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Bait And Switch (Intuition, Part Deux)

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Once upon a time people thought that the sun revolved around the earth because this was intuitive. They were wrong. Once upon a time people thought that the moon revolved around the earth because it was intuitive. They were right. Therefore, intuition can’t be trusted.

Good enough. Evidence eventually confirmed the truth in both cases.

Then along came neo-Darwinism in the 20th century. Intuition and the simple mathematics of combinatorics suggest that random errors and throwing out stuff that doesn’t work can’t account for highly complex information-processing machinery and the information it processes in biological systems. There is no evidence, hard science, or mathematical analysis that can give any credibility to the proposed power of the Darwinian mechanism in this regard.

Intuition suggests that step-by-tiny-step Darwinian gradualism could not have happened, because the intermediates would not be viable. A lizard with proto-feathers on its forelimbs would be a lousy aviator and an equally incompetent runner. We find no such creatures in the fossil record, for obvious reasons. We find long periods of stasis, and the emergence of fully developed creatures with entirely new and innovative capabilities.

So, the Darwinian argument essentially goes as follows: Because human intuition is sometimes wrong, we can ignore intuition, basic reasoning, historical evidence, and the lack of empirical evidence — but only in the case of the claims of the creative power of the Darwinian mechanism.

This is classic bait-and-switch con-artistry: Intuition can be wrong, therefore evidence, the lack thereof, and logic can be ignored or assumed to be wrong as well.

Comments
Diff, who are you trying to kid with your post at 216? In it you say that my questions to you have no count with your assertions on this board. We’ll let’s look at you assertions and see if that is the case, or if, as I suspect, your objections are as contrived as they seem. In your earlier post you quote Jerry saying:
By using the term “model” it indicates that something is operating according to some system (usually the interaction of several physical processes) when the thing that ID is interested in is possibly a one time event and is an anomaly from on going natural laws…If it is a willful act by an intelligent agent then it could be a one time event and no model imaginable could describe it.
To this you post a reply that has a rather familiar refrain: Oh, how delightful our world would be if that pesky ID could simply be kicked out of the club. Like a old and tired political stereotype from an era gone by; there is always an old fart who is pleased to bring it up. You say: “Jerry’s reply succinctly describes those characteristics of ID that render it incapable of becoming an empirical science.” Your meaning here is as clear as a bell: ID is not science. Your inspiring support for this claim comes directly from your comment: “ID’s assertion that an entirely unknown designer effected changes that are anomalous relative to natural laws and may be one-off events render “ID theory” incapable of generating empirical predictions. Simple as that.” So lets us look at your reasoning before we examine my response. Firstly, you say that ID makes an assertion that the identity of the designing agent is unknown. This is completely true, and it is true for a very important reason. There is nothing whatsoever in the evidence for design that gives even a hint of whom or what may have provided the design. The only thing that ID can discern from the physical evidence (using the correct methods of historical scientific investigation) is that an act of volitional agency is not only the best explanation, but the only explanation capable of producing what is observed at the molecular level of Life. You may take a clue on this point from Charles Lyell on the subject of explaining past events in the historical sciences. The subtitle of his master work is “By Reference to Causes Now in Operation”. In other words, agency is the only cause in operation today that we are empirically certain is “causally adequate” to explain what we observe. The largest body of observations in biology can be explained by the assumption that organisms can change over time, and that Life exist by virtue of selection at the level of information. The fact you are uneasy when ID cannot name a designer is tantamount to you trying to write into the evidence something that is not there. Clearly you would like ID to posit a designer so you would have something to argue with, but sorry, that isn’t the job of science (and certainly isn’t a function of the evidence). Secondly, you suggest that ID asserts a cause that is “anomalous relative to natural law” and may even be a “one-off” event. This is also true, but the direction of your comment is ignorant of the facts. The Big Bang is demonstrably “anomalous relative to natural law” and may even be a “one-off” event. Is the Big Bang science? The argument in cosmic origins brewed for years, but in the end it was decided by the recognition of new evidence that we can see and verify today by causes operating as they exist today. This is the exact same position ID holds with the evidence. Your recognition of it is the variable here, but the evidence is intractable on its own terms. Material causes, as we observe them, cannot form a symbol system, and there are no physical properties that can cause the sequencing of nucleotides inside genetic information. The only cause as we observe it today, which is capable of producing the evidence, is the act of an agent. These things are not even in question. Materialists often talk about being as certain as gravity, but I suspect that is only because they can’t count on the evidence. In any case, my response to your post was that you should try to make sense (and be consistent). I stand by those comments. I also said that science has fundamentally concluded that Life began by chance, and I asked what lab results science used to confirm that Life began by chance. To this you responded that my question has nothing to do with your insistence that ID should show some lab results in order to be considered science. As I suspected, your objection is as contrived as it is detached from the evidence at hand. - - - - - - - - - - - You then go on in your post to argue about the predictions made by evolutionary processes. It’s a head-shaker, really. Honestly, when are you going to get it? ID isn’t about evolution. However, in light of the empirical evidence that chance and physical necessity did not sequence the nucleic acids that make life possible, would you like to know what the core prediction of materialism is? It’s that all things are caused by chance and physical necessity. The core prediction of the design hypothesis is just the opposite; that we have found something not caused by chance and physical necessity, but was the act of an agent instead. The evidence, as we can observe it, is a falsification of the materialist’s ideology and an affirmation of design. You then say “You are incorrect to state that it is a “foundational conclusion” that life arose randomly. It is fair to say that it is an assumption (not a conclusion) that the origin of life is a natural phenomenon that has occurred without the intervention of an agent.” You must be talking about something else. Setting aside the fact that the assumption doesn’t even come close to explaining the evidence, you couldn’t possibly be implying that science has not made its mind up about origins being caused by chance and necessity. You say “any postulated origin must remain speculative for the present”. Which institutions of higher learning tolerate even a tacit admission that chance and necessity cannot form a symbol system? For whatever reason, you did not say.Upright BiPed
August 4, 2009
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Diff, who are you trying to kid with your post at 216? In it you say that my questions to you have no count with your assertions on this board. We’ll let’s look at you assertions and see if that is the case, or if, as I suspect, your objections are as contrived as they seem. In your earlier post you quote Jerry saying:
By using the term “model” it indicates that something is operating according to some system (usually the interaction of several physical processes) when the thing that ID is interested in is possibly a one time event and is an anomaly from on going natural laws…If it is a willful act by an intelligent agent then it could be a one time event and no model imaginable could describe it.
To this you post a reply that has a rather familiar refrain: Oh, how delightful our world would be if that pesky ID could simply be kicked out of the club. Like a old and tired political stereotype from an era gone by; there is always an old fart who is pleased to bring it up. You say: “Jerry’s reply succinctly describes those characteristics of ID that render it incapable of becoming an empirical science.” Your meaning here is as clear as a bell: ID is not science. Your inspiring support for this claim comes directly from your comment: “ID’s assertion that an entirely unknown designer effected changes that are anomalous relative to natural laws and may be one-off events render “ID theory” incapable of generating empirical predictions. Simple as that.” So lets us look at your reasoning before we examine my response. Firstly, you say that ID makes an assertion that the identity of the designing agent is unknown. This is completely true, and it is true for a very important reason. There is nothing whatsoever in the evidence for design that gives even a hint of whom or what may have provided the design. The only thing that ID can discern from the physical evidence (using the correct methods of historical scientific investigation) is that an act of volitional agency is not only the best explanation, but the only explanation capable of producing what is observed at the molecular level of Life. You may take a clue on this point from Charles Lyell on the subject of explaining past events in the historical sciences. The subtitle of his master work is “By Reference to Causes Now in Operation”. In other words, agency is the only cause in operation today that we are empirically certain is “causally adequate” to explain what we observe. The largest body of observations in biology can be explained by the assumption that organisms can change over time, and that Life exist by virtue of selection at the level of information. The fact you are uneasy when ID cannot name a designer is tantamount to you trying to write into the evidence something that is not there. Clearly you would like ID to posit a designer so you would have something to argue with, but sorry, that isn’t the job of science (and certainly isn’t a function of the evidence). Secondly, you suggest that ID asserts a cause that is “anomalous relative to natural law” and may even be a “one-off” event. This is also true, but the direction of your comment is ignorant of the facts. The Big Bang is demonstrably “anomalous relative to natural law” and may even be a “one-off” event. Is the Big Bang science? The argument in cosmic origins brewed for years, but in the end it was decided by the recognition of new evidence that we can see and verify today by causes operating as they exist today. This is the exact same position ID holds with the evidence. Your recognition of it is the variable here, but the evidence is intractable on its own terms. Material causes, as we observe them, cannot form a symbol system, and there are no physical properties that can cause the sequencing of nucleotides inside genetic information. The only cause as we observe it today, which is capable of producing the evidence, is the act of an agent. These things are not even in question. Materialists often talk about being as certain as gravity, but I suspect that is only because they can’t count on the evidence. In any case, my response to your post was that you should try to make sense (and be consistent). I stand by those comments. I also said that science has fundamentally concluded that Life began by chance, and I asked what lab results science used to confirm that Life began by chance. To this you responded that my question has nothing to do with your insistence that ID should show some lab results in order to be considered science. As I suspected, your objection is as contrived as it is detached from the evidence at hand. - - - - - - - - - - - You then go on in your post to argue about the predictions made by evolutionary processes. It’s a head-shaker, really. Honestly, when are you going to get it? ID isn’t about evolution. However, in light of the empirical evidence that chance and physical necessity did not sequence the nucleic acids that make life possible, would you like to know what the core prediction of materialism is? It’s that all things are caused by chance and physical necessity. The core prediction of the design hypothesis is just the opposite; that we have found something not caused by chance and physical necessity, but was the act of an agent instead. The evidence, as we can observe it, is a falsification of the materialist’s ideology and an affirmation of design. You then say “You are incorrect to state that it is a “foundational conclusion” that life arose randomly. It is fair to say that it is an assumption (not a conclusion) that the origin of life is a natural phenomenon that has occurred without the intervention of an agent.” You must be talking about something else. Setting aside the fact that the assumption doesn’t even come close to explaining the evidence, you couldn’t possibly be implying that science has not made its mind up about origins being caused by chance and necessity. You say “any postulated origin must remain speculative for the present”. Which institutions of higher learning tolerate even a tacit admission that chance and necessity cannot form a symbol system? For whatever reason, you did not say.Upright BiPed
August 4, 2009
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Excellent response kairosfocus, Nakashima, Though I will not argue for the resurrection at this moment, which I hold to have sufficient evidence, nor will I expose your lie of some other variations being responsible for evolution at this moment, I will ask you a question of your materialistic philosophy,,"Exactly what constraint of materialism is going to prevent a Almighty Transcendent God from existing?" Even evolutionary thinking cannot constrain Him: "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." Alan Sandage (preeminent Astronomer) The only other theory possible for the universe’s creation, other than a God-centered hypothesis, is some purposeless materialistic theory based on blind chance. Materialistic blind chance only escapes being completely crushed, by the overwhelming weight of evidence for design, by appealing to an infinity of other un-testable universes in which all other possibilities have been played out. Yet there is no hard physical evidence to support this blind chance conjecture. In fact, the “infinite multiverse” conjecture suffers from some very serious flaws of logic. For instance exactly which laws of physics, arising from which material basis, are telling all the other natural laws in physics what, how and when, to do the many precise unchanging things they do in these other universes? Plus, if an infinite number of other possible universes must exist in order to explain the fine tuning of this one, then why is it not also infinitely possible for a infinitely powerful and transcendent Creator to exist? I bet evolutionists will suddenly find a limit to what evolution is capable of doing when they realize that unconstrained possibility! Using the materialist same line of reasoning for an infinity of multiverses to explain the extreme fine-tuning of this one; if it is infinitely possible for God to exist then He, of 100% certainty, must exist no matter how small the probability is of His existence in one of these other infinity of universes, and since He certainly must exist, then all possibilities in all universes automatically become subject to Him since He is, by definition, All Powerful. To illustrate the absurdity of what the materialists now consider their cutting edge science: The materialistic conjecture of an infinity of universes to explain the fine tuning of this one also insures the 100% probability of the existence of Pink Unicorns no matter how small the probability is of them existing. In fact a infinity of universes insures the existence of an infinity of Pink Unicorns an infinite number of times. Thus it is self-evident the materialists have painted themselves into a inescapable corner of logical absurdities in trying to find an escape from the Theistic implications we are finding for the fine-tuning of this universe. Considering Buying Into the Multiverse? Caveat Emptor http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/08/caveat_emptor_if_buying_multiverse.html Another escape from the theistic implications of the anthropic principle that materialists have postulated was a slightly constrained "string-theoretic" multiverse: Baron Münchhausen and the Self-Creating Universe: That the universe did not always exist is certain, even when multiverse scenarios are considered, since the mechanism of “eternal inflation” postulated to give rise to the multiverse is not eternal into the past (Borde, Guth& Vilenkin: Jan 2003).....design inferences are epistemically warranted when specified information of a certain complexity (high improbability) is observed, quite independent of whether we have an explanation for the intelligence behind the design. Here’s a particularly telling example: Roger Penrose has calculated that the entropy of the big bang itself, in order to give rise to the life-permitting universe we observe, must be fine-tuned to one part in e10exp(123)?10^10exp(123). Such complex specified conditions do not arise by chance, even in a string-theoretic multiverse with 10^500 different configurations of laws and constants, so an intelligent cause may be inferred. What is more, since it is the big bang itself that is fine-tuned to this degree, the intelligence that explains it as an effect must be logically prior to it and independent of it – in short, an immaterial intelligence that transcends matter, energy and space-time. So much, then, for a personified universe engineering its own bio-friendliness: the universe is not a free lunch and the intelligence of which it gives evidence is not incipient within it. The following expert shows why the materialistic postulation of "string theory" is, for all intents and purposes of empirical science, a complete waste of time and energy: Not Even Wrong: The Failure of String Theory and the Search for Unity in Physical Law: Peter Woit, a PhD. in theoretical physics and a lecturer in mathematics at Columbia, points out—again and again—that string theory, despite its two decades of dominance, is just a hunch aspiring to be a theory. It hasn't predicted anything, as theories are required to do, and its practitioners have become so desperate, says Woit, that they're willing to redefine what doing science means in order to justify their labors. Materialists also use to try to find a place for the blind chance of materialism to hide by proposing a universe which expands and contracts (recycles) infinitely. Even at first glance, the “recycling universe” conjecture suffers so many questions from the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) as to render it effectively implausible as a serious theory, but now the recycling universe conjecture has been totally crushed by the hard empirical evidence for a "flat" universe by the "BOOMERANG" experiment. Evidence against the oscillating universe- Michael Strauss - video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A9G8k02vpI Evidence For Flat Universe Reported By Boomerang Project http://www.lbl.gov/ScienceArticles/Archive/boomerang-flat.html A "flat universe", which is actually another surprisingly finely-tuned "coincidence" of the universe, means this universe, left to its own present course of accelerating expansion due to "Dark Energy", will continue to expand forever, thus fulfilling the thermodynamic equilibrium of the second law to its fullest extent (entropic "Heat Death" of the universe). The Future of the Universe excerpt: After all the black holes have evaporated, (and after all the ordinary matter made of protons has disintegrated, if protons are unstable), the universe will be nearly empty. Photons, neutrinos, electrons and positrons will fly from place to place, hardly ever encountering each other. It will be cold, and dark, and there is no known process which will ever change things. ---- Not a happy ending. Psalm 102:25-27 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will have no end. Big Rip Excerpt: The Big Rip is a cosmological hypothesis first published in 2003, about the ultimate fate of the universe, in which the matter of universe, from stars and galaxies to atoms and subatomic particles, are progressively torn apart by the expansion of the universe at a certain time in the future. Theoretically, the scale factor of the universe becomes infinite at a finite time in the future. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rip Romans 8:18-21 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. The only hard evidence there is, the stunning precision found in the universal constants, points overwhelmingly to intelligent design by an infinitely powerful Creator who originally established what the unchanging universal constants of physics could and would do during the creation of the universe. The hard evidence left no room for the blind chance of natural laws in this universe. Thus, materialism was forced into appealing to an infinity of un-testable universes for it was left with no footing in this universe. These developments in science make it seem like materialism was cast into the abyss of nothingness in so far as rationally explaining the fine-tuning of the universe. Thus Nakashima, as far as I am concerned, you are without a reasonable excuse to cling to materialism, as you are doing in your rejection of God.bornagain77
August 4, 2009
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Excellent response kairosfocus, Nakashima, Though I will not argue for the resurrection at this moment, which I hold to have sufficient evidence, I will ask you a question of your materialistic philosophy,,"Exactly what constraint of materialism is going to prevent a Almighty Transcendent God from existing?" Even evolutionary thinking cannot constrain Him: "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." Alan Sandage (preeminent Astronomer) The only other theory possible for the universe’s creation, other than a God-centered hypothesis, is some purposeless materialistic theory based on blind chance. Materialistic blind chance only escapes being completely crushed, by the overwhelming weight of evidence for design, by appealing to an infinity of other un-testable universes in which all other possibilities have been played out. Yet there is no hard physical evidence to support this blind chance conjecture. In fact, the “infinite multiverse” conjecture suffers from some very serious flaws of logic. For instance exactly which laws of physics, arising from which material basis, are telling all the other natural laws in physics what, how and when, to do the many precise unchanging things they do in these other universes? Plus, if an infinite number of other possible universes must exist in order to explain the fine tuning of this one, then why is it not also infinitely possible for a infinitely powerful and transcendent Creator to exist? I bet evolutionists will suddenly find a limit to what evolution is capable of doing when they realize that unconstrained possibility! Using the materialist same line of reasoning for an infinity of multiverses to explain the extreme fine-tuning of this one; if it is infinitely possible for God to exist then He, of 100% certainty, must exist no matter how small the probability is of His existence in one of these other infinity of universes, and since He certainly must exist, then all possibilities in all universes automatically become subject to Him since He is, by definition, All Powerful. To illustrate the absurdity of what the materialists now consider their cutting edge science: The materialistic conjecture of an infinity of universes to explain the fine tuning of this one also insures the 100% probability of the existence of Pink Unicorns no matter how small the probability is of them existing. In fact a infinity of universes insures the existence of an infinity of Pink Unicorns an infinite number of times. Thus it is self-evident the materialists have painted themselves into a inescapable corner of logical absurdities in trying to find an escape from the Theistic implications we are finding for the fine-tuning of this universe. Considering Buying Into the Multiverse? Caveat Emptor http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/08/caveat_emptor_if_buying_multiverse.html Another escape from the theistic implications of the anthropic principle that materialists have postulated was a slightly constrained "string-theoretic" multiverse: Baron Münchhausen and the Self-Creating Universe: That the universe did not always exist is certain, even when multiverse scenarios are considered, since the mechanism of “eternal inflation” postulated to give rise to the multiverse is not eternal into the past (Borde, Guth& Vilenkin: Jan 2003).....design inferences are epistemically warranted when specified information of a certain complexity (high improbability) is observed, quite independent of whether we have an explanation for the intelligence behind the design. Here’s a particularly telling example: Roger Penrose has calculated that the entropy of the big bang itself, in order to give rise to the life-permitting universe we observe, must be fine-tuned to one part in e10exp(123)?10^10exp(123). Such complex specified conditions do not arise by chance, even in a string-theoretic multiverse with 10^500 different configurations of laws and constants, so an intelligent cause may be inferred. What is more, since it is the big bang itself that is fine-tuned to this degree, the intelligence that explains it as an effect must be logically prior to it and independent of it – in short, an immaterial intelligence that transcends matter, energy and space-time. So much, then, for a personified universe engineering its own bio-friendliness: the universe is not a free lunch and the intelligence of which it gives evidence is not incipient within it. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/06/baron_munchausen_and_the_selfc.html The following expert shows why the materialistic postulation of "string theory" is, for all intents and purposes of empirical science, a complete waste of time and energy: Not Even Wrong: The Failure of String Theory and the Search for Unity in Physical Law: Peter Woit, a PhD. in theoretical physics and a lecturer in mathematics at Columbia, points out—again and again—that string theory, despite its two decades of dominance, is just a hunch aspiring to be a theory. It hasn't predicted anything, as theories are required to do, and its practitioners have become so desperate, says Woit, that they're willing to redefine what doing science means in order to justify their labors. http://www.amazon.com/Not-Even-Wrong-Failure-Physical/dp/0465092756 Materialists also use to try to find a place for the blind chance of materialism to hide by proposing a universe which expands and contracts (recycles) infinitely. Even at first glance, the “recycling universe” conjecture suffers so many questions from the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) as to render it effectively implausible as a serious theory, but now the recycling universe conjecture has been totally crushed by the hard empirical evidence for a "flat" universe by the "BOOMERANG" experiment. Evidence against the oscillating universe- Michael Strauss - video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A9G8k02vpI Evidence For Flat Universe Reported By Boomerang Project http://www.lbl.gov/ScienceArticles/Archive/boomerang-flat.html A "flat universe", which is actually another surprisingly finely-tuned "coincidence" of the universe, means this universe, left to its own present course of accelerating expansion due to "Dark Energy", will continue to expand forever, thus fulfilling the thermodynamic equilibrium of the second law to its fullest extent (entropic "Heat Death" of the universe). The Future of the Universe excerpt: After all the black holes have evaporated, (and after all the ordinary matter made of protons has disintegrated, if protons are unstable), the universe will be nearly empty. Photons, neutrinos, electrons and positrons will fly from place to place, hardly ever encountering each other. It will be cold, and dark, and there is no known process which will ever change things. ---- Not a happy ending. http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys240/lectures/future/future.html Psalm 102:25-27 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will have no end. Big Rip Excerpt: The Big Rip is a cosmological hypothesis first published in 2003, about the ultimate fate of the universe, in which the matter of universe, from stars and galaxies to atoms and subatomic particles, are progressively torn apart by the expansion of the universe at a certain time in the future. Theoretically, the scale factor of the universe becomes infinite at a finite time in the future. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rip Thermodynamic Argument Against Evolution - Thomas Kindell - video Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI1RiTOQ4do Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgzWMccWOe8 Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQBjguaBueE Romans 8:18-21 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. The only hard evidence there is, the stunning precision found in the universal constants, points overwhelmingly to intelligent design by an infinitely powerful Creator who originally established what the unchanging universal constants of physics could and would do during the creation of the universe. The hard evidence left no room for the blind chance of natural laws in this universe. Thus, materialism was forced into appealing to an infinity of un-testable universes for it was left with no footing in this universe. These developments in science make it seem like materialism was cast into the abyss of nothingness in so far as rationally explaining the fine-tuning of the universe. Thus Nakashima as far as I am concerned you are without a reasonable excuse to cling to materialism as you do in your rejection of God.bornagain77
August 4, 2009
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PS: N T Wright's discussion here is also worth a careful reading.kairosfocus
August 4, 2009
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1 --> The Athenians, we observe, loved to entertain themselves intellectually -- especially at the expense of those they despised or dismissed as their intellectual inferiors. [Note the significance of "spermologos."] 2 --> In his opening remarks, the man who embodied and synthesised the future -- an Asiatic Jew, roman Citizen and Christian intellectual from a Greek city of learning -- went straight for the critical flaw in the classical humanism embraced by the intellectual leaders of that time. 3 --> In so doing, he highlighted how for centuries, the proud guardians of the West's intellectual heritage had to acknowledge through a public monument, their ignorance on the most important single point of knowledge: primary reality. 4 --> Instead of a foundation of ignorance, he put forward what was a novelty: the Prime Reality Himself is concerned enough to communicate with us, giving us a foundation on which we can soundly build; thus Paul exerted prophetic intellectual and cultural leadership. 5 --> And, the key communication from that day to now is this:
. . . Ac 17:30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
6 --> The call to metanoia is always a challenge: our attitudes, expectations, and thought are all under a microscope, and having been found sadly wanting [if we are honest with ourselves], need to be changed through a right-about turn. 7 --> And, in support of this call, the central warranting argument of the Christian message is offered: God's standard of assessment is Jesus of Nazareth, and he has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead (with 500+ eyewitnesses). [Cf Craig's excellent summary here, this survey from the classic Catholic encyclopedia, and this Google book online survey.] 8 --> As a bit of a footnote, observe, that the central warranting argument is not about who made the world and us in it, but about a breaking into our history in a way that has been transforming for 2,000 years, despirte all the many failings of Christians and Christendom that can ever so often be gleefully listed as an excuse to look no further. (But the standard of behaviour is not struggling Peters who pull swords and try to strike off heads -- Malchus ducked! -- then as the impulse of bravery fades cower in the face of servant girls. If it were, there would be nothing remarkable there to face! Instead, we must see and reckon with that ever astonishing figure, Jesus.) 9 --> Of course, ever honest Luke is straight: Paul was literally laughed out of court. But, there is a name listed among the despised minority: Dionysius. If you glance at a map of Athens, you will see its significance -- the road passing by the Areopagus (a limestone outcrop used as an ampitheatre; now bearing a bronze plaque of Paul's speech) is named after Paul, and its continuation past the Acropolis is called after Dionysius. 10 --> In short, the future did not belong to the superstitious masses who thought the stories of the gods and demons were all equally true; nor tot he philosophers who sneered that hey were all equally false; nor to the politicians who cynically decided they were all equally useful. Instead, it belonged to the apostle and his message of the god who loved, gave and calls us to repentant faith and blessed hope and transformation in Christ. ____________ And so, we all have a choice or two to make. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 4, 2009
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Nakashima-san: An interesting remark (which is appreciated as a moment of self-disclosure), and an even more interesting list of individuals. I would wonder about adding: Mother Theresa of Calcutta, Chuck Colson of Prison Fellowship, Billy and Frank Graham, Charles G Finney, Francis of Assisi and Thomas Aquinas, to name a few. (In short, your list is a bit one-sided and emphasises one aspect of life: regardless of worldview or religious commitments, we all struggle with moral challenges. A list of "great" atheists of modern times and their misdeeds would be interesting indeed . . . ) Now, it so happens too that I have had occasion to correspond (somewhat of an exchange in fact on thermodynamics related matters) with the late Mr Morris. I found him a very honest and decent Christian gentleman. He may be wrong on his science (he now knows for sure one way or the other) but he was definitely not a poseur. Similarly, while I have not had occasion to meet or personally correspond with Mr Dembski, I have taken a serious look at what he and others have had to say. They have a serious point; just, one that cuts across the line taken by the dominant school of thought in our day. In particular, I find that the only credible, empirically supported explanation fro prescriptive and data descriptive codes and languages, algorithms using same, associated complex algorithmically functional information and machinery to physically instantiate and express such, is intelligence. And, given the following excerpt from the most under-appreciated great historian of the C1, I do not usually expect that the thought that sways the future will be easily welcomed by the guardians of the intellectual status quo: _______________ >> 19 . . . [the Stoics and Epicureans] took [Paul of Tarsus] and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean." 21(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.) 22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. 24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times [= kairous . . . ] set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' 29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent [ = metanoiein]. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead." 32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, "We want to hear you again on this subject." 33At that, Paul left the Council. 34A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others. >> _________________ { . . . ]kairosfocus
August 4, 2009
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Mr Bornagain77, I was deeply religious for about 25 years of my life. I accepted Jesus into my heart in 1975. (Should I change my name to bornagain75?) I have no desire to deny God. It would be deeply satisfying and comforting to find the evidence that would let me glorify God. I haven't seen it yet. I certainly have not seen it in the faux sciences of American Christianity, from Mary Baker Eddy to Henry Morris to William Dembski. As Alice B. Toklas famously said of Oakland, "There is no there, there." I personally do not see an affirmation and glorification of God in theologians making puerile Flash animations, school board members lying under oath, astronomers failing to do astronomy, molecular biologists failing to do molecular biology, or mathematicians failing to math, except in Jello. Who is properly fulfilling the verse, "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings to search it out."? Neil Shubin. Francis Collins. Lynn Margulis. But then, who's talking about God, anyway? I don't take His Name in vain by raising it on this blog. I'm here to have a good time, talking about ID, FSCI, FCSI and macroevolution. I'm not troubled by the religious origins or otherwise of evolution - I only believe in the change of allele frequencies over time, not evolution! So chill out pilgrim. I won't apologise for not fitting in your categories, just leave you with this wisdom - "Your Princess is in another castle!"Nakashima
August 3, 2009
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Mr Bornagain77, Are you trying to support this quote: “…but Natural Selection reduces genetic information and we know this from all the Genetic Population studies that we have…” with studies of artificially bred dogs and industrial agriculture?? It is a good thing evolution is more than just natural selection, isn't it? If we didn't have 47-odd sources of variation to overbalance selection, we'd still be slime molds!Nakashima
August 3, 2009
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Nak you can also answer the question of "why is it so important for you to deny God? Of what benefit is there in it for you? Do you think living a lie will give you more money or something? evanescence - lies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxHP9-fEuRkbornagain77
August 3, 2009
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Nakashima, the entire spectrum of dog sub-species have been found to have less genetic diversity than the parent wolf species: .. the mean sequence divergence in dogs, 2.06, was almost identical to the 2.10 (sequence divergence) found within wolves. (please note the sequence divergence is slightly smaller for the entire spectrum of dogs than for wolves) http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/90/1/71.pdf Biodiversity is essential for our existence: Excerpt: Unfortunately, industrial agriculture has caused a dramatic reduction of genetic diversity within the animal and plant species typically used for food. "We found an enormous amount of diversity within and between the African populations, and we found much less diversity in non-African populations," Tishkoff told attendees today (Jan. 22) at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Anaheim. "Only a small subset of the diversity in Africa is found in Europe and the Middle East, and an even narrower set is found in American Indians." Tishkoff; Andrew Clark, Penn State; Kenneth Kidd, Yale University; Giovanni Destro-Bisol, University "La Sapienza," Rome, and Himla Soodyall and Trefor Jenkins, WITS University, South Africa, looked at three locations on DNA samples from 13 to 18 populations in Africa and 30 to 45 populations in the remainder of the world.- I wonder what Hitler would have thought of that study? “When first cousins marry, their children have a reduction of life expectancy of nearly 10 years. Why is this? It is because inbreeding exposes the genetic mistakes within the genome (slightly detrimental recessive mutations) that have not yet had time to “come to the surface”. Inbreeding is like a sneak preview, or foreshadowing, of where we are going to be genetically as a whole as a species in the future. The reduced life expectancy of inbred children reflects the overall aging of the genome that has accumulated thus far, and reveals the hidden reservoir of genetic damage that have been accumulating in our genomes." Sanford; Genetic Entropy; page 147 This following study is interesting in that it shows the principle of Genetic Entropy being obeyed for the estimated 60,000 year old anatomically modern humans found in Australia: Ancient DNA and the origin of modern humans: John H. Relethford Excerpt: Adcock et al. (7) clearly demonstrate the actual extinction of an ancient mtDNA lineage belonging to an anatomically modern human, because this lineage is not found in living Australians. Although the fossil evidence provides evidence of the continuity of modern humans over the past 60,000 years,,,, Natural Selection Reduces Genetic Information - No Beneficial Mutations - Spetner - Denton - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdZYguRuzn0 Natural Selection Reduces Genetic Information - Dr. Georgia Purdom - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izPzEgRtPKIbornagain77
August 3, 2009
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Diffaxial, If you have seen this list before, Then why have you clung to the materialistic philosophy when it is so vacuous of predictive power? I would think that a man would find it a very wonderful thing to see that God is vindicated in such fashion...Does materialism promise you anything besides a purposeless existence before you die? Why would anyone be attracted to such a horrid philosophy especially when the current evidence is crushing it? Myself I find the promises of God to be wonderful and of no comparison whatsoever to your philosophy. Maybe I am missing something,,,could you please explain why you are attracted to the lie of materialism?bornagain77
August 3, 2009
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Mr Bornagain77, Expelled is not a peer reviewed journal, ne? Parlimentarian Giertych can publish such a theory if he has the evidence to back it up, otherwise it shows up in the crank aisle on YouTube. Capisce?Nakashima
August 3, 2009
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Jerry @ 218:
Capice?
What do you get when you cross a Godfather with a philosopher? An offer you can't understand.Diffaxial
August 3, 2009
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BornAgain77 @ 277:
These predictions, and the evidence we have found, can be tested against one another within the scientific method...
Does theism predict recycling? Because this is about the 20th time I've seen this list in one form or another.Diffaxial
August 3, 2009
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"hat your accurate description of intelligent design as lacking a model, as postulating one-off events that are anomalous relative to natural law, and as invoking an agent about which nothing is known neatly describes why ID isn’t, and can’t be, an empirical science." And I told you very clearly why it could and how you try to distort things. Because ID does not base its science on a model does not mean that it is not science. So your using my assessment of ID is non sequitur. Capice?jerry
August 3, 2009
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bornagain77: Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils
Even if there's just one, logic dictates that such "transitionals" exist. Care to discuss H. erectus in depth?deadman_932
August 3, 2009
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Diffaxial states: "It is fair to say that it is an assumption (not a conclusion) that the origin of life is a natural phenomenon that has occurred without the intervention of an agent. I certainly assume that, but don’t claim to “know” that." How reasonable is Diffaxial materialistic presumption? Well lets subject Diffaxial's materialism to rigorous scrutiny: I've heard someone say, "Science is materialism." Yet science clearly is not materialism. Materialism is a philosophy which makes the dogmatic assertion that only blind material processes generated everything around us, including ourselves. Materialism is thus in direct opposition to Theism which holds that God purposely created us in His image. Furthermore science, or more particularly the scientific method, in reality, only cares to relentlessly pursue the truth and could care less if the answer is a materialistic one or not. This is especially true in these questions of origins, since we are indeed questioning the materialistic philosophy itself. i.e. We are asking the scientific method to answer this very specific question, "Did God create us or did blind material processes create us?" When we realize this is the actual question we are seeking an answer to within the scientific method, then of course it is readily apparent we cannot impose strict materialistic answers onto the scientific method prior to investigation. In fact when looking at the evidence in this light we find out many interesting things which scientists, who have been blinded by the philosophy of materialism, miss. This is because the materialistic and Theistic philosophy make, and have made, several natural contradictory predictions about what evidence we will find. These predictions, and the evidence we have found, can be tested against one another within the scientific method. For a quick overview here are a few: 1.Materialism predicted an eternal universe, Theism predicted a created universe. - Big Bang points to a creation event. - 2. Materialism predicted time had an infinite past, Theism predicted time had a creation - Time was created in the Big Bang. - 3. Materialism predicted space has always existed, Theism predicted space had a creation (Psalm 89:12) - Space was created in the Big Bang. - 4. Materialism predicted at the base of physical reality would be a solid indestructible material particle which rigidly obeyed the rules of time and space, Theism predicted the basis of this reality was created by a infinitely powerful and transcendent Being who is not limited by time and space - Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our reality which blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. - 5. Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe, Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time - Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. - 6. Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind - Every transcendent universal constant scientists can measure (93 so far) is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. - 7. Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe - Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe. - 8. Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made - ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a "biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.". - 9. Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth - The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 10. Materialism predicted a very simple first life form which accidentally came from "a warm little pond". Theism predicted God created life - The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 11. Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11) - We find evidence for complex photo-synthetic life in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth - 12. Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life to be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse life to appear abruptly in the seas in God's fifth day of creation. - The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short "geologic resolution time" in the Cambrian seas. - 13. Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record - Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record, then rapid diversity within the group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 14. Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth - Man himself is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. - As you can see when we remove the artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy, from the scientific method, and look carefully at the predictions of both the materialistic philosophy and the Theistic philosophy, side by side, we find the scientific method is very good at pointing us in the direction of Theism as the true explanation. - When looking at the evidence in this light, I would say that Diffaxial is clearly misguided in his materialistic assumption as far as these questions of origins are concerned.bornagain77
August 3, 2009
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Jerry @ 210:
You are running wild with a comment without trying to have a discussion on it.
Running wild? I've made two assertions on this thread. - That your accurate description of intelligent design as lacking a model, as postulating one-off events that are anomalous relative to natural law, and as invoking an agent about which nothing is known neatly describes why ID isn't, and can't be, an empirical science. - That Joseph's assertion that "non-telic" evolutionary theories make no testable predictions is mistaken. That is blankly refuted by a paper describing a "non-telic" mechanism which gave rise to predictions that were subsequently tested. If that is your idea of running wild, you must be a cheap date :) UB @ 173 and 200:
What empirical lab results has science used confirm that Life began by chance? What are the predictions of those lab results?
These questions aren't remotely relevant to my assertions. Whether there are a thousand laboratory findings with bearing upon the natural origins of life, one, or none doesn't change the fact that countless empirical studies similar to my exemplar above test predictions that arise from current "non telic" evolutionary models - models of the sort that Jerry correctly indicates ID does not and cannot generate. You are incorrect to state that it is a "foundational conclusion" that life arose randomly. It is fair to say that it is an assumption (not a conclusion) that the origin of life is a natural phenomenon that has occurred without the intervention of an agent. I certainly assume that, but don't claim to "know" that. No one knows how life originated, and therefore any postulated origin must remain speculative for the present. I do expect that state of affairs to change, although not in my lifetime.Diffaxial
August 3, 2009
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jerry:
Both Dembski and Behe make predictions. Both Behe and Dembski use scientific methods to evaluate those predictions.
I'm curious -- what predictions has Dembski made and tested?R0b
August 3, 2009
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Natural Selection, Genetic Mutations and Information - EXPELLED - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOWfmuJ-MdYbornagain77
August 3, 2009
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How bout this one nak, “…but Natural Selection reduces genetic information and we know this from all the Genetic Population studies that we have…” Maciej Marian Giertych – Population Geneticist – member of the European Parliament – EXPELLEDbornagain77
August 3, 2009
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Mr Joseph, Yes, the E=mc^2 of evolution! If only population genetics had a similar inequality that fit on a t-shirt...Nakashima
August 3, 2009
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Wait!!! Stop the presses I have headline news!!!! The "great" prediction of natural selction: Some organisms may outlive and out-reproduce others in the same population under certain circumstances.Joseph
August 3, 2009
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"The fact remains that this study exemplifies the empirical test of a theoretical model within evolutionary biology, something that Joe claims doesn’t occur. The sort of study that is impossible within the framework of ID, due to the limitations Jerry has correctly identified." You are running wild with a comment without trying to have a discussion on it. You want to disparage ID and that is your only objective. If you try to have a discussion you will learn something. But I suspect you already know it and just are blustering with nonsense. Both Dembski and Behe make predictions. Both Behe and Dembski use scientific methods to evaluate those predictions. One uses computer models and the other uses the analysis of genomic information. or protein interactions. Now you can say it is bad research or the research has not gotten anywhere but you cannot say it is not making predictions or attempting to investigate the physical world. Please cut out this nonsense about ID not making predictions or generating hypotheses. No one is disputing micro evolution as a valid discipline. We are disputing macro evolution as a valid discipline and because of its lack of validity it should be removed from biology textbooks and biology curriculum in both the colleges and high schools. In college textbooks I could see it being referenced in a side bar as a speculative hypothesis that has no current backing.jerry
August 3, 2009
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A key prediction made by theories of density-dependent competition is that resource overlap should increase the intensity of competition.
Except where cooperation rules the day.Joseph
August 3, 2009
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Well Khan, For what it is worth in my limited experience, I looked at the paper: Directed evolution of ATP binding proteins: http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:L9_HTLVHP-UJ:genetics.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/publications/Szostak_pdfs/Cho_Szostak_2006_ChemBio.pdf+Directed+Evolution+of+ATP+Binding+Proteins+from+a+Zinc+Finger+Domain+by+Using+mRNA&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a and was left wondering what new functional information did he produce,,,Though the paper seems to suggest that functional protein domains may be easier to find than Doug Axe suggested in his paper (10^77), The paper does not address the generation of functional information/complexity that we find in life i.e. no new irreducibly complex functions were cited, only new proteins with, what I believe was, an affinity to bind with ATP were found: Evolution vs. ATP synthesis and DNA complexity http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=7087a756ddd8695ea146 As well in criticism of the paper,, The experiment was conducted "in vitro" (outside the cell) and the so called "evolution" of the protein was merely an improvement of efficiency of the so called "novel" proteins to bind to ATP, needless to say,,, This type of "evolution" would not be tolerated "in a living cell" for: The Ribosome: Perfectionist Protein-maker Trashes Errors Excerpt: The enzyme machine that translates a cell's DNA code into the proteins of life is nothing if not an editorial perfectionist...the ribosome exerts far tighter quality control than anyone ever suspected over its precious protein products... To their further surprise, the ribosome lets go of error-laden proteins 10,000 times faster than it would normally release error-free proteins, a rate of destruction that Green says is "shocking" and reveals just how much of a stickler the ribosome is about high-fidelity protein synthesis. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090107134529.htm As well when we find a protein, and DNA, or protein machine, in a cell it is "optimal" already: Bacterial Flagellum - A Sheer Wonder Of Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNi0YXYadg0 Biologist Howard Berg at Harvard calls the Bacterial Flagellum “the most efficient machine in the universe." The flagellum has steadfastly resisted all attempts to elucidate its plausible origination by Darwinian processes, much less has anyone ever actually evolved a flagellum from scratch in the laboratory; Genetic Entropy Refutation of Nick Matzke's TTSS (type III secretion system) to Flagellum Evolutionary Narrative: excerpt: .....Comparative genomic analysis show that flagellar genes have been differentially lost in endosymbiotic bacteria of insects. Only proteins involved in protein export within the flagella assembly pathway (type III secretion system and the basal-body) have been kept... http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/msn153v1 Bacterial Flagella - A Paradigm for Design - Scott Minnich - video http://www.veritas.org/media/talks/92 Genetic analysis of coordinate flagellar and type III - Minnich and Meyer Molecular machines display a key signature or hallmark of design, namely, irreducible complexity. In all irreducibly complex systems in which the cause of the system is known by experience or observation, intelligent design or engineering played a role the origin of the system. Warning: Do NOT Mutate This Protein Complex: - June 2009 Excerpt: In each cell of your body there is a complex of 8 or more proteins bound together called the BBSome. This protein complex, discovered in 2007, should not be disturbed. Here’s what happens when it mutates: “A homozygous mutation in any BBSome subunit (except BBIP10) will make you blind, obese and deaf, will obliterate your sense of smell, will make you grow extra digits and toes and cause your kidneys to fail.”... the BBSome is “highly conserved” (i.e., unevolved) in all ciliated organisms from single-celled green algae to humans,..." William Bialek - Professor Of Physics - Princeton University: Excerpt: "A central theme in my research is an appreciation for how well things “work” in biological systems. It is, after all, some notion of functional behavior that distinguishes life from inanimate matter, and it is a challenge to quantify this functionality in a language that parallels our characterization of other physical systems. Strikingly, when we do this (and there are not so many cases where it has been done!), the performance of biological systems often approaches some limits set by basic physical principles. While it is popular to view biological mechanisms as an historical record of evolutionary and developmental compromises, these observations on functional performance point toward a very different view of life as having selected a set of near optimal mechanisms for its most crucial tasks." Biophysicist Hubert Yockey determined that natural selection would have to explore 1.40 x 10^70 different genetic codes to discover the optimal universal genetic code that is found in nature. The maximum amount of time available for it to originate is 6.3 x 10^15 seconds. Natural selection would have to evaluate roughly 10^55 codes per second to find the one that is optimal. Put simply, natural selection lacks the time necessary to find the optimal universal genetic code we find in nature. (Fazale Rana, ----The Cell's Design - 2008 - page 177) Here, we show that the universal genetic code can efficiently carry arbitrary parallel codes much better than the vast majority of other possible genetic codes.... the present findings support the view that protein-coding regions can carry abundant parallel codes. http://genome.cshlp.org/content/17/4/405.full The data compression of some stretches of human DNA is estimated to be up to 12 codes thick (Trifonov, 1989). (This is well beyond the complexity of any computer code ever written by man). John Sanford - Genetic Entropy Collective evolution and the genetic code - 2006: Excerpt: The genetic code could well be optimized to a greater extent than anything else in biology and yet is generally regarded as the biological element least capable of evolving. Ode to the Code Brian Hayes The few variant codes known in protozoa and organelles are thought to be offshoots of the standard code, but there is no evidence that the changes to the codon table offer any adaptive advantage. In fact, Freeland, Knight, Landweber and Hurst found that the variants are inferior or at best equal to the standard code. It seems hard to account for these facts without retreating at least part of the way back to the frozen-accident theory, conceding that the code was subject to change only in a former age of miracles, which we'll never see again in the modern world. The coding system used for living beings is optimal from an engineering standpoint. Werner Gitt, - In The Beginning Was Information - p. 95 Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software we've ever created. Bill Gates, The Road Ahead, Penguin, London, 1996, p. 188 Deciphering Design in the Genetic Code Excerpt: When researchers calculated the error-minimization capacity of one million randomly generated genetic codes, they discovered that the error-minimization values formed a distribution where the naturally occurring genetic code's capacity occurred outside the distribution. Researchers estimate the existence of 10 possible genetic codes possessing the same type and degree of redundancy as the universal genetic code. All of these codes fall within the error-minimization distribution. This finding means that of the 10 possible genetic codes, few, if any, have an error-minimization capacity that approaches the code found universally in nature. DNA Optimized for Photostability Excerpt: These nucleobases maximally absorb UV-radiation at the same wavelengths that are most effectively shielded by ozone. Moreover, the chemical structures of the nucleobases of DNA allow the UV-radiation to be efficiently radiated away after it has been absorbed, restricting the opportunity for damage. "No man-made program comes close to the technical brilliance of even Mycoplasmal genetic algorithms. Mycoplasmas are the simplest known organism with the smallest known genome, to date. How was its genome and other living organisms' genomes programmed?" - David L. Abel and Jack T. Trevors, “Three Subsets of Sequence Complexity and Their Relevance to Biopolymeric Information,” Theoretical Biology & Medical Modelling, Vol. 2, 11 August 2005, page 8 Thus khan, though the paper may be of interest for finding how many functional protein domains truly exist in reality,,,it clearly has not addressed the problem of functional information generation in which the protein would then form with other proteins to produce a new useful molecular function. It truly was a stretch for them to call this "evolution" by the way since it was not actually in a living cell i.e. They started with weakly binding "novel" proteins and increased the binding affinity, and then say "Wah La" we evolved something". This is similar to GA,,,but that is another matter...bornagain77
August 3, 2009
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The above cited instance is favorable to baraminology. IOW what you say is false. Try focusing on the arrival of the fittest, not their survival.Joseph
August 3, 2009
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What I am saying is that you cannot, and have not, provided a testable hypothesis pertaining to non-telic processes.
I know what you are saying. It simply isn't true. In the above-cited instance, density-dependent competition, and the prediction that competition should lead to density-dependent natural selection, denote non-telic processes and the predictions that arise therefrom. Further, the authors empirically tested predictions arising from their model of that non-telic process. Therefore your statement is false.Diffaxial
August 3, 2009
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Diffaxial, Moving goalpost is not the issue. In fact, the very image (and your mention of it) is a conveinent distraction from the issue. You are asking for empirical evidence for a historical event - without the slightest consideration of methodologies. Think: Lyell, Whewell, Scriven, and Lipton. - - - - - - - - Now, Since science has fundamentally concluded that Life began by chance, what empirical lab results has science used to confirm their conclusion? If there are not any, then from a methodoligical standpoint, why not? Also, what candidates are on the list of potential causes?Upright BiPed
August 3, 2009
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12
13
PM
PDT
1 4 5 6 7 8 13

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