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But why does Richard Dawkins trust his reason?

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We get mail. A friend writes to explain why Richard Dawkins, even though he is a metaphysical naturalist (nature is all there is), trusts his own reason. The argument goes something like this:

I trust my own reason because it proves itself useful time and time again, and until someone can demonstrate that reason isn’t to be trusted, there’s no reason to think otherwise.

We thought that sounded odd because it is his reason that tells him that it is useful. But then it would, right? And what if it didn’t? What then?

Other naturalist atheists say that our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth, so Dawkins’s conclusion is part of a fitness function—but how would he know that, given that consciousness is a user illusion anyway?

Michael Flannery

We asked science historian Michael Flannery what he thought, and he replied,

This argument from reason, a la Dawkins, goes nowhere. I can suggest at least three reasons.

1) As a Christian, my faith is founded upon the historical reliability of Scripture and the logical coherence of arguments by Augustine and others. Dawkins may find his reason “useful” but why do his rational conclusions trump mine? The Argument from Reason, in this sense, simply begs the question.

2) In arguing for the “usefulness” of something indicates pragmatism, but neither of the leading pragmatists I can think of (i.e. Charles Sanders Pierce and William James) would have supported the rank scientism espoused by Dawkins and his ilk.

3) If Darwin was right (as I’m sure Dawkins would insist) that we have no free will and we are nothing but the product of blind “laws of nature,” on what basis can we trust our own reason? Darwin himself admitted as much when he wrote to William Graham, “But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?” Where does that leave this so-called argument from reason?

Readers? Your thoughts?

It’s curious that someone would be arguing this in an age when, as we noted earlier today, science is becoming increasingly post-fact, and objectivity is sexist. (And that we need the right kind of post-fact science to help women succeed.)

One senses that science in the new evolutionary post-reality world is not something that, Einstein, for example, would recognize.

See also: Einstein: Deist, pantheist—or theist?

Evolution bred a sense of reality out of us

and

Richard Dawkins needs to lie down

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Comments
Nothing can give us an assurance of trustworthiness.
You say this like you are certain. You can't be. Right? Andrewasauber
March 29, 2017
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Flannery,
why would Dawkins’s reason trump mine?
I'm not saying that it does. But you're criticizing Dawkins for making a circular argument when your argument is just as circular.
Actually, the real reason it can’t is that reliance upon purely material, chance-based causes gives no assurance of trustworthiness
Nothing can give us an assurance of trustworthiness. Any argument we can attempt to make that we are reasonable is itself reliant on us being reasonable. All of us believe we are reasonable only because, well, it seems like we are, and we have no choice but to act under that assumption. The disagreement is only on how it is that we became reasonable.goodusername
March 29, 2017
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Goodusername @ 15, Either that first step must be taken or no step can be taken at all. If there is, in fact, "no point in doing any examination unless one assumes that there’s any chance that the results of an examination will make any sense" unless the trustworthiness of reason is assumed, then agreed. But then again, back to the original point, why would Dawkins's reason trump mine? Actually, the real reason it can't is that reliance upon purely material, chance-based causes gives no assurance of trustworthiness; again, this is precisely what Darwin recognized. If no one can be assured of the trustworthiness of reason then we're done. End of discussion. There's no question begging in this case because there's no question (certainly no reliable question) in the first place. All is nihilism, but I don't think Dawkins subscribes to this kind of post-modernism. Actually, Phinehas @ 17 summarizes it rather nicely.Flannery
March 29, 2017
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GUN:
Assuming that there’s a God that gave us trustworthy reason is not grounding trustworthy reason.
If you assume, arguendo, that the human mind is the trustworthy design of a capable, reasoning and trustworthy designer, then you may indeed conclude trustworthy human reason. If you assume, arguendo, that the human mind is the product of purposeless and naturalistic processes that did not have it in mind, you can conclude no such thing. The first assumption can get you somewhere. The second gets you absolutely nowhere. Ever. Even if you add an appeal to fantastically improbable serendipity, you call you ability to be reasonable into question by doing so.Phinehas
March 29, 2017
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Origenes,
Goodusername @6 You make a very important point: Trusting one’s reason is prerequisite to trusting one’s reason. What no one can do is evaluating one’s own reason from an independent external ‘irreproachable’ position. In this sense one cannot step outside of oneself. Those who demand understanding have no choice but to trust their reason. If reason is not to be trusted*, then truth is out of reach. Indeed, we must assume reason to be trustworthy. So, yes, trustworthy reason is an assumption and “we are all in the same boat”. However, and this is important, we must all make sure that subsequent beliefs do not interfere with the assumption of trustworthy reason. I would like to argue that materialism does no such thing. Materialism utterly fails to provide grounds for a trustworthy reason. – – – – (*) Note that fundamentally distrusting one’s reason is an incoherent state, somewhat akin to the liar paradox.
I pretty much agree with all of that - even that materialism fails to ground trustworthy reason: I believe that reason/mind did come about naturally and via evolution, but I have no idea how that occurred. Of course, that's different than saying that it couldn't have occurred naturally. I have no idea how matter does most of the things that it does, or what matter is capable of doing. If we do discover (somehow) that reason/mind is impossible under materialism, than that will mean that there must be something beyond materialism, not that reason/mind doesn't exist. But theism also fails to ground trustworthy reason. Assuming that there's a God that gave us trustworthy reason is not grounding trustworthy reason. IMO no worldview (as of yet) grounds reason in the least.goodusername
March 29, 2017
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Flannery,
My beliefs are drawn from historical analysis and logical argument itself. Before Goddusername can claim any “question begging” on my part, the sources of those claims should be examined first.
No, that isn't the first step. There's no point in doing any examination unless one assumes that there's any chance that the results of an examination will makes any sense. And to assume that the results of any examination will make sense one must assume that one has reason that is (more or less) trustworthy. And so any examination as to whether we have reason is going to be begging the question.goodusername
March 29, 2017
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KF, I am sure that you already know, Charles Darwin also appears to have also been disturbed by this question. He wrote in a letter to a friend: "With me," says Darwin, "the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would anyone trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" Patricia Churchland, a philosopher who specializes in issues raised by cognitive science, has argued that the way our nervous system and brain evolved they cannot be expected to give reliable knowledge and beliefs. “Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succeed in the four F's: feeding, fleeing, fighting, and reproducing. The principle chore of nervous systems is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive. . . . . Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism's way of life and enhances the organism's chances of survival. Truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost.” According to retired University of Notre Dame philosopher Alvin Plantinga, .“Darwin and Churchland seem to believe that (naturalistic) evolution gives one a reason to doubt that human cognitive faculties are reliable (produce mostly true beliefs): call this; Darwins Doubt.” Plantinga, on the other hand, argues that: “The traditional theist… has no corresponding reason for doubting that it is a purpose of our cognitive systems to produce true beliefs, nor any reason for thinking the probability of a belief's being true, given that it is a product of her cognitive faculties, is low or inscrutable. She may indeed endorse some form of evolution; but if she does, it will be a form of evolution guided and orchestrated by God. And qua traditional theist -- qua Jewish, Moslem, or Christian theist - she believes that God is the premier knower and has created us human beings in his image, an important part of which involves his giving them what is needed to have knowledge, just as he does.” In other words, theism provides a sufficient foundation for truth and knowledge. Naturalists like Darwin, Haldane, Churchland and others concede that naturalism does not provide a sufficient foundation. Our interlocutors, on the other hand, run away and hide when confronted with this fact. Why is that?john_a_designer
March 29, 2017
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Folks, I always find J B S Haldane (a co-founder of the neo-Darwinian synthesis FYI, GUN) to be highly relevant:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (NB: DI Fellow, Nancy Pearcey brings this right up to date (HT: ENV) in a current book, Finding Truth.)]
When GUN et al can address that without falling into the fallacy of grand delusion, then we can have something to discuss, a way to discuss and someone with whom to discuss. I predict, GUN et al will duck this, as usual. KFkairosfocus
March 29, 2017
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It is not a matter of what one believes about the reliability of his own reasoning (truth detecting) capabilities but whether one can explain such capabilities on the basis of his world view. Naturalists/ materialists like Dawkins begin with the assumption that our minds-- our reasoning/ truth detecting capabilities-- are the result of non-teleological mindless process. Theists, on the other hand, begin with the assumption that our minds are a creation of a Mind. The burden of proof is on those who try to explain how a mindless process, like Darwinian naturalistic evolution, can “create” minds in the first place then furthermore minds with reliable truth detecting capabilities. Remember, Dawkins is arguing that his world view is based on empirical science. Therefore, he should be able to give me a compelling and objective science based explanation (“proof”) of how mindlessness creates minds. Where has he ever done this?john_a_designer
March 29, 2017
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The problem materialists have is that if they claim they are carrying on a rational debate, they are necessarily implying they have a supernatural capacity to recognize and implement (over brute physical cause) logical reasoning. Otherwise, they have no capacity to actually understand logic (other than some personal, chemical-produced view of it) or to override the brute, happenstance chemical interactions that cause every thought and word. Also, in making a rational argument, we must assume that the other guy has the same supernatural capacity - to understand the same logical principles and rules in the same way and be able to supernaturally override the happenstance brain patterns his or her particular organic chemistry generates. If there is no such presumed capacity, then all our words and thoughts are just sound and fury signifying nothing other than solipsistic thoughts generated by happenstance physical events. Why even bother to make "arguments" if that is the case? Neither you or the other guy can be "wrong" about anything, because chemistry and physics just produce whatever they produce. A thought or belief can no more be "wrong" than a pattern on a butterfly's wings can be "wrong". With no supernatural capacity to recognize objective truth and install it over the wishes of one's own biochemistry, "truth" is just whatever our solipsistic biochemistry says it is. You might as well be a maple leaf arguing with an oak leaf that it's the "wrong" shape.William J Murray
March 29, 2017
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Goodusername @ 4 claims my proposition #2 "begs the question" as if the arguments claimed by Dawkins and my own were equivalent. They are not. The essential claim of Darwinian naturalism is (as quoted by Darwin himself) rooted in the human/animal continuity of the mind, and Darwin was right in suggesting that there was no reason to trust such a mind.My beliefs are drawn from historical analysis and logical argument itself. Before Goddusername can claim any "question begging" on my part, the sources of those claims should be examined first. Here are a few of them: 1) Craig Blomberg, The Historical Reliability of the Gospels (1987); 2) Paul Rhodes Eddy and Gregory A. Boyd, The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition; 3) John Haley, Alleged Discrepancies of Bible (1992); 4) Peter Kreeft, Christianity for Modern Pagans: Pascal's Pensees (1993); 5) Augustine, The City of God. But there are further reasons of a more personal and immediate nature with which we must deal. Indeed the pragmatism suggested in the "usefulness" of rationality is actually a powerful argument for theism. As David Elton Trueblood wrote in his Logic of Belief (1942), "The fact that religious experience occurs is a fact with which every philosophy must eventually deal. The claim which such experience makes, the claim to actual contact, not merely with persons and things, but with the Creator and Sustainer of the universe, is so stupendous and so insistent that it cannot be neglected. Our philosophy must either explain it away or construct a world view consistent with it." Now Goodusername is welcome to claim all these sources and claims are wrong, but only after a full and fair examination of them. Because each of these works identifies the human condition as being special and uniquely apart from the animal kingdom, they all rest on fundamentally different grounds from those of Dawkins and Darwin. In short, if these are true we really aren't "in the same boat," or if we are it's not exactly the "boat" Goodusername expected to be in.Flannery
March 29, 2017
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KF, I googled “grand delusion” and found this article at Newscientist
This might come as a shock, but everything you think is wrong. Much of what you take for granted about day-to-day existence is largely a figment of your imagination. From your senses to your memory, your opinions and beliefs, how you see yourself and others and even your sense of free will, things are not as they seem. The power these delusions hold over you is staggering …
These lines ooze materialism. Why? Materialism desperately wants to instill us with the belief that everything at the macro-level is but an illusion. Everything at the macro-level which presents itself as one indivisible thing is in fact not. ‘All oneness at the macro-level is an illusion’ is the ‘great insight’ of materialism. What materialists forget, again, again and again, is that there is no irreproachable position, external to oneself, from which one can say “everything I think is wrong”. So the opening line of the article “This might come as a shock, but everything you think is wrong.” is simply incoherent. One cannot coherently state “everything I think is wrong — including this statement”. This mistake is foundational to materialism and cannot be avoided. Even Alex Rosenberg makes the exact same mistake again, again and again. In his book ‘The Atheist’s Guide To Reality’ Rosenberg consistently writes from some detached irreproachable standpoint which simply cannot exist. A few insane examples:
“We have to see very clearly that introspection tricks us into the illusion that our thoughts are about anything at all.” … “Scientism shows that the first-person POV is an illusion. Even after scientism convinces us, we’ll continue to stick with the first person. But at least we’ll know that it’s another illusion of introspection and we’ll stop taking it seriously. We’ll give up all the answers to the persistent questions about free will, the self, the soul, and the meaning of life that the illusion generates.” … “In Chapter 8 we saw that the “thoughts” in the brain can’t be about anything at all, either things inside or outside the brain.”
- - - - - - Edit: only now I notice that Rosenberg uses "see" (and "saw") instead of "understand" — "We have to see very clearly ...". Indeed, it sounds better than "we have to understand very clearly ... that we do not understand anything", but nonetheless it's not very convincing :)Origenes
March 29, 2017
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Origines, any scheme that sets grand delusion loose on any major faculty of mind is to be set aside as absurdly self-refuting, as it undercuts itself in a context where there are no convenient firewalls. For example, moral confusion leads to undermining the conscience's urges to the truth and the right, which are key to responsible, rational thought. Evolutionary materialism -- a core component of Dawkins' views -- is of course amoral. Other ideologies constructed to be fellow travellers then fall under the same absurdities. And that's before we get to the gulch between blindly mechanical GIGO-limited computation on a substrate and the contemplative freedom that is a pre-requisite of responsible, rational thought. Never mind the lab coat and institutional dominance, evo mat is self-defeating and ruinous. KFkairosfocus
March 29, 2017
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Goodusername @6 You make a very important point: Trusting one’s reason is prerequisite to trusting one’s reason. What no one can do is evaluating one’s own reason from an independent external 'irreproachable' position. In this sense one cannot step outside of oneself. Those who demand understanding have no choice but to trust their reason. If reason is not to be trusted*, then truth is out of reach. Indeed, we must assume reason to be trustworthy. So, yes, trustworthy reason is an assumption and “we are all in the same boat”. However, and this is important, we must all make sure that subsequent beliefs do not interfere with the assumption of trustworthy reason. I would like to argue that materialism does no such thing. Materialism utterly fails to provide grounds for a trustworthy reason. - - - - (*) Note that fundamentally distrusting one’s reason is an incoherent state, somewhat akin to the liar paradox.Origenes
March 29, 2017
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Not quite, given our differences wrt the origin of reason, I would say that it makes good sense for theists to trust reason, while for materialists trusting reason makes no sense whatsoever.
But you must already trust your reason for you to trust your reason that that is the reason that you can believe that you can trust your reason. So believing in God obviously isn't the reason you believe that you can trust your reason. You also can't be any more sure that God gave you reason than you are already sure of your own reason. You trust your reason for the same reason that materialists trust their reason.goodusername
March 28, 2017
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goodusername: There are obviously different opinions on where our reason came from ...
Indeed. Theists hold that reason stems from a free responsible rational person. Materialists, on the other hand, hold that reason comes from blind non-rational particles bumping into each other.
goodusername: ... but when it comes to whether we can actually trust our reason, we’re all in the same boat.
Not quite, given our differences wrt the origin of reason, I would say that it makes good sense for theists to trust reason, while for materialists trusting reason makes no sense whatsoever.Origenes
March 28, 2017
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As a Christian, my faith is founded upon the historical reliability of Scripture and the logical coherence of arguments by Augustine and others. Dawkins may find his reason “useful” but why do his rational conclusions trump mine? The Argument from Reason, in this sense, simply begs the question.
And Flannery's argument isn't begging the question? He may believe as a Christian that God gave him reason, but in doing so he's trusting his own reason that the reasons he believes he has reason are reasonable - and around we go. There are obviously different opinions on where our reason came from, but when it comes to whether we can actually trust our reason, we're all in the same boat.goodusername
March 28, 2017
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There is no Richard Dawkins who trusts his reason — there are just fermions and bosons. And even if there were a Richard Dawkins, then the act of trusting his reason would not stem top-down from Richard Dawkins as a person, but from the level of non-rational fermions and bosons. And even if there would be a person with the ability to trust or not to trust his reason, then this act would not be by free will.Origenes
March 28, 2017
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trusts his own reason
I recall some readers got in a huff about "what makes sense to us". What's the difference? Andrewasauber
March 28, 2017
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I spend VERY MUCH more time reading History and Politics than I do Science, and I can tell you that once you get past names and dates (and even names and dates are often argued), there simply AREN'T any facts. There are of course the currently approved explanations for WHO was responsible for some documented event and WHY the event is important, but even more than in Science, History changes based on the deaths of Patriarchs who OWNED World War 1, etc. By the 1930s it as widely accepted in the US and Britain that WW1 had CONTINUED after the opening battles (Germany sought an end to the fighting before Christmas, 1914) because of the War Profiteers, who were making more money than anyone could count. But these facts were again buried as WW2 approached, and leaders in Britain and the US could ONLY hope to convince the new generation of young men to go die in trenches by returning to the myth of Evil Germany. So the facts changed again, and the officially approved facts remained facts well into the 1970s, when writers disillusioned by Vietnam began to once again question the right of some men to make money through the deaths of another generation of young men (and of course uncounted millions of noncombatant women and children). So, facts, beyond basic Arithmetic and Mechanics, are things that we choose to agree on for a generation or 2. And of course, if you're a Marxist, you START by rejecting all the facts of the mainstream society.mahuna
March 28, 2017
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