Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Can a Lowly Lawyer Make a Useful Contribution?  Maybe.

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Dr. Moran has asked me to respond to some technical questions over at Sandwalk.  When I started writing this response I intended to put it in his combox.  Then I realized there is a lot in it that is relevant to our work at UD.  So I will put it here and link to it there.

Dr. Moran, before I answer your technical questions, allow me to make one thing perfectly clear.  I am not a scientist, much less a biologist.  I am an attorney, and being an attorney has some pluses and some minuses insofar as participating in the evolution debate goes.  Like many people in the last 25 years, I was inspired to become involved in this debate by Phillip E. Johnson’s “Darwin on Trial.”  Johnson is also an attorney, and he said this about what an attorney can bring to bear:

I approach the creation-evolution dispute not as a scientist but as a professor of law, which means among other things that I know something about the ways that words are used in arguments. . . . I am not a scientist but an academic lawyer by profession, with a specialty in analyzing the logic of arguments and identifying the assumptions that lie behind those arguments.  This background is more appropriate than one might think, because what people believe about evolution and Darwinism depends very heavily on the kind of logic they employ and the kind of assumptions they make.

Johnson is saying that attorneys are trained to detect baloney.  And that training is very helpful in the evolution debate, because that debate is chock-full of faulty logic (especially circular reasoning), abuse of language (especially equivocations), assumptions masquerading as facts, unexamined premises, etc. etc.

Consider, to take one example of many, cladistics.  It does not take a genius to know that cladistic techniques do not establish common descent; rather they assume it.  But I bet if one asked, 9 out of 10 materialist evolutionists, even the trained scientists among them, would tell you that cladistics is powerful evidence for common descent.  As Johnson argues, a lawyer’s training may help him understand when faulty arguments are being made, sometimes even better than those with a far superior grasp of the technical aspects of the field.  This is not to say that common descent is necessarily false; only cladistics does not establish the matter one way or the other.

In summary, I am trained to evaluate arguments by stripping them down to examine the meaning of the terms used, exposing the underlying assumptions, and following the logic (or, as is often the case, exposing the lack of logic).  And I think I do a pretty fair job of that, both in my legal practice and here at UD.

Now to the minuses.  I do not claim personally to be able to evaluate technical scientific questions.  Like the vast majority of people, I rely on the secondary literature, which, by and large, is accessible to a layman such as myself.  When it comes to independent analysis of technical scientific questions, I have nothing useful to say.

Back to our cladistics example.  I have a very general understanding of how clads are made and what they mean.  But I do not claim to be an expert in the technical issues that arise in the field.  Of course, that is not an obstacle to spotting a faulty argument about cladistics, as I explained above.

Digging deeper – to the fundamental core of the matter – my baloney detector allows me to spot metaphysical assumptions masquerading as scientific “facts.”  This is especially useful in the evolution debate, because – to use KF’s winsome turn of phrase – evolutionists love to cloak their metaphysical commitments in the holy lab coat.

Consider the following claim:  Evolution is a fact.

Yes it is, and it most certainly is not, depending on what one means by the word “evolution.”  If all you mean is that living things were different in the past than they are now, then sure.  Even YEC’s believe that.  But if you mean that modern materialist evolutionary theory has been proven to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold consent, then the statement is absolutely not a fact.  Even materialist evolutionists dispute such vital issues as the relative importance of natural selection.  This is quite aside from the fact that many people (especially ID proponents) do not believe the theory is even plausible, far less unassailable.

Yet I can’t tell you how many times I have caught materialists in this very equivocation.  I do not believe that materialists are always being intentionally misleading when they say this.  Some are but not all.  Those in the latter group have a commitment to materialist metaphysics that is so strong that they often cannot tell where their metaphysics ends and their empirical observations begin.  A person who allows his materialist metaphysical commitments to blind him, may truly believe that the mere fact that living things are different now than they were in the past is, on its face, evidence for materialist evolutionary theory.  Why?  Because if materialism is true, then materialist evolutionary theory must also be true as a matter of simple logic even before we get to the evidence.

And as a matter of strict logic, they are correct.  The conclusion follows from the premises.  The argument is valid.  But what materialist fundamentalists never stop to ask is whether the argument is also sound.  Is that crucial premise “metaphysical materialism is true” a false statement?  There are good reasons to believe that it is, and sometimes it takes someone with a good baloney detector – someone like a lawyer – to clue them in on this.  As astounding as it seems, it is very often the case that materialist evolutionists not only fail to acknowledge an unstated assumption that is absolutely critical to their argument; but also they fail to even know that they’ve made that assumption in the first place and that that assumption might possibly be false.  I can help them understand those things.

Comments
And there you have it Jack, no matter how many time Zach is corrected on a point he thinks if he can just repeat the same lie over and over again that he has somehow, in his twisted reasoning, won the argument. Somebody on UD referred to this dishonest debating tactic as the 'I can still type so I must still have an argument' tactic. :)bornagain
November 16, 2015
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Jack Jones: it’s a fallacy of composition to say what is true of a part is true of the whole. But that's not the argument. If Joe Blow is a liar, some of what he says may be false. Some of what he says may be true. But what you can say is that you can't rely upon what Joe Blow says. Jack Jones: You can accept part of what somebody says without having to accept the spin for that they have admitted. Bornagain said Koonin was being dishonest with the science, not merely wrong. Do you think Koonin would reject the branching descent of theropods, for instance?Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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"Disregarding what a liar says is not a fallacy of composition." it's a fallacy of composition to say what is true of a part is true of the whole. Because you accept Koonin's spin does not mean that Born has to. You can accept part of what somebody says without having to accept the spin for that they have admitted. You claim otherwise but it is a non sequitur. Your conclusion does not follow.Jack Jones
November 16, 2015
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@88 Born "Zach, baby put that thing on spin cycle you shameless liar." You get more spin from Zach than a Laundromat.Jack Jones
November 16, 2015
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No Zach, it is just YOU, all by your lonesome, that is purposely lying about the sequence data. Jon Lovitz Appears as the Pathological Liar on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkYNBwCEeH4bornagain
November 16, 2015
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Jack Jones: “The fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part).” Disregarding what a liar says is not a fallacy of composition. What the liar says may be true, or it may be false, but the utterance itself is not convincing. Bornagain made an appeal to authority. Because Koonin said something, it must be true, and those that disagree with him must be wrong, unless, of course, they disagree with bornagain, in which case they are lying.Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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Zach, baby put that thing on spin cycle you shameless liar. http://ryanpolly.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/spincyclestuck.jpgbornagain
November 16, 2015
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bornagain: I’m satisfied that it is perfectly clear to unbiased readers exactly what I meant with Koonin. You were clearly relying on Koonin as authoritative. Let's try this:
Joe Blow: The relationships between major groups within an emergent new class of biological entities are hard to decipher and do not seem to fit the tree pattern that, following Darwin’s original proposal, remains the dominant description of biological evolution.
Just doesn't have the same panache, does it? An appeal to authority is only valid if it represents a consensus in the field. Note that Joe Blow Koonin makes clear that the dominant description is still the tree pattern, and that his is a tentative hypothesis. What you haven't done is actually discuss the evidence, which would raise your argument beyond an appeal to authority.Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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"And in the same talk, he discusses standard branching patterns. Do you have more from Venter than an off-hand comment? " it's not an offhand comment, he dismissed that there is a tree. "The tree of life is an artifact of some early scientific studies that aren't really holding up...So there is not a tree of life." "Dawkins is Flabbergasted Fast forward to 11:23, when moderator Roger Bingham turns the microphone over to Dawkins: "I'm intrigued," replies Dawkins, "at Craig saying that the tree of life is a fiction. I mean...the DNA code of all creatures that have ever been looked at is all but identical." WHOPPER. Venter just told the forum that Mycoplasma read their DNA using a different coding convention than other organisms (for "stop" and tryptophan). But Dawkins is undaunted: "Surely that means," he asks Venter, "that they're all related? Doesn't it?" As nearly as we can tell from the video, Venter only smiles." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXrYhINutuI Here is the whole video and I have seen it in the past, nothing was taken out of context. http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/the-great-debate-what-is-life/what-is-life-panel "Bornagain cited Koonin as authoritative while saying he was dishonest. The latter undermines the former." No it does not follow, To say that you have to accept all of something because you accept some part as true is the fallacy of composition. "The fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part)." This was Will Provine on the tree. “every assertion of the evolutionary synthesis below is false“: 10. Evolution is a process of sharing common ancestors back to the origin of life, or in other words, evolution produces a tree of life. William Provine, Random Drift and the Evolutionary Synthesis, History of Science Society HSS Abstracts. Provine said it was false and still, he remained an Evolutionist. Tree of life or no Tree of life, The philosophy of evolution will accommodate it.Jack Jones
November 16, 2015
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It is interesting to note why Dawkins almost had a cow when Venter denied common descent in front of him:
Venter vs. Dawkins on the Tree of Life – and Another Dawkins Whopper – March 2011 Excerpt:,,, But first, let’s look at the reason Dawkins gives for why the code must be universal: “The reason is interesting. Any mutation in the genetic code itself (as opposed to mutations in the genes that it encodes) would have an instantly catastrophic effect, not just in one place but throughout the whole organism. If any word in the 64-word dictionary changed its meaning, so that it came to specify a different amino acid, just about every protein in the body would instantaneously change, probably in many places along its length. Unlike an ordinary mutation…this would spell disaster.” (2009, p. 409-10) OK. Keep Dawkins’ claim of universality in mind, along with his argument for why the code must be universal, and then go here (linked site listing 23 variants of the genetic code). Simple counting question: does “one or two” equal 23? That’s the number of known variant genetic codes compiled by the National Center for Biotechnology Information. By any measure, Dawkins is off by an order of magnitude, times a factor of two. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/03/venter_vs_dawkins_on_the_tree_044681.html
The bottom line is that if any code is ‘randomly changed’ in part, it throws a huge monkey wrench into the code and will be ‘instantly catastrophic’, to use Richard Dawkins most appropriate term, to the species thus rendering gradual change to the code impossible. In other words, the entire code must be implemented ‘top down’! Please note, this is not randomly changing sequences within the code that we are talking about, this is talking about making changes to a code itself. The reason I bring this 'non-evolvability' of codes up is because of alternative splicing codes. Namely, alternative splicing codes are now found to be ‘species-specific’. The 'species-specific' alternative splicing code: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UMbNM8V2b7mRzPJt05mlev3UO4SG1bMTV5wkNunezjY/edit Excerpted references:
Thirdly, the alternative splicing code is 'species specific'
Canadian Team Develops Alternative Splicing Code from Mouse Tissue Data Excerpt: “Our method takes as an input a collection of exons and surrounding intron sequences and data profiling how those exons are spliced in different tissues,” Frey and his co-authors wrote. “The method assembles a code that can predict how a transcript will be spliced in different tissues.” http://www.genomeweb.com/informatics/canadian-team-develops-alternative-splicing-code-mouse-tissue-data
And yet these supposed 'junk intron sequences', that Darwinists use to ignore, that were used to decipher the splicing code of different tissue types in an organism, are found to be exceptionally different between chimpanzees and Humans:
Modern origin of numerous alternatively spliced human introns from tandem arrays – 2006 Excerpt: A comparison with orthologous regions in mouse and chimpanzee suggests a young age for the human introns with the most-similar boundaries. Finally, we show that these human introns are alternatively spliced with exceptionally high frequency. http://www.pnas.org/content/104/3/882.full Characterization and potential functional significance of human-chimpanzee large INDEL variation - October 2011 Excerpt:,,, we categorized human-chimpanzee INDEL (Insertion, Deletion) variation mapping in or around genes and determined whether this variation is significantly correlated with previously determined differences in gene expression. Results: Extensive, large INDEL (Insertion, Deletion) variation exists between the human and chimpanzee genomes. This variation is primarily attributable to retrotransposon insertions within the human lineage. There is a significant correlation between differences in gene expression and large human-chimpanzee INDEL variation mapping in genes or in proximity to them. http://www.mobilednajournal.com/content/pdf/1759-8753-2-13.pdf
Jonathan Wells comments on the fallacious 'Darwinian Logic', within the preceding paper, that falsely tried to attribute the major differences that were found in INDEL variation to unguided Darwinian processes:
Darwinian Logic: The Latest on Chimp and Human DNA – Jonathan Wells - October 2011 Excerpt: Protein-coding regions of DNA in chimps and humans are remarkably similar -- 98%, by many estimates -- and this similarity has been used as evidence that the two species are descended from a common ancestor. Yet chimps and humans are very different anatomically and behaviorally, and even thirty years ago some biologists were speculating that those differences might be due to non-protein-coding regions, which make up about 98% of chimp and human DNA. (In other words, the 98% similarity refers to only 2% of the genome.) Now a research team headed by John F. McDonald at Georgia Tech has published evidence that large segments of non-protein-coding DNA differ significantly between chimps and humans,,,, If the striking similarities in protein-coding DNA point to the common ancestry of chimps and humans, why don’t dissimilarities in the much more abundant non-protein-coding DNA point to their separate origins? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/the_latest_on_chimp_and_human052291.html
This following, more recent, paper also found that Alternative Splicing patterns to be 'species specific':
Evolution by Splicing - Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. - Ruth Williams - December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view%2FarticleNo%2F33782%2Ftitle%2FEvolution-by-Splicing%2F Gene Regulation Differences Between Humans, Chimpanzees Very Complex – Oct. 17, 2013 Excerpt: Although humans and chimpanzees share,, similar genomes, previous studies have shown that the species evolved major differences in mRNA (messenger RNA) expression levels.,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131017144632.htm ,,,Alternative splicing,,, may contribute to species differences - December 21, 2012 Excerpt: After analyzing vast amounts of genetic data, the researchers found that the same genes are expressed in the same tissue types, such as liver or heart, across mammalian species. However, alternative splicing patterns—which determine the segments of those genes included or excluded—vary from species to species.,,, The results from the alternative splicing pattern comparison were very different. Instead of clustering by tissue, the patterns clustered mostly by species. "Different tissues from the cow look more like the other cow tissues, in terms of splicing, than they do like the corresponding tissue in mouse or rat or rhesus," Burge says. Because splicing patterns are more specific to each species, it appears that splicing may contribute preferentially to differences between those species, Burge says,,, Excerpt of Abstract: To assess tissue-specific transcriptome variation across mammals, we sequenced complementary DNA from nine tissues from four mammals and one bird in biological triplicate, at unprecedented depth. We find that while tissue-specific gene expression programs are largely conserved, alternative splicing is well conserved in only a subset of tissues and is frequently lineage-specific. Thousands of previously unknown, lineage-specific, and conserved alternative exons were identified; http://phys.org/news/2012-12-evolution-alternative-splicing-rna-rewires.html
bornagain
November 16, 2015
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Zachriel, I rest my case. I'm satisfied that it is perfectly clear to unbiased readers exactly what I meant with Koonin. And that it also perfectly clear you are doing your dishonest best to spin it.bornagain
November 16, 2015
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Jack Jones: Venter said there is no tree and not a bush of life, he said it was a false idea. And in the same talk, he discusses standard branching patterns. Do you have more from Venter than an off-hand comment? Jack Jones: So, You can accept part of what somebody says without having to accept all of it, to say that Born has to accept the whole and cannot accept a part of what is said, is the fallacy of composition Bornagain cited Koonin as authoritative while saying he was dishonest. The latter undermines the former.Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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"Venter called it a bush. It’s branched trees that become tangled near the trunk. Koonin hypothesizes that this is because there are two types of cladogenesis." Venter said there is no tree and not a bush of life, he said it was a false idea. He didn't say some parts are tree like and others are not, he rejected a tree outright. "The tree structure for eukaryotes doesn’t go away because of a stray or out of context quote." And when evolutionists fail in argumentation they lie and claim something is out of context. People can see the video for themselves of Venter saying there is no tree, not that some parts are not tree like, he rejected that there is a tree and said you could say there is a bush of life. "Because it was an overstatement. There are multiple branching trees which appear to converge. The question is how they connect, and whether they show the same branching pattern or not. However, the individual branches are still trees." Provine said there is no tree pattern, he said the idea of all life going back to one orgin producing a tree pattern is a failed prediction of the modern synthesis. "Bornagain wants to refer to Koonin’s authority when he agrees with bornagain, and wants to reject Koonin’s authority as dishonest when he disagrees with bornagain." So, You can accept part of what somebody says without having to accept all of it, to say that Born has to accept the whole and cannot accept a part of what is said, is the fallacy of composition, because Koonin may have been partially honest does not mean that he was not spinning later on. If you accept a part then you do not have to accept the whole. Because Born accepts that Koonin admitted one thing truthfully does not mean that he has to accept the spin on that truth afterwards. Koonin can admit what the data shows and then try and spin away the problem, there is no contradiction in pointing that out.Jack Jones
November 16, 2015
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Zachriel, I made perfectly clear my distinction with Koonin. That you would try spin that clear distinction is yet another evidence of your inherent dishonesty. Then you claim 'You haven’t referred to the evidence,' which is yet another outright lie. I, in fact, referred to several papers after Koonin's paper that go further than Koonin did in saying the tree does not exist. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/can-a-lowly-lawyer-make-a-useful-contribution-maybe/#comment-588281 Then you say Koonin infers 'dinosaurs still form a branching pattern, as do hominids.' So what? I was not even contesting that point at this time! I was contesting your original fraudulent claim: ‘The overall pattern is congruent’ That claim you originally made is false! And you are a liar for making it and for not apologizing for making it.bornagain
November 16, 2015
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Jack Jones: Venter didn’t say that the tree wasn’t perfect when talking about Darwin’s tree of life. Venter called it a bush. It's branched trees that become tangled near the trunk. Koonin hypothesizes that this is because there are two types of cladogenesis. Jack Jones: He said there is no tree not that it is imperfect The tree structure for eukaryotes doesn't go away because of a stray or out of context quote. Jack Jones: Dawkins was flabbergasted at Venter’s claim of no tree pattern. Because it was an overstatement. There are multiple branching trees which appear to converge. The question is how they connect, and whether they show the same branching pattern or not. However, the individual branches are still trees. Jack Jones: I explained to you Born’s words in context Bornagain wants to refer to Koonin's authority when he agrees with bornagain, and wants to reject Koonin's authority as dishonest when he disagrees with bornagain. bornagain: That claim is an outright LIE to the evidence in hand! You haven't referred to the evidence, but a hypothesis proposed by Koonin. Please note that Koonin makes clear where he thinks the standard branching pattern breaks down. So dinosaurs still form a branching pattern, as do hominids.Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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Zachriel, I made clear my distinction where I disagreed with Koonin, i.e. when he went beyond the evidence to try to 'explain away' the incongruent data, I considered that intellectually 'dishonest'. That level of 'dishonesty' is somewhat understandable since he was trying to, however inadequately, give a naturalistic reason for the incongruent sequence data. But that level of minor 'intellectual dishonesty' is nothing compared to the purposeful deception that you were originally trying to convey, i.e. ‘The overall pattern is congruent’. That claim you made is an outright LIE to the evidence in hand! And you are a liar for repeatedly making that claim as I have seen you do in the past. There is nothing understandable or minor about the lie you are telling and refuse to admit you are wrong on. At least Koonin, in his honesty, willingly admitted the data is incongruent. I have seen, and expect, no such honesty coming from you. Of related note, Koonin, though not an ID proponent, readily admits that neo-Darwinism is false. In fact, he is one of the founding members of Shapiro's "The Third Way"
"The summary of the state of affairs on the 150th anniversary of the Origin is somewhat shocking: in the post-genomic era, all major tenets of the Modern Synthesis are, if not outright overturned, replaced by a new and incomparably more complex vision of the key aspects of evolution. So, not to mince words, the Modern Synthesis is gone. " Koonin (The Origin at 150: is a new evolutionary synthesis in sight? Trends Genet. Nov 2009; 25(11): 473–475) http://www.thethirdwayofevolution.com/people/view/eugene-koonin
bornagain
November 16, 2015
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Zach in his reply said "Darwin knew the tree wasn’t perfect" You sound like a politician spinning zach. Venter didn't say that the tree wasn't perfect when talking about Darwin's tree of life. He said there is no tree not that it is imperfect, if it was just an imperfect tree then he wouldn't need to throw the whole idea out and say there is a bush pattern. A bush does not show the linear pattern but evolutionists can come up with all kinds of reasons, hgt, convergent evolution etc to excuse the pattern away. The philosophy will allow any pattern. Dawkins was flabbergasted at Venter's claim of no tree pattern. Provine said that it was a false prediction of the modern synthesis of there being a tree. It was one of the reasons that he rejected the modern synthesis. "You’ve already said Koonin is dishonest, so not sure why you keep referring to his opinion." Zach, the person that is showing his dishonesty here with your spinning like a politician is yourself. I explained to you Born's words in context and you are doubling down and still misrepresenting him.Jack Jones
November 16, 2015
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Jack Jones: Craig Venter said there is no tree but a bush and yet he is still an Evolutionist. Darwin knew the tree wasn't perfect, so pointing out that the tree isn't perfect doesn't undermine evolutionary theory. Venter accepts the standard branching up to the origin of domains. Before then, horizontal mechanisms may have held sway. bornagain: Koonin on where the divisions are... You've already said Koonin is dishonest, so not sure why you keep referring to his opinion.Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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Zach tries to spin and lie again and again: Zach's original fraudulent claim that he never acknowledged was wrong:
“Huh? The very reason to use the tree as an example is because we can watch it grow over time.” & “The overall pattern is congruent.”
Koonin:
Koonin: Here, I argue for a fundamentally different solution, i.e., that a single, uninterrupted TOL does not exist, although the evolution of large divisions of life for extended time intervals can be adequately described by trees
Koonin on where the divisions are
The Biological Big Bang model for the major transitions in evolution – Eugene V Koonin – Background: “Major transitions in biological evolution show the same pattern of sudden emergence of diverse forms at a new level of complexity. The relationships between major groups within an emergent new class of biological entities are hard to decipher and do not seem to fit the tree pattern that, following Darwin’s original proposal, remains the dominant description of biological evolution. The cases in point include the origin of complex RNA molecules and protein folds; major groups of viruses; archaea and bacteria, and the principal lineages within each of these prokaryotic domains; eukaryotic supergroups; and animal phyla. In each of these pivotal nexuses in life’s history, the principal “types” seem to appear rapidly and fully equipped with the signature features of the respective new level of biological organization. No intermediate “grades” or intermediate forms between different types are detectable; http://www.biology-direct.com/content/2/1/21
Zach's original fraudulent claim, even by the cherry picked quote he used, is shown to be false. I rest my case, Zach LIED when he said the 'The overall pattern is congruent'. Moreover, he refuses to admit that he was wrong on his claim and is thus now shown, by that refusal, to be pathologically dishonest in regards to the evidence in hand. i.e. "denialism"bornagain
November 16, 2015
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Zach "Koonin stated that the tree structure holds for most taxa. That’s not spin, nor is it a negligible finding." Craig Venter said there is no tree but a bush and yet he is still an Evolutionist. Will Provine came out against the idea of there being a tree pattern. Evolutionists can agree or disagree whether there is a tree pattern and it does not hurt the philosophy of evolution one jot, they will accommodate any pattern. The philosophy of Evolution will accommodate any pattern, a tree, a web or a bush etc, It makes no difference to an evolutionist. That is why it is pointless of evolutionists trying to claim that any pattern supports their position, They will accommodate any pattern within the Philosophy of evolution.Jack Jones
November 16, 2015
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Jack Jones: An evolutionist could honestly admit something about the data but then still try and dishonestly spin away the data afterwards. Koonin stated that the tree structure holds for most taxa. That's not spin, nor is it a negligible finding.Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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Zach, You are missing the point of what Born is saying. An evolutionist could honestly admit something about the data but then still try and dishonestly spin away the data afterwards. The second point does not negate the first point. Why are you having problems understanding that?Jack Jones
November 16, 2015
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bornagain: Koonin’s 2007 observation of the incongruent sequence data You didn't point to the data, but to Koonin's interpretation of the data. He didn't provide any novel empirical observations in the paper, and you already said he was dishonest.Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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Zachriel, I hold no man in science to be 'authoritative' but hold the empirical evidence itself to have the final word. i.e. Koonin's 2007 observation of the incongruent sequence data (like the latter 2009 and 2012 papers I cited) is, I hold, accurate to the empirical evidence. His attempt to explain it away is what is clearly lacking in empirical support and is thus what lacks 'authority'.
The Scientific Method - Richard Feynman - video Quote: 'If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are who made the guess, or what his name is… If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL6-x0modwY Experimental Evolution in Fruit Flies (35 years of trying to force fruit flies to evolve in the laboratory fails, spectacularly) – October 2010 Excerpt: “Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles.,,, “This research really upends the dominant paradigm about how species evolve,” said ecology and evolutionary biology professor Anthony Long, the primary investigator. http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2010/10/07/experimental_evolution_in_fruit_flies
bornagain
November 16, 2015
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Andre,
The prevailing views by the authors you list all stems from the Darwin family views in the Victorian era.
? The prevailing view of the western world that humanity is comprised of unrelated species separately created by God, with some races created to be slaves, came from "Darwin family views"?goodusername
November 16, 2015
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bornagain, Try to deal with one citation at a time. So if Koonin is dishonest, why are you citing him as authoritative?Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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Zachriel, repeating a lie does not suddenly make it true:
Why Darwin was wrong about the (genetic) tree of life: – 21 January 2009 Excerpt: Syvanen recently compared 2000 genes that are common to humans, frogs, sea squirts, sea urchins, fruit flies and nematodes. In theory, he should have been able to use the gene sequences to construct an evolutionary tree showing the relationships between the six animals. He failed. The problem was that different genes told contradictory evolutionary stories. This was especially true of sea-squirt genes. Conventionally, sea squirts – also known as tunicates – are lumped together with frogs, humans and other vertebrates in the phylum Chordata, but the genes were sending mixed signals. Some genes did indeed cluster within the chordates, but others indicated that tunicates should be placed with sea urchins, which aren’t chordates. “Roughly 50 per cent of its genes have one evolutionary history and 50 per cent another,” Syvanen says. .”We’ve just annihilated the tree of life. It’s not a tree any more, it’s a different topology entirely,” says Syvanen. “What would Darwin have made of that?” per new scientist Phylogeny: Rewriting evolution – Tiny molecules called microRNAs are tearing apart traditional ideas about the animal family tree. – Elie Dolgin – 27 June 2012 Excerpt: “I’ve looked at thousands of microRNA genes, and I can’t find a single example that would support the traditional tree,” he says. “…they give a totally different tree from what everyone else wants.” (Phylogeny: Rewriting evolution, Nature 486,460–462, 28 June 2012) (molecular palaeobiologist – Kevin Peterson) Mark Springer, (a molecular phylogeneticist working in DNA states),,, “There have to be other explanations,” he says. Peterson and his team are now going back to mammalian genomes to investigate why DNA and microRNAs give such different evolutionary trajectories. “What we know at this stage is that we do have a very serious incongruence,” says Davide Pisani, a phylogeneticist at the National University of Ireland in Maynooth, who is collaborating on the project. “It looks like either the mammal microRNAs evolved in a totally different way or the traditional topology is wrong. per Nature
bornagain
November 16, 2015
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bornagain: Moreover, I do not accept his, nor any other Darwinist’s dishonest attempt to ‘explain away’ So if Koonin is dishonest, why are you citing him as authoritative? bornagain: I quoted Koonin to expose you as a liar about the tree being congruent’. The phenetic and genomic trees are largely congruent across most taxa — as Koonin states.Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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Zacheriel, I quoted Koonin to expose you as a liar about the tree being congruent'. That was your claim. Your claim was shown to be false. You do not concede the point. Ergo, you are a liar! i.e. Calling you a liar is not an insult but is, in fact, merely a statement of fact. I can't help it that you do not like that fact. Perhaps, if you do not like it, you should 'evolve' into being honest towards the evidence instead of being a liar? Moreover, I do not accept his, nor any other Darwinist's dishonest attempt to 'explain away' the incongruences in molecular data and hold that the incongruences, which are rampant, to be yet another falsification of Darwinism than merely an anomaly as Koonin treats them. (By the way, do you like Koonin's many worlds model which sought to 'explain away' the OOL?) :) You simply have no real time empirical evidence to explain, by unguided material processes, such dramatic jumps in the genetic Data (jumps which are pervasive in the data)
"Charles Darwin said (paraphrase), 'If anyone could find anything that could not be had through a number of slight, successive, modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.' Well that condition has been met time and time again. Basically every gene, every protein fold. There is nothing of significance that we can show that can be had in a gradualist way. It's a mirage. None of it happens that way. - Doug Axe PhD. Nothing In Molecular Biology Is Gradual - Doug Axe PhD. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5347797/
bornagain
November 16, 2015
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Case in point @61. Instead of responding to our comments, bornagain hurls insults, waves his hands, and spews more links.
The relationships between major groups within an emergent new class of biological entities are hard to decipher and do not seem to fit the tree pattern
That doesn't mean there is no tree signal. It means that there are multiple trees converging, but that the point of convergence is not simple monophyly.
Koonin: Here, I argue for a fundamentally different solution, i.e., that a single, uninterrupted TOL does not exist, although the evolution of large divisions of life for extended time intervals can be adequately described by trees {emphasis added}.
However, let's be clear. Do you support Koonin's hypothesis? That life evolved from common ancestors through two modes of cladogenesis?Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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