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Can a Darwinist consistently condemn a con man who couldn’t have done otherwise?

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Some readers will recall the case of the Dutch psychologist Diederik Stapel, former dean of the School of Social and Behavioral Sciences at Tilburg University, who was publicly exposed in 2011 for faking his data in several dozen published papers about human behavior that had made him famous – and who, after being caught, decided to publish a book about his con, detailing how and why he’d done it. Uncommon Descent ran a story about the case (see here), and another story about how it was exposed (see here), while James Barham discussed it at further length over on his blog, TheBestSchools.org, in an article entitled, More Scientists Behaving Badly. A story about the case appeared in The New York Times last week: The Mind of a Con Man, by Yudhijit Bhattacharjee.

The case has become something of an academic scandal, not merely because of the fraud perpetrated by Stapel, who doctored his data in at least 55 of his own papers, as well as 10 Ph.D. dissertations written by his students, but also because it cast the entire field of behavioral psychology into disrepute. In their final report on the case at the end of November 2011, the universities of Groningen and Tilburg found that “a general culture of careless, selective and uncritical handling of research and data” was what enabled Stapel’s fraud to go undetected for so long. While the report laid the blame for the fraud solely at Stapel’s feet and exonerated his students of any wrongdoing, it went on to blame Stapel’s peers, journal editors and reviewers of the field’s top journals for letting him get away with his fakery for a period of several years.

During his interview with Yudhijit Bhattacharjee for The New York Times, Stapel recalled his first fateful decision to doctor his research data, after a psychology experiment that went badly wrong:

The experiment — and others like it — didn’t give Stapel the desired results, he said. He had the choice of abandoning the work or redoing the experiment. But he had already spent a lot of time on the research and was convinced his hypothesis was valid. “I said — you know what, I am going to create the data set,” he told me.

… It took a few hours of trial and error, spread out over a few days, to get the data just right.

He said he felt both terrible and relieved. The results were published in The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology in 2004. “I realized — hey, we can do this,” he told me.

Stapel also professed contrition for his past misdeeds in the interview, as he attempted to explain his motivations for committing academic fraud:

Right away Stapel expressed what sounded like heartfelt remorse for what he did to his students. “I have fallen from my throne — I am on the floor,” he said, waving at the ground. “I am in therapy every week. I hate myself.”…

Stapel did not deny that his deceit was driven by ambition. But it was more complicated than that, he told me. He insisted that he loved social psychology but had been frustrated by the messiness of experimental data, which rarely led to clear conclusions. His lifelong obsession with elegance and order, he said, led him to concoct sexy results that journals found attractive. “It was a quest for aesthetics, for beauty — instead of the truth,” he said. He described his behavior as an addiction that drove him to carry out acts of increasingly daring fraud, like a junkie seeking a bigger and better high.

For my part, I hope that Stapel is as sorry as he declared himself to be, in his interview, and I have no wish to accuse him of insincerity. God alone knows the true state of his mind; God alone can judge him. It seems, however, that many people have questioned the sincerity of Stapel’s apology, following his recent decision to publish a book (called Derailed) describing how he pulled off his con. Among the cynics is Professor Jerry Coyne, who, in a recent post (April 27, 2013) over at Why Evolution is True, wrote:

He seems to mistake explanation for apology, and I think his only regret is that he got caught…

Stapel gives a lot of excuses but his apologies sound lame…

I don’t blame the system nearly as much as I do Stapel here. I think his students are also at fault: how can you put your name on a Ph.D. dissertation if you didn’t collect the data yourself?

…Yes, Stapel became depressed, but it seems more because he was found out, not because he committed fraud and ruined the careers of many of his students.

Coyne on why hard determinism entails that we are not morally responsible for our actions

What I find curious about Professor Coyne’s comments is that he blames Stapel for his actions, despite the fact that he is a “hard” determinist who denies the very notion of moral responsibility. In an article for The Chronicle Review entitled, You Don’t Have Free Will (March 18, 2012), Coyne spelt out with admirable lucidity the consequences of his deterministic philosophy:

So what are the consequences of realizing that physical determinism negates our ability to choose freely? Well, nihilism is not an option: We humans are so constituted, through evolution or otherwise, to believe that we can choose. What is seriously affected is our idea of moral responsibility, which should be discarded along with the idea of free will. If whether we act well or badly is predetermined rather than a real choice, then there is no moral responsibility — only actions that hurt or help others. That realization shouldn’t seriously change the way we punish or reward people, because we still need to protect society from criminals, and observing punishment or reward can alter the brains of others, acting as a deterrent or stimulus. What we should discard is the idea of punishment as retribution, which rests on the false notion that people can choose to do wrong.

In an exchange last year with “soft” determinist philosopher Russell Blackford, who thinks determinism is compatible with moral responsibility, Coyne discussed Blackford’s hypothetical case of a child who drowns in a pond while he stands by and does nothing to help the child. Are the child’s parents entitled to blame him, even if he insists that he couldn’t have done otherwise? Blackford certainly thought so: he argued that if he had wanted to, he could have saved the child, and for this reason, the parents’ anger against him would have been entirely justifiable, in this hypothetical scenario. Coyne pointed out (with perfect consistency) that if Blackford’s wants were determined by his genes and his environment, then there was no meaningful sense in which he could have done otherwise, and that therefore he was not to blame for his failure to save the child:

Yes, of course if you change the “desire-set” construed in that way, then your actions would have been different. But, Russell, your desire-set is fixed by your molecules: by your genes, physiology, and the determined environmental factors that impinge on them…

What it appears to boil down to … is whether or not the parents of the drowned child have a right to reproach Blackford for his dilatory and selfish behavior…

But in what sense are they “quite right” to complain that Russell didn’t save their child? They certainly feel aggrieved about this, for such feelings are evolved and powerful, but in my view Russell had no “moral responsibility” to save the child: he could only do what he did.

Coyne went on to add that the parents could express disapprobation at Blackford for his negligence in failing to save the child:

Yes, the parents could complain about what he didn’t do, and that, indeed, may affect not only Russell’s future behavior, making him more altruistic, but influence others to act more altruistically in the future. (Nobody — even pure determinists — deny that social approbation or disapprobation can influence people’s future behavior.)

But as Coyne explained in a follow-up response to Blackford (April 9, 2012), what made no sense, in his view, was their expressing moral indignation:

But he [Blackford] later argues that one can rightly blame someone for failing to save a drowning child. Note the word “rightly,” which assumes not just responsibility (which is okay with me, as blame changes future behavior, both of the “blamee” and onlookers), but moral responsibility. Russell certainly favors the idea of moral responsibility. But if he sees difficulty in understanding how one can be responsible for one’s own character (and he’s right: how could we be?), then whence the concept of moral responsibility?

To recap: Professor Coyne believes that we are not morally responsible for our actions, and that righteous indignation at people who engage in anti-social behavior is a misplaced emotion, which makes no sense as each of us is a biological automaton. We can express disapproval, and even “blame” people for their actions, if our aim is merely to prevent future recurrences of this behavior on the part of the individual concerned – or other individuals who might be inclined to imitate him. But what we cannot do, if we are consistent determinists, is express moral outrage at the offending individual.

Coyne’s inconsistency

Coyne’s latest comments in his recent post (April 27, 2012) on the scandal involving Dutch psychologist Diederik Stapel thus appear to be totally at odds with his declared views on determinism and free will, as he vents his spleen on a respected academic who faked his research data. There is an undeniable tone of indignation in Coyne’s remarks about Stapel: “He seems to mistake explanation for apology, and I think his only regret is that he got caught,” and he adds: “I don’t blame the system nearly as much as I do Stapel… Yes, Stapel became depressed, but it seems more because he was found out, not because he committed fraud and ruined the careers of many of his students.”

Professor Coyne seems to be implying here that Stapel should have thought about how his acts of deceit would impinge on the lives of others, and that he deserves blame for not having done so. “Should have” implies “could have.” But if Stapel’s thoughts and desires are the product of his genes and his environment, then in what sense could he have done otherwise than what he did, and how can he be blamed (in any moral sense of the word) for failing to advert to the effects that his act would have on other people? On Coyne’s account, Stapel’s failure to think of the needs of others ultimately reflects either a failure in his upbringing or a flaw in his genome. He couldn’t help that, so why reproach him for it? I can see why Coyne would want to reprogram Stapel’s stunted psyche, but I cannot for the life of me understand how Coyne, as a hard determinist who denies moral responsibility, could complain about Stapel’s thoughtlessness in committing acts which “ruined the careers of many of his students.” If Stapel couldn’t have refrained from committing those acts, then it makes no sense to say that he shouldn’t have done them. All that Coyne can consistently say is that acts like Stapel’s shouldn’t happen, insofar as they harm the interests of others and of society as a whole. But that’s simply tantamount to saying that society should try to prevent such acts from occurring – which is quite different from saying that the perpetrators of such acts shouldn’t have done them.

Why Charles Darwin would not have blamed Stapel for his actions

Coyne’s inability to justify the feeling of moral indignation which we commonly experience reflects a failing, not only in his own deterministic philosophy, but of Darwinism in general. Few people are aware that Darwin was a thorough-going determinist who denied the notion of moral responsibility as far back as 1837, some 22 years before the publication of his Origin of Species.

In his Notebook C: Transmutation of species (2-7.1838), Darwin espoused a mechanistic account of the human mind. The mis-spellings and grammar and punctuation errors are Darwin’s:

Thought (or desires more properly) being heredetary.- it is difficult to imagine it anything but structure of brain heredetary,. – analogy points out to this.- love of the deity effect of organization. oh you Materialist!

Why is thought, being a secretion of brain, more wonderful than gravity a property of matter? – It is our arrogance, it our admiration of ourselves. (Paragraph 166)

In his Notebook M [Metaphysics on morals and speculations on expression (1838) CUL-DAR125], which was marked “Private”, Darwin recorded his decision not to go public with his materialism. He resolved:

To avoid stating how far, I believe, in Materialism, say only that emotions, instincts degrees of talent, which are heredetary are so because brain of child resembles parent stock. (Paragraph 57)

In addition to being a materialist, Darwin was also a consistent determinist. In his other metaphysical writings from that period (c. 1837), Darwin made it clear that he did not really regard human beings as morally responsible for their good or bad choices. He also held that criminals should be punished solely in order to deter others who might break the law:

(a) one well feels how many actions are not determined by what is called free will, but by strong invariable passions — when these passions weak, opposed & complicated one calls them free will — the chance of mechanical phenomena.— (mem: M. Le Comte one of philosophy, & savage calling laws of nature chance)…

The general delusion about free will obvious.— because man has power of action, & he can seldom analyse his motives (originally mostly INSTINCTIVE, & therefore now great effort of reason to discover them: this is important explanation) he thinks they have none.

Effects.— One must view a wrecked man like a sickly one — We cannot help loathing a diseased offensive object, so we view wickedness.— it would however be more proper to pity them [than] to hate & be disgusted with them. Yet it is right to punish criminals; but solely to deter others.— It is not more strange that there should be necessary wickedness than disease.

This view should teach one profound humility, one deserves no credit for anything. (yet one takes it for beauty & good temper), nor ought one to blame others.

(See Darwin’s Old and USELESS Notes about the moral sense & some metaphysical points written about the year 1837 & earlier, pp. 25-27. For original transcription, see Paul Barrett, et al., Charles Darwin’s Notebooks, 1836-1844, New York: Cornell University Press, 1987, p. 608.)

A true disciple of Darwin, then, would find it impossible to blame Diederik Stapel for his acts of academic fraud. On Darwin’s view, a man like Stapel is simply “a diseased offensive object,” whom we should pity rather than blame – even if we feel the need to punish him, in order to deter others from imitating his example.

While he may have concealed his philosophical views from the public at large, Darwin was scrupulously honest in his scientific research. He believed that science is a quest for Truth with a capital T, and he also believed in carefully setting forth the objections to a theory before proceeding to refute them. On this point, his views diverged sharply from the recently expressed views of Dutch psychologist Diederik Stapel, who revealed in his New York Times interview with Yudhijit Bhattacharjee that it was his purely pragmatic notion of “truth” that enabled him to rationalize his deed:

Several times in our conversation, Stapel alluded to having a fuzzy, postmodernist relationship with the truth, which he agreed served as a convenient fog for his wrongdoings. “It’s hard to know the truth,” he said. “When somebody says, ‘I love you,’ how do I know what it really means?” At the time, the Netherlands would soon be celebrating the arrival of St. Nicholas, and the younger of his two daughters sat down by the fireplace to sing a traditional Dutch song welcoming St. Nick. Stapel remarked to me that children her age, which was 10, knew that St. Nick wasn’t really going to come down the chimney. “But they like to believe it anyway, because it assures them of presents,” he told me with a wink.

Apparently Stapel defines truth as “whatever works.” And it was this pragmatic notion of “truth” that enabled Stapel to rationalize his original act of academic fraud, as he acknowledged in his interview:

The experiment — and others like it — didn’t give Stapel the desired results, he said. He had the choice of abandoning the work or redoing the experiment. But he had already spent a lot of time on the research and was convinced his hypothesis was valid. “I said — you know what, I am going to create the data set,” he told me.

The Darwinist conception of truth

What Stapel did raises an important ethical question, however: is there a fundamental contradiction between Darwin’s conception of truth with a capital T and Stapel’s pragmatic notion of truth? In particular, can a Darwinist consistently condemn falsifying research data, or for that matter, concocting bogus arguments, in order to persuade people that Darwinian evolution is true? I am not asking here whether Charles Darwin would have approved of such acts of deceit; I think we can all agree that he would have condemned them unequivocally. The question I am asking is whether Darwin’s philosophical worldview could legitimize deceit (the telling of small untruths) in the service of a “higher truth.” And I think the answer is “yes.” My grounds for this conclusion have to do with the nature of truth itself, as Darwinism (and more generally, scientific naturalism) conceives it.

Darwinism is wedded to a notion of methodological naturalism, which Darwin originally espoused because he believed that the only good scientific explanation is one which explains everything in terms of physical laws, which enable scientists to predict effects from causes, in a deterministic fashion. Darwin set out the conditions that he believed a good scientific explanation must satisfy in a short essay which he jotted down while he was reading selected passages from Dr. John MacCullough’s book, Proofs and Illustrations of the Attributes of God (London, James Duncan, Paternoster Row, 1837). For those who are interested, here’s the reference: Darwin, C. R. ‘Macculloch. Attrib of Deity’ [Essay on Theology and Natural Selection] (1838). CUL-DAR71.53-59. Viewers can read it here at Darwin Online.) Darwin’s essay contains a telling passage in section 5, which succinctly summarizes why Darwin believed that appeals to “the will of God” explained nothing:

N.B. The explanation of types of structure in classes — as resulting from the will of the deity, to create animals on certain plans, — is no explanation — it has not the character of a physical law /& is therefore utterly useless.— it foretells nothing/ because we know nothing of the will of the Deity, how it acts & whether constant or inconstant like that of man.— the cause given we know not the effect.

Darwinism’s implications for ethical truth

What, the reader will ask, does this have to do with the moral legitimacy of lying in the cause of science? The implication follows once we realize that on a naturalistic worldview, there can be no autonomous domain of objective ethical truths. Ethical principles are simply rules which allow us all to get along. Few Darwinists have articulated this point more perceptively than Professor Jerry Coyne. As he put it in a post entitled, Uncle Eric on scientism (December 12, 2012) in response to fellow atheist Eric Macdonald, Coyne took issue with Macdonald’s expressed belief that there are some actions which are objectively wrong. Coyne answered that while he also condemned certain barbaric actions as wrong, he could do so only in a subjective sense:

Now I agree, of course, that throwing acid in the face of Afghan schoolgirls for trying to learn is wrong. But it is not an “objective” moral wrong — that is, you cannot deduce it from mere observation, not without adding some reasons why you think it’s wrong. And those reasons are based on opinions. In this case, the “opinion” is that it’s wrong to hurt anyone for trying to go to school. In other words, Eric claims that moral dicta are objective ones, on the par with the “knowledge” of science.

But such dicta are not “truths,” but “guides for living”. And some people, like the odious Taliban who perpetuate these crimes, do disagree. How do you prove, objectively, that they’re wrong? You need to bring in other subjective criteria.

The problem with “objective” moral truths is much clearer in less clear-cut cases. Is it objectively true that abortion is wrong, or that a moral society must give everyone health care? You can’t ascertain these “truths” by observation; you deduce them from some general principles of right and wrong that are, at bottom, opinion. (Of course, some opinions are more well-founded than others, and that’s what philosophy is good for.)

In other words, Eric is committing here the very sin he decried (as I recall) in Sam Harris’s book The Moral Landscape: he is saying that there are scientifically establishable truths about ethics. And if that’s true, then let Eric tell us what those truths are — without first defining, based on his taste, what is “moral” and “immoral.” Let him give us a list of all the behaviors he considers objectively immoral.

Now, I maintain that there is no objective morality: that morality is a guide for how people should get along in society, and that what is “moral” comports in general with the rules we need to live by in a harmonious society — one with greater “well being,” as Harris puts it. A society in which half the inhabitants are dispossessed because they lack a Y chromosome is not a society brimming with well being, and I wouldn’t want to live in it. And yes, what promotes “well being” can in principle be established empirically. But that still presumes that the best society is one that promotes the greatest “well being,” and that is an opinion, not a fact.

Could a consistent Darwinist morally condemn deceit in the cause of Darwinism?

Which brings us to the question: Is a society which indoctrinates children with deceptively simple or fallacious arguments for Darwinism (say, arguments of the kind described in Dr. Jonathan Wells’ Icons of Evolution) doing a bad thing? On Coyne’s logic, a Darwinist cannot consistently condemn such behavior. Here’s why.

If you are totally convinced that:

(i) truth is a scientific notion;
(ii) truth can only ascertained by either logic or observation;
(iii) Darwinism is objectively true in a scientific sense of the term; and
(iv) a society which recognizes the reality of Darwinian evolution, is “better” – or at least, works better – than one that doesn’t,

then it seems to me that the logic of engaging in deceptive persuasion, in the cause of Darwinism, is inescapable.

I am not referring here to a scientist publishing data which could impede future scientific research, or that would be liable to be exposed, bringing science itself into disrepute. Let’s suppose instead that the deception is more subtle: say, a published study that serves to “refute” a popular scientific objection to Darwinism (e.g. is there enough time available for evolution?), and make creationists or Intelligent Design proponents look silly; or for that matter, continuing to publish, in children’s science textbooks, an old argument for Darwinism that’s been trotted out for decades (e.g. Haeckel’s embryo drawings) but which scientists now know to be false. If you passionately believed in the truth of Darwinism, and if your notion of truth were a naturalistic one, then I do not see how you could morally condemn such actions.

And I haven’t even mentioned the propaganda for the materialistic view of mind that pervades high school and university science textbooks. When was the last time you saw one that gave a fair hearing to scientific arguments for dualism, or exposed the fallacies (which I have written about here) in “scientific” claims that free will is an illusion? And when was the last time that students were exposed to rebuttals of fallacious arguments for materialism – despite the fact that even materialist philosophers such as William Lycan have acknowledged that there are no good arguments for materialism? Once you accept materialism, of course, then Darwinism becomes a much easier pill to swallow.

But it is materialism itself – a fundamentally false notion that clouds one’s entire view of the world – which is the ultimate deception. The story of Santa Claus pales in comparison.

P.S. For those readers who may have been wondering what I’ve been doing for the past month or so, I should explain that I’ve been working on a reply to a recent online essay on humans and animals, that’s somehow turned into a 30-chapter book! My apologies for the long delay. My book should be ready in a week or two.

Comments
A few comments I’d like to add. Firstly objective truth is easy to prove, its not some mystical thing beyond our grasp. 1.) Logic will still exist even if no humans exist. Example, the universe will still exist even if we get wiped by a meteor tomorrow. 2.) 1 + X = Y will still exist even if no humans are around after the meteor hit earth. 1 apple falling on the floor next to 3 more will still be 4. Opinions which is what people have are based on beliefs and those beliefs are shaped by how we choose to interpret the evidence. As a 34 year long materialist, my opinion changed because I chose to change them based on my choice to accept all the evidence. This is a state of intentionality and they can only exist in a non-deterministic world. The first question anybody has to ask is this…. Does immaterial things exist objectively outside of the human subjective? The answer is clearly yes. Logic is an example of that so with that in mind I have to accept that if one immaterial thing can exist then all of them can, I am not in a position to accept some and discard others if I do I become illogical. The funny part is this; even if I choose that some immaterial things exist and others don’t it was still done so by free choice. The problem I have noticed with materialists is that they use the immaterial to deny that it the immaterial exist, or they choose to ignore that there is more to the universe than material things. without the immaterial the material world cannot interact and if the material world can not interact nothing can exist.Andre
April 29, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
Obviously, a person cannot believe one thing and also believe something else at the same time. That point hardly needs any emphasis.
Do you mean a person cannot believe one thing and also its contradiction at the same time? Or do you mean a person can only think of one thing at a time? I really don't understand what you mean, I'm sorry.
Taking it one step further, the question is not, “Can I change my belief or beliefs?” or even “Can I identify the beliefs that I would like to hold and finally attain them? You seem to understand that it is, indeed, possible to do that, assuming that we are discussing the kinds of beliefs that influence moral behavior. Ultimately, those are the only kind that matter.
For me, the main question was indeed whether or not beliefs (of all types) were something under our voluntary control, the way our voluntary actions are. It seems to me that they are not: I do not have the ability to believe something that I do not believe simply by deciding to, and I don't think other people are able to do that either (but I'm not sure - at least one person here claims he can do just that).
In fact, how we behave affects what we believe and what we believe also affects how we behave.
Yes I agree with both of those statements. If we change our behavior, it may (or may not) eventually end up changing some of our beliefs. But that is very different from changing one's beliefs simply by an act of will. I can choose what I say, but I can't choose what I believe, and that is true for all sorts of beliefs.
In any significant change of belief, one either conforms truth to desire or he conforms desire to truth.
I think you're assuming that desire and truth are always at odds; I don't see why that would be the case. Let's say someone desires that there be a God, and then finds out there is indeed a God - wouldn't that be a case where desire and truth coincide?
The question, then, is this: If I do decide to conform desire to truth and become more moral, or if I decide to conform truth to desire and become less moral, will I, in either case, be infallibly successful in attaining my goal?
If I understand you, you are saying that one might will oneself to believe P, even though he wishes Q, because he is moral (or he is moral by virtue of doing this)? And alternatively, one might will oneself to believe Q, in spite of initially believing P, because he is less moral (or he is less moral by virtue of doing this)? And then you ask if people can invariably do both of these things? I have done my best, honestly, to interpret your question, but I can't make much sense of it. I can only repeat my point: I arrive at my beliefs by reflection and analysis, experience, input from others, reading, and so on. My beliefs form during this process, and may change or even reverse. To me, this is very different from willfully choosing what I want to believe.
If you are asking any other kind of question, I would not care to follow up.
I wasn't asking a question so much as making a point, which was that we cannot will ourselves to believe what we do not believe, nor to desire what we do not desire. We can only will ourselves to act how we choose to act. So, to the extent we base our actions upon our beliefs and desires, our choices are not under our volitional control. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 29, 2013
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Hi Chance,
RDFish, perhaps you’re taking belief too generally. Not being able to believe something contrary to experience does not necessarily mean that I cannot choose my beliefs, it means that I cannot choose how I experience reality. I don’t believe that the sky is blue, I experience a blue sky. I think it’s a mistake to attribute that with belief, at least in some senses of the word. (Yet if someone were to ask me if I believed in a blue sky, my usage of the language might compel an answer of yes.)
Take any belief at all - that the Earth orbits the Sun, or that dogs can't talk, or that you have two feet. I assume you have firmly-held beliefs about these propositions, and also that you could not for the life of you simply decide to believe otherwise. You likely also have strong beliefs about more abstract propositions, like perhaps "lowering taxes generally spurs economic growth" or "Earth's climate is warming due to human activity" or "Darwinian evolution fully accounts for biological complexity". You might change your mind about these things based on things you hear, or read, or even by sitting alone and ruminating about evidence on one side or another. But you can't simply make up your mind to believe the opposite of what you currently believe and then actually change your belief that way. You can simply decide to pour a glass of water, or to yell "football!", but you cannot simply decide to believe that dogs can talk. Nor can you change your desires - you experience your desires, but you don't pick them.
Analogously, I cannot flap my arms and fly. This does not mean that I don’t possess free will. It means that my being exists within certain physical confines. If I want to fly I can build an airplane. So my choices are constrained, but such constraints do not imply that I cannot freely choose.
We agree on this.
Depending on which definition of belief one uses, I think it’s clear that we do have choice in the matter.
Yes, I always say we make choices, and those choices are free (unless, for example, somebody is physically forcing us or threatening us into one particular act).
Belief 1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing 2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group 3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence We quite obviously have significant control over #1,...
I think we need to be more careful about this one. I can choose to trust Fred to pay back the loan, meaning I'll give him the loan and tell him I'm trusting him to repay it. But my estimate of the likelihood that Fred will actually pay it back - based on my knowledge and experience of Fred, etc. - is a belief that I cannot choose. These beliefs arise in our minds, but not under volitional control.
...where #3 is more constrained by experience with evidence. The evaluation of evidence is at the core of our perception and reasoning facilities. Many of our beliefs, namely the ones you use as examples, are constrained by our experience with the evidence. I cannot honestly choose to believe that the earth is flat because I know it to be round. If that were not the case, and I lacked any knowledge of the Earth’s nature outside of my direct experience with a flat patch of ground, I would be free to believe otherwise. As a matter of fact, I could believe any number of things about the nature of the planet had I not seen pictures of it from space.
Really? You could just make something up that you didn't know was true, and decide to believe it, and then you would actually believe it was true? That doesn't seem reasonable to me. Or perhaps you mean you might, based on faulty or incomplete information, arrive at a false belief. Well sure, we do that all the time. But still, if you arrived at a belief for whatever reason, you would not be able to believe its contradiction simply because you decide to. It really seems to me that it's just not possible - it's not the way our minds work.
But it’s not simply about the quantity or quality evidence either, but about how we allow the evidence to speak. (HT: Paul Nelson). I can choose to set unreasonable standards of evidence for the things I choose to believe, and demand absolute proof over a reasonable preponderance of the evidence. This is also a choice.
One is compelled by the evidence (and one's predispositions, experiences, and so on) one way or another, and one comes to believe one thing or another, and that is not under volitional control. I can't change what I believe just by deciding to change my standards of evidence. I may certainly argue that way, demanding more evidence for things I do not believe (it's pretty normal for people to do that). But that still doesn't mean I can start to believe something I don't believe simply by deciding I don't need much evidence to believe it.
So you should be clear what you mean by “belief.” If you simply mean that we have no control over what we believe about reality with regard to direct experience, I might agree. We can’t genuinely choose not to believe in gravity, or our sense of smell, or in food and water.
Well, the idea of "direct experience" is pretty dicey - all of our observations are mediated by our mental faculties... but let's not go there. Let's say we agree that we can't choose our beliefs that are obvious from our repeated and uniform experience, yes? Again, I would say that our beliefs regarding very abstract propositions, such as examples I've given here, are also outside of our volitional control
Other things, such as the preciousness of human life, we apparently are free to choose, but the considerations are often complex, and tied to other antecedent existential beliefs.
I believe that human life is precious, and I absolutely would not be able to simply choose to believe otherwise and then - poof! - I would no longer believe human life is precious! There's just no way - and I don't believe you or anyone else would be capable of changing their beliefs like that either. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 29, 2013
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RDFish, you pose some interesting questions, but I fear that you are conflating several elements in your analysis of our power to change beliefs. In all honesty, I don't think you are being precise enough with your formulation: Obviously, a person cannot believe one thing and also believe something else at the same time. That point hardly needs any emphasis. Taking it one step further, the question is not, "Can I change my belief or beliefs?" or even "Can I identify the beliefs that I would like to hold and finally attain them? You seem to understand that it is, indeed, possible to do that, assuming that we are discussing the kinds of beliefs that influence moral behavior. Ultimately, those are the only kind that matter. In fact, how we behave affects what we believe and what we believe also affects how we behave. In any significant change of belief, one either conforms truth to desire or he conforms desire to truth. The question, then, is this: If I do decide to conform desire to truth and become more moral, or if I decide to conform truth to desire and become less moral, will I, in either case, be infallibly successful in attaining my goal? If you are asking any other kind of question, I would not care to follow up.StephenB
April 29, 2013
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RDFish, perhaps you're taking belief too generally. Not being able to believe something contrary to experience does not necessarily mean that I cannot choose my beliefs, it means that I cannot choose how I experience reality. I don't believe that the sky is blue, I experience a blue sky. I think it's a mistake to attribute that with belief, at least in some senses of the word. (Yet if someone were to ask me if I believed in a blue sky, my usage of the language might compel an answer of yes.) Analogously, I cannot flap my arms and fly. This does not mean that I don't possess free will. It means that my being exists within certain physical confines. If I want to fly I can build an airplane. So my choices are constrained, but such constraints do not imply that I cannot freely choose. Depending on which definition of belief one uses, I think it's clear that we do have choice in the matter. Belief 1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing 2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group 3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence We quite obviously have significant control over #1, where #3 is more constrained by experience with evidence. The evaluation of evidence is at the core of our perception and reasoning facilities. Many of our beliefs, namely the ones you use as examples, are constrained by our experience with the evidence. I cannot honestly choose to believe that the earth is flat because I know it to be round. If that were not the case, and I lacked any knowledge of the Earth's nature outside of my direct experience with a flat patch of ground, I would be free to believe otherwise. As a matter of fact, I could believe any number of things about the nature of the planet had I not seen pictures of it from space. But it's not simply about the quantity or quality evidence either, but about how we allow the evidence to speak. (HT: Paul Nelson). I can choose to set unreasonable standards of evidence for the things I choose to believe, and demand absolute proof over a reasonable preponderance of the evidence. This is also a choice. So you should be clear what you mean by "belief." If you simply mean that we have no control over what we believe about reality with regard to direct experience, I might agree. We can't genuinely choose not to believe in gravity, or our sense of smell, or in food and water. Other things, such as the preciousness of human life, we apparently are free to choose, but the considerations are often complex, and tied to other antecedent existential beliefs.Chance Ratcliff
April 29, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
If you cannot change your beliefs and we cannot change ours,...
When you do read the rest of the thread, you'll see I've said repeatedly that our beliefs change all the time, and that we can change our own beliefs by means of reading, talking, reflection, analysis, and so on. What we cannot do is choose our beliefs by act of will: We cannot believe something we don't believe, or choose to disbelieve something we believe.
... then what is your purpose in discussing your beliefs?
I like to discuss these things - I enjoy it. Talking with me might change someone's mind about something, sure, but that's not my motivation. Likewise, someone else's arguments may cause me to change my mind about something too, which I actually enjoy quite a bit.
We all believe what we believe because we cannot believe otherwise, right?
No, I don't think that at all. Of course we might have come to believe otherwise - any one of a virtually infinite number of factors might cause my (or your) beliefs to change at any time! My point is that our beliefs are not under our voluntary control the way our voluntary actions are. I can choose to sit on the couch, but I cannot choose to believe in unicorns, and there is nothing I can do about that.
Of course, that says very little about what might actually be true, and all of our discussions are from the perspective that something might actually be true and that it is important for our beliefs to align with such.
Agreed. Epistemology is hard. Still, I think if you just take some time to introspect, you'll find you cannot actually change what you believe or what you desire simply by an act of will. And that means that if you are to act rationally - meaning if you act in accord with your beliefs and desires - then you will act in accordance with beliefs and desires that you did not choose. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 29, 2013
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Hi Chance,
Mess with either of those beliefs, and it would be possible for me to choose to believe that either of those generally accepted facts are disputable.
Yes, each belief depends on others, and we might revise many beliefs when a more fundamental belief is brought to doubt. If I found my wife lied to me about being with the mailman, I might then come to believe she never loved me in first place. I wouldn't choose to think that, but there you go.
As I suggested earlier, I think that the ontology of belief is ultimately seated in human free will. Since you suggest otherwise, what do you see as the cause of belief, and what imposes our beliefs upon us irrespective of our will? I think it would be more illuminating to understand how you source belief.
Hold on, let me check... nope, I actually don't hold any beliefs about that, although I try to. Seriously, I don't know what to believe regarding mind/body ontology or free will. In other words, nothing I've come across has led me to believe (a telling idiom!) that consciousness is either causal or percpetual, or that our minds are or are not algorithmic or contra-causal. So I won't argue the truth of dualism or physicalism or libertarianism. Up one level from the metaphysics, however, I do think we can come to understand some of this by introspection. And to me, introspection reveals that I can choose my actions but not my beliefs and desires. So to answer your question, I guess all I can say is that our beliefs result from a huge number of things - including our vast experience (which is partially determined by our previous choices!) and our innate and ideosyncratic cognitive faculties.
For instance, if I chose to believe that materialism is true, and that nothing is objectively real or ascertainable which is not the product of material interactions, then I am not subsequently entitled to believe in immaterial truths, assuming I understand the logical connection. This does not mean that I cannot choose to believe in immaterial truths, it just means that I must modify my commitment to materialism, my belief quotient, in order to accept certain truths.
I take your meaning, I think, but I'd say "entitlement" isn't really a helpful concept here. We needn't be entitled to believe one thing or another - we simply do have beliefs, entitled or not. Likewise, one needn't modify their commitment to one view in order to believe something contradictory - it's pretty clear that many people hold contradictory beliefs routinely. But yes, again, each belief depends on others.
So many if not most of our beliefs flow from other upstream ones, and at some point we arrive at those which can be affected by our will, such as our belief that our perceptions of reality are generally reliable. Other beliefs follow rather necessarily.
Regarding reliability of our minds: I don't think we can know if our perceptions and cognition is generally reliable, since if it wasn't we wouldn't necessarily know it. So it's not that I believe one way or the other about that; it's just that there's nothing I can do about it, and nothing to discover, and so I don't think about it. Still, I have other beliefs that are very strong - even though logically they oughtn't be if I can't demonstrate the fundamental reliability of my mind. So even though I understand that, and I don't feel strongly convinced that my perceptions of reality are somehow demonstrably true, I have strong beliefs about all sorts of other things! I guess one thing that implies is that we are not logic machines :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 29, 2013
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RDFish: Briefly, because I haven't read the whole thread yet... If you cannot change your beliefs and we cannot change ours, then what is your purpose in discussing your beliefs? We all believe what we believe because we cannot believe otherwise, right? Of course, that says very little about what might actually be true, and all of our discussions are from the perspective that something might actually be true and that it is important for our beliefs to align with such.Phinehas
April 29, 2013
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Footnote to #28, I think that certain beliefs constrain others, and so it's possible that those which are consequent to antecedent beliefs are constrained. This throws the issue back to the antecedent beliefs. Taken somewhat differently, some beliefs have a sort of "dominion" over others. For instance, if I chose to believe that materialism is true, and that nothing is objectively real or ascertainable which is not the product of material interactions, then I am not subsequently entitled to believe in immaterial truths, assuming I understand the logical connection. This does not mean that I cannot choose to believe in immaterial truths, it just means that I must modify my commitment to materialism, my belief quotient, in order to accept certain truths. So many if not most of our beliefs flow from other upstream ones, and at some point we arrive at those which can be affected by our will, such as our belief that our perceptions of reality are generally reliable. Other beliefs follow rather necessarily.Chance Ratcliff
April 29, 2013
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RDFish, thanks for the thoughtful reply.
"Can you, like William here, choose to believe that Rome is the capital of Paris, and then – poof! – you think it is true?"
Taking this point specifically, no I don't think I could convince myself of such a thing instantaneously. But my belief that Rome is the capital of Italy, and that Paris is the capital of France, depend on other beliefs, such as the general reliability of the geographical testimony of others, as I've never been to Italy or France. It also depends on my belief that my apprehension of objective facts is generally reliable and consistent. Mess with either of those beliefs, and it would be possible for me to choose to believe that either of those generally accepted facts are disputable. Let me come at it another way. As I suggested earlier, I think that the ontology of belief is ultimately seated in human free will. Since you suggest otherwise, what do you see as the cause of belief, and what imposes our beliefs upon us irrespective of our will? I think it would be more illuminating to understand how you source belief.Chance Ratcliff
April 29, 2013
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Hi William,
Doesn’t he believe that for the same reason you believe the opposite – he must believe it?
I don't think I understand your question. I'm not saying that we "must" believe what we believe - it could very well have happened that we ended up with different beliefs, depending on a virtually infinite number of factors. What I'm saying is that we can't simply decide what we want to believe, and then actually believe it.
And whether or not that belief is true, it is what you must believe, because you cannot choose what you believe … correct?
Again, I think there's some confusion when you say people must believe whatever it is they currently believe. No, people change their minds about things all the time, as I've said many times now: We reflect and analyze our beliefs, listen to others, read books, have experiences, and so on - all these things result in new and changed beliefs all the time. What we cannot do is simply choose to believe something, and as a result actually believe it is true.
I can believe whatever I wish because it doesn’t matter to me if what I believe is actually true or not. What matters to me is that my beliefs produce what I want them to produce in my life. That they are true beliefs is entirely irrelevant to me.
Ah, ok. I think I understand you better now, thanks. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 29, 2013
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Hi vjtorley,
RDF: If, for example, I desire to rob a bank but choose not to because it was immoral, this would mean my desire to be moral is stronger than my desire to steal money… VJT: Here I would have to respectfully disagree with your account of choice: it’s framed in Hobbesian terms from the start. The problem is that Hobbes doesn’t provide an objective yardstick for measuring the strength of a desire, so his account is circular: the strongest desire is just the one that wins.
If I wanted to explain why I chose not to rob the bank, I might say that my desire to be moral was stronger than my desire for the money. You object, complaining that I cannot objectively demonstrate the truth of this explanation because I have no independent yardstick for measuring my desires. Well, sure - I am reporting my subjective experience of my desires, and making sense of my actions according to them. There is no circularity involved. I certainly don't see how libertarianism provides any more objective method to assess our motivations!
RDF: …[I]f we act rationally, we are compelled to act in accord with beliefs and desires that we do not choose. VJT: I would have to disagree. Often in life, we are faced with a choice between a multitude of competing goods, each of which is desirable in its own right. Consider the young Leonardo da Vinci. He was faced with a number of career choices, all appealing to different desires he had. Why should be assume that one of these desires was stronger than the rest? That’s a gratuitous assumption. It would have been perfectly rational for Leonardo to (a) devote his life entirely to science; (b) devote himself entirely to medicine; (c) devote his life entirely to art; or (d) dabble in all three. None of these choices would have been a wrong choice.
I don't believe we are in disagreement here. I've made clear a few times here that we have conflicting and competing desires, and I have not said anything about choices like these necessarily having a normative dimension. We agree that faced with multiple desires, we must choose among them (we have no choice but to choose, of course!). If we seek to explain why we choose one course of action instead of some other, we might answer in various ways: 1) We could say we choose for no reason at all (i.e. we made an irrational choice) 2) We could say that we choose according to our strongest desire (this is what it seems like to me) 3) We could say that we choose using our libertarian free will (this is what I think you are saying) But how is #3 any sort of answer at all? It's fine that you claim to have this volitional power that transcends physical cause... but did you make your decision for some reason or not? If not, then your decision was irrational. If so, what reason could it have been if it was not entailed by your beliefs and desires?
RDF: There is no way I could choose to believe that Rome is the capital of France, because I happen to already know that it isn’t true. VJT: OK, but let’s consider your choice to believe in some religion (e.g. Christianity). Choice really does come into it here, because all reason can establish is whether a religion is worthy of belief (i.e. credible), and not whether it is true.
Fine example! I could not possibly believe in a religion that I didn't believe in. I don't want to insult anybody's religion, but surely you can think of one that you find quite unbelievable. I ask you: Can you, by sheer power of will, start believing the fact claims of that religion? I'm certain I could not, even on pain of death, believe some of the things that some people say.
Or let’s take a more everyday example: consider Othello’s decision to believe the rumors he heard about Desdemona, in Shakespeare’s play. Once again, there was an element of choice about the belief: whom do you trust?
Once again: We reflect, analyze, talk to other people, and figure out what it is we believe. We do not choose what it is we believe. It is very different, in what I think is a very obvious way! If you decided to trust that Karl Marx really was right about political theory, could you? I'm guessing you could not (I'm going out on a limb here, but I feel pretty confident :-)).
As for desires, it may not be possible to alter them in the short term, but we can certainly cultivate them in the long term. A man who does not like to pray can cultivate habits that he knows will eventually awaken in him the desire to pray.
Yes we agree about this!
A more controversial example: a gay person can choose to undergo therapy with the aim of altering his desires.
As a heterosexual man, it does not feel like a choice that I am not sexually attracted to other men - it feels utterly involuntary. Do you feel you could voluntarily change your sexual orientation, or that it could be changed in therapy? Could you change absolutely everything by submitting to therapy - for example, could you be changed in such a way that you would want to torture babies? Interesting questions, I think - I'm really not sure about the facts here.
RDF: It’s very clear to me that we cannot choose to believe something we do not believe, and we cannot choose to desire something we do not desire, nor choose not to desire something we do desire. VJT: To the extent that this is true, it’s trivial: we cannot choose to believe NOW what we do not currently believe. However, we can choose to try to believe in the future what we do not currently believe: “Lord… help thou mine unbelief!”
Like I said, we agree that choices we make can certainly influence our future frame of mind, our outlook, and yes, our beliefs. But this is not what we mean by volitional choice. If I want to believe in Scientology (just to pick a religion I do not currently believe in) I could start reading books by L. Ron Hubbard, going to Scientology meetings, and so on. Will that eventually make me believe in Scientology? I really don't know (but I doubt it). The point is, we can take actions that might influence our future thoughts in all sorts of ways, but that is completely different from choosing our beliefs. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 29, 2013
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We’ll have to disagree about this, because there is no way I can understand why you think that!
Doesn't he believe that for the same reason you believe the opposite - he must believe it? You frame your question as if he has a choice about what he believes about how we come to beliefs.
These are real, true facts about me that I can’t change, and it doesn’t matter if physicalism or dualism or any other -ism is true or not!
And whether or not that belief is true, it is what you must believe, because you cannot choose what you believe ... correct? As far as how one can choose their beliefs: IF one holds all knowledge to be not just prone to error, but likely erroneous due to the imperfect nature of senses in gathering data and mind in interpreting it; IF one holds all beliefs as conditional views that are likely not any more valid than any other belief held by countless humans since the dawn of time; IF one holds no belief or knowledge as certain or even likely to be actually true; THEN one has a contextual philosophy that renders "knowledge" and "belief" into disposable tools that can be used towards any purpose one chooses, adopted and discarded as they prove to be suited or not suited for any task at hand. I can believe whatever I wish because it doesn't matter to me if what I believe is actually true or not. What matters to me is that my beliefs produce what I want them to produce in my life. That they are true beliefs is entirely irrelevant to me.William J Murray
April 29, 2013
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Hi Chance,
The individual will has strong influence over beliefs. A person can essentially brainwash themselves into believing almost anything. One may not be able to instantaneously change a belief, but one can choose to adopt a context — a worldview — which will dramatically alter how they view other things.
I think we're pretty much in agreement here. Here's the way I put it a few posts ago: You can choose to reflect on your beliefs, or seek different perspectives from other people or books and so on, and these choices may lead you to believe new things of course. We make all sorts of choices that affect our lives, and these may affect our future beliefs. Still, we do not choose our beliefs in the way we choose our actions. If somebody asks me if I will rob a bank I can choose to do it or not. If somebody asks me if I will believe the Earth is flat, I have no choice in the matter - I do not believe this, and I am powerless to change that. I could set out on a course that may or may not change this belief in the future, but I can't predict how it will turn out: I could join a silly cult, do some mind-altering drugs, and watch cartoons until I actually believed the Earth was flat... but even that might not work.
One person believes that life begins at conception, and that ending a pregnancy intentionally is an act of murder; another believes that a zygote is nothing more than tissue, and that pregnancies can be terminated without moral consequences.
Right - even theists disagree about these issues! That's why I say theism doesn't help to make moral propositions any more objective.
It may be difficult to imagine choosing to believe or reject certain specific things, but beliefs are largely, if not exclusively, the result of the exercise of our will.
We'll have to disagree about this, because there is no way I can understand why you think that! Can you, like William here, choose to believe that Rome is the capital of Paris, and then - poof! - you think it is true? I don't think that is what you mean, but still your saying our beliefs are largely or exclusively the result of our will is just baffling!
I have a hard time imagining another ontological context for beliefs besides choices, unless I adopt the view that I am nothing more than matter in motion, in which case all my beliefs and actions have prior physical causes, and I have no real choice about anything of consequence.
This is another viewpoint I have a hard time understanding. First, physical causes certainly are not simply "matter in motion" - that would be a view from a couple of hundred years ago I guess, but I don't think anyone believes that any more. But no matter what our understanding of physics, ontology - the whole nature of reality at a fundamental level - turns out to be, I don't see how that affects what we are able to choose. I can choose to read a book, but I can't choose whether or not I like doughnuts, and I can't choose whether or not I believe in the tooth fairy. These are real, true facts about me that I can't change, and it doesn't matter if physicalism or dualism or any other -ism is true or not! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 29, 2013
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RDFish, Thank you for your comments. You write:
If, for example, I desire to rob a bank but choose not to because it was immoral, this would mean my desire to be moral is stronger than my desire to steal money...
Here I would have to respectfully disagree with your account of choice: it's framed in Hobbesian terms from the start. The problem is that Hobbes doesn't provide an objective yardstick for measuring the strength of a desire, so his account is circular: the strongest desire is just the one that wins. You also write:
...[I]f we act rationally, we are compelled to act in accord with beliefs and desires that we do not choose.
I would have to disagree. Often in life, we are faced with a choice between a multitude of competing goods, each of which is desirable in its own right. Consider the young Leonardo da Vinci. He was faced with a number of career choices, all appealing to different desires he had. Why should be assume that one of these desires was stronger than the rest? That's a gratuitous assumption. It would have been perfectly rational for Leonardo to (a) devote his life entirely to science; (b) devote himself entirely to medicine; (c) devote his life entirely to art; or (d) dabble in all three. None of these choices would have been a wrong choice. You add:
There is no way I could choose to believe that Rome is the capital of France, because I happen to already know that it isn't true.
OK, but let's consider your choice to believe in some religion (e.g. Christianity). Choice really does come into it here, because all reason can establish is whether a religion is worthy of belief (i.e. credible), and not whether it is true. Or let's take a more everyday example: consider Othello's decision to believe the rumors he heard about Desdemona, in Shakespeare's play. Once again, there was an element of choice about the belief: whom do you trust? As for desires, it may not be possible to alter them in the short term, but we can certainly cultivate them in the long term. A man who does not like to pray can cultivate habits that he knows will eventually awaken in him the desire to pray. A more controversial example: a gay person can choose to undergo therapy with the aim of altering his desires. Finally you write:
It's very clear to me that we cannot choose to believe something we do not believe, and we cannot choose to desire something we do not desire, nor choose not to desire something we do desire.
To the extent that this is true, it's trivial: we cannot choose to believe NOW what we do not currently believe. However, we can choose to try to believe in the future what we do not currently believe: "Lord... help thou mine unbelief!" Hope that helps.vjtorley
April 29, 2013
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vjtorley,
"For those readers who may have been wondering what I’ve been doing for the past month or so, I should explain that I’ve been working on a reply to a recent online essay on humans and animals, that’s somehow turned into a 30-chapter book! My apologies for the long delay. My book should be ready in a week or two."
Congratulations. Your writing is prolific, so I'm not surprised to hear that you're actually writing a book, and I would hazard to bet that it won't be your last. ;)Chance Ratcliff
April 29, 2013
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There is no way I could choose to believe that Rome is the capital of France, because I happen to already know that it isn’t true.
I take you at your word.
It’s pretty scary to me, actually, to imagine that somebody could simply choose to believe something they know is an outlandish lie, and then – poof! – they actually start thinking it is true.
That's not necessarily the context that frames everyones conceptualizations of what "knowledge" and "belief" are. I have no certainty about anything, and all my beliefs are conditional, so that makes it much easier to believe whatever I wish.
Most people I talk to feel like I do: They realize that beliefs are not volitional at all. You can choose to reflect on your beliefs, or seek different perspectives from other people or books and so on, and these choices may lead you to believe new things of course. But to simply decide to believe something – even a ridiculous lie such as that Rome is the capital of France – and then immediately begin to actually believe it just seems, well, very irrational!
I agree that many, or perhaps most, people believe what they must, which means - to me - that they do not have free will. Free will is indeed a scary responsibility. I can believe whatever outlandish irrational nonsense I wish.
But in case you’re serious, I really disagree with you about this: I think people have the freedom to choose whatever they want (unless they are coerced somehow). And I believe the blame, praise, and responsibility for each person’s actions are due to that person. I think I’ve made that pretty clear!
Are "desire" and "want" different? Because you said that people cannot choose their desires, but can choose what they want. That looks a little self contradictory.William J Murray
April 29, 2013
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Hi everyone. Bornagain77, Thank you very much for the links relating to free will, and to Haeckel's highly misleading embryo drawings. They are much appreciated. Bevets, Thanks for the quotes from Ruse and Dawkins. They certainly make valuable apologetic ammunition! Kairosfocus, I'll try and get the book out by the end of this year. I have a few important posts I'd like to get out first, though. Robert Byers, I'd have to agree with your assessment. One of the reasons why Stapel lasted so long was that he knew precisely how to pander to people's prejudices and confirm their biases. Barry Arrington, Thank you for your kind words. It is rather shocking that Professor Coyne's sole reason for rejecting a society engaging in barbaric practices is: "I wouldn't want to live in it." To be fair, he did add that he thought social "well-being" was objectively measurable, "in principle." But then he spoilt his case by saying that the belief that the society with the greatest well-being was best was a subjective opinion.vjtorley
April 29, 2013
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RDFish,
"Again, I really can’t understand how people think they can choose their beliefs."
The individual will has strong influence over beliefs. A person can essentially brainwash themselves into believing almost anything. One may not be able to instantaneously change a belief, but one can choose to adopt a context -- a worldview -- which will dramatically alter how they view other things. One person believes that life begins at conception, and that ending a pregnancy intentionally is an act of murder; another believes that a zygote is nothing more than tissue, and that pregnancies can be terminated without moral consequences. These beliefs are not imposed upon us, we adopt them consciously. It might be argued that these types of beliefs are consequential to others, such as theism, but at the end of the day our beliefs are still choices. It may be difficult to imagine choosing to believe or reject certain specific things, but beliefs are largely, if not exclusively, the result of the exercise of our will. I have a hard time imagining another ontological context for beliefs besides choices, unless I adopt the view that I am nothing more than matter in motion, in which case all my beliefs and actions have prior physical causes, and I have no real choice about anything of consequence.Chance Ratcliff
April 29, 2013
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Hi JDH,
I want to make it very clear in this response that I am not accusing RDFish of anything at all. Its just that having spent years counseling people about sin, you get to hear the same excuses all the time. Many apologies to you RDFish, but this seems like justification for some behavior rather than search for truth. I certainly don’t know you and am not making any accusation, it’s just this is exactly what an addict would say on the way to giving in once more to his addiction.
Well, no offense to you either JDH, but it certainly isn't my intent to say that people are not responsible for their actions, and I'm not sure how you could have mistaken my position like that. Perhaps I haven't been very clear. Just because I think our justice system should be designed to minimize recidivism rather than satisfy our desire for vengeance doesn't mean I think criminals shouldn't be held accountable for their behavior! On the contrary, I feel each person is fully responsible for everything they do - even if they say they have a disease, addiction, had bad parenting, or whatever other excuse they may offer. Hopefully that is clear. I do, however, believe that some of these things can be taken into account when society tries to figure out what to do with convicted criminals. If a long-term law-abiding citizen all of a sudden had a brain tumor and suffered seizures and violent outbursts and punched somebody in the nose, I wouldn't say we should treat them the same way as a hardened criminal who went around punching people all the time just because they felt like it. Still, both people should be held responsible for their actions.
The real choice is not can we choose to desire, the choice is can we choose to be set free from our desire.
These are all choices, I think. I always try to ignore some desire if I feel it is wrong, because I very much desire to do what is right!
I am sorry for bringing religion into it, but in a way I have to agree with RDFish. Man left to himself is cursed to continue in his desires. However, according to the Words of Christ as set down by John, Christians are no longer bound by that if we choose to believe.
Again, I really can't understand how people think they can choose their beliefs. I figure out what I believe through introspection and analysis and reflection, not by just deciding to believe whatever I want to believe! And neither do I choose what I desire. Some of my desires I think are negative (I desire to eat doughnuts) and some are positive (I desire to help children in need). But if I'm honest, I can't say that I am capable of choosing not to desire doughnuts even though I choose not to eat them. Nor could I choose to simply not care about children in need and ignore my desire to help them - I could only choose not to act on that desire for some reason (or, irrationally, for no reason at all). Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 29, 2013
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"I think people have the freedom to choose whatever they want (unless they are coerced somehow)."
My nitpick would be that coercion limits choices, it doesn't eliminate them. Anytime one is tempted to think that they "have no choice" about something, I believe it's generally the case that they DO have a choice, but the difference in alternatives favors one outcome over another.Chance Ratcliff
April 29, 2013
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One more thing, William:
That you cannot do such a thing is probably because you don’t have free will, and that’s certainly not your fault.
I think you're being sarcastic here (no offense, but I always think sarcasm is the last resort for people out of arguments). But in case you're serious, I really disagree with you about this: I think people have the freedom to choose whatever they want (unless they are coerced somehow). And I believe the blame, praise, and responsibility for each person's actions are due to that person. I think I've made that pretty clear! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 29, 2013
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It’s very clear to me that we cannot choose to believe something we do not believe, and we cannot choose to desire something we do not desire, nor choose not to desire something we do desire. Try it and see!
I want to make it very clear in this response that I am not accusing RDFish of anything at all. Its just that having spent years counseling people about sin, you get to hear the same excuses all the time. Many apologies to you RDFish, but this seems like justification for some behavior rather than search for truth. I certainly don't know you and am not making any accusation, it's just this is exactly what an addict would say on the way to giving in once more to his addiction. The real choice is not can we choose to desire, the choice is can we choose to be set free from our desire. I am sorry for bringing religion into it, but in a way I have to agree with RDFish. Man left to himself is cursed to continue in his desires. However, according to the Words of Christ as set down by John, Christians are no longer bound by that if we choose to believe. "If the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed." John 8:36. I know ID is supposed to be Designer agnostic, but occasionally I think it does help to get commentary directly from the Word.JDH
April 29, 2013
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Hi William, There is no way I could choose to believe that Rome is the capital of France, because I happen to already know that it isn't true. It's pretty scary to me, actually, to imagine that somebody could simply choose to believe something they know is an outlandish lie, and then - poof! - they actually start thinking it is true. Most people I talk to feel like I do: They realize that beliefs are not volitional at all. You can choose to reflect on your beliefs, or seek different perspectives from other people or books and so on, and these choices may lead you to believe new things of course. But to simply decide to believe something - even a ridiculous lie such as that Rome is the capital of France - and then immediately begin to actually believe it just seems, well, very irrational! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 29, 2013
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Can you believe that Rome is the capital of France?
Yes, I can. I can believe whatever I wish.William J Murray
April 29, 2013
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It’s very clear to me that we cannot choose to believe something we do not believe, and we cannot choose to desire something we do not desire, nor choose not to desire something we do desire. Try it and see!
I have. I've succeeded. You're wrong. But, don't worry. That you cannot do such a thing is probably because you don't have free will, and that's certainly not your fault.William J Murray
April 29, 2013
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Hi William,
RDF: Finally, can anyone explain how libertarian free will is consistent with rationality? If we are rational, then our actions are based on our beliefs and desires. WJM: “Based on” is not the same as “determined by”. We have the capacity to make both rational and irrational choices with regards to our beliefs and desires.
Yes, I didn't deny we have the capacity to act irrationally! My point is that if we act rationally, we are compelled to act in accord with beliefs and desires that we do not choose.
RDF: But I think it is clear that we do not choose our beliefs or our desires, but rather we choose how to act. WJM: That’s not clear to me. Why can we not choose our beliefs, or sort through competing, conflicting desires?
It's very clear to me that we cannot choose to believe something we do not believe, and we cannot choose to desire something we do not desire, nor choose not to desire something we do desire. Try it and see! But yes, we definitely sort through competing, conflicting desires, and choose the ones we act on. Those choices, of course, are either rational or not!
RDF: The libertarian holds that this choice is free, but that would mean our choices do not follow from our beliefs and desires – i.e. we would be irrational. If we are rational, we are compelled by beliefs and desires we do not choose. WJM: This makes no sense. Having free will doesn’t mean that our choices “do not follow”, only that they do not have to follow. We can make both the rational choice, or an irrational choice.
I'd say it makes perfect sense - I've already said several times that we are capable of acting irrationally! However, if we are to be rational, we are compelled to act in accord with beliefs and desires that we do not choose.
Beliefs and desires are not limited to the rational. If we are compelled by belief and desire, then while our choices would be computable from those beliefs and desires, they need not be rational, because those beliefs and desires may not only be irrational, they could be largely self-conflicting.
I don't know if our choices are "computable" or not. I don't think it's meaningful to say that beliefs and desires are rational or irrational; only decisions and actions can be rational or irrational.
If one’s choices are only computations of beliefs and desires they did not choose, then one is simply a thing being moved around by unchosen beliefs and desires, whether that motion can be described as rational or not.
I wouldn't say we're "things" - we're people! And sometimes we're not rational for sure. But when we are rational, we are constrained to act in accord with beliefs and desires that are not under our conscious control.
Without free will and the capacity to alter beliefs and desires and make choices that supervene their computation, there can be no moral responsibility, only physical causation.
First, we really can't choose to believe or desire at will. Again - give it a try. Can you believe that Rome is the capital of France? Can you desire to see puppies tortured? I sure can't. Next, I don't think we should talk about "computation" - that brings up a whole other topic (is thought algorithmic?). Next, do you really mean to say that our choices "supervene their computation" - don't you mean something like "transcend their computation"? And finally, why would you say we have no moral responsibility? Of course we are responsible for our actions - who else is responsible for what I do??
Humans would be no more guilty of “murder” than a falling tree branch that happens to hit someone.
I certainly don't understand this way of thinking! People choose their actions, and trees don't! People can be affected by punishment, and trees aren't! And so on. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
April 29, 2013
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Excellent Dr. Torley. On Coyne’s view there is no such thing as justice. There is only power relationships between those who are weak and those who are strong. If a man has power there are no objective criteria deterring him from using it in any way that suits his fancy. What if it suits his fancy to start a Rwandian style genocidal rampage? Genocide might not suit Coyne’s “moral taste” but he cannot consistently say it is objectively wrong. Consistently he can only say things like “I do not prefer the taste of liver and onions, and I also find that genocide does not suit my personal moral tastes.” A man who cannot justify his opposition to genocide on any basis other than he finds it distasteful should not be taken seriously. Let’s say a couple of brothers decided to blow up a bomb at the crowded finish line of a popular marathon. Can Coyne say the brothers “should not” have done that when according to his views they could not not do that?Barry Arrington
April 29, 2013
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Finally, can anyone explain how libertarian free will is consistent with rationality? If we are rational, then our actions are based on our beliefs and desires.
"Based on" is not the same as "determined by". We have the capacity to make both rational and irrational choices with regards to our beliefs and desires.
But I think it is clear that we do not choose our beliefs or our desires, but rather we choose how to act.
That's not clear to me. Why can we not choose our beliefs, or sort through competing, conflicting desires?
The libertarian holds that this choice is free, but that would mean our choices do not follow from our beliefs and desires – i.e. we would be irrational. If we are rational, we are compelled by beliefs and desires we do not choose.
This makes no sense. Having free will doesn't mean that our choices "do not follow", only that they do not have to follow. We can make both the rational choice, or an irrational choice. Beliefs and desires are not limited to the rational. If we are compelled by belief and desire, then while our choices would be computable from those beliefs and desires, they need not be rational, because those beliefs and desires may not only be irrational, they could be largely self-conflicting. If one's choices are only computations of beliefs and desires they did not choose, then one is simply a thing being moved around by unchosen beliefs and desires, whether that motion can be described as rational or not. Without free will and the capacity to alter beliefs and desires and make choices that supervene their computation, there can be no moral responsibility, only physical causation. Humans would be no more guilty of "murder" than a falling tree branch that happens to hit someone.William J Murray
April 29, 2013
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corrected links: Haeckel's embryos - drawings http://i32.tinypic.com/15bo6d.jpg Actual Embryos - photos (Early compared to Intermediate and Late stages) http://www.ichthus.info/Evolution/PICS/Richardson-embryos.jpgbornagain77
April 29, 2013
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