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Be Afraid

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For nearly 75 years the Holocaust has been used as an example of evil so clear as to be beyond reasonable dispute.  It was useful as a counter to arguments for moral nihilism such as we get on these pages so often, because very few people were willing to stand up and say, “I personally don’t agree with Holocausts, but of course that’s just my opinion; I can’t say a contrary opinion is necessarily wrong.”

That is not the case anymore as the following exchange between me and Bob O’H demonstrates:

Bob O’H: But doesn’t [Becky’s Lesson] actually support the materialists’ assertion? The story shows a situation where an act that the reader regards as grossly immoral is shown as being morally acceptable in another society.

 

Barry:  Your second sentence is almost right. It should read:  The story shows a situation where an act that the reader regards as KNOWS FOR AN ABSOLUTE CERTAIN FACT IS grossly immoral is shown as being morally acceptable in another society.

Thus, if “morality comes from society” is true, it can lead to a situation in which known immoral acts are moral. The materialist is then on the horns of a dilemma. He must admit that under certain circumstances the Holocaust would be good (note, “good,” not merely “regarded as good”) if everyone in the society believes that to be the case. Or he can admit that since that is patently absurd, the premise “morality comes from society” is false.

 

Bob:  Well, no. If I’m a moral subjectivist and I’m being precise, I can say that I regard certain acts are good, and I can say that societies (or other groups) regard these acts as good, but I don’t have any external objective standard by which to say that they actually are good.

Given the choice between (1) embracing the patently absurd proposition that under any conceivable circumstances the Holocaust could be morally good; and (2) rejecting the moral subjectivism his materialism demands, Bob casually clings to his materialism and embraces the absurdity.

Bob is a teacher.  God help his students.  God help the rest of us as well, because Bob speaks for many, and that should make you very afraid.

Critical Rationalist is even scarier.  At least Bob tries to ground his view that the Holocaust was evil in something, even if that something (subjective preference) in practice turns out to be nothing.  CR insists there is absolutely no justification for the proposition “the Holocaust was evil.”

Nietzsche speaks of such:

What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing?

“Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing?”  Yes, says CR.

If CR is right, then Camus’ observation that the only interesting question is whether to kill yourself in the face of the patent absurdity of life without meaning has real force.

UPDATE:

Bob O’H doubles down.  In comment 1 in the combox, he says it would be “arrogant” for him to say no one could ever see any circumstances under which they would consider this to be good:

 

 

 

Comments
The bottom line is that everyone who hasn't been brainwashed by some sociopathically driven ideology would never believe the Holocaust was anything other than pure evil. Period. Unless you are a sociopath yourself, you have to sear your natural conscience to avoid what everybody knows from birth. The girl in the story was still not completely seared and her conscience was leaking through. Her father refused to be seared. He had the guts to call a spade a spade in the face of persecution from the sociopath ideologues.mike1962
March 9, 2018
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steve_h:
I have no problem saying that the Holocaust would be evil at all times, places etc
Then you believe in at least one objective transcendent moral truth. Tell me steve, where did that objective moral truth come from?Barry Arrington
March 9, 2018
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I have no problem saying that the Holocaust would be evil at all times, places etc because to me that's the sort of thing that the word evil was coined to describe. We agree that Holocausts are evil but I think we disagree on many of the things that you would also want to describe using the same word - Same sex marriage, consensual sex between partners of the same sex etc. There are also cases where I would use the word "evil" but you not. For instance, many christians believe that people who don't accept Christ as their saviour will be rightly punished in hell for all of eternity. As I understand it Jewish people do not accept Jesus as their saviour so the obvious conclusion, if the stories are to be believed, is that after dying in the death camps they went on to something much much worse. I would call that evil, but most christians won't be losing any sleep over it. They might even come up with appalling CS Lewis-style justifications for it such as "Everyone in hell is there because they chose to be there". Yeah right, just like they chose to be in the death camps beforehand. I suspect others might argue that the decision to punish them forever for the "sin" of not being perfect like God was OK because it was taken thousands of years ago. Some things much worse than a Holocaust are OK at some places or some times to them. Scary.steve_h
March 9, 2018
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OK, J-Mac. Put it to us plainly. Do you state unequivocally that at all times, in all places, and under all circumstances the Holocaust would be evil? Prediction: J-Mac will bob and weave. Since you are very .... person Barry I'm forced to ask you what is your definition of holocaust? Are you referring to WWII or the Canaanite extermination as well? BTW: I don't care much about your Christian like predictions and your typical Christian like attitude... You can keep it to yourself. A/mats, Closet A/mats and rest of the reasonable people would have no problem to identify your comments as well as BA77,TWSYF even if your were to change your identity... Your type of "Christianity" is easily distinguishable by one trait... Do you know what it is? UD Editors: "Prediction: J-Mac will bob and weave." Prediction confirmed. For people who pride themselves on their willingness to examine all beliefs and gaze into the abyss unflinchingly, the A-Mats who post on this site are a generally gutless lot. J-Mac
March 9, 2018
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OK, J-Mac. Put it to us plainly. Do you state unequivocally that at all times, in all places, and under all circumstances the Holocaust would be evil? Prediction: J-Mac will "bob"* and weave. ______ *pun intendedBarry Arrington
March 9, 2018
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The soldier on the picture is wearing a belt with the buckle that is imprinted with the following words: "Gott mit uns" I don't know German but I think Gott must mean Darwin, one would expect, as Barry must have done his background check.. I bet the rest must mean something like 'trust in" or close to it"... I'm sure that if it is not true, Barry would look like a moron who doesn't even check the background of his own witnesses.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_unsJ-Mac
March 9, 2018
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My question is: why do a/mats accept there is an objective science standard by which ID fails to be science, but there cannot be an objective morality? That is very arbitrary. The only argument a/mats offer is that societies disagree. But societies disagree regarding mathematics. The Pythagoreans thought irrational numbers did not exist. But they were wrong. There is no reason people cannot also be wrong about moral claims. Underlying all of this is the Holocaust. There is a popular opinion that future world wars and genocides can be averted if no one is dogmatic about anything of a social nature. Relativism is used to extinguish violent prejudice. This is the root of modern tolerance. However, the reason the allies won is precisely because they were dogmatic about justice. The only way to fight any kind of tyranny is by being dogmatically and bravely just. So, the solution to prejudice is not relativism, but the right kind of dogmatism.EricMH
March 9, 2018
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Does everyone see what Bob is doing here? He refuses to state unequivocally that at all times, in all places, and under all circumstances the Holocaust would be evil. He gets called on his monstrous nihilistic Holocaust-enabling moral views, and he pretends his views were twisted. OK, Bob. Put it to us plainly. Do you state unequivocally that at all times, in all places, and under all circumstances the Holocaust would be evil? Prediction, Bob will say that IN HIS VIEW, at all times, in all places, and under all circumstances the Holocaust would be evil, but it would be arrogant to say Himmler was necessarily wrong if he thought it was good. You seriously make me want to puke Bob. I'm not kidding. When I read your "arrogant" sentence, I could feel the gerd rising in my throat. I have updated the post to note that Bob has doubled down. God help us; it is worse than I thought, and that is saying a lot.Barry Arrington
March 9, 2018
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Given the choice between (1) embracing the patently absurd proposition that under any conceivable circumstances the Holocaust could be morally good;
Oh what a surprise, my views are being twisted. I can't see any circumstances under which I would see the Holocaust (or a similar action) as being morally good, but that is my own subjective opinion. I wouldn't want to be arrogant enough to say whether anyone else could see any circumstances under which they would consider genocide to be good.Bob O'H
March 9, 2018
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