contains an elaborate network of interlocking assembly lines, each which is composed of a set of large protein machines." Bruce Alberts: Former President, National Academy of Sciences; The Cell as a Collection of Protein Machines http://www.imbb.forth.gr/people/aeconomou/documents/Alberts98.pdf And yet evolutionists have never demonstarted the "evolution" of a SINGLE protein machine, though the cell is rife with them: Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A Does it not strike you and Khan as surprising deceptive for evolution to be sold as "accepted as gravity" when is has not even passed this basic level of scientific integrity? Why should evolution get a free pass?bornagain77
August 5, 2009
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Speaking of brain, mind and "nature," the following is excerpted from a note in Monday's Washington Post:
Neurons Respond To Concepts Neuroscientists may be one step closer to understanding how perceptions and memories are formed in the human brain. A new study published this summer in the journal Current Biology demonstrates how neurons, the cells that process and transmit information, respond to conceptual stimuli such as images, written and spoken words. "Single neurons respond to concepts," wrote Rodrigo Quian Quiroga, head of bioengineering at the University of Leicester in England, in an e-mail. [...] "A neuron responded to three different pictures of Oprah Winfrey (and not to other people)," Quiroga wrote. That means the neuron did not respond to a particular characteristic of one of the pictures, such as the background color, but to the identity of the person, he wrote. Quiroga also wrote that the same neuron fired when the subject heard or read Oprah's name.
The full paper is not yet available, but should appear soon on the Current Biology Website.Adel DiBagno
August 5, 2009
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Thus Khan we can quibble over methodology,, but even using your questionable paper the proteins are rare (10^12),,,and even the evolutionary paper I cited admits "Useful ones are even more rare.” By useful ones are even more rare I am sure he is barely touching the binding binding site generation that Behe elucidated + 10^20.bornagain77
August 5, 2009
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