Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Can a Lowly Lawyer Make a Useful Contribution?  Maybe.

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Dr. Moran has asked me to respond to some technical questions over at Sandwalk.  When I started writing this response I intended to put it in his combox.  Then I realized there is a lot in it that is relevant to our work at UD.  So I will put it here and link to it there.

Dr. Moran, before I answer your technical questions, allow me to make one thing perfectly clear.  I am not a scientist, much less a biologist.  I am an attorney, and being an attorney has some pluses and some minuses insofar as participating in the evolution debate goes.  Like many people in the last 25 years, I was inspired to become involved in this debate by Phillip E. Johnson’s “Darwin on Trial.”  Johnson is also an attorney, and he said this about what an attorney can bring to bear:

I approach the creation-evolution dispute not as a scientist but as a professor of law, which means among other things that I know something about the ways that words are used in arguments. . . . I am not a scientist but an academic lawyer by profession, with a specialty in analyzing the logic of arguments and identifying the assumptions that lie behind those arguments.  This background is more appropriate than one might think, because what people believe about evolution and Darwinism depends very heavily on the kind of logic they employ and the kind of assumptions they make.

Johnson is saying that attorneys are trained to detect baloney.  And that training is very helpful in the evolution debate, because that debate is chock-full of faulty logic (especially circular reasoning), abuse of language (especially equivocations), assumptions masquerading as facts, unexamined premises, etc. etc.

Consider, to take one example of many, cladistics.  It does not take a genius to know that cladistic techniques do not establish common descent; rather they assume it.  But I bet if one asked, 9 out of 10 materialist evolutionists, even the trained scientists among them, would tell you that cladistics is powerful evidence for common descent.  As Johnson argues, a lawyer’s training may help him understand when faulty arguments are being made, sometimes even better than those with a far superior grasp of the technical aspects of the field.  This is not to say that common descent is necessarily false; only cladistics does not establish the matter one way or the other.

In summary, I am trained to evaluate arguments by stripping them down to examine the meaning of the terms used, exposing the underlying assumptions, and following the logic (or, as is often the case, exposing the lack of logic).  And I think I do a pretty fair job of that, both in my legal practice and here at UD.

Now to the minuses.  I do not claim personally to be able to evaluate technical scientific questions.  Like the vast majority of people, I rely on the secondary literature, which, by and large, is accessible to a layman such as myself.  When it comes to independent analysis of technical scientific questions, I have nothing useful to say.

Back to our cladistics example.  I have a very general understanding of how clads are made and what they mean.  But I do not claim to be an expert in the technical issues that arise in the field.  Of course, that is not an obstacle to spotting a faulty argument about cladistics, as I explained above.

Digging deeper – to the fundamental core of the matter – my baloney detector allows me to spot metaphysical assumptions masquerading as scientific “facts.”  This is especially useful in the evolution debate, because – to use KF’s winsome turn of phrase – evolutionists love to cloak their metaphysical commitments in the holy lab coat.

Consider the following claim:  Evolution is a fact.

Yes it is, and it most certainly is not, depending on what one means by the word “evolution.”  If all you mean is that living things were different in the past than they are now, then sure.  Even YEC’s believe that.  But if you mean that modern materialist evolutionary theory has been proven to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold consent, then the statement is absolutely not a fact.  Even materialist evolutionists dispute such vital issues as the relative importance of natural selection.  This is quite aside from the fact that many people (especially ID proponents) do not believe the theory is even plausible, far less unassailable.

Yet I can’t tell you how many times I have caught materialists in this very equivocation.  I do not believe that materialists are always being intentionally misleading when they say this.  Some are but not all.  Those in the latter group have a commitment to materialist metaphysics that is so strong that they often cannot tell where their metaphysics ends and their empirical observations begin.  A person who allows his materialist metaphysical commitments to blind him, may truly believe that the mere fact that living things are different now than they were in the past is, on its face, evidence for materialist evolutionary theory.  Why?  Because if materialism is true, then materialist evolutionary theory must also be true as a matter of simple logic even before we get to the evidence.

And as a matter of strict logic, they are correct.  The conclusion follows from the premises.  The argument is valid.  But what materialist fundamentalists never stop to ask is whether the argument is also sound.  Is that crucial premise “metaphysical materialism is true” a false statement?  There are good reasons to believe that it is, and sometimes it takes someone with a good baloney detector – someone like a lawyer – to clue them in on this.  As astounding as it seems, it is very often the case that materialist evolutionists not only fail to acknowledge an unstated assumption that is absolutely critical to their argument; but also they fail to even know that they’ve made that assumption in the first place and that that assumption might possibly be false.  I can help them understand those things.

Comments
The Very Neutral Kenneth Miller - Michael Behe - January 15, 2015 Excerpt: But is there any direct, positive, experimental evidence indicating whether a single, uncompensated K76T mutation is deleterious or neutral? Yes, there is. As I wrote earlier, to see if a mutation is harmful by itself, at the very least you have to test it without any other mutations present in the relevant organism. Lakshmanan et al. did this carefully in the lab in 2005:,,, Miller's claim that the individual mutation is neutral is wrong. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/01/the_very_neutra092721.html The Many Paths of Kenneth Miller - Michael Behe - January 16, 2015 Excerpt: Suppose you were given a choice of a billion trillion roads to travel, but were told that only one of them led to safety; the others all led to certain death. You would likely feel pretty pessimistic about your chances.,,, The number of 1 in 10^20 against developing chloroquine resistance comes from estimating the number of malaria cells without resistance that it takes to produce and select one with resistance, no matter what genetic route is taken. So the number of routes that Miller emphasizes turns out to have no effect at all on the statistical likelihood of developing chloroquine resistance. Each route itself is actually less likely than the cumulative probability. All of the routes together add up to only 1 in 10^20. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/01/the_many_paths092761.html "The number I cite, one parasite in every 10^20 for de novo chloroquine resistance, is not a probability calculation. Rather, it is a statistic, a result, a data point. (Furthermore, it is not my number, but that of the eminent malariologist Nicholas White.) I do not assume that “adaptation cannot occur one mutation at a time”; I assume nothing at all. I am simply looking at the results. The malaria parasite was free to do whatever it could in nature; to evolve resistance, or outcompete its fellow parasites, by whatever evolutionary pathway was available in the wild. Neither I nor anyone else were manipulating the results. What we see when we look at chloroquine-resistant malaria is pristine data — it is the best that random mutation plus selection was able to accomplish in the wild in 10^20 tries." Michael Behe How Many Ways Are There to Win at Sandwalk? - Michael Behe - August 15, 2014 Excerpt: ,, with chloroquine resistance in Plasmodium falciparum. The best current statistical estimate of the frequency of de novo resistance is Nicholas White's value of 1 in 10^20 parasites. That number is now essentially fixed -- no pathway to resistance will be found that is substantially more probable than that. Although with more data the value may be refined up or down by even as much as one or two orders of magnitude (to between 1 in 10^18-10^22), it's not going very far on a log scale. Not nearly far enough to lift the shadow from Darwinism. What's more, we can also conclude that the mutations that have already been found are the most effective available of any combination of mutations whose joint probability is greater than 1 in 10^20, since more effective alternatives would already have occurred and been selected if they were available.,,, The bottom line for all of them is that the acquisition of chloroquine resistance is an event of statistical probability 1 in 10^20.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/08/how_many_ways_a088981.html
Supplemental notes:
Thou Shalt Not Put Evolutionary Theory to a Test - Douglas Axe - July 18, 2012 Excerpt: "For example, McBride criticizes me for not mentioning genetic drift in my discussion of human origins, apparently without realizing that the result of Durrett and Schmidt rules drift out. Each and every specific genetic change needed to produce humans from apes would have to have conferred a significant selective advantage in order for humans to have appeared in the available time (i.e. the mutations cannot be 'neutral'). Any aspect of the transition that requires two or more mutations to act in combination in order to increase fitness would take way too long (greater than 100 million years). My challenge to McBride, and everyone else who believes the evolutionary story of human origins, is not to provide the list of mutations that (they think) did the trick, but rather a list of mutations that (actually) can do it. Otherwise they're in the position of insisting that something is a scientific fact without having the faintest idea how it even could be." Doug Axe PhD. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/thou_shalt_not062351.html "Lynch and Abegg assumed [in their paper] that organisms will acquire a given complex adaptation by traversing a direct path to the new anatomical structure. Each mutation would build on the previous one in the most efficient manner possible – with no setbacks, false starts, aimless wandering, or genetic degradation – until the desired structure or system (or gene) is constructed. Thus, they formulated an undirected model of evolutionary change, and one that assumes, moreover, that there is no mechanism available (such as natural selection) that can lock in potentially favorable mutational changes on the way to some complex advantageous structure…. Yet nothing in Lynch’s neutral model ensures that potentially advantageous mutations will remain in place while other mutations accrue. As Axe explains [in his reply to Lynch], “Productive changes cannot be ‘banked,’ whereas Equation 2 [one of Lynch’s equations] presupposes that they can.” Instead, Axe shows, mathematically, that degradation (the fixation of mutational changes that make the complex adaptation less likely to arise) will occur much more rapidly than constructive mutations, causing the expected waiting time to increase exponentially." Stephen Meyer - Darwin”s Doubt (Harper One, 2013, p. 328, square brackets mine – VJT) Stephen Meyer on the inadequacy of neutral theory. [S.Meyer, ch.16, ‘Darwin’s Doubt’] https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/if-it-is-a-fact-fact-fact-how-can-the-facts-change/#comment-587770
Moreover, the development of neutral theory (and junk DNA) are actually the result of a theoretical failure of Darwinian theory within mathematics and is not the result of any compelling empirical observation:
Haldane's Dilemma Excerpt: Haldane was the first to recognize there was a cost to selection which limited what it realistically could be expected to do. He did not fully realize that his thinking would create major problems for evolutionary theory. He calculated that in man it would take 6 million years to fix just 1,000 mutations (assuming 20 years per generation).,,, Man and chimp differ by at least 150 million nucleotides representing at least 40 million hypothetical mutations (Britten, 2002). So if man evolved from a chimp-like creature, then during that process there were at least 20 million mutations fixed within the human lineage (40 million divided by 2), yet natural selection could only have selected for 1,000 of those. All the rest would have had to been fixed by random drift - creating millions of nearly-neutral deleterious mutations. This would not just have made us inferior to our chimp-like ancestors - it surely would have killed us. Since Haldane's dilemma there have been a number of efforts to sweep the problem under the rug, but the problem is still exactly the same. ReMine (1993, 2005) has extensively reviewed the problem, and has analyzed it using an entirely different mathematical formulation - but has obtained identical results. John Sanford PhD. - "Genetic Entropy and The Mystery of the Genome" - pg. 159-160 Kimura's Quandary Excerpt: Kimura realized that Haldane was correct,,, He developed his neutral theory in response to this overwhelming evolutionary problem. Paradoxically, his theory led him to believe that most mutations are unselectable, and therefore,,, most 'evolution' must be independent of selection! Because he was totally committed to the primary axiom (neo-Darwinism), Kimura apparently never considered his cost arguments could most rationally be used to argue against the Axiom's (neo-Darwinism's) very validity. John Sanford PhD. - "Genetic Entropy and The Mystery of the Genome" - pg. 161 - 162 Kimura (1968) developed the idea of “Neutral Evolution”. If “Haldane’s Dilemma” is correct, the majority of DNA must be non-functional. – Sanford Majestic Ascent: Berlinski on Darwin on Trial - David Berlinski - November 2011 Excerpt: The publication in 1983 of Motoo Kimura's The Neutral Theory of Molecular Evolution consolidated ideas that Kimura had introduced in the late 1960s. On the molecular level, evolution is entirely stochastic, and if it proceeds at all, it proceeds by drift along a leaves-and-current model. Kimura's theories left the emergence of complex biological structures an enigma, but they played an important role in the local economy of belief. They allowed biologists to affirm that they welcomed responsible criticism. "A critique of neo-Darwinism," the Dutch biologist Gert Korthof boasted, "can be incorporated into neo-Darwinism if there is evidence and a good theory, which contributes to the progress of science." By this standard, if the Archangel Gabriel were to accept personal responsibility for the Cambrian explosion, his views would be widely described as neo-Darwinian. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/11/berlinski_on_darwin_on_trial053171.html
bornagain
November 15, 2015
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Zachriel: "Box: Gradual evolution predicts a smooth blending of traits and therefore does not predict a nested hierarchy. Trees grow gradually, but the leaves still form a nested hierarchy when grouped by branch and stem." Despite any point you think you are effectively making, we can observe the growth and the parts of an actual tree, from the tips of the leaves to the limbs to the branches to the tree trunk down to the roots. No need to make any assumptions there.bpragmatic
November 15, 2015
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Barry Arrington says,
In summary, I am trained to evaluate arguments by stripping them down to examine the meaning of the terms used, exposing the underlying assumptions, and following the logic (or, as is often the case, exposing the lack of logic). And I think I do a pretty fair job of that, both in my legal practice and here at UD.
Barry, one of your readers has linked to the following article ... "Nature" Confirms Creationist Rejection of Junk DNA Can you use your training to expose the underlying assumptions and the lack of logic in that article? Or you you think it's an accurate portrayal of the facts?Larry Moran
November 15, 2015
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Mapou says,
Darwin, a great mind? That’s a laugh. Isaac Newton, Gottfried Leibniz, Rene Descartes, Max Planck were great minds. Darwin was a mental midget in comparison, a moron.
Have you read "Origin of Species" cover-to-cover? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.Larry Moran
November 15, 2015
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Collin says,
I understand that the vast majority of mutations are harmful and that even the mutations that confer an advantage also cause harm. See here at 53:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_XN8s-zXx4
That's a talk by Michael Behe in the lecture room two floors below my office. I was there—you can see him wave to me at 1:25:33 when he says, "... with some caveats due to stochastic effects ..." At 52:10 he says "This is what observations demonstrate about random mutations ... we've known for a long time that of those mutations that affect an organism, about 99% are detrimental." This may or may not be true depending on what he means by "affect an organism." But here's the problem. Many of Behe's arguments about mutation and mutation rates depend on the idea that a mutation must be EITHER beneficial or deleterious. He argues, for example, that more than two mutations were required to get chloroquine resistance in malaria parasites. Since one of the mutations by itself was NOT beneficial (hence, it must have been deleterious) this means that the two (or more) mutations had to occur simultaneously in order for the parasite to develop resistance to chloroquine. Behe argues (in "The Edge of Evolution") that this is possible in Plasmodium falciparum, the malaria parasite, because of its huge population size. It won't be possible in most other species so this is the basis of his argument that there's an "edge" to evolution. In other words, there are some things that random mutation just can't achieve because a pathway requiring multiple mutations doesn't include stepwise increases in fitness with each mutation. When you see things that required multiple mutations, this is evidence for guided mutation. Recent results show clearly that all of the pathways leading to chloroquine resistance involve multiple mutations but that all of them involve sequential mutation events where one of the mutations is neutral. In combination with a second mutation, the combined effect is chloroquine resistance. The intermediate population carrying the first mutation was not a "little bit resistant" and the mutation was not detrimental. It was neutral. Michael Behe's final thoughts on the edge of evolution Behe is misleading you when he says that most mutations are detrimental. Here's what a leading expert in molecular evolution says in his textbook.
The neutral theory of molecular evolution holds that although a small minority of mutations in DNA or protein sequences are advantageous and are fixed by natural selection, and although many mutations are disadvantageous and are eliminated by natural selection, the great majority of those mutations that are fixed are effectively neutral with respect to fitness and are fixed by genetic drift. Douglas Futuyma in "Evolution" 2nd ed. p. 267
If you don't understand modern evolutionary theory, which includes Neutral Theory and random genetic drift, you won't understand why Behe is wrong about the edge of evolution, even if you are a lawyer. You can't detect baloney if you don't understand the subject. Anyone who thinks they can make a contribution to the debate about evolution without investing a lot of time and effort into studying the subject, is fooling himself. He needs to call some expert witnesses to help him out.Larry Moran
November 15, 2015
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"Funny. I have studied Newtonian physics and I have never seen Newtonian gravity theory adapt to fit any evidence." No, it was superceded by the theory of relativity. But Newton's equations are such a good approximation that they are of still practical value.brian douglas
November 15, 2015
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If you mean that the theory of evolution adapts itself to better fit the evidence, you are absolute correct. As does every good scientific theory.
Funny. I have studied Newtonian physics and I have never seen Newtonian gravity theory adapt to fit any evidence. It is still the same old Newtonian gravity theory. In fact, the current failure to find gravitational waves means that Newton was correct in supposing that the effect of gravity is instantaneous and nonlocal instead of traveling at the speed of light as Einstein claimed. Newton is reaching from the grave and falsifying a wildly acclaimed modern theory that came centuries after his death. Now, that's a scientific theory. Darwinian evolution is chicken shit in comparison. Good scientific theories do not adapt. They are either wholly or partially replaced by new theories if found to be deficient.Mapou
November 15, 2015
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Brian Have you ever wondered how evolutioniory theory can explain a round worm, a flat worm, a long worm, a short worm, a fat worm, a skinny worm, a green worm, a brown worm. Don't you wonder? A theory that explains everything explains nothing. Evolution did it is no different than God did it....Andre
November 15, 2015
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For someone who has been elevated to divine status by atheists and materialists, Darwin seemed to have had a surprisingly intimate knowledge and understanding of God's mind and intentions. But the truth is simpler than all that. Darwin was a mental midget and his followers and admirers are even bigger morons.Mapou
November 15, 2015
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Joe: "The Philosophy of evolution accommodates whatever is found." Do you have an argument or just an unsupported ascertain? If you mean that the theory of evolution adapts itself to better fit the evidence, you are absolute correct. As does every good scientific theory. Or are you going to claim that there is no theory of evution and demand that we link to it?brian douglas
November 15, 2015
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Apparently it was from 1998, they play a clip of it. http://kgov.com/journal-nature-junk-dna-not-junk-bob-enyart-vs-eugenie-scottJack Jones
November 15, 2015
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It was about the junk dna idea, She was pretty firm about it, i think it was from 2001. She is a darwinist is she not? I will try and dig it up for ya.Jack Jones
November 15, 2015
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Born, did you ever hear the radio debate that Bob Enyart had with Eugenie Scott? not yet, thanks for pointing it out. Bob Enyart has commented on UD once or twice that I know of.bornagain
November 15, 2015
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@19 Born It is the same when William lane Craig debated Ayala about Darwinism and Ayala wanted to talk theological arguments against God while Craig wanted to talk about what the Darwinian processes were or were not capable of.Jack Jones
November 15, 2015
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Born, did you ever hear the radio debate that Bob Enyart had with Eugenie Scott? I think you will like it.Jack Jones
November 15, 2015
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Anti-Science Irony Excerpt: In response to a letter from Asa Gray, professor of biology at Harvard University, Darwin declared: “I am quite conscious that my speculations run quite beyond the bounds of true science.” When questioned further by Gray, Darwin confirmed Gray’s suspicions: “What you hint at generally is very, very true: that my work is grievously hypothetical, and large parts are by no means worthy of being called induction.” Darwin had turned against the use of scientific principles in developing his theory of evolution. http://www.darwinthenandnow.com/2011/10/anti-science-irony/ An Early Critique of Darwin Warned of a Lower Grade of Degradation - Cornelius Hunter - Dec. 22, 2012 Excerpt: "Many of your wide conclusions are based upon assumptions which can neither be proved nor disproved. Why then express them in the language & arrangements of philosophical induction?" (Sedgwick to Darwin - 1859),,, And anticipating the fixity-of-species strawman, Sedgwick explained to the Sage of Kent (Darwin) that he had conflated the observable fact of change of time (development) with the explanation of how it came about. Everyone agreed on development, but the key question of its causes and mechanisms remained. Darwin had used the former as a sort of proof of a particular explanation for the latter. “We all admit development as a fact of history;” explained Sedgwick, “but how came it about?”,,, For Darwin, warned Sedgwick, had made claims well beyond the limits of science. Darwin issued truths that were not likely ever to be found anywhere “but in the fertile womb of man’s imagination.” The fertile womb of man’s imagination. What a cogent summary of evolutionary theory. Sedgwick made more correct predictions in his short letter than all the volumes of evolutionary literature to come. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/12/an-early-critique-of-darwin-warned-of.html SKEPTICS OF DARWINIAN THEORY Sedgwick to Darwin "...I have read your book with more pain than pleasure. Parts of it I admired greatly, parts I laughed at till my sides were almost sore; other parts I read with absolute sorrow, because I think them utterly false and grievously mischievous." Adam Sedgwick (1785-1873) - one of the founders of modern geology. - The Spectator, 1860 http://veritas-ucsb.org/library/origins/quotes/critics.html
Here is the letter from Adam Sedgwick to Charles Darwin:
Sedgwick, Adam to Darwin - 24 Nov 1859 Excerpt: There is a moral or metaphysical part of nature as well as a physical. A man who denies this is deep in the mire of folly.,, http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/entry-2548 Was Darwin a Scholar or a Pitchman? - Michael Flannery - October 20, 2015 Excerpt: By and large, the scientists of his day were not much impressed with Darwin's theory. John Herschel called natural selection "the law of higgledy-piggledy," and William Whewell thought the theory consisted of "speculations" that were "quite unproved by facts," so much so that he refused to put the book on the shelves of the Trinity College Library. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/10/was_darwin_a_sc100191.html Someone tries telling the truth: Darwin wasn’t that great but he met an elite need - July 29, 2014 Excerpt: , he (Charles Darwin) devoted almost every bit of his magnum opus (Origin Of Species) to tedious examples of artificial selection in domestic animals. He brushed away the glaring advantage of artificial over natural selection with rhetoric along the lines of “I see no reason why” natural selection might not have fashioned the eye or any other organ or living thing. For such schoolboy ineptitude he was roundly criticized by his contemporaries, all of whom are now consigned to history’s dustbin, regardless of their skills and biological competency. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/someone-tries-telling-the-truth-darwin-wasnt-that-great-but-he-met-an-elite-need/
In fact, Darwin's book contains far more (bad) theology than it contains anything of what may be considered proper science.
Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 Excerpt: The Origin supplies abundant evidence of theology in action; as Dilley observes: I have argued that, in the first edition of the Origin, Darwin drew upon at least the following positiva theological claims in his case for descent with modification (and against special creation): 1. Human beings are not justified in believing that God creates in ways analogous to the intellectual powers of the human mind. 2. A God who is free to create as He wishes would create new biological limbs de novo rather than from a common pattern. 3. A respectable deity would create biological structures in accord with a human conception of the 'simplest mode' to accomplish the functions of these structures. 4. God would only create the minimum structure required for a given part's function. 5. God does not provide false empirical information about the origins of organisms. 6. God impressed the laws of nature on matter. 7. God directly created the first 'primordial' life. 8. God did not perform miracles within organic history subsequent to the creation of the first life. 9. A 'distant' God is not morally culpable for natural pain and suffering. 10. The God of special creation, who allegedly performed miracles in organic history, is not plausible given the presence of natural pain and suffering. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html “Religious views were mixed, with the Church of England scientific establishment reacting against the book, while liberal Anglicans strongly supported Darwin’s natural selection as an instrument of God’s design.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_On_the_Origin_of_Species
Moreover, Darwin introduced no math whatsoever in his theory of origin of species. In fact, Darwin said he found math to be 'repugnant':
“During the three years which I spent at Cambridge my time was wasted, as far as the academical studies were concerned, as completely as at Edinburgh & at school. I attempted mathematics, & even went during the summer of 1828 with a private tutor (a very dull man) to Barmouth, but I got on very slowly. The work was repugnant to me, chiefly from my not being able to see any meaning in the early steps in algebra.” Charles Darwin, 1887 – Recollections of the Development of my Mind & Character, the work which Darwin himself referred to as his autobiography
bornagain
November 15, 2015
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Larry Moran thinks Darwin had such a great mind that he takes it as an insult to be called a Darwinist. hahahaJack Jones
November 15, 2015
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Darwin, a great mind? That's a laugh. Isaac Newton, Gottfried Leibniz, Rene Descartes, Max Planck were great minds. Darwin was a mental midget in comparison, a moron.Mapou
November 15, 2015
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When I open a page of Darwin I immediately sense that I have been ushered into the presence of a great mind. I have the same feeling when I read RA Fisher and with GC Williams. When I read Phillip Johnson, I feel that I have been ushered into the presence of a lawyer. Robert Pennock in "Intelligent Design Creationism and Its Critics" (p. 549)
Larry Moran
November 15, 2015
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The Philosophy of evolution accommodates whatever is found.Jack Jones
November 15, 2015
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Collins: Don’t the genome and the phenome give us conflicting trees though? Until the age of genetics, phenetics based on morphology was the primary method of tree-building. It's still used in palaeontology and in species-level classification. Trees constructed on genomes and those constructed on phenomes give largely the same pattern. Humans group with great apes, great apes group with primates, primates group with placentals, placentals group with amniotes, regardless of whether you look at phenomes or genomes. However, highly derived organisms can be difficult to classify on morphology alone. While everyone agreed that cetaceans are mammals, there was disagreement as to which branch of mammals they grouped with. Genomic data pointed to Artiodactyla, and eventually this was confirmed from the morphology of fossils. In other words, molecules predicted what would be found in geological strata.Zachriel
November 15, 2015
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"I understand that the vast majority of mutations are harmful" Generally, the vast majority of mutations are neutral. Behe's trying to trick you a bit here. Notice his slide says "Of those that affect the organism," in an attempt to hide this fact. Neutral mutations don't affect the organism. The lack of references should tell you something. Try this one: "Adaptive mutations in bacteria: High rate and small effects. Science 317: 813-815." "Don’t the genome and the phenome give us conflicting trees though?" Could you point us to a phenome-based tree of life? Does the data to construct such a thing even exist?REC
November 15, 2015
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Zach., Don't the genome and the phenome give us conflicting trees though?Collin
November 15, 2015
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Gordon, I don't mean to pile on, but I wanted to take issue with just one thing. You said we observe mutation. We certainly do. I understand that the vast majority of mutations are harmful and that even the mutations that confer an advantage also cause harm. See here at 53:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_XN8s-zXx4Collin
November 15, 2015
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Barry Arrington: Consider, to take one example of many, cladistics. It does not take a genius to know that cladistic techniques do not establish common descent; rather they assume it. Analysis of traits, including molecular data, shows that the tree structure is an objective pattern — regardless of baloney, er, rhetoric.Zachriel
November 15, 2015
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Zach,
Generally, attorneys are better known for making baloney.
True, and that is exactly why we are trained to detect it.Barry Arrington
November 15, 2015
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Barry Arrington: Can a Lowly Lawyer Make a Useful Contribution? Maybe. Sure. If a patent clerk can, then maybe a lawyer can to. Barry Arrington: Johnson is saying that attorneys are trained to detect baloney. Generally, attorneys are better known for making baloney. Box: Gradual evolution predicts a smooth blending of traits and therefore does not predict a nested hierarchy. Trees grow gradually, but the leaves still form a nested hierarchy when grouped by branch and stem.Zachriel
November 15, 2015
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PPS: We tend to forget what Lewontin so clearly put on the table:
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people's heads [==> as in, "we" have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge] we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
kairosfocus
November 15, 2015
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PS: Johnson, replying to Lewontin:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence.
[--> notice, the power of an undisclosed, question-begging, controlling assumption . . . often put up as if it were a mere reasonable methodological constraint; emphasis added. Let us note how Rational Wiki, so-called, presents it:
"Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses."
Of course, this ideological imposition on science that subverts it from freely seeking the empirically, observationally anchored truth about our world pivots on the deception of side-stepping the obvious fact since Plato in The Laws Bk X, that there is a second, readily empirically testable and observable alternative to "natural vs [the suspect] supernatural." Namely, blind chance and/or mechanical necessity [= the natural] vs the ART-ificial, the latter acting by evident intelligently directed configuration. [Cf Plantinga's reply here and here.] And as for the god of the gaps canard, the issue is, inference to best explanation across competing live option candidates. If chance and necessity is a candidate, so is intelligence acting by art through design. And if the latter is twisted into a caricature god of the gaps strawman, then locked out, huge questions are being oh so conveniently begged.]
That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
kairosfocus
November 15, 2015
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GD, did you notice that you spoke to "evolutionary theory" and not to micro-evolutionary adaptations? Are you aware that the extrapolation from the micro to the macro is a material and commonly made shift shift and one that is highly questionable on the issue of origin of FSCO/I by blind watchmaker thesis needle in haystack search? That, the failure to make a clear distinction therefore implies much? You go on to cite yourself from 173:
Other things are not well established. The one you’re particularly concerned with, materialism, is neither well-established nor part of evolutionary theory. I’m not going to say anything at all like “fact, Fact, FACT” about it, because I don’t consider it one. I think it (or some variant, like physicalism) is the best available guess at the nature of reality, but I consider that a (semi-educated) guess, not fact.
The problem here is of course that there is a commonly observed stalking horse that effectively implies commitment to metaphysics level evolutionary materialism by imposing a censoring rule on thought about origins. Namely, so called methodological naturalism, which in effect boils down to only those entities acceptable to metaphysical naturalism etc will be acknowledged in science as we dominate it. Cf Rational Wiki and US NSTA and NAS etc for cases in point across a broad spectrum. Yes, it is possible to formally deny this link between seemingly reasonable methodological constraints and linked metaphysical commitments and still be influenced by or even locked into the relevant ideological agenda; the implication is all that is needed (or even just the tendency), and/or the going along with the flow. A long time ago, that was a routine problem with those influenced and controlled by marxism. Sometimes to the point of being puppets and agitprop false front operations that seemed to be grassroots but were in fact what in more recent times is termed astroturf. A very good sign of such is something like I am one of you guys BUT . . . , and here comes the agitprop. Slightly less common is, I don't agree with those extremists BUT . . . Judging by the obvious success of cultural marxist disinformation pushes and the taqiyya of the IslamIST propaganda front men, such can work very well indeed, at the level of rhetorical manipulation. I put it to you, that much the same obtains today for methodological vs metaphysical naturalism. And in that wider context, when you say something like:
There are some parts of evolutionary theory that are so well supported that they can be considered facts. Widespread (if not necessarily universal) common ancestry. Mutation, selection, and drift all happen; we see ’em in the lab, we see ’em in the wild, and we see their effects in genomes . . . . Methodological naturalism is part of science, but philosophical naturalism is not . . .
-- you are giving off some pretty strong signs of underlying ideological influences. Now, the onward context is that I had highlighted the challenge essay on the ToL, in the context of the common Darwinist claim it's a fact:
170 kairosfocus November 12, 2015 at 5:43 pm GD, pardon, but if the Darwinism proponents had the goods as they often project (fact, Fact, FACT) that essay would be all over the Internet in many forms as survey feature articles. The ABSENCE is what is so telling. Later. KF 171 kairosfocus November 12, 2015 at 5:46 pm PS: The actual thread focus is the grip of evolutionary materialist ideology, from the title on.
(I intended to come back on technicalities but local events plus news on a biopsy elsewhere are intervening. I will just note here that he search for a golden search is in a power set to the direct config space so that we face thereafter exponentially harder searches for searches in higher order spaces. So, no the oh you mean flat random spaces is irrelevant. And hoping for a convenient forcing law of bias in nature that in effect solves the problem of OOl in absence of actual empirical observation of same, is questionable. Where the genome and the vast diversity of proteins points to the fact that there is no good reason to infer forced patterns or conveniently easy search spaces or strategies. At higher organisational level, it is even more evident that the organisation of he cell is highly contingent. The needle in haystack search challenge at OOL and thereafter for origin of body plans, remains. The fact is, the only actually empirically grounded source of FSCO/I is design, and that is exactly the issue we are looking at for the world of life from LUCA to us.) And yes, notice that I spoke explicitly to what Darwinists all too commonly say, that the macroevolutionary picture of origins is fact not theory, even comparing to the roundness of the earth or the like. In the context that if they had the goods, the essay would be everywhere. Your hot retort, but I have not said that is at best tangential, especially when it leads straight to what I excerpted. Now, too, no-one including informed YECs denies micro-evolution and linked empirically supported factors, so that suggestion on what the only viable ID would be is a strawman by suggestion. The key clue I responded to, is the distinctions you fail to make, and the conflation of what should not be conflated. Let me further clip what I responded to:
[GD, 173:] There are some parts of evolutionary theory that are so well supported that they can be considered facts. Widespread (if not necessarily universal) common ancestry. Mutation, selection, and drift all happen; we see ’em in the lab, we see ’em in the wild, and we see their effects in genomes . . . . Methodological naturalism is part of science, but philosophical naturalism is not . . . . Everyone here is falling all over themselves accusing those of us on the science side of being hopelessly biased, irrational, etc. All I can really say is, have you looked in a mirror lately? The level of irrational bias on the ID side is completely ridiculous. Do you have all have any self-awareness at all?
I here highlight two key points, first to show that you have joined the party of We are the Scientists [ which is used by evolutionary materialist ideologues and their fellow travellers, by way of disqualifying and dismissing those who differ] and an explicit affirmation of methodological naturalism while trying to distance oneself from the implied philosophical naturalism. Just as a reminder, I again cite Rational Wiki (noting that here is plenty of back-up for the expressed sentiment):
>"Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses."
Of course, this ideological imposition on science that subverts it from freely seeking the empirically, observationally anchored truth about our world pivots on the deception of side-stepping the obvious fact since Plato in The Laws Bk X, that there is a second, readily empirically testable and observable alternative to "natural vs [the suspect] supernatural." Namely, blind chance and/or mechanical necessity [= the natural] vs the ART-ificial, the latter acting by evident intelligently directed configuration. [Cf Plantinga's reply here and here.] And as for the god of the gaps canard, the issue is, inference to best explanation across competing live option candidates. If chance and necessity is a candidate, so is intelligence acting by art through design. And if the latter is twisted into a caricature god of the gaps strawman, then locked out, huge questions are being oh so conveniently begged. See what I mean when I talk about dressing up evolutionary materialist scientism (and its fellow travellers) in the holy lab coat? And, going back to the original point, the missing essay speaks volumes. So should the primary focus of the macro evo is a "fact" claim. So, on balance I suggest that in the first instance I pointed to a common claim, I did not personalise to you. You took it up and then showed a pattern of advocating methodological naturalism, which I then pointed out is tantamount to the implicit influence of metaphysical naturalism. This, I think you need to address, along with the underlying point on why that essay is so missing. Gotta get going now. Sorry, I have to cut off. More later. KFkairosfocus
November 15, 2015
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