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But is this fair to Feynman?

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File:A small cup of coffee.JPG From Simon Oxenham at BigThink:

How to Use the Feynman Technique to Identify Pseudoscience

Last week a new study made headlines worldwide by bluntly demonstrating the human capacity to be misled by “pseudo-profound bullshit” from the likes of Deepak Chopra, infamous for making profound sounding yet entirely meaningless statements by abusing scientific language.

The researchers correlate believing pseudo-profundities will all kinds of things Clever People Aren’t Supposed to Like, and one suspects the paper wouldn’t survive replication. So why is this a job for Feynman?

Richard Feynman (1918-1988)

This is all well and good, but how are we supposed to know that we are being misled when we read a quote about quantum theory from someone like Chopra, if we don’t know the first thing about quantum mechanics?

Actually, one can often detect BS without knowing much about the topic at hand, because it often sounds deep but doesn’t reflect common sense. Anyway, from Feynman,

I finally figured out a way to test whether you have taught an idea or you have only taught a definition. Test it this way: You say, ‘Without using the new word which you have just learned, try to rephrase what you have just learned in your own language. Without using the word “energy,” tell me what you know now about the dog’s motion.’ You cannot. So you learned nothing about science. That may be all right. You may not want to learn something about science right away. You have to learn definitions. But for the very first lesson, is that not possibly destructive? More.

It won’t work because many people who read pop science literature do so for the same reason others listen to Deepak Chopra: They want to be reassured against their better judgement or the evidence.  Whether it’s that there are billions of habitable planets out there or that chimpanzees are entering the Stone Age, or that everything is a cosmic accident, or whatever the current schtick is.

And Feynman won’t help them, nor will a bucket of ice water. And it’s not fair to drag ol’ Feynman into it just because he said some true things like,

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.

Give the guy a break.

That said, Feynman (1918–1988) may have, through no fault of his (long-deceased) own, played a role in getting a science journalist dumped recently on suspicious grounds. See “Scientific American may be owned by Nature, but it is run by Twitter

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Hat tip: Stephanie West Allen at Brains on Purpose

Comments
No, yearning, it's not speculation. It is a fact that the various stages in the origin of life involved matter moving from a less ordered state to a more ordered state, so by definition, entropy is involved. Specifically, for life to arise, entropy had to be counteracted. And the basic equation you can think on is known, try googling "Gibb's free energy." And entropy does not "apply across the board back to the molecular level." It really ONLY applies at the molecular level, once you go above that, it is not really useful. You love to use the phrases "speculation" and "a priori assertion" but what I am telling you involves neither. What I am telling you are the facts of the world we live in. Sorry to burst your bubble. Mungy, you just don't know when to quit. Maybe there's a program out there that can help you.Alicia Cartelli
December 30, 2015
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If we have enough molecules, then entropy doesn't apply. :)Mung
December 30, 2015
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Alicia Cartelli @136: Thanks for your reply. [My comments embedded thus] "Entropy is an important part of the equation for the origin of life, yearning. [(1)Speculation. (2)I don't believe there is anything as yet known about this 'equation' thus again, speculation] The first living things had to develop metabolic systems that counteracted entropy and life must constantly continue to do this. [Again speculation and a priori assertion of evolution as fact.] Once you leave the molecular level and start talking about entire cells/tissues/organs, entropy really isn’t part of the conversation." [Agree entirely, but I would suggest this sentence applies across the board back to the molecular level; again speculation and a priori assertion of evolution at the molecular level as fact.]ayearningforpublius
December 30, 2015
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Some of the commentaries contain sermons intended to convert the heathen to the truth of the information-theoretic approach to statistical thermophysics. - Harry S. Robertson
heh. thanks kf.Mung
December 30, 2015
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Z, squid ink clouds. Onlookers cf above to see what Z is so at pains not to see. KFkairosfocus
December 29, 2015
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Saying that computers or snowflakes are not possible under the laws of thermodynamics is just silly,
Computers and snowflakes are only possible in an Intelligently Designed world. Thermodynamics only makes sense in an Intelligently Designed world. Saying that computers or snowflakes are possible under a materialistic framework is just silly.Virgil Cain
December 29, 2015
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Mung: Now I’m going to wait for computers to fall from the sky. We all know that it’s not against the laws for thermodynamics for it to happen. As long as work is done, there's nothing in thermodynamics to prevent it. https://cmchone.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/26181-clipart-illustration-of-four-laptop-computers-falling-in-a-cloudy-blue-sky.jpg kairosfocus: It grounds 2LOT and it grounds on pretty much the same grounds the needle in haystack challenge that FSCO/I poses. We both agree that computers and snowflakes can only occur if thermodynamic work is done. Mung: If we just wait long enough he’ll spontaneously change. The laws of thermodynamics don’t prohibit it. Your statement entails the misunderstanding. Thermodynamics doesn't preclude computers or snowflakes, as long as thermodynamic work is involved. But it doesn't require it either. That depends on the specifics of the processes involved.Zachriel
December 29, 2015
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KF: It is interesting that you have consistently refused to address that statistical approach. If we just wait long enough he'll spontaneously change. The laws of thermodynamics don't prohibit it. :)Mung
December 29, 2015
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Z, the issue is the molecular statistics and macro-identifiable distinct clusters of microstates. This is the more fundamental statistical thermodynamics analysis, on whih e.g. entropy is tied to the number of ways mass and energy at micro levels may be arranged consistent with macro-definable states, indeed [up to relevant constants of proportionality] as the measure of info in bits or the like left to define microstate on being given macrostate. It grounds 2LOT and it grounds on pretty much the same grounds the needle in haystack challenge that FSCO/I poses. It is interesting that you have consistently refused to address that statistical approach. KF PS: Nor is it reasonable to rhetorically blur out that oh work is done in both cases so there. Anytime a force moves its point of application along its line of action work is done. Ice crystals form through the geometry of the polar molecule and require nothing beyond mechanical necessity . . . the analogy shows its flaws again. A typical 300 AA protein or a PC are radically different, highly contingent and per observation require step by step programmed, information rich constructive work. For both of these, the needle in haystack challenge is such that blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of the observed cosmos are maximally implausible explanations relative to intelligently directed configuration. Absent arbitrary imposition of the ideology of evolutionary materialist scientism.kairosfocus
December 29, 2015
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Computers and snowflakes are both implausible with thermodynamic work being done. Now I'm going to wait for computers to fall from the sky. We all know that it's not against the laws for thermodynamics for it to happen.Mung
December 29, 2015
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Mung: There’s nothing about “feeding people” in the laws of thermodynamics. Well, technically humans are chemical engines, but the thermodynamics are comparable. Fuel is converted to create mechanical energy. That's why you put gas in your car. Mung: There’s nothing about “building computers” in the laws of thermodynamics. No. But that brings up the salient point. Saying that thermodynamics explains the formation of computers or snowflakes is not much of an explanation. While both processes must be consistent with thermodynamics, we have to point to other features of the system to provide a complete explanation. Saying that computers or snowflakes are not possible under the laws of thermodynamics is just silly, except to say that computers and snowflakes are both implausible without thermodynamic work being done.Zachriel
December 29, 2015
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Zachriel: From a thermodynamic perspective, people who build computers are just heat machines. You feed them fuel, they move mechanically, and when you stop feeding them, they wind down. There’s nothing about “feeding people” in the laws of thermodynamics.Mung
December 29, 2015
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Zachriel: There’s nothing about “specified complexity” in the laws of thermodynamics. So? Zachriel: From a thermodynamic perspective, people who build computers are just heat machines. You feed them fuel, they move mechanically, and when you stop feeding them, they wind down. There's nothing about "building computers" in the laws of thermodynamics.Mung
December 29, 2015
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kairofocus: For ice, that work is a built in mechanical ordering. The primary work of snowflake formation is evaporating water, lifting it into the atmosphere, then cooling it. The energy, of course, comes from the Sun. kairofocus: For a computer or a protein, the functionally specific organisation per prescriptive information and programmed step by step contingent actions, is not mechanical necessity, nor is it credibly chance. From a thermodynamic perspective, people who build computers are just heat machines. You feed them fuel, they move mechanically, and when you stop feeding them, they wind down. There’s nothing about “specified complexity” in the laws of thermodynamics.Zachriel
December 29, 2015
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Z, you are on a tangent chase on word plays that obfuscate the pivotal differences; rhetoric not insight. I have long since pointed out that F dot dx is work. For ice, that work is a built in mechanical ordering. For a computer or a protein, the functionally specific organisation per prescriptive information and programmed step by step contingent actions, is not mechanical necessity, nor is it credibly chance. I suggest you re-read Orgel and Wicken above from 40 years ago. KFkairosfocus
December 29, 2015
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kairosfocus: Water crystallises in the patterns due to built in ordering forces that make the crystallisation a mechanical necessity once sufficient random kinetic energy (thermal agitation) is removed by cooling. In other words, it requires thermodynamic work. kairosfocus: Wiring diagram functional organisation is a very small cluster in the space of available contingent possibilities under the same conditions, which is where the needle in haystack challenge comes in. So is a snowflake in the absence of thermodynamic work, as per your own example of molecules of gas going to one side of the room. Without work being done, there are no computers or snowflakes.Zachriel
December 29, 2015
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Z, your lame attempt to equate crystallisation of a polar molecule with wiring diagram directed constructive work fails. Water crystallises in the patterns due to built in ordering forces that make the crystallisation a mechanical necessity once sufficient random kinetic energy (thermal agitation) is removed by cooling. Wiring diagram functional organisation is a very small cluster in the space of available contingent possibilities under the same conditions, which is where the needle in haystack challenge comes in. Hence the need for programmed organisation to get it to a functional form. And usually, first time up there has to be a lot of troubleshooting to fix errors in our designs. KFkairosfocus
December 29, 2015
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Mung: Is work even possible without entropy? If you mean without an increase in overall entropy, the answer is no.Zachriel
December 29, 2015
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Zachriel: And it is just as unlikely that water will form into snowflakes — in the absence of work. Is work even possible without entropy?Mung
December 29, 2015
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kairosfocus: For just one simple comparison, the spontaneous emergence of a case where the O2 molecules in the room in which you sit all rush to one end is abstractly statistically possible but so overwhelmed by the bulk clusters of configs — the equilibrium — that such is unobservable on the gamut of the observed cosmos. Mung: Exactly! And it is just as unlikely that water will form into snowflakes — in the absence of work.Zachriel
December 29, 2015
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For just one simple comparison, the spontaneous emergence of a case where the O2 molecules in the room in which you sit all rush to one end is abstractly statistically possible...
Exactly!Mung
December 29, 2015
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kairosfocus: This is a case where heat and energy flows through machinery that generates first shaft work then transforms that into functionally specific, organising constructive work and emission of waste heat are all pivotal to why 2LOT is consistent with the assembly of a computer. If you mean work is involved, then sure. Is that what you mean? kairosfocus: Your snowflake was an analogy that failed, you confuse complexity with specified complexity. It’s not an analogy, and there’s nothing about “specified complexity” in the laws of thermodynamics.Zachriel
December 29, 2015
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Z, if you think my answer with explanatory remarks is irrelevant; with all due respect, it shows that you do not understand the subject. This is a case where heat and energy flows through machinery that generates first shaft work then transforms that into functionally specific, organising constructive work and emission of waste heat are all pivotal to why 2LOT is consistent with the assembly of a computer. This is not a simplistic yes no issue. The key point being, raw energy flows are not reasonably expected to produce the constructive work. Your underlying problem is most likely, that you want molecular noise in Darwin's pond or the like to do the same constructive work, confronting you with the needle in haystack problem with config spaces that dwarf the search resources of the observed cosmos. For over 100 years now, too, the laws of thermodynamics, classical form, are rooted in statistical considerations and config or phase spaces. In that deeper context,the issue of accessing deeply isolated, complex and specific clusters of configs are deeply and directly connected to the laws. For just one simple comparison, the spontaneous emergence of a case where the O2 molecules in the room in which you sit all rush to one end is abstractly statistically possible but so overwhelmed by the bulk clusters of configs -- the equilibrium -- that such is unobservable on the gamut of the observed cosmos. The spontaneous emergence of FSCO/I will predictably be unobservable absent energy converters giving shaft work to drive programmed constructors for much the same reason. Dismissive talking points about "irrelevance" in this context, simply tell me that you are resisting the key -- highly material -- points as they do not fot the simplistic notion that effectively magic happens in open systems. Not when complexity and functional specificity lead to needle in haystack search challenges beyond the reasonable scope of the observed cosmos. KFkairosfocus
December 29, 2015
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kairosfocus: So your assumption that I did not respond is false — and I bolded to make that plain. Yes, you did answer a simple yes and no question with a lot of irrelevant words. We are in agreement, though, on this: Building and using a computer is consistent with the laws of thermodynamics. kairosfocus: Your snowflake was an analogy that failed, you confuse complexity with specified complexity. It’s not an analogy, and there’s nothing about “complex specificity” in the laws of thermodynamics.Zachriel
December 29, 2015
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Alicia Cartelli:
The first living things had to develop metabolic systems that counteracted entropy and life must constantly continue to do this.
More evidence that Alicia doesn't know what life is. What Alicia no doubt meant to say is that non-living systems had to "counteract entropy" in order for living systems to come into existence, but she knows how silly that sounds.Mung
December 29, 2015
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Once you leave the molecular level and start talking about entire cells/tissues/organs, entropy really isn’t part of the conversation.
LoL. And yet we have Zachriel: So building and using computers is consistent with the laws of thermodynamics.Mung
December 29, 2015
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AC, the CONVERSATION, maybe -- one dominated by an admitted evolutionary materialistic scientism. But in reality the cell is a molecular scale functional organised entity and its workhorse components are proteins created by step by step molecular scale assemblers. This implies accounting for molecular components, cell types, spatial organisation to function, tissues in integrated organs, with associated systems and networks in an embryologically and ecologically feasible body plan. 50 cell types is a reasonable estimate, and overall requisites are of order 10 - 100+ mn base pairs to account for the novel proteins (and presumably some regulatory capacity). With 100+ mn actually consistently observed. As just 1,000 bits of FSCO/I already overwhelms the blind chance and necessity needles in a haystack search challenge on observed cosmos resources, there is only one observed causal factor capable of such designs: intelligently, purposefully directed configuration. KFkairosfocus
December 29, 2015
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Entropy is an important part of the equation for the origin of life, yearning. The first living things had to develop metabolic systems that counteracted entropy and life must constantly continue to do this. Once you leave the molecular level and start talking about entire cells/tissues/organs, entropy really isn't part of the conversation.Alicia Cartelli
December 28, 2015
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Z, First, I took time to explain in brief how a PC is made and in so doing, where the accord with thermodynamics principles arises; also explaining briefly what work is: forced, ordered motion . . . dW = F dot dx. I have no desire to try to go into mixed first and second law analysis here; I assume you know the Sankey diagram of a heat engine. So your assumption that I did not respond is false -- and I bolded to make that plain. Second, there seems to be a problem of the misconstrued argument rooted in what seem to be serious conceptual gaps. If that is the case, you may find here on http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Info_design_and_science.htm#shnn_info and here on http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Info_design_and_science.htm#thermod helpful. KFkairosfocus
December 28, 2015
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You seem unable to respond directly to arguments as they are raised. LoL. Good one!Mung
December 28, 2015
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