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Bradley Monton — Important Article on Dover

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Bradley Monton, a Princeton-trained philosopher on the faculty at the University of Kentucky, has an important piece on Dover here. Though Monton is not an ID proponent (he is a philosopher of physics who in his professional work is quite critical of fine-tuning as evidence for God), he exhibits little patience for the reasoning in Judge Jones’s decision. Note especially the following paragraph from his article:

There is a problem with this idea that science should change its methodology in light of empirical confirmation of the existence of a supernatural being [[a point that Pennock had conceded in testimony]]. How does this empirical confirmation take place, if not scientifically? By Pennock’s lights, there must be some other epistemic practice that one can engage in where one can get empirical evidence for some proposition. What epistemic practice is this, and why doesn’t it count as science? Pennock doesn’t say. Also, note that the scientific status of that epistemic practice will presumably shift: at a time before one gets the empirical evidence that a supernatural being exists, the epistemic practice is unscientific, but after one gets that empirical evidence, the methodology of science changes in such a way that the epistemic practice (presumably) counts as scientific.

The lesson, which should be obvious to Pennock and Forrest if only it didn’t provide such a wide opening for ID, is that methodologies are tools for assisting inquiry but cannot define (or confine) inquiry.

Comments
Crandaddy writes: "Let me just say that I, personally, remain unconvinced that a supernatural designer is a necessary explanation for ID in nature." Hi David, Yes, I've been a little sloppy in my use of terminology in this thread. When I say that ID implies a supernatural designer, I'm really referring to the "prime designer" implied by Bill Dembski's CSI ideas, according to the designer chain argument that I've laid out elsewhere on the blog. The immediate designer of life could presumably be natural, although even here there is an issue: Dembski believes that CSI comes only from intelligence, and that intelligence cannot operate via undirected natural processes. This would seem to imply a supernatural component even in a proximate, non-prime designing intelligence. A supernatural designer would also seem to be required by ID's fine-tuning argument, unless you accept the possibility of a non-supernatural "cosmic hacker" creating universes, a possibility which was in fact raised by a recent post of Bill's. "Moreover, I maintain that the concept of ID is very important to the study of biological origins...whether or not the design proposed is ontologically real." That's an interesting wrinkle. Could you elaborate on what you would mean by an ontologically unreal design?keiths
January 7, 2006
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Hi Keith, Well done in comment #15! Let me just say that I, personally, remain unconvinced that a supernatural designer is a necessary explanation for ID in nature. Moreover, I maintain that the concept of ID is very important to the study of biological origins - whether or not the designer is supernatural and even whether or not the design proposed is ontologically real.crandaddy
January 7, 2006
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Feederbottom, I'm certainly not saying that string theorists are trying to change the definition of science, or that string theory somehow involves the supernatural. I was just trying to offer an example of how science can already accommodate aspects of reality which are not directly observable. Perhaps a better example would have been the fact that we have not seen, and for theoretical reasons never expect to see, quarks in isolation. Yet we're confident that they exist because of their indirect effects on experimental observations. Handling a supernatural unobservable is not really any different from handling a natural unobservable, as long as they both have indirect observable consequences in the natural world.keiths
January 7, 2006
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ID isn't trying to change the definition of science either.Josh Bozeman
January 7, 2006
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I'm going to sit and think about this stuff for a bit. But, in the meantime I wanted to address Keiths's comment: "Another possible objection to including the supernatural in science is that the supernatural is not directly observable. But it seems that science copes with non-observables already. For example, my understanding is that recent work in string theory shows that three-dimensional physics including gravity is equivalent to two-dimensional physics minus gravity in anti de Sitter space (you’re the physicist — perhaps you can tell me if I’ve got that right). If physics remains the same between these two models, we can never experimentally tell the difference. Similarly, there might be multiple models for the unobservable supernatural part of an otherwise observable phenomenon, but science would never allow us to distinguish among them." I'm not a string theorist, and haven't studied much of it at all. But, I do know that string theory isn't fully considered a science yet, simply because it hasn't resulted in any testables. At the moment it's all just math. When they finally figure out some testables, then the string theorists will join the adult table. The reason that they are considered Physicists as opposed to Mathematicians is because they are on the verge of producing a testable. Of course, they've been on this verge for 30 years. (Note: No string theorist is trying to get String Theory taught in public high schools or change the definition of science!) Since the ultimate goal of their work is to produce testables, they are given a little leeway.Feederbottom
January 7, 2006
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Keith is at it again, claiming that IDers are being dishonest. Please, Keith, talk to DaveScot, who has said many many many times that he doesn't see the designer needs to be supernatural. Why you continue to make this claim that I have clarified so many times, I've no idea. You can always contact DS directly (and he's just one of many with the same view) to tell him he's being dishonest and refuses to admit that he really thinks that ID demands a supernatural designer. I'm sure he'd have some choice words for you, but you can always try! Funny thing is, when I pointed out the implication that he was calling ID proponents liars, he apologized, but he's reverted back to his old position now.
"But ID proponents don’t want to admit that the designer is supernatural, since that would make it unscientific by current MN standards."
Josh Bozeman
January 7, 2006
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"How does a group of PN scientists come to agree ment on anything? It seems that they can each bring their own contradictory explanation. And since those explanations don’t have to be testable, there doesn’t seem a way to determine the worthiness of those explanations. For example, I could say that the world was created by God this morning, right before I woke up. That’s logically consistent with a omnipotent God’s abilities, right? But, there is no way to test such an idea. So a YEC’s explanation of God creating the world 6,000 years ago is just as likely. Ad Nauseum. Science would lurch to a halt. How does practically applying PN avoid such a stagnation?" You seem to be equating Pragmatic Naturalism to "anything goes". Pragmatic naturalists stress that genuine inquiry must be conducted in a consistently empirical manner. They also contend that the sciences and their methodologies are superior to other modes of inquiry. I realize that the standalone Pragmatism is often taken to be opposed to Realism, but from my understanding there is an interdependence between Pragmatic Naturalism and some realistic metaphysical stances. What is really at issue is whether intelligent design can confer explanatory benefit in understanding biological systems. These methodologies are good working models, not necessarily a hard and fast rule, so equating a single methodology to BEING science seems a dodge more than anything else. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/01/intelligent_design_is_empirica.html#more Testability is discussed there. I'm kind of annoyed they said that "We have given only two examples here. There are many other design arguments in biology, origin-of-life studies, and paleontology that are also empirically testable and that make predictions." but don't bother to link to these other examples. On a side note, I've pretty much banished the word "supernatural" from my vocabulary when in these discussions since to my mind the supernatural is stuff like vampires and the boogieman. The question is "what is the nature of nature" and should we be held back a priori from asking that question.Patrick
January 7, 2006
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Hi Feederbottom, I'm not an ID proponent, but I do believe that science can be legitimately extended beyond methodological naturalism, subject to certain caveats. You write: "MN allows for any teleological explanation that can be tested. MN simply does not allow for untestable explanations." I disagree. MN disallows supernatural teleological explanations, even if they are testable. See https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/557 , starting around comment #9, for some examples of how certain limited concepts of God might be testable if MN is relaxed. Also see https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/587 , comments 104 & 111. "So a YEC’s explanation of God creating the world 6,000 years ago is just as likely. Ad Nauseum. Science would lurch to a halt. How does practically applying PN avoid such a stagnation?" Indeed, the YEC example as you stated it is untestable. But you can make it testable by adding one constraint. Most Christians believe that God would not deceive us by making the Earth appear to be older than it is. If this is true, then the hypothetical God is testable, and evidence of the Earth's great age falsifies his existence. My gripe is that the current designer hypothesis of ID lacks the constraints needed to make it testable. But ID proponents don't want to admit that the designer is supernatural, since that would make it unscientific by current MN standards. This reluctance is interesting and seemingly contradictory, because in his book "Intelligent Design", our blog host (Bill Dembski) admits that "So long as methodological naturalism sets the ground rules for how the game of science is to be played, intelligent design has no chance of success." It would seem that the short-term project is to get ID accepted as science under MN rules by claiming that the designer need not be supernatural, but then later to expand the boundaries of science beyond MN and bring God back into the picture. At least, that's the only way I can see for ID proponents to reconcile these seemingly contradictory positions. Another possible objection to including the supernatural in science is that the supernatural is not directly observable. But it seems that science copes with non-observables already. For example, my understanding is that recent work in string theory shows that three-dimensional physics including gravity is equivalent to two-dimensional physics minus gravity in anti de Sitter space (you're the physicist -- perhaps you can tell me if I've got that right). If physics remains the same between these two models, we can never experimentally tell the difference. Similarly, there might be multiple models for the unobservable supernatural part of an otherwise observable phenomenon, but science would never allow us to distinguish among them.keiths
January 7, 2006
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Patrick said: "Personally I’d feel justified in considering dark matter to be up in the air at the moment." Oh, completely. Cosmology is a very active area of research at the moment, and as new data comes in and theories are pounded out, the existence and character of Dark Matter can be volatile. But, that doesn't make the idea of Dark Matter a result of pragmatism, as the existence and character of it relies on empirical testing and data. Things which are not required of pragmatism. Crandaddy said: "I understand that MN does not allow for teleological explanations of nature. Am I wrong? Also, the issue is not whether there is or is not empirical data of design in nature but whether or not there even can be." Yes, you are wrong. MN allows for any teleological explanation that can be tested. MN simply does not allow for untestable explanations. The trouble that ID has in being accepted as a science is coming up with a way to test such design. (Note: Testing for the failure of a specific form of evolution does not equate to a postive test for design.) This is why there is such a big push by the ID movement to throw out this restriction of MN and go to PN. However, based on the past fruitfulness of MN it doesn't seem very wise to me. Crandaddy said: "A pragmatic naturalist would conduct scientific investigation in the same manner that a methodological naturalist would. The difference between them is that the PN is free to invoke all logically possible explanations for his observations, and the MN is not." How does a group of PN scientists come to agree ment on anything? It seems that they can each bring their own contradictory explanation. And since those explanations don't have to be testable, there doesn't seem a way to determine the worthiness of those explanations. For example, I could say that the world was created by God this morning, right before I woke up. That's logically consistent with a omnipotent God's abilities, right? But, there is no way to test such an idea. So a YEC's explanation of God creating the world 6,000 years ago is just as likely. Ad Nauseum. Science would lurch to a halt. How does practically applying PN avoid such a stagnation?Feederbottom
January 7, 2006
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Feederbottom, I said this: “The problem with MN is that it dictates the presumption that nature is epistemically atelic without the empirical data to verify it.” You answered with this: "MN simply doesn’t dictate such a presumption. As there is no empirical data either way, it says nothing on the matter." I understand that MN does not allow for teleological explanations of nature. Am I wrong? Also, the issue is not whether there is or is not empirical data of design in nature but whether or not there even can be. In comment #5, you said this: "So you still haven’t explained how a scientist uses Pragmatic Naturalism in the lab. At what point does his method differ from how an MN scientist works? As far as I understand it seems that the only difference is that the PN scientist can give theories that can’t be tested. What good are those theories? Help me figure this out." A pragmatic naturalist would conduct scientific investigation in the same manner that a methodological naturalist would. The difference between them is that the PN is free to invoke all logically possible explanations for his observations, and the MN is not. Dave, Of course, science is agnostic, but I don't see why a supernatural entity cannot be invoked as an explanation of a natural phenomenon if and only if it is the best available explanation for that phenomenon. Moreover, never did I call for the wholesale abandonment of MN. It has been a very productive methodology in the past and will probably continue to be. Even so, you may need to check your devotion to it. MN doesn't just exclude supernatural explanations; it also excludes any explanation that may suggest a supernatural cause - including teleology in nature. Are you prepared to categorically assert that a designer of nature could not be supernatural?crandaddy
January 7, 2006
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That's why opponents to ID claim science IS methodological naturalism (and then some like Monod claim it is antiteleological naturalism). By that definition ID is automatically ruled out as being science since ID "allows" for the existence of unembodied entities. Annoying how even as a moderator I cannot edit my own posts and merge my previous thoughts (unless I'm looking over something in the Site Admin section).Patrick
January 7, 2006
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On the subject of methodological naturalism I'd agree that it has been very successful as a working model for the majority of cases. The problem is that if the evidence leads to explanations/conclusions that do not resort only to “matter, energy, and their interaction.” The point at issue is whether nature operates exclusively by such causes.Patrick
January 7, 2006
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"As a physicist I would have to say that dark matter, quarks, and black holes, are not results of pragmaticism. All of the theories that describe these objects make testable predictions." I'm not going to defend Quine's statement completely (it was just an example). I realize there are candidates for what dark matter is (WIMPs, CCDM, and more) but... http://www.physorg.com/news7058.html This article discusses dark matter and a computer simulation that "proves" its existence and claims that the existing model of elliptical galaxies is wrong. http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/051010_dark_matter.html And yet here we another study to the opposite effect. Considering that 25% of the mass of the universe might suddenly go "poof" and I keeping reading statements like "No one knows whether these might somehow be detected one day." personally I'd feel justified in considering dark matter to be up in the air at the moment. Also, unless you cannot get an item shipped I don't see why you cannot purchase the book. It's only $15. Here are the shipping restrictions: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/468634/103-4291414-4202222Patrick
January 7, 2006
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As a scientist one does not deny the evidence of design in nature but rather one presumes there is a natural explanation for it. One also knows the presumption may prove to be wrong. Such presumptions are default positions taken when there is insufficient data to reach any firm conclusions. For instance The Copernican Principle of Mediocrity is about presuming the planet earth and everything about it is common in the universe. Science is happily discovering that this doesn't seem to be the case. It appears the earth is an exceedingly rare bird. Presumptions are subject to change but until the data warrants it presumptions that have engendered practical successes in the past are well entrenched. Methodological naturalism is such a presumption and there is, as yet, no data that warrants abandoning it and it has been very successful as a practical matter. That doesn't mean it might prove to be wrong it just means it's still the prevailing presumption.DaveScot
January 6, 2006
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Crandaddy The wiki article says "Methodological naturalism assumes that observable events in nature are explained only by natural causes without assuming the existence or non-existence of the supernatural." Repeat after me - science is agnostic. That is the simple unvarnished truth. If you don't agree you're wrong and that's the simple unvarnished truth too.DaveScot
January 6, 2006
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Crandaddy says: "Sorry, Feederbottom. I don’t see anything wrong with what I said, and I don’t know how I could be any clearer in my wording." Here's something wrong with what you said: "The problem with MN is that it dictates the presumption that nature is epistemically atelic without the empirical data to verify it." MN simply doesn't dictate such a presumption. As there is no empirical data either way, it says nothing on the matter. Unfortunately, I don't have access to "The Design Revolution." I was wondering if you smart guys could answer my previous questions and/or give me some examples to facilitate the understanding. I sure hope that you have an answer to my questions!Feederbottom
January 6, 2006
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Sorry, Feederbottom. I don't see anything wrong with what I said, and I don't know how I could be any clearer in my wording. You may want to look at Wikipedia's article on naturalism if you're confused about the term. You should also follow Patrick's advice and read Chapter 22 in "The Design Revolution".crandaddy
January 6, 2006
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Methodological Naturalism doesn't say anything about a designing intelligence, yay nor nay. There is no such working presumption. The reason is because there is no empirical evidence for such a thing either way. And you're right, typically the theory is created after the data is found. But, really this order isn't so important with good science. Theory can come before any data, as long as the science is done in such a way as to prevent a "finding what you were looking for" effect. An example of theory before data is the present search for the Higgs boson. It has been predicted by The Standard Model in particle physics, and now as accelerator technologies advance, they are looking for the particle. "Nature shows what nature shows; it doesn’t have to conform to arbitrarily formulated a priori speculations." says Crandaddy. Exactly, which is why theory has to always fit the data. Are you implying that MN has a priori speculations about nature? I'd love to hear about them. So you still haven't explained how a scientist uses Pragmatic Naturalism in the lab. At what point does his method differ from how an MN scientist works? As far as I understand it seems that the only difference is that the PN scientist can give theories that can't be tested. What good are those theories? Help me figure this out.Feederbottom
January 6, 2006
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Feederbottom, My understanding of Methodological Naturalism is that it incorporates the working presumption that all of nature is best explained apart from a designing intelligence. The problem with MN is that it dictates the presumption that nature is epistemically atelic without the empirical data to verify it. The way science works is that FIRST empirical data is gathered, and THEN a scientific theory is formulated which fits that data. Nature shows what nature shows; it doesn't have to conform to arbitrarily formulated a priori speculations. Science should simply endeavor to provide the best explanation to fit the evidence currently at hand; this is basically what Pragmatic Naturalism says.crandaddy
January 6, 2006
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From what I understand, using naturalistic methodicism one makes up a theory about our universe, and using predictions based on that theory, tests the universe for the success of those predictions. How does pragmatism do it? Is there any "check" on the methodology? If there is no check, what's to stop the methodology from resulting in many different forms of "truth". It seems that at least naturalistic methodicism is consistent within itself. In other words, differences in theories eventually get resolved. (I'm not saying that they are all currently resolved, just that they have the potential to be resolved in the future.) It seems that pragmatism doesn't have this feature. Perhaps I don't fully understand it. Can you explain it? Perhaps you can show step by step what a pragmatic scientist would do in the lab. Patrick said: "I suppose you could add dark matter and evidence for a multiverse to that list." As a physicist I would have to say that dark matter, quarks, and black holes, are not results of pragmaticism. All of the theories that describe these objects make testable predictions. In fact, millions of dollars are being spent testing exactly these phenomenon and the subtleties. I won't stand behind multiverses, though, as the idea cannot be tested (at least not yet). In other words, there is no evidence for multiverses.Feederbottom
January 6, 2006
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Dembski discusses this subject in-depth in chapter 22 (page 169) of The Design Revolution, which you can get for probably around $15 including shipping on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0830832165/qid=1136563223/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-4291414-4202222?n=507846&s=books&v=glance As for other options... methodological naturalism developed in the late 19th century out of the principles and methods of natural science, especially the Darwinian view that nature is in principle completely knowable, regular, united and whole. Methodological naturalism asserts that there is nothing "real" beyond "nature" and accepts no evidence beyond "natural processes" operating entirely acording to unbroken natural laws and characterized by chance and necessity. "Methodological naturalism insists that scientists pretend as though antiteleological naturalism is true." Pragmatism, on the other hand, holds that the merit of an idea, policy, value or proposal must be determined by its usefulness or workability. Pragmatic naturalism developed out of the work of late 19th and early 20th century American naturalistic humanists like Charles Peirce, William James and John Dewey. In different ways they each posed a marriage of naturalism's dedication to scientific method and pragmatism's rational approach to the problems we face as individuals and social beings. "Pragmatic naturalism wants simply to understand nature and doesn't care what entities are invoked to facilitate that understanding, so long as they prove conceptually fruitful. The philosopher Willard Quine was a pragmatic naturalist...: 'If I saw indirect explanatory benefit in positing sensibilia, possibilia, spirits, a Creator, I would joyfully accord them scientific status too, on a par with such avowedly scientific posits as quarks black holes.'" I suppose you could add dark matter and evidence for a multiverse to that list.Patrick
January 6, 2006
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I've always wondered... What other methodologies are appropriate for inquiry? How would they be implemented? I hear all of this talk about methodological naturalism, and I think I understand it well. But I'm not imaginative enough to come up with any other options. I would prefer more than just the name, a description of the methodology would help. Thanks.Feederbottom
January 5, 2006
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