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Is free will dead?

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Professor Jerry Coyne has written an op-ed piece for USA Today entitled, Why you don’t really have free will. The kind of free will that Professor Coyne is concerned with is the kind that ordinary people believe in: “If you were put in the same position twice — if the tape of your life could be rewound to the exact moment when you made a decision, with every circumstance leading up to that moment the same and all the molecules in the universe aligned in the same way — you could have chosen differently.” Coyne is adamant that any lesser kind of freedom is not worth having:

As Sam Harris noted in his book Free Will, all the attempts to harmonize the determinism of physics with a freedom of choice boil down to the claim that “a puppet is free so long as he loves his strings.”

In other words, Coyne is an incompatibilist: he thinks that determinism is incompatible with the existence of free will. Here I agree with him, for reasons which I have discussed in a previous post. Professor Coyne’s contra-causal definition of free will also sounds fairly sensible to me: if freedom means anything at all, it surely means that we could have done otherwise than what we did, when we made our choices.

Unlike Professor Coyne, I firmly believe in free will – and by that, I mean the libertarian variety. In this post, I intend to argue that the scientific arguments which Coyne marshals against free will are deficient. I will also contend that in order for the proper scientific investigation of free will to proceed, the issue of free will needs to be divorced from the philosophical question of whether our voluntary acts are performed by an immaterial soul or by the brain. A materialist can consistently believe in libertarian free will, as did President Thomas Jefferson, who conceived of thought as an action of matter. In this post, I’ll endeavor to explain how free will might work, and I’ll advance a tentative account which is compatible with (but does not require) materialism.

I would like to state for the record that I am not a materialist, for reasons that I’ve explained here. However, my arguments against materialism are based not on the nature of the will as such, but on the actions of the human intellect: they purport to show that it is impossible in principle for the operations of the intellect to be explained in a materialistic way. If these arguments turn out to be invalid, then one could still consistently hold that free will resides in the brain, and not in an immaterial soul.

Does physics rule out free will?

Without further ado, let’s have a look at Professor Coyne’s arguments against free will. Surprisingly, there are only two. One argument is based on the laws of physics:

The first is simple: we are biological creatures, collections of molecules that must obey the laws of physics. All the success of science rests on the regularity of those laws, which determine the behavior of every molecule in the universe. Those molecules, of course, also make up your brain – the organ that does the “choosing.”

What Coyne is arguing here is that modern science presupposes determinism, which is incompatible with libertarian free will. But one can believe in the reality of laws of physics without believing that they determine the behavior of particles. Laws may merely constrain particles’ behavior, which is another matter entirely.

I also find it strange that proponents of determinism, when they put forward this argument, seldom tell us exactly which laws of physics imply the truth of determinism. The law of the conservation of mass-energy certainly doesn’t; and neither does the law of the conservation of momentum. Newtonian mechanics is popularly believed to imply determinism, but this belief was exploded over two decades ago by John Earman (A Primer on Determinism, 1986, Dordrecht: Reidel, chapter III). In 2006, Dr. John Norton put forward a simple illustration which is designed to show that violations of determinism can arise very easily in a system governed by Newtonian physics (The Dome: An Unexpectedly Simple Failure of Determinism. 2006 Philosophy of Science Association 20th Biennial Meeting (Vancouver), PSA 2006 Symposia.) In Norton’s example, a mass sits on a dome in a gravitational field. After remaining unchanged for an arbitrary time, it spontaneously moves in an arbitrary direction. The mass’s indeterministic motion is clearly incompatible with Newtonian mechanics. Norton describes his example as an exceptional case of indeterminism arising in a Newtonian system with a finite number of degrees of freedom. (On the other hand, indeterminism is generic for Newtonian systems with infinitely many degrees of freedom.)

Sometimes the Principle of Least Action is said to imply determinism. But since the wording of the principle shows that it only applies to systems in which total mechanical energy (kinetic energy plus potential energy) is conserved, and as it deals with the trajectory of particles in motion, I fail to see how it would apply to collisions between particles, in which mechanical energy is not necessarily conserved. At best, it seems that the universe is fully deterministic only if particles behave like perfectly elastic billiard balls – which is only true in an artificially simplified version of the cosmos. Perhaps I’m wrong here – but if I am, then I think it’s about time the proponents of determinism made their case more clearly, instead of resorting to vague appeals to “science.”

Does quantum indeterminacy have any implications for free will?

I haven’t even mentioned quantum indeterminacy so far. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle has been interpreted by many scientists as implying that determinism does not hold at the sub-microscopic level (although I should mention that there are perfectly consistent deterministic interpretations of quantum mechanics). In recent decades, a number of philosophers and scientists have suggested that the workings of the human brain may not be deterministic either, leaving the door open to some kind of freedom. However, the reaction to this proposal from most scientists has been negative: the physicist Max Planck argued that if it were true, then “the logical result would be to reduce the human will to an organ which would be subject to the sway of mere blind chance” – and hence, not free.

But Planck’s response is flawed on two counts. First, all it shows is that quantum indeterminacy is not a sufficient condition for human freedom. The question we are addressing here, however, is whether it could be a necessary condition.

Second, Planck’s response implicitly assumes that a non-deterministic system is “subject to the sway of mere blind chance” – and nothing else. However, it is easy to show that a non-deterministic system may be subject to specific constraints, while still remaining random. These constraints may be imposed externally, or alternatively, they may be imposed from above, as in top-down causation. To see how this might work, suppose that my brain performs the high-level act of making a choice, and that this act imposes a constraint on the quantum micro-states of tiny particles in my brain. This doesn’t violate quantum randomness, because a selection can be non-random at the macro level, but random at the micro level. The following two rows of digits will serve to illustrate my point.

1 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1
0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1

The above two rows of digits were created by a random number generator. The digits in some of these columns add up to 0; some add up to 1; and some add up to 2.

Now suppose that I impose the non-random macro requirement: keep the columns whose sum equals 1, and discard the rest. I now have:

1 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0

Each row is still random (at the micro level), but I have now imposed a non-random macro-level constraint on the system as a whole (at the macro level). That, I would suggest, what happens when I make a choice.

Top-down causation and free will

What I am proposing, in brief, is that top-down (macro–>micro) causation is real and fundamental (i.e. irreducible to lower-level acts). For if causation is always bottom-up (micro–>macro) and never top-down, or alternatively, if top-down causation is real, but only happens because it has already been determined by some preceding occurrence of bottom-up causation, then our actions are simply the product of our body chemistry – in which case they are not free, since they are determined by external circumstances which lie beyond our control. But if top-down causation is real and fundamental, then a person’s free choices, which are macroscopic events that occur in the brain at the highest level, can constrain events in the brain occurring at a lower, sub-microscopic level, and these constraints then can give rise to neuro-muscular movements, which occur in accordance with that person’s will. (For instance, in the case I discussed above, relating to rows of ones and zeroes, the requirement that the columns must add up to 1 might result in to the neuro-muscular act of raising my left arm, while the requirement that they add up to 2 might result in to the act of raising my right arm.)

Thus we can mount a good defense of human freedom by hypothesizing that human choices (which are holistic acts that are properly ascribed to persons) are capable of influencing lower-level events in the human body, such as activities taking place in nerve cells when they process incoming signals. Additionally, we may hypothesize that the operation of nerve cells is not always deterministic, or even deterministic most of the time with occasional random disturbances, but that fundamental, higher-level actions occurring in the brain (i.e. human choices) can constrain the microscopic behavior of nerve cells, and that these constraints, when aggregated over a large number of nerve cells, can result in neuro-muscular movements.

Readers will notice that in the foregoing account, I have said nothing about an immaterial soul. For my own part, I happen to believe in one, as I see no way in which a bodily process of any kind – whether high-level or low-level – can be said to possess meaning in its own right, as our beliefs and desires clearly do. I conclude that a thought cannot be identified with any kind of bodily process, and that a volition which is based on that thought cannot be equated with any physical process either. If I’m right, then we have to embrace some kind of dualism, as I proposed in a post entitled, Why I think the Interaction Problem is Real. But if this philosophical argument for the immateriality of the human intellect turns out to be mistaken, then we will simply have to say, as the philosopher John Locke did, that it is possible for “matter fitly disposed” to think and choose, after all – an assertion which scandalized some of his contemporaries, but which is held by some Christians (e.g. Jehovah’s Witnesses).

Do laboratory experiments rule out the existence of free will?

Professor Coyne’s second argument against human freedom is an experimental one: our choices are predictable, several seconds before we consciously make them:

Recent experiments involving brain scans show that when a subject “decides” to push a button on the left or right side of a computer, the choice can be predicted by brain activity at least seven seconds before the subject is consciously aware of having made it.

Well, let’s have a look at these experiments, shall we? The following video of a “No free will” experiment by John-Dylan Haynes (Professor at the Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience Berlin), appears to refute the notion of free will. According to the video, an outside observer, monitoring my brain, can tell which of two buttons I’m going to push, six seconds before I consciously decide to do so. But there are several things about this experiment that Professor Coyne left out of his op-ed piece.

Unimpressive results

First, as Coyne acknowledges in a post on his Web site, Why Evolution Is True, entitled, The no-free-will experiment, avec video, “the ‘predictability’ of the results is not perfect: it seems to be around 60%, better than random prediction but nevertheless statistically significant.” Sorry, but I don’t think that’s very impressive. What we have here is the simplest of all possible choices – “Press the button in your left hand or the button in your right hand” – being monitored by an MRI scanner, while a trained professional is looking on. If the outside observer guessed the subject’s choice, he’d be right 50% of the time; with the aid of an MRI scanner, the accuracy rises to 60%. This is the experiment that’s supposed to shatter my belief in free will? I’m absolutely devastated.

Adina Roskies, a neuroscientist and philosopher who works on free will at Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire, isn’t too impressed with Professor Haynes’ experiment either. “All it suggests,” she says, “is that there are some physical factors that influence decision-making”, which shouldn’t be surprising. That’s quite different from claiming that you can see the brain making its mind up before it is consciously aware of doing so.

Reflection was ruled out at the start

Second, the experiment was deliberately designed to exclude the possibility of reflection. In the experiment, as narrator Marcus du Sautoy (Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford) puts it, “I have to randomly decide, and then immediately press, one of these left or right buttons.” Now, most people would say that a reflective weighing up of options is integral to the notion of free will. There is a philosophical difference between liberty of spontaneity – as exemplified by the phrase, “free as a bird” – and liberty of choice, which is peculiar to rational animals like ourselves. Acting on impulse is not the same as making a free decision.

The choice was artificial, in several ways

Third, the experiment relates to an artificial choice which is stripped of several features which normally characterize our free choices:

(a) it’s completely arbitrary. It doesn’t matter which button the subject decides to press. Typically, our choices are about things that really do matter – e.g. who the next President of the United States will be.

(b) it’s binary: left or right. In real life, however, we usually choose between multiple options – often, between an indefinitely large number of options – for example, when we ask ourselves, “What career shall I pursue after I graduate?”

(c) it’s zero-dimensional. Normally, when we make choices, there are multiple axes along which we can evaluate the desirability of the various options – e.g. when deciding which city to move to, we might consider factors such as weather, proximity of family members and income earning opportunities. One city might have ideal weather but few job opportunities; another may be close to where family members live, but bitterly cold. In the experiment described above, there were no axes along which we could weigh up the desirability of the two options (left or right button), as there was literally nothing to compare.

(d) it’s impersonal. We are social animals, and most of our choices relate to other people – e.g. “Whom shall I marry?” Pressing a button, on the other hand, is a solitary act.

(e) it contains no reference to second-order mental states. Typically, when we choose, we give careful consideration to what other people will think of our choice, and how they’ll feel about it – e.g. “What will people think if I wear a clown suit on Casual Friday, and will my boss be annoyed?” To entertain these thoughts, we have to be capable of second-order mental states: thoughts about other people’s thoughts. These are a vital part of what makes us human: although chimps certainly know what other individuals want, there’s no good evidence to date that chimps have beliefs about other individuals’ beliefs. Humans may be unique in having what psychologists refer to as a theory of mind.

(f) it’s future-blind. The choice of whether to press the left button or the right button is a here-and-now choice, with no reference to future consequences. In real life, choices are seldom divorced from consequences, and we fail to advert to these consequences at our peril. For example, choosing to party the night before an exam may ruin your career prospects forever.

(g) it has no feedback mechanism. Not only do choices typically have consequences, but the results of our choices are usually communicated back to us in a way that influences our future behavior. Think of the experience of learning to ride a bicycle, when you were a child. And now compare this with the button-pressing example: no feedback, nothing learned by the subject.

So, what can the predictability (60% of the time) of an arbitrary, binary, impersonal choice, which involves no weighing up, no worries about what other people might think, no thought of the future and no feedback, possibly tell us about the existence of free will in human beings? Absolutely nothing.

What about “free won’t”?

Fourth, the experiment described by Coyne made no attempt to evaluate Benjamin Libet’s hypothesis of “free won’t”: “while we may not be able to choose our actions, we can choose to veto our actions.” What happens if the subject is permitted to decide in advance which button they will press, but is also free to change their mind at the last minute? Can a trained outside observer, who is monitoring an MRI scanner, pick up this sudden change of mind on the subject’s part? Coyne does not tell us. He writes that “from the standpoint of physics, instigating an action is no different from vetoing one, and in fact involves the same regions of the brain.” Fine; but that does not tell us whether a veto is in fact predictable in advance. Only experiments can demonstrate whether this is true or not.

Can free will be meaningfully attributed to acts performed over a short time period?

A fifth criticism that can be made of Haynes’ experiment is that the time scale involved makes it meaningless to speak of free will or its absence, just as it would be meaningless to ask what color a hydrogen atom is. Typically, our free choices are preceded by an extended period of deliberation, followed by the brain’s preparation for the execution of a bodily movement, followed by activation of specialized areas of the brain which are responsible for the contraction of specific muscles in the body. It could therefore be argued that freedom is a property which does not attach to the decision to act here and now, but to the entire process leading up to the decision. If this criticism is correct, then those who argue against free will based on experiments like the one recently conducted by Professor Haynes, are simply making a category mistake.

Do magnetic fields interfere with free will?

Finally, we need to consider the possibility that magnetic fields themselves may actually interfere with the exercise of free choice, which would invalidate the experiment described by Coyne. After all, scientists have already shown that they can alter people’s moral judgments simply by disrupting a specific area of the brain with magnetic pulses (Liane Young et al. “Disruption of the right temporoparietal junction with transcranial magnetic stimulation reduces the role of beliefs in moral judgments.” In PNAS April 13, 2010 vol. 107 no. 15, 6753-6758, doi: 10.1073/pnas.0914826107). In another experiment, researchers found that it was possible to influence which hand people move by stimulating frontal regions that are involved in movement planning using transcranial magnetic stimulation in either the left or right hemisphere of the brain. Curiously, the subjects continued to report that they believed their choice of hand had been made freely. (Ammon, K. and Gandevia, S.C. (1990) “Transcranial magnetic stimulation can influence the selection of motor programmes.” Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery and Psychiatry 53: 705–707.)

To be sure, transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) is a much more invasive procedure than lying inside an MRI scanner, as the subject did in Professor Haynes’ experiment: in the case of TMS, a coil is held near a person’s head to generate magnetic field impulses that stimulate underlying brain cells in a way that that can make someone perform a specific action. But I would argue that if powerful magnetic fields can temporarily disrupt free choices, then it should be no surprise that the “choice” made by a person while inside an MRI scanner turns out to be predictable more often than not. Thus the 60% accuracy claimed for Professor Haynes’ experiment, far from showing that human choices are predictable, may only be a measure of how strongly even an MRI scanner can bias the normal exercise of our free will.

But the most damning evidence of all comes from the Wikipedia article on functional magnetic resonance imaging, which makes the following admissions:

While the static magnetic field has no known long-term harmful effect on biological tissue, it can cause damage by pulling in nearby heavy metal objects, converting them to projectiles…

Scanning sessions also subject participants to loud high-pitched noises from Lorentz forces induced in the gradient coils by the rapidly switching current in the powerful static field. The gradient switching can also induce currents in the body causing nerve tingling. Implanted medical devices such as pacemakers could malfunction because of these currents. The radio-frequency field of the excitation coil may heat up the body, and this has to be monitored more carefully in those running a fever, the diabetic, and those with circulatory problems. Local burning from metal necklaces and other jewelry is also a risk. (Italics mine – VJT.)

So these magnetic currents are strong enough to turn metal objects into projectiles, make metal necklaces burn people wearing them, heat up people’s bodies and make their nerves tingle, and even cause pacemakers to malfunction? Why, I have to ask, are we using devices like this to study free will? I could not think of a better illustration of the maxim, “To observe is to disturb,” if I tried.

Does alien hand syndrome disprove free will?

In a recent article entitled, Does alien hand syndrome refute free will? (Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, Trinity International University, 15 December 2010), Dr. William Cheshire Jr. discusses the strange phenomenon of “alien hand syndrome,” which refers to “a variety of rare neurological conditions in which one extremity, most commonly the left hand, is perceived as not belonging to the person or as having a will of its own, together with observable uncontrollable behavior independent of conscious control.” The seemingly purposeful movements of the alien hand are more than mere spasms: they are goal-directed. For example, while playing checkers, one patient’s left hand made an odd move which he did not wish to make. He corrected the move with his right hand, but to his great annoyance, his left hand then repeated the same odd move.

In his article, Dr. Cheshire explains why he disagrees with psychologists such as Daniel Wegner, who cite these experiments as proof that conscious will is an illusion. He points out that there are important neurological differences between the movements of an alien hand and that of a hand which is normally connected to its motor cortex:

In a patient with a right parietal stroke, alien left hand movements correlated with isolated activation by intentional planning systems of the right primary motor cortex, presumably released from conscious control. Voluntary hand movements, by contrast, activated a distributed network involving not only the primary motor cortex but also premotor areas in the inferior frontal gyrus.

Dr. Cheshire also points out that alien hands have never been known to execute a complex sequence of actions, such as writing a letter. He argues that “the curious gestures of the alien hand and their ostensibly materialistic philosophical implications have not rendered free will obsolete,” and concludes: “To acknowledge that alien hand action is not freely willed would not be to conclude that all nontrivial human action is determined.”

What would disprove free will?

What would create problems for the idea of free will is an experiment showing that we could make a person perform an act – preferably a complex one that requires some planning and control – that they thought was a genuine free choice of theirs, simply by stimulating their brain. Research conducted a few decades ago by the late neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield seemed to point very heavily the other way. His attempts to produce thoughts or decisions by stimulating people’s brains were a total failure: while stimulation could induce flashbacks and vividly evoke old memories, it never generated intentions or choices. On some occasions, Penfield was able to make a patient’s arm go up by stimulating the motor cortex their brain with an electric probe, causing the patient’s arm to move. When Penfield asked the patient, “What’s happening?”, the patient replied, “My arm is moving up.” When Penfield asked, “Are you moving your arm?”, the patient said, “No, it is moving up on its own.” Penfield then said, “OK, now I am going to continue to stimulate your brain, but I want you to make a choice, and not let it go up. Move it in a different direction.” The patient was finally able to resist the movement. (See The Mystery of the Mind: A Critical Study of Consciousness and the Human Brain. Princeton University Press, 1975.) What this suggests, at the very least, is that although local stimulation of the brain causes the body to move the arm one way, it is possible for a higher-level executive decision by the person whose brain is being stimulated to overwrite the local commands of the brain to the body.

However, in a recent article entitled, Human volition: towards a neuroscience of will (Nature Reviews Neuroscience, 9, pp. 934-946, 2008), Patrick Haggard reported that directly stimulating the pre-Supplementary Motor Area (pre-SMA) in the brain caused volunteers to report feeling an urge to move the corresponding limb, and sufficient stimulation of that same area caused actual movement of the limb. In one experiment, a patient spotted an apple that belonged to the examiner, and a knife left on purpose on a corner of the testing desk. He peeled the apple and ate it. The examiner asked, “Why did you eat my apple?” The patient replied, “Well, … it was there.” “Are you hungry?” asked the examiner. “No. Well, a bit,” said the patient. “Have you not just finished eating?” “Yes.” “Is this apple yours?” “No.” “So why are you eating it?” “Because it is here.” At first blush, this seems to suggest that the intention to peel and eat an apple can be induced simply by stimulating the brain in the pre-SMA – which runs counter to the idea of free will. Haggard himself acknowledges, though, that the proper function of this area of the brain is to inhibit actions rather than to cause them. It could therefore be argued that stimulation of the pre-SMA interferes with its normal function of inhibiting urges to move, resulting in uninhibited actions which the patient nevertheless found it difficult to account for: he ate the apple “because it was there.” In any case, this is not a true example of intentional agency: typically, an agent is able to supply specific reasons for his or her choices, and in this case, the patient was not.

In a follow-up paper, Moore et al. showed that the subjective feeling of control when performing an intentional act, which can be measured as a temporal linkage between actions and their effects, depends at least partly on the pre-SMA. The authors suggested that the pre-SMA makes a special contribution to sense of agency, housing the predictive mechanisms contributing to the sense of agency. (“Disrupting the experience of control in the human brain: pre-supplementary motor area contributes to the sense of agency.” Proceedings of the Royal Society B, 22 August 2010, vol. 277 no. 1693, pp. 2503-2509. doi: 10.1098/rspb.2010.0404.)

These findings are welcome news to people interested in the mechanics of free will. It should hardly be surprising that several regions of the brain are involved in decision making, and that interference with one or more of these regions can distort our sense of agency in very odd ways. That, however, does not mean we are not free; all it means is that we are highly complex beings.

A final comment that I would like to make concerns the need for critics of free will to avoid attacking straw men. Scientific studies which purport to discredit the popular notion of free will frequently characterize the concept in dualistic terms, whereas I have argued above that dualism is not essential to the notion of free will. Additionally, many studies incorporate very naive assumptions about the supposedly incorrigible access that I should have to my mental states, if my will is genuinely free. However, there is no reason for a dualist – let alone a proponent of libertarian free will – to adopt such a naive view. Even if the human mind is immaterial, that does not automatically mean that it cannot be fooled into thinking that it made a decision when it didn’t, or vice versa. Whatever version of free will science uncovers in the end, it is likely to be a highly sophisticated one.

Conclusion

I conclude that reports of the death of free will are “greatly exaggerated” (to borrow a phrase from Mark Twain). Before scientists investigate the truth or falsity of mind-body dualism (whether of the Cartesian or Aristotelian variety), they need to focus their attention on the possibility of top-down causation occurring within the brain, where macro-level executive decisions impose a constraint on non-deterministic events taking place in nerve cells at the micro-level, which, when aggregated, results in a specific pattern of neuro-muscular behavior. In this post, I have outlined how this kind of causation would make free will possible.

Is free will a viable concept or not? What do readers think?

Comments
heh. Thanks :)Elizabeth Liddle
January 9, 2012
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Elizabeth: When I was writing about "modern educated people" I no longer had you in mind -- I had launched upon a general essay on the prejudices of the modern mind, stimulated by Champignon's remark about conscious and unconscious beliefs. And by "modern" I meant the sort of middle-class educated person living in France, Britain, America, etc. over the past 150 years or so, though I had in mind mostly the postwar generations, i.e., from 1945 on. From the end of WW II on, middle-class thinking has become ever more monolithic, in both Britain and the USA. Thus, even though I was not thinking specifically of you, you would be just as "modern," in general terms, as your son, even if he regards you as Neolithic for using e-mail rather than "texting." T.Timaeus
January 9, 2012
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Re "modern educated people" - how modern do you think I am, Timaeus? I was born in 1952. My son (b 1993) would highly amused.Elizabeth Liddle
January 9, 2012
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Sorry, meant "Champignon has responded more than adequately on my behalf...." Oops.Elizabeth Liddle
January 9, 2012
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Timaeus has responded more than adequately on my behalf but I'll say one thing more: Yes, as we age, we come to regret that some words that we enjoyed for the meaning they used to have no longer have those connotations. My own pet peeve is "disinterested", a lovely word with a lovelier meaning, and the grumpy old woman with in me growls that not only have we lost the word, but we seem to have lost the virtue as well. Another is "want", which used to mean "need" and now means "desire", with the under-implication that one's desires are also needs. Grrr. But language always changes. We have splended new words as well, and some splendid new concepts that have occasionally hijacked an old word with a perfectly good use of its own. That's a shame (pity?). But if it were not so, language would never have developed to be the many-splendor'd thing it is in the first place, and even if it had, it would scarcely serve our purposes. And in any case, when we are talking about science (or anything technical, actually) it's important, if we are to avoid equivocation, because very few words have a precise universally acknowledged definition) to give the relevant conceptual or operational definition intended by the writer. Which is why I qualified my use of the term "chaotic". Chaos, in its new sense, is a profound and powerful concept, and considering the brain as a chaotic system has already proved, and continues to prove, highly enlightening.Elizabeth Liddle
January 8, 2012
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Timaeus, You mocked what Elizabeth wrote, using an uncharitable interpretation of her words that doesn't match what she was actually trying to say, as you yourself admit. You then presume to have identified her unconscious motives and to scold her for them. And you wonder why I object? Shall I claim to have detected an unconscious misogyny in your comments to Elizabeth, due to unresolved sexual issues in your past? Somehow, I suspect you would object to my presumptuousness if I were to do so.champignon
January 8, 2012
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Champignon: I made essentially a single side-point, tangential to the main discussion here, but still, I thought, important. I've explained now twice why I thought it was important; I won't explain it again. You seem to be worried that I have personally offended Elizabeth. If I did, she can tell me so, and I'll address her concerns, rather than yours. Elizabeth and I have been discussing various matters for several months now, long before I ever saw your name on UD, and we have ways of working things out for ourselves; but thanks for your concern. I make no apologies for the "scare quotes" on "shame" -- because the word "shame" suggests a deplorable situation, and the juxtaposition of the word with a comment on lay language seemed to cast an indirect negative light on lay language, without mentioning that, in this case, the *cause* of the deplorable situation lies entirely with the scientists who have altered the meaning of "chaotic." I tried to demonstrate this to you with my alternate wording, but apparently the point escaped you. I won't try to make it again. As for conscious versus unconscious, it is as important to bring to people's attention objections their unconscious assumptions as their conscious ones. When modern, middle-class university graduates call taking their kids to the circus "a great opportunity for parent-child bonding," they are using mechanistic, reductionist language, whether they know it or not, and it's good to bring to their attention that they speak of "bonding" where the tradition would have spoken of "love," and that the difference between the two is important. It's harder to cure educated than uneducated people of these verbal habits, because educated people have been schooled to think they are more thoughtful and careful in their use of language than the average person, and can't imagine that they would ever say anything that had implications they hadn't thought of. But in fact, modern educated people have their heads crammed full of half-intellectual notions that they haven't thought out, but have just absorbed from the modern ethos. I've known salesmen and farmers and housewives who are less infected by these notions than university professors and lawyers and journalists. I think it's important to challenge these notions. If you don't like such challenges, you don't have to read my posts. But I don't intend to stop making them. T.Timaeus
January 8, 2012
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Timaeus,
I’m quite willing to believe that Elizabeth wasn’t consciously blaming anyone. But our ways of saying things often indicate unconscious attitudes. I was trying to expose one such unconscious attitude. And I didn’t mean to be picking on Elizabeth personally.
So we are now to be scolded for our unconscious attitudes, despite the fact that we are, by definition, unaware of them? As for not picking on Elizabeth, take another look at what you wrote:
Elizabeth Liddle: You wrote: “The brain is a profoundly chaotic system. I mean “chaotic” in the technical sense, of course – it’s a shame it has a lay meaning of disordered. Chaotic systems, as you know, are highly structured.” Yes, what a “shame” that the word “chaos” had a meaning in the English language long before some very recent scientific investigators came along and chose to give the word a very different meaning! If only those bothersome “normal” people, with their everyday use of language, could be got rid of, and scientists were put in charge of language! The world would be a much better place then. Just think; we could redefine “love” and “justice” and “wisdom” and “beauty” with the precision of modern science. B. F. Skinner could give us scientifically clear and distinct meaning of the word “love,” and maybe Peter Atkins could inform us how better to use the word “beauty,” and so on. No more of this inaccurate folk-talk; rigorous language would reign supreme. And that’s we we need, isn’t it?
If you weren't picking on her personally, what do you call quoting her and mocking what she said in two snarky paragraphs filled with scare quotes, all under an interpretation of her remarks that you concede she did not intend?champignon
January 8, 2012
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Champignon: I understood Elizabeth's point. You, however, seem not to have fully understood mine. To make it clearer, I offer the following imaginary alternative. Elizabeth *could have* written: "It's a shame the scientists who originated chaos theory chose a word with an already established meaning which was bound to get confused with the meaning they wanted to convey". Do you feel the difference between *this* way of expressing a concern about "confusion" and the way Elizabeth chose to express it? It's quite a palpable difference, actually. I'm quite willing to believe that Elizabeth wasn't consciously blaming anyone. But our ways of saying things often indicate unconscious attitudes. I was trying to expose one such unconscious attitude. And I didn't mean to be picking on Elizabeth personally. As my comments showed, I was addressing a wider trend in the English language, a trend whereby technical terms are unskilfully forged out of non-technical language, and then, as the technical term slowly creeps out of technical literature into general discourse, communication problems develop. The solution is not to name things improperly in the first place. Educators should not be writing "outcome" when they mean "desired outcome"; they should use the language of the common people unless there is a pressing necessity to do otherwise, e.g., if the language of the common people is incorrect or misleading. But there is nothing incorrect or misleading about the way everyday people use the word "outcome"; in fact, it is the highly-paid educators, with their Ph.D.s and their Directorships of Education, who are using the word "outcome" in an incorrect and confusing way. Parents, students, and school-board trustees can't understand this strange jargon, and therefore, it shouldn't be used. "Chaotic systems are in fact highly structured" is an example of where natural scientists do the same thing. The statement is obviously false in its everyday sense --"chaotic systems" would not be highly structured; they would be, well, chaotic, i.e., disorderly and unstructured. [In addition, the sentence is meaningless, as the subject, "chaotic system" is a contradiction in terms, as if one had said, "Square circles are highly structured." If it's truly "chaotic" in the normal sense, it won't be a "system" at all.] What is really meant, it seems, is that "In certain contexts, apparently chaotic events are in fact highly structured." Such language would better serve the purpose of universal communication, because it would mean the same thing to any literate person -- layman or scientist -- who read it. The same could be said about Hawking's recent blatherings about getting universes out of "nothing." But of, course, by "nothing" Hawking does not mean what normal literate human beings mean by "nothing"; he is referring to "the quantum vacuum" which is not "nothing." But the public, learning its science from the 15-second sound bite, will not understand that, and Hawking's language thus confuses all non-physicists, and is misleading, strictly speaking, even to physicists. It used to be, up to about 50 years ago, that highly educated people were the ones we could count on to use language clearly, precisely, and properly, and that the masses were the ones who used language loosely, sloppily, and erroneously. But over the past 50 years, the reverse has increasingly been the case, with the more highly educated people leading the way in bizarre terminology and strange misuses of words. When a professor of film studies says that "Violence is the greatest form of pornography in films," he is talking nonsense, because he is misusing the term "pornography." What he is trying to say is that violence in films should be regarded as much more offensive than pornography; instead, he confuses the public about the meaning of "pornography" in a way that the non-university-educated generation of my parents never would have done. And of course, let's not forget all those American and British social science professors of the 1960s and 1970s who taught their students to regard free market economics as "Fascist," thus making it impossible to have a serious intellectual discussion about economic systems. Needless to say, in a civilization that is already suffering severe fragmentation, serious confusion in the very language we speak and write is no laughing matter. Much more could be said about this, but I'll stop. T.Timaeus
January 8, 2012
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Wow, Timaeus, you're awfully quick to attack. You wrote:
Yes, what a “shame” that the word “chaos” had a meaning in the English language long before some very recent scientific investigators came along and chose to give the word a very different meaning! If only those bothersome “normal” people, with their everyday use of language, could be got rid of, and scientists were put in charge of language! The world would be a much better place then.
This is clearly not what Elizabeth meant. She wrote:
The brain is a profoundly chaotic system. I mean “chaotic” in the technical sense, of course – it’s a shame it has a lay meaning of disordered. Chaotic systems, as you know, are highly structured.
She's simply lamenting the confusion caused by the difference between the technical and lay definitions, not blaming anyone for it. She's not suggesting that the lay meaning be abandoned or that the hoi polloi should be gassed for using the word that way. Why interpret her comment so negatively when a benign interpretation makes more sense? Your trigger finger seems a bit twitchy these days where Elizabeth is concerned.champignon
January 8, 2012
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Elizabeth Liddle: You wrote: "The brain is a profoundly chaotic system. I mean “chaotic” in the technical sense, of course – it’s a shame it has a lay meaning of disordered. Chaotic systems, as you know, are highly structured." Yes, what a "shame" that the word "chaos" had a meaning in the English language long before some very recent scientific investigators came along and chose to give the word a very different meaning! If only those bothersome "normal" people, with their everyday use of language, could be got rid of, and scientists were put in charge of language! The world would be a much better place then. Just think; we could redefine "love" and "justice" and "wisdom" and "beauty" with the precision of modern science. B. F. Skinner could give us scientifically clear and distinct meaning of the word "love," and maybe Peter Atkins could inform us how better to use the word "beauty," and so on. No more of this inaccurate folk-talk; rigorous language would reign supreme. And that's we we need, isn't it? Just think of education theory, in which educators now use the word "outcomes" to mean "objectives" or "desired goals," whereas the vulgar, unwashed, common folk still use the primitive, utterly unclear meaning of "outcome," i.e., "what actually happens." Think of how much confusion the vulgar are bringing to the world, by employing the word "outcome" in a usage that has survived due to its utility and etymological transparency for centuries, when they could do the world a service by dropping that usage and going along with the usage introduced in the 1970s by people with Ph.D.s in Education! We must not of course allow ourselves to consider absolutely ludicrous alternative views, such as, for example, the irrational view that scientists (and other specialists) should, instead of taking a word with an established meaning and twisting it into an unrecognizable sense, should invent their own *new* term for the new meaning they are trying to express, and leave the everyday meaning of existing words alone. No, that would be just silly! T.Timaeus
January 8, 2012
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vjtorley,
I think that the real issue in your post pertains to human nature. You believe that evil desires are part of our corrupt nature, and yet you also believe that they are despicable. But surely a thing cannot be legitimately despised simply for being what it is
If you believe that our nature is corrupt (as a Christian should – I assume you are a Christian by things you have said), then by definition it is correct to despise it. But then what does it mean to have a corrupt nature but to have corrupt desires (or at least that is what I am arguing). And in regards to wolves, I don’t think I have ever been indignant towards them for eating sheep, nor have I been indignant towards men for doing the same. However, if I were to find wolves gossiping against one another behind their backs, and holding grudges and being inclined to murder other wolves because they were tailgating too close on the freeway, I would find that despicable. Dumb animals do not kill out of malice, or greed, or envy, or pride, but humans do, and there is quite a difference wouldn’t you say? But besides that, if prophecy tells us that the lion will eat grass and lie down with the lamb, it seems to me that that would imply that the current state of nature is not as it was meant to be. Otherwise, we wouldn’t get sad when we watch a leopard take down a baby gazelle on the PBS nature shows. Nature itself is bent, and though it may not cause indignation, it at least causes sadness, and if it causes sadness, then we can say that it is less than perfect (or corrupted).
Also, if we are corrupt by nature, and Adam before the Fall was not, then it would follow that Adam had a different nature from ourselves, before the Fall. If our nature is to be human, than what nature did Adam possess? Was he non-human, then?
I have thought about this at some length. What you say is a really good point: if it is our nature that is corrupt and causes us to act out sinful behavior, and Adam was created with a non-corrupt nature, then why would he sin in the first place? I think the answer, at least in part, is in the fact that commands are given that are to be followed that are independent of the nature of our desires. IOW, we may have a desire for something that is not necessarily bad to desire, yet we are told not to do it because it will hose other things up if we do. With Adam, he was told to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (whether this is metaphor or not, I will not get into), “for the day you eat of it you shall die”. But when he did eat of it, he did not die until several hundred years later, so in what sense did he die? He died to God because his very nature became corrupted, so we see his nature modified only after the fact (human both before and after, but afterwards bent). So why did he sin? I think the answer lies in that what we believe determines whether we will obey God or not. Satan approached Eve and cast doubt on the truth of what God had said, and introduced another possibility to believe to be true. She was told “did God say you would not die? You will not surely die”! We are also told that the fruit was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom. So there were two desires here before the fact, the desire to eat the fruit and to be wise, which in and of themselves are not bad or corrupt desires per se. So then what held them back from eating the fruit before Satan arrived? It was at least the fear of death. The desire to stay alive was stronger it seems, and kept them from eating it beforehand. But when Satan lied, there were then two candidate possibilities, and if there is no other way to determine which one is true, they will tend to cancel each other out (or at least that is my experience). The fall back would be the idea that God is just and true, and knowing this, the tendency would be to believe God over the serpent, not knowing anything about him, but Satan cast doubt on that too. Eve was told “God knows that when you eat of it you will become like him”, which cast doubt on the very character of God. With these two beliefs up in the air and cancelling each other out, it removed the fear of death, at least in part, and the desire to eat the fruit and be wise took precedence, so she ate. So we see here that even for Adam & Eve, their desires determined their actions. They were murdered by Satan, yet murdered nonetheless. Or that’s how I see it, anyway.M. Holcumbrink
January 6, 2012
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Sure does, but I was your junior by a year, and doing medicine @ Pembroke.Jon Garvey
January 6, 2012
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Jon I did my philosophy degree at Cambridge from 1969-72. Does that make us contempories?markf
January 6, 2012
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I don't suppose you did your music degree at Cambridge? If so we were contemporaries.Jon Garvey
January 6, 2012
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That's the way I usually try to handle it too, but when I know I am arguing with theists or professing Christians, I tend to do a little "appealing to authority" with the Bible. I know I will lose the athiests, but at that point my argument is not directed towards them anyway.M. Holcumbrink
January 5, 2012
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ScottAndrews2 But ID doesn’t point to God or the Bible. It just points to one or more intelligent entities. --------------------------------------- It depends what you mean by science. For example. There is biology, anthropology, archaeology, historians and sociology. These are sciences as well. These all have to be included in a search of our origin. And science works ok, but it's the scientists, that you have to watch out for. I have been told by 'evolutionary' scientists that they do not have a method of detecting, ID. That means if you give them a loaf of bread, they would theorize and study it, and try to prove how it came about on it's own naturally. But of course never be able to prove it. ( sound familiar ?) They do not use other branches of science , to help in their search for answers. They would soon find that there are contradictions, from other scientific fields of study. http://patternsofcreation.weebly.com/MrDunsapy
January 5, 2012
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I believe in God and the Bible, and I think the conclusions of ID make sense. But ID doesn't point to God or the Bible. It just points to one or more intelligent entities. I think there's also abundant evidence in nature that points to God. It just isn't particularly scientific. The trouble is that rather than using science as a tool to discover reality, too many come to think that science defines reality. (They may not admit it, but in practice they reject anything that cannot be demonstrated scientifically, except when it suits them not to.) This reasoning amounts to concluding that if we can't see something, it can't exist. Not doesn't exist, may or may not exist, but can't exist. This is flawed on its surface, because from the cell to the neighborhood to the universe, reality is clearly full of things that existed before we had the means to detect them. I know, I know. That's Not How Science Works. And it's not. That's how people work.ScottAndrews2
January 5, 2012
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MrD:
There is a difference between desire and decisions.
And who would disagree with that! And that is in large part what I am trying to say! Yet it seems to me that you equivocate the two regularly, like when you say “If you have a desire to follow God, that is your free will to choose that”. You must realize that ‘our will’ is synonymous with ‘our desire’ (the word ‘free’ must be dropped in order for us to make any headway here). So when you say this, what you are actually saying is “If you have a desire to choose God, that is your desire to choose that”, as if that was profound. That’s like saying “if you want to jump up and down, then that’s what you want to do”! Then you say “if we did not have free will, there would be no choice”. Well what do you mean? If you equivocate ‘free will’ and ‘choice’, that’s like saying “if we did not have choice, there would be no choice”, which is absurd. But if you replace ‘free will’ with ‘desire’, then we can say “if we did not have a desire, then there would be no [meaningful] choice”, which is true, and I have been saying that, but I am saying more. You seem to be under the impression that when people like me say that we do not have free will, what you think of is God grabbing us by the scruff of the neck and making us do this or that by pulling our strings (hence your reference to robots), but that is not at all what I am saying. When we do anything at all, we are making choices, not anyone else. We do them on our own accord. But because choice is distinct from desire, the question is: why do we do what we do? Why do we make the uncoerced decisions that we do? Is it because we want to, or is it because of some obscure thing called ‘free will’ that we posses within ourselves? You assert the latter, but that doesn’t make any sense experientially if you pay attention to yourself, nor does not make any sense causally.
But what we see in humans is that 2 people both trying to follow God, both with the same pressures, one will go one way and the other might choose a different way. That is why God has forgiveness, we are not going to always make the correct decisions, because we have free will
Yes, we see this all the time, people facing the same circumstances making completely different decisions. You appeal to this “free will” to explain it, but I am saying that it is due to their individual desires, which is a much more satisfying explanation, it seems to me. So you say: “we do what we do because of ‘free will’.” But I say: “we do what we do because we want to.” But is that so profound? It reminds me of being a kid when my parents would ask me “why did you do that”, to which I always had the notion to respond “because I wanted to”, but dared not, so I would always say “I don’t know” and played dumb. And is there any doubt that we often times have conflicting desires? Then the explanation becomes “we do this and not that because we want to do this more than we want to do that.” Again, is that so profound? Who would argue with that statement? [We desire to eat the chocolate, but we also desire to lose weight, and in the end one of the two will win out based on which is strongest. But the strength of these desire wax and wane, so we find ourselves alternating between our choices. Why is that so hard to see?] Every choice we make revolves around a desire, and it is absurd to assert otherwise. Our desires drive our choices, and this was Christ’s position on the matter. So then we come to the big question of can we control our desires (which you also seem to advocate). If we cannot, then our actions are determined by things outside of us, and so is our course in life. But to say that we can change our desires is at least causally absurd, and is certainly not in line with our experiences. So assume that our desires drive our choices, then consider the following: 1) Let’s say I start off with no desire to do anything whatsoever. What would prompt me to make the decision to give myself desires? If you say “free will”, that’s a cop out. It’s like a Darwinist saying “random mutation + natural selection did it”. In this sense ‘free will’ doesn’t mean anything at all, it’s a black box that we appeal to, and we still need to ask the question of why our ‘free will’ caused us to make the choice. But if we say that we desired to give ourselves desires, that doesn’t make any sense either, because the desire is what we are trying to explain in the first place. That’s like a physicist saying that the universe created itself from itself. 2) Now let’s say that I have a desire to do something that I consider to be wrong (steal, lie, murder, take your pick). There is a struggle here that will more than likely ensue if I am inclined to resist it due to the desire to do what is right. But if I have the ability to change my desires, then I should just change my desire to NOT want to do the wrong, and the struggle is over. And yet we still struggle because we cannot change our desires, even if we want to. And if you say that we can learn to change our desires over time, does that excuse the murderer because when he committed the murder he did not have the ability to change his desires? No. Besides, that would just be an admission that there are times when we certainly cannot change our desires, and yet are still culpable. So at best what we are left with is the desire to be rid of our wicked desires, and we are stuck with that until the next life. The Puritans understood this well, and self-examination is the key to seeing it.M. Holcumbrink
January 5, 2012
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ScottAndrews2 If we are not real, then you can't kill yourself. And could not think about it. You have to be real to dream. This is the problem with human philosophy, you can go to outlandish ideas. The scientific evidence plus other evidence says there is a God. It is not as though you can take God out of it, what eventually happens is that man has to subject himself to that. This idea of no God, is only temporary. That is why after a concerted effort over 150 years to prove there is no God, has failed. They still do not know how life could have started, on its own. Or have they ever seen 'evolution'. Now, we have groups that realize this, like UC and ID. The science only supports ID and ID comes from a creator. That is why I call what the scientists have done , is the "Greatest Snow Job on Earth". There is a blizzard of little bits of misinformation, and no actual proof. So what has happened is that the scientists have tried to bury the truth under all of this. But that only works for so long. The light of the truth will melt that all away . ( sounds like a sermon, :) sorry I didn't mean it that way)I could not resist that last line.:) I know I go into God more than some feel comfortable with, in this forum. But to ignore that, would mean missing out on the most important part of the evidence. What is the point of ID, with out knowing who the intelligent designer is? Isn't that the same thing as the 'evolutionary' scientists turning their backs on the evidence? Creation is science. http://patternsofcreation.weebly.com/MrDunsapy
January 5, 2012
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Hi M. Holcumbrink, Thank you for your post. Like yourself, I have no secret of turning off wicked desires and replacing them with good ones, so I think we're in the same boat on that score. However, I think that the real issue in your post pertains to human nature. You believe that evil desires are part of our corrupt nature, and yet you also believe that they are despicable. But surely a thing cannot be legitimately despised simply for being what it is. You might dislike and even loathe wolves for killing sheep, but it would make no sense to get indignant at them for doing so. If we are wolves by nature, morally speaking, then indignation would have no place in our moral vocabulary. And yet I find myself saying that we do have a right to feel indignant at killers like Genghis Khan, and I would not be impressed if he had insisted that it was in his nature to kill. For any particular vice that we find in human beings, we can always find some human beings who are not guilty of it; hence we have no grounds to call it natural. Also, if we are corrupt by nature, and Adam before the Fall was not, then it would follow that Adam had a different nature from ourselves, before the Fall. If our nature is to be human, than what nature did Adam possess? Was he non-human, then? I would prefer to say that in the absence of supernatural grace, our nature finds it much harder to combat sin than it otherwise would; and of course, acts of faith, hope and charity that require supernatural grace are beyond us. Even those who have received the gift of grace are prone to stumble, as they have to overcome a lifetime of bad habits. Grace, I believe, can perfect nature, but does not destroy it. A new man is still a man. My two cents.vjtorley
January 5, 2012
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M. Holcumbrink, As far as I can tell we're saying the same thing. Willing obedience is an expression of love. In fact the primary expressions of love for God are obedience and showing love to others.ScottAndrews2
January 5, 2012
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An entity with free will has the ability to take actions which effect the physical world, but are not random nor dictated by the initial conditions of present physical state.
JDH The trouble about this definition is that it is entirely negative. You have defined free will in terms of what is not - which is not a lot of help in understanding what it is. Suppose you believe you have made a choice using your free will - then some neuroscientist shows how that choice was actually an inevitable consequence of your brain state. By your definition this no longer counts as an example of free will. But what was it about the experience of making the choice that gave you the impression that it was neither random nor dictated? See my comment 4.2.2.1 under Have Materialists Lost Their Minds? for your argument about the number of states a brain can be in.markf
January 5, 2012
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MrD, please see 12.1.1.1, I think my response to gpuccio overlaps (at least in part) with what I would say in response to you here.M. Holcumbrink
January 5, 2012
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Scott, but I would say that Christ desired to please his Father more than he desired to avoid the cross. He also desired the same as the Father, which was to redeem his people. It was love that held him to the tree, as they say. And what is love but the desire for the well being, joy, happiness and pleasure of others. So I would say that Christ desired these things much more than he desired to avoid the agony of the cross. IOW it was Christ love of the Father and of us that determined what he would do.M. Holcumbrink
January 5, 2012
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gpuccio, I see here three main parts in what you have said: The first part is “that we make the choices that we do according to how, inwardly, we react to our situation”, and I agree completely, as long as I understand what you mean by “inwardly”. If by “inwardly” you mean our will, or desires, then I agree, because after all, as I told JDH, it is our desires that define us and make us who we are (at least in part). So in other words you could have said “we make choices according to our desires, or will.” The second part is the “context where our consciousness has a moral intuition about the different meanings and values of different choices”. I suppose you are speaking of what we perceive to be ‘right’ and ’wrong’ within a moral context, whether our perceptions are accurate or not. So in other words you could have said “we have a perception of what is morally right and wrong.” The third part is where you say that “free choices are made from our heart and soul’s adherence, or not adherence, to what is intuitively felt as good”, which in other words would mean that we choose to do the right thing based on whether or not we are committed to doing the right thing. Well, I agree completely, if I have taken your meaning correctly. You have used terms like “inwardly” and “heart and soul”, but what you mean by this is up in the air. We need to be able to explain what we mean by “inwardly” and what it means to make choices “from the heart”. And I think the best way to do that is to define our ‘inward being’, or ‘our heart’, as what it is that we truly desire. Desire is what separates us from robots, or mere automatons, and it is our deep down desires that really define us as individuals. Or in other words, our will is what makes us who we are. Consciousness or awareness, and cognition, are also what makes us who we are and is necessary in order for the will to exist at all, but we all are aware and are able to cogitate, so it is therefore our individual ‘wills’ that distinguish us from one another. But what you are missing in 12.1.1 is the realization that our commitment to doing the right thing is in and of itself a desire, i.e. we desire to do the right thing, and because of that, we end up doing the right thing. Why else would we be committed to doing something unless we first had the desire to do so? It must also be said that the desire to do the right thing must be stronger than the desire to do the wrong thing, otherwise we will do the wrong thing. For after all, a commitment is nothing more than the realization that we will be confronted with situations where we will desire to do the wrong thing, so we therefore set out to remind ourselves, as often as need be, that we also desire to do the right thing, and that we desire to fight and resist the temptations so as not to cause harm to anyone or ourselves. But without the desire to do the right thing, and to fight and resist due to a hatred for what is evil, there will be no commitment of this sort.M. Holcumbrink
January 5, 2012
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From a religious perspective this seems rather simple. If one believes in God and in the Bible, then we believe when God tells us to choose, he really means for us to choose. I think we're safe to take that and run with it. If we're all just molecules subjected to the same forces, there's no explanation for even the illusion of free will, just as there is no explanation for our very existence. When you take a bunch of molecules and subject them to similar forces, you get water running downhill, or perhaps even some more complex chemical reaction. They don't form entities that question whether they have free will or only the illusion of having free will. Or they're not actually questioning their own free will, but creating an illusion of questioning the illusion of their own free will which other molecules then create the illusion of perceiving. If I take religion out of it, then I suppose we could be computer simulation or very complex automatons going through the motions of pretending to be real. But if I decide or even discover that my consciousness is an illusion, what do I do next? Kill myself? Wanton hedonism?ScottAndrews2
January 5, 2012
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...by simply counting of available states...
How would you do this?Elizabeth Liddle
January 5, 2012
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An entity with free will has the ability to take actions which effect the physical world, but are not random nor dictated by the initial conditions of present physical state
I would say that we certainly effect the physical world, and that those effects are certainly not random; but if I am to maintain that all of our choices flow from our desires (or from the heart), then I would have to reckon these desires as some kind of present state, though not necessarily physical. I would assert that if the will is an aspect of our immaterial soul, then it must be considered as some kind of ‘present or initial state’, and that it does dictate the choices that we make as various ‘inputs’ from outside physical states are presented before us. But because this non-physical ‘present or initial state’ is part of us, and is what defines us (at least in part), it is therefore appropriate to say that we are making the decisions freely according to our will. But the will itself cannot be considered to be free, because we cannot change it, and that should be plain to anyone based on their own experiences.M. Holcumbrink
January 5, 2012
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It was, essentially, the reason I started a music degree in 1970, not a psychology degree. Looking back, it seems like an aberration. Psychology was more sensible both before and afterwards. That approach was never "the entire basis of the discipline". It's demonstrably wrong, and the mistake, IMO, was to simply ignore the developmental perspective, even though much was known about it at the time. But developmental psychology has grown hugely since then. And then there's been the explosion in neuroscience.Elizabeth Liddle
January 5, 2012
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