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Bowling with God: The Problem of Theistic Evolution

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Laszlo BenczeRecently, our philosopher photographer friend Laszlo Bencze wrote on why theistic evolution is incoherent, attracting some considerable interest and discussion. He has written to say that he would like to follow up with a shoutout to William Lane Craig, and here it is.

Editor’s note: The topic got started with “Is apologist William Lane Craig a follower of Darwin?” (And if not, wherein does he differ from him in a coherent way)?

The theologian William Lane Craig, writing in the book Intelligent Design: William A. Dembski & Michael Ruse in Dialogue, has this to say in defense of theistic evolution:

[The evolutionist] may agree that there are in nature no fundamental telic [goal-oriented] causes, while maintaining that nature itself is constructed with the end in view of the evolution and existence of intelligent life. The view commonly known as theistic evolution would be a religious version of this perspective. (page 62)

A designer with knowledge of such counterfactuals could choose to arrange the appropriate boundary conditions and constellation of natural laws that God knew would lead, via a blind evolutionary process, to intelligent life. For these reasons we cannot treat dismissively the theistic evolutionary perspective. (page 63)

The perspective Craig argues for is what I characterize as the Bowling with God point of view. If God were to bowl a game with you he might make the game more fair by agreeing not to monkey with the ball or pins while they were in motion. He might agree to launch the ball just as you would and remain absolutely “hands off” after that. But because he is God and has perfect knowledge of the lane, ball, pins, and all subtle environmental factors, every time he let go of the bowling ball, he would know its absolute trajectory and precisely how each pin would respond and thus be able to create a strike or (more impressively) any spare he chose. He would be in perfect control of his game even though all the random factors played out without interference from him.

File:Bowling ball and pins.jpg

Could this be considered a fair game? Of course not! You’re playing against God! The score of the game frame by frame is exactly what God wants it to be. You’ve been set up. The situation is the same in Craig’s theistic evolution scenario. If God fools around with initial conditions such that they will result in the outcome he desires, it makes no difference that he agrees not to interfere as the process plays out. The deck is stacked. God is in control. This is not evolution as Darwin or any of his current acolytes see it. It is simply an astoundingly subtle form of creation. Call it “Initial Conditions Creation” not theistic evolution.

It’s not surprising that Craig and countless others would want to hitch a ride on evolution. The word carries immense metaphysical power as no other science word does. It is for this reason that I think it is important to come to grips with it even though it is often used in ways so ambiguous and contradictory as to defy definition. Because of its power, it is a word which religious people of all stripes including deists, theists, crystal power enthusiasts, Catholics, Protestants, communicators with the dead, agnostics, and atheists all seek to co-opt and use to promote their own particular agendas.

Earlier this year a professor of theology at Wheaton College vehemently objected to my saying that the term theistic evolution was a flat out contradiction. He mocked me as a mind reader because none of the many self-described theistic evolutionists he knew at Wheaton happened to see any contradiction. Because several respondents to my previous post argue along the same lines, I shall try to present my case as clearly as possible.

File:Williamlanecraig.jpg
William Lane Craig (1949-)

First of all, the bare term “evolution” is a protean term. It is used to mean anything from “change over time” to “the way God creates” to “a purely materialistic process based on random mistakes chosen by natural selection.” No wonder the term can be so hugely confusing and the source of vehement argument. However, there is only one usage of evolution that wields immense metaphysical power. It is the version which says speciation proceeds by a process undirected by any conscious agent (no God), operating via the spontaneous appearance of mistakes (random mutations), and filtered by natural selection (elimination of the unfit). This is the standard Darwinian or neo-Darwinian usage, which is how current biologists understand and use the term.

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Of course Darwin objected to such theistic misunderstandings. As he so often and so patiently explained, his theory needed no help from any god or spirit and if a god had to be injected into it to make it work, it would be a worthless theory.

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This purely materialistic version is the one which revolutionized the foundations of Western thought when it first appeared in Darwin’s On the Origin of Species. Even though Darwin did not use the word in early editions of Origin (it first appeared in the writings of Herbert Spencer), by the 1870s “evolution” was the accepted way of referring to his theory. Almost immediately after the 1859 publication of Origin, people began explaining evolution as a guided process. Often it was God doing the guiding, sometimes a “vital spirit” or “life force.”

Of course Darwin objected to such theistic misunderstandings. As he so often and so patiently explained, his theory needed no help from any god or spirit and if a god had to be injected into it to make it work, it would be a worthless theory. The whole point of his book was to present an overwhelming case for why evolution worked automatically, without guidance from any conscious entity. Eventually the guided versions of evolution were swept away and by the 1940s only the pure Darwinian version was taken seriously in scientific circles.

It’s easy to see why Darwin’s theory of evolution was so revolutionary. Before Darwin, clerics, biologists, and laymen all agreed that nothing so complex as a living thing could be produced without the efforts of a conscious agent, generally agreed upon as God. After Darwin just about every intellectual, including clerics, agreed that generation of new species could happen on its own without the efforts of God. In fact, as more and more people fell under Darwin’s influence it became clear to them that not only was God unnecessary in creating life but that God was entirely unnecessary, nothing more than a human concept that had run its course. In this way the impulse towards methodological naturalism received a huge boost from Darwin, a boost which has accelerated steadily right into the present.

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No longer did serious thinkers have to put on the hair shirt of humility and kneel in awe before the works of a Mind far greater than theirs. Now they themselves were gods standing high above creation armed with the long sought key to understanding—evolution.

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“Evolution” became a word with which to slay any lingering remnants of a religious tradition in science. Evolution could even explain human behavior, ethics, the origins of war, and the intricate dance of relationship between man and woman all without any reference to a creator. It was so fresh, so enlightening, so wonderfully scientific! No longer did serious thinkers have to put on the hair shirt of humility and kneel in awe before the works of a Mind far greater than theirs. Now they themselves were gods standing high above creation armed with the long sought key to understanding—evolution.

Mind you, I’ve engaged in a bit of rhetorical hyperbole here for the sake of simplicity. Of course there were always dissidents from the evolutionary program, some of them brilliant thinkers in their own right. But—and this is important to remember—they were not in the main stream. They were snipers, gadflies, curmudgeons, or eccentrics firing from the sidelines. Some of them, seeing the power of the word, chose to hijack it. They gave it private meaning. They explained that their version of evolution was not materialistic but indeed allowed for direct action from God.

Some of these were sincere, good natured people like a pastor I met at Wheaton College who mentioned evolution frequently and favorably in his sermons. He explained that the word is so widespread in society that he must use it whenever he preaches on the book of Genesis in order to make his sermons congenial to science-minded listeners. But he said he was always careful to explain that evolution as he used it did not describe a random, material process. I responded that by so preaching he was sowing much confusion. You can define a cow as a horse, but why bother with this verbal stunt when everyone else uses the terms in the usual way?

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Is there any reason to conflate evolution with creation other than to curry favor with evolutionists? And if you do, won’t they assume you have accepted their world view? And won’t they be upset when they find out your use of the word means the opposite of their use?

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Is there any reason to conflate evolution with creation other than to curry favor with evolutionists? And if you do, won’t they assume you have accepted their world view? And won’t they be upset when they find out your use of the word means the opposite of their use? As for innocent bystanders who listen to such evolution praising sermons, won’t they assume that materialism and atheism have received your blessing?

Here’s what I propose. Let’s leave evolution to materialists. Let them have exclusive rights to the word. Let them use it to describe the process of unintelligent design, fueled by mistakes, and devoid of God. Let their proposal, untainted by theistic emendations, stand or fall.

Let those of us who do believe that a purely material program is impossible use other terms to describe our views. Creationism unfortunately has degenerated into a term of pure mockery. Any use of it implies some sort of backwoods Christianity that may involve handling snakes.

Fortunately there is one term which has gained currency and which makes honest reference to its world view. That term is “intelligent design” and it covers a very broad swath of opinion regarding God’s creative style. It can be applied to God creating all living things in six days. It can equally well be applied to God’s creative activities over four billion years. In fact, it could also cover instantaneous creation or creation lasting quadrillions of years. Time makes no difference. The number of steps doesn’t matter. The precise way in which things come to be—whether they poof into existence in a flash or whether their genetic structure is modified through a succession of generations—is also inconsequential. It links two sound words frequently used in the sciences and engineering. Despite the best efforts of evolutionists to sully the term it remains honorable and useful. Let’s continue to use intelligent design whenever and wherever it makes sense.

Comments
Hi Brent: You write,
How does that work in context, however, of the evil that exists in the world? You would be open to the charge that God is, by the same reasoning, really responsible for evil, no?
Brent, I am not clear about why my argument against TE would implicate God in this way. Could you stretch out on that one a bit more? It seems to me that man, not God, is responsible for evil. To know something is going to occur is not the same as causing it. God knows if the stock market is going to crash, but that doesn't mean he caused it. So, I must not be understanding your objection. Based on your record of thoughtfulness, I suspect that you may have something else in mind.StephenB
November 6, 2013
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Thanks for the kudo's BA77. (Fforgive my derail from the main thrust of the thread here) I've been admiring your content for years on this site. Your copious links to supporting videos and websites are almost always worth a visit. I'm still mining the "Dangerous Knowledge" BBC video (which I found through you) for lots of apologetic material. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem has some interesting theological implications which I'm surprised have not found a wider audience, but that's another story. Now back to our regular programming...reductio
November 6, 2013
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Well said reductio, Before I read your post which you put so well, I had just realized that without a perspective outside the natural order in order to judge (assign meaning) as to whether something within the natural order is meaningless or meaningful then no such judgement would be possible. i.e. The judgement itself requires that meaning exists prior to the natural order. Or as CS Lewis would put it: “Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning...” CS Lewis – Mere Christianitybornagain77
November 6, 2013
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JLA, You may be in a blessed place. There is a sort of coherence in your thinking, but once you've concluded that everything is, really, meaningless, it seems the only evidence left to consider is that evidence within: meaning is real because that's simply the way it feels. Start from there.Brent
November 6, 2013
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JLAfan2001, Nihilism is truly self-defeating because once all meaning has been discarded, what is the point in arguing for anything at all - even meaninglessness? You are using the tools of meaning (logic, science, language) to say that there is really no meaning; the entire enterprise is a giant contradiction. And clearly there is *some* shred of meaning left to you because you want to take the time to convince the rest of us of the correctness of your case. If any meaning at all exists, then logical necessity demands the existence of an ultimate meaning - what philosophers call Truth (with the captial T). Don't give up the search.reductio
November 6, 2013
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JLAfan2001, You laundry list is a collection of conclusions. Not facts. How you came to those conclusions is an interesting question. But since you ask... "May I ask if you have a faith of some type, what it is and why you have it? " I have very little faith in anything. My view of life and existence follows from the objective facts that do exist, and personal experience of what one might call, "the numinous." It is clearly obvious to me that consciousness is primary and that I am part of a "supernatural" reality that is not dependent on space-time. That you do not have this, well, I feel sorry for you. But my direct conscious experience informs everything else. It is the starting point. Your laundry list of conclusions is flatly contradicted by my personal experience. I'm not going to try an psychoanalyze you, but I think there's more going on than what you've indicated. So, as WJM asked, what do you hope gain here?CentralScrutinizer
November 6, 2013
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"To escape this reality, one has to construct his own reality with..." ...nihilism. Even nihilism then is another lie to live in. Meaninglessness is the only thing that makes sense. That nothing is real is the only reality. Logic and reason tell us that there are 80 billion inhabited planets - which proves there's no logic or reason. So they can't tell us there are 80 billion inhabited planets. I think you're on to a self-defeater there, son.Jon Garvey
November 6, 2013
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CentralScrutinizer May I ask if you have a faith of some type, what it is and why you have it? I'm a nihilist because it shows reality. If there is no higher power, then everything humanity holds dear was constructed by humanity and therefore not real. I've posted before: •No objective, absolute, inherent meaning in life or the universe •No objective, absolute, inherent purpose in life or the universe •No objective, absolute, inherent value in life or the universe •We are the cobbled together Frankensteins of billions of years of trial and error •No objective, absolute, inherent morality in life or the universe. No good, no evil, no right, no wrong •No objective, absolute, inherent truth in life or the universe •No objective, absolute, inherent knowledge in life or the universe •No objective, absolute, inherent logic in life or the universe •We have no free-will, mind, consciousness, rationality or reason. They are illusions and very personhood, identity and humanity are not real. •The emotions we express are just chemicals in our brain. The very things we seek in life like happiness, peace, contentment, joy are just chemicals reducing us to nothing more than chemical addicts. •We are no more important than other animals. A dog is a rat is a pig is a boy. •There is no after life. Once we die, we fade from existence and all our memories, experiences, knowledge etc goes with it. In time, we are forgotten. •All the things we do in life are just for survival. Learning, loving, seeking, being positive, eating, relating, having fun are created for the sake of ignoring the real reason we are here and that’s to live as long as we can. •There is no help coming to save humanity as a species or as individuals. We are all alone and on our own. If you can’t survive, you die. To escape this reality, one has to construct his own reality with meaning, purpose, love, logic, reason etc. That would be just another lie to live in. Humanity generally lives in their own personal matrix of their own creation. We had to in order survive. Nihilism is the only way out of the matrix. It's not pretty but it's reality.JLAfan2001
November 6, 2013
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There is no meaning, purpose or value in the universe. People make it up but that doesn’t make it real anymore than Santa Claus is real. Hence my nihilism. I have gone where the evidence led.
And yet here you argue, as if your argument has merit or meaning. What do you hope to accomplish here, Mr. Nihilist, besides demonstrating hypocrisy with every post?William J Murray
November 6, 2013
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SB
Contemporary Theistic Evolutionists want to turn the tables and say that God “knew” what the one result of a groping process would be. This argument, however, is illogical because it would mean that God didn’t intend or cause the final outcome that He knew would occur.
Devil's advocate here. How does that work in context, however, of the evil that exists in the world? You would be open to the charge that God is, by the same reasoning, really responsible for evil, no? I'm curious how you would answer such a challenge.Brent
November 6, 2013
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JLA, the science is what it is. Take it or leave it. But it is what it is! And what our science tells us is that, given Naturalism, we should not expect another life permitting planet in the universe. The odds against all the parameters coming together for a planet to permit life vastly exceed the possible number of planets in the universe:
Hugh Ross – Evidence For Intelligent Design Is Everywhere (10^-1054) – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4347236 Linked from Appendix C from Dr. Ross’s book, ‘Why the Universe Is the Way It Is’; Probability for occurrence of all 816 parameters approx. = 10^-1333 dependency factors estimate approx. = 10^324 longevity requirements estimate approx. = 10^45 Probability for occurrence of all 816 parameters approx. = 10^-1054 Maximum possible number of life support bodies in observable universe approx. = 10^22 Thus, less than 1 chance in 10^1032 exists that even one such life-support body would occur anywhere in the universe without invoking divine miracles. http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium/compendium_part3.pdf
And please note, that even if every one of the 10^80 sub-atomic particles in the universe were a planet that would still be a 1 in 10^974 probability against a life permitting planet originating by chance. Moreover, that is just the probability of finding a planet that may possibly support life in the universe. Throw on top of that the probability of life 'spontaneously' forming under idea conditions for any life supporting planet and then the odds against that happening quickly explode into gargantuan proportions:
"The probability for the chance of formation of the smallest, simplest form of living organism known is 1 in 10^340,000,000. This number is 10 to the 340 millionth power! The size of this figure is truly staggering since there is only supposed to be approximately 10^80 (10 to the 80th power) electrons in the whole universe!" (Professor Harold Morowitz, Energy Flow In Biology pg. 99, Biophysicist of George Mason University)
Dr. Morowitz did another probability calculation working from the thermodynamic perspective with a already existing cell and came up with this number:
DID LIFE START BY CHANCE? Excerpt: Molecular biophysicist, Horold Morowitz (Yale University), calculated the odds of life beginning under natural conditions (spontaneous generation). He calculated, if one were to take the simplest living cell and break every chemical bond within it, the odds that the cell would reassemble under ideal natural conditions (the best possible chemical environment) would be one chance in 10^100,000,000,000. You will have probably have trouble imagining a number so large, so Hugh Ross provides us with the following example. If all the matter in the Universe was converted into building blocks of life, and if assembly of these building blocks were attempted once a microsecond for the entire age of the universe. Then instead of the odds being 1 in 10^100,000,000,000, they would be 1 in 10^99,999,999,916 (also of note: 1 with 100 billion zeros following would fill approx. 20,000 encyclopedias) http://members.tripod.com/~Black_J/chance.html Punctured cell will never reassemble - Jonathan Wells - 2:40 mark of video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKoiivfe_mo
of related note:
Abiogenic Origin of Life: A Theory in Crisis - Arthur V. Chadwick, Ph.D. Excerpt: The synthesis of proteins and nucleic acids from small molecule precursors represents one of the most difficult challenges to the model of prebiological evolution. There are many different problems confronted by any proposal. Polymerization is a reaction in which water is a product. Thus it will only be favored in the absence of water. The presence of precursors in an ocean of water favors depolymerization of any molecules that might be formed. Careful experiments done in an aqueous solution with very high concentrations of amino acids demonstrate the impossibility of significant polymerization in this environment. A thermodynamic analysis of a mixture of protein and amino acids in an ocean containing a 1 molar solution of each amino acid (100,000,000 times higher concentration than we inferred to be present in the prebiological ocean) indicates the concentration of a protein containing just 100 peptide bonds (101 amino acids) at equilibrium would be 10^-338 molar. Just to make this number meaningful, our universe may have a volume somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^85 liters. At 10^-338 molar, we would need an ocean with a volume equal to 10^229 universes (100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000) just to find a single molecule of any protein with 100 peptide bonds. So we must look elsewhere for a mechanism to produce polymers. It will not happen in the ocean. http://origins.swau.edu/papers/life/chadwick/default.html
Thus JLA, you can believe that life spontaneously pops up all over the universe if you want, but I simply ain't got enough faith to be an atheist!bornagain77
November 6, 2013
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JLAfan2001: This is exactly why I have become a Nihilist. Evolution and God can’t be reconciled no matter how you try.
Given what you said later, I'll assume you mean "purposeless, blind-watchmaker style evolution" and "Christianity as I understand it" cannot be reconciled. I am not surprised by that. So the only choice is "Christianity" (as you understand "it") and nihilism? You swing pretty wide. The smorgasbord has a lot more choices than that. Well, welcome to the world of growing up and handling evidence like an adult. It can be ugly and disturbing at first. But it can be downright fascinating. And it sure as hell does not necessarily lead to nihilism. Not at all. Like the old Carpenter's song says: you've only just begun. "Evolution" is an equivocal term, use, misused and abused not only in the popular press, but even in peer reviewed literature. Great precision is a virtue.
The evidence for evolution is numerous to the point where I just couldn’t hold onto my Christian beliefs any longer and still be honest with myself.
Whether or not you abandon "Christianity" is up to you. But I agree that the evidence for "evolution" is substantial. There has been "change over time" in the fossil evidence. It appears to contradict a six-24-hour-day creation account offered in Genesis. I don't believe the six-day account either anymore. However, the evolution that actually exists in the historical evidence, that is, in the fossils, does not comport with the gradualism that Darwin envisioned. And that's why scientists ever since have been trying to tap dance and "explain" away this or that fact ever since, with nonsense like "punk eek" and other excuses that many of those not in the Church of Darwin are astonished that they believe it. The "blind watchmaker" type of evolution (which is what most of those committed to the Modern Synthesis believe in) is loaded with problems and it gets worse by the day. It's interesting to watch with an open mind. Then there's the whole problem of the origin of life; the origin of the extremely sophisticate DNA replication system. Scientifically, OOL studies are bankrupt. And things are getting worse, not better. Pure and simple. It looks more and more to me as if earth was created and managed with infusions of information at various stages. With an astonishing beginning.
Now Nasa has calculated that there are 8.8 billion earth-like planets in our galaxy alone. The chances that life could arise naturally on one of these planets are quite high when one takes in the age of the universe too.
"Chances" refers to statistical probability. We have a sample of life on a planet of exactly one. Earth. And we don't know how life started on earth, whether it is an artifact or whether it occurred to due the action of natural forces alone as we understand them. (Chance and necessity.) So to say "the chances that life could arise naturally on one of these planets" is based on nothing scientific. For such a claim to even being to be meaningful you'd have to at least know how life started on earth. Nobody knows it started here. Any such claims about life on other planets, made by NASA or Donald Duck, are scientifically vacuous at present.
As I have said many times before, it’s time for you guys to give up your faith because evolution isn’t going anywhere. Even your apologetics champ seems to agree.
It may be high time for people to give up their kindergarten faith, I would agree with you on that. And there may be good reasons to be a nihilist, but you haven't provided any. There's a lot more possibilities than the black and white thinking you're wallowing in.CentralScrutinizer
November 6, 2013
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BA77 Think about this for a minute. There are 8.8 billion earth-like planets in our galaxy ALONE!!! The calculation doesn’t even include the rest of the universe. Do you really think that our planet will be the only one to meet all those conditions out of billions of planets? The odds of that happening are very low. I think Ross and Gonzalez need to go back and rethink their calculations in light of this new data. I bet the results won’t be the same. RTB has a podcast out concerning this topic and they don’t really say that the NASA data is wrong. In fact, they say better go back to the bible to see if there is any mention of alien life in there. This would probably be could thing though because when science does find life, Christians can say “we knew about that all along. In fact, the bible says there is.” The bible may have to be modified and reinterpreted yet again because of science but the faith will still be safe. StephenB “I am afraid that this comment misses the point. It is unguided macro-evolution that cannot be reconciled with God.” This was the point I was trying to make. Unguided macro-evolution IS a fact and it can’t be reconciled with God in anyway that Biologos thinks it can. “Though a case can be made for guided macro-evolution it is, by no means, a fact. There is just as much evidence against it as there is for it. Check with bornagain77 and Cornelius Hunter.” Yes it is a fact. We have enough evidence to confirm it as such. Also, I don’t follow creationist or ID material anymore. They just twist the facts to match their faith. “Life could not arise without a design boost.” Where is your proof for this or is this another “god of the gaps” thing? We have many pieces of the puzzle but we just haven’t figured out how to put them together. When that does happen, creationism and ID will be dead. “This sentence contains three different themes, all of which are too ambiguous and unconnected to merit a response. Please write it again and try to make your point comprehensible.” I was trying to say that everyone here was singing Craig’s praises for how he wins debates and furthers the arguments for God but once he goes with something that you guys don’t agree with, he gets chastised. People at UD have become disappointed with him because he doesn’t back ID thinking. WJM “That’s not really much of a “reason” to become a nihilist, IMHO.” There is no meaning, purpose or value in the universe. People make it up but that doesn’t make it real anymore than Santa Claus is real. Hence my nihilism. I have gone where the evidence led. Krock “Surely you don’t believe what you’ve posted here to be objectively true and meaningful, do you?” I believe whatever my brain makes me believe, just like your do.JLAfan2001
November 6, 2013
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In my experience, people become Nihilists due to some other kind of need/desire/emotional commitment and then look around for justifications - but that's probably true of most people and most beliefs.William J Murray
November 6, 2013
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@ JLAfan2001 "This is exactly why I have become a Nihilist. Evolution and God can’t be reconciled no matter how you try. Biologos, Collins, Falk, Venema etc all look stupid in everyone eye’s. The evidence for evolution is numerous to the point where I just couldn’t hold onto my Christian beliefs any longer and still be honest with myself. Now Nasa has calculated that there are 8.8 billion earth-like planets in our galaxy alone. The chances that life could arise naturally on one of these planets are quite high when one takes in the age of the universe too. As I have said many times before, it’s time for you guys to give up your faith because evolution isn’t going anywhere. Even your apologetics champ seems to agree. My how Christians can turn on their own when one disagrees with dogma." Surely you don’t believe what you’ve posted here to be objectively true and meaningful, do you?KRock
November 6, 2013
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Here’s what I propose. Let’s leave evolution to materialists. Let them have exclusive rights to the word. Let them use it to describe the process of unintelligent design, fueled by mistakes, and devoid of God. Let their proposal, untainted by theistic emendations, stand or fall.
On this, Dembski is simply making a mistake. The fact is that the 'science' of evolution is utterly incapable of ruling out or even ruling on the very sort of design that WLC is discussing - and it's important to stress that. Pointing this out does not 'curry favor' with evolutionists and materialists - they dislike it intensely. Pointing out the limitations of science, the lack of scientific evidence for atheistic claims, etc, should be one area that theists generally - whether or not they accept ID as science or as valid reasoning - can agree upon. So no, let's not leave evolution to the materialists, let's not let them have exclusive rights to the word. Let's take words that we like and find useful, let's point out the flaws in atheistic reasoning, and let's make perfectly clear that just because something evolved does not mean that it was not designed. Yes, this will confuse some people. I think it will educate far more people than it will make needlessly frantic.nullasalus
November 5, 2013
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More proof that WLC should stick to cosmology...johnp
November 5, 2013
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Mentally capitalize that letter, 'L' of 'literature' for me, will you? PS: I think that JLSfan2001 wishes he were 'a pair of ragged claws, scuttling across the floors of silent seas.' Particularly tragic for one so young. I think he was born in 2001.Axel
November 5, 2013
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Nihilism invites unreason, WIJ. The final frontier for the atheist theoretician: total inanition. The Multiverse to the power of infinity.. produced from nothing. 'Out, out, brief candle!' we hear them declaim. But the heart has its unreasons, also, that reason knows not of... I expect a Noble prize for literature for that.Axel
November 5, 2013
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This is exactly why I have become a Nihilist.
That's not really much of a "reason" to become a nihilist, IMHO.William J Murray
November 5, 2013
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This is exactly why I have become a Nihilist. Evolution and God can’t be reconciled no matter how you try. Biologos, Collins, Falk, Venema etc all look stupid in everyone eye’s.
I am afraid that this comment misses the point. It is unguided macro-evolution that cannot be reconciled with God.
The evidence for evolution is numerous to the point where I just couldn’t hold onto my Christian beliefs any longer and still be honest with myself.
Though a case can be made for guided macrp-evolution it is, by no means, a fact. There is just as much evidence against it as there is for it. Check with bornagain77 and Cornelius Hunter.
The chances that life could arise naturally on one of these planets are quite high when one takes in the age of the universe too.
Life could not arise without a design boost.
As I have said many times before, it’s time for you guys to give up your faith because evolution isn’t going anywhere. Even your apologetics champ seems to agree. My how Christians can turn on their own when one disagrees with dogma.
This sentence contains three different themes, all of which are too ambiguous and unconnected to merit a response. Please write it again and try to make your point comprehensible.StephenB
November 5, 2013
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One problem with the OP is that God is portrayed as only controlling his own bowling ball.Mung
November 5, 2013
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JLA, as to,
Now Nasa has calculated that there are 8.8 billion earth-like planets in our galaxy alone.
WOW that's it guys, shut UD down, the gig is up.,, But before they do that JLA, how about these few facts? Among Darwin Advocates, Premature Celebration over Abundance of Habitable Planets - September 2011 Excerpt: Today, such processes as planet formation details, tidal forces, plate tectonics, magnetic field evolution, and planet-planet, planet-comet, and planet-asteroid gravitational interactions are found to be relevant to habitability.,,, What's more, not only are more requirements for habitability being discovered, but they are often found to be interdependent, forming a (irreducibly) complex "web." This means that if a planetary system is found not to satisfy one of the habitability requirements, it may not be possible to compensate for this deficit by adjusting a different parameter in the system. - Guillermo Gonzalez http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/09/among_darwin_advocates_prematu050871.html Hugh Ross - Evidence For Intelligent Design Is Everywhere (10^-1054) - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4347236 Linked from Appendix C from Dr. Ross's book, 'Why the Universe Is the Way It Is'; Probability for occurrence of all 816 parameters ? 10^-1333 dependency factors estimate ? 10^324 longevity requirements estimate ? 10^45 Probability for occurrence of all 816 parameters ? 10^-1054 Maximum possible number of life support bodies in observable universe ? 10^22 Thus, less than 1 chance in 10^1032 exists that even one such life-support body would occur anywhere in the universe without invoking divine miracles. http://www.reasons.org/files/compendium/compendium_part3.pdf And what should be very interesting for quantum geeks is the the observability correlation of the 'Privileged Planet' principle: Privileged Planet - Observability Correlation - Gonzalez and Richards - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5424431 The very conditions that make Earth hospitable to intelligent life also make it well suited to viewing and analyzing the universe as a whole. - Jay Richards The Privileged Planet - The Correlation Of Habitability and Observability “The same narrow circumstances that allow us to exist also provide us with the best over all conditions for making scientific discoveries.” “The one place that has observers is the one place that also has perfect solar eclipses.” “There is a final, even more bizarre twist. Because of Moon-induced tides, the Moon is gradually receding from Earth at 3.82 centimeters per year. In ten million years will seem noticeably smaller. At the same time, the Sun’s apparent girth has been swelling by six centimeters per year for ages, as is normal in stellar evolution. These two processes, working together, should end total solar eclipses in about 250 million years, a mere 5 percent of the age of the Earth. This relatively small window of opportunity also happens to coincide with the existence of intelligent life. Put another way, the most habitable place in the Solar System yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them.” - Guillermo Gonzalez - Astronomer http://books.google.com/books?id=lMdwFWZ00GQC&pg=PT28#v=onepage&q&f=false The Privileged Planet - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnWyPIzTOTw The Privileged Planet: How Our Place in the Cosmos Is Designed for Discovery - book By Guillermo Gonzalez, Jay Wesley Richards http://books.google.com/books?id=KFdu4CyQ1k0C&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false A video of related 'observability correlation' interest; We Live At The Right Time In Cosmic History - Hugh Ross - video http://vimeo.com/31940671bornagain77
November 5, 2013
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This is exactly why I have become a Nihilist. Evolution and God can’t be reconciled no matter how you try. Biologos, Collins, Falk, Venema etc all look stupid in everyone eye’s. The evidence for evolution is numerous to the point where I just couldn’t hold onto my Christian beliefs any longer and still be honest with myself. Now Nasa has calculated that there are 8.8 billion earth-like planets in our galaxy alone. The chances that life could arise naturally on one of these planets are quite high when one takes in the age of the universe too. As I have said many times before, it’s time for you guys to give up your faith because evolution isn’t going anywhere. Even your apologetics champ seems to agree. My how Christians can turn on their own when one disagrees with dogma.JLAfan2001
November 5, 2013
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William Lane Craig:
A designer with knowledge of such counterfactuals could choose to arrange the appropriate boundary conditions and constellation of natural laws that God knew would lead, via a blind evolutionary process, to intelligent life. For these reasons we cannot treat dismissively the theistic evolutionary perspective.
It's hard to believe that someone with such a talented mind could miss the mark so completely. The contradiction should be evident: If evolution is groping without purpose, then it cannot also be leading with purpose; it evolution is leading with purpose, then it cannot also be groping without purpose. If evolution is groping without purpose, then it can produce any one of many possible outcomes; if evolution is leading with purpose, then it will produce only one outcome--the one that God intended. Contemporary Theistic Evolutionists want to turn the tables and say that God "knew" what the one result of a groping process would be. This argument, however, is illogical because it would mean that God didn't intend or cause the final outcome that He knew would occur.StephenB
November 5, 2013
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