Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Can a Lowly Lawyer Make a Useful Contribution?  Maybe.

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Dr. Moran has asked me to respond to some technical questions over at Sandwalk.  When I started writing this response I intended to put it in his combox.  Then I realized there is a lot in it that is relevant to our work at UD.  So I will put it here and link to it there.

Dr. Moran, before I answer your technical questions, allow me to make one thing perfectly clear.  I am not a scientist, much less a biologist.  I am an attorney, and being an attorney has some pluses and some minuses insofar as participating in the evolution debate goes.  Like many people in the last 25 years, I was inspired to become involved in this debate by Phillip E. Johnson’s “Darwin on Trial.”  Johnson is also an attorney, and he said this about what an attorney can bring to bear:

I approach the creation-evolution dispute not as a scientist but as a professor of law, which means among other things that I know something about the ways that words are used in arguments. . . . I am not a scientist but an academic lawyer by profession, with a specialty in analyzing the logic of arguments and identifying the assumptions that lie behind those arguments.  This background is more appropriate than one might think, because what people believe about evolution and Darwinism depends very heavily on the kind of logic they employ and the kind of assumptions they make.

Johnson is saying that attorneys are trained to detect baloney.  And that training is very helpful in the evolution debate, because that debate is chock-full of faulty logic (especially circular reasoning), abuse of language (especially equivocations), assumptions masquerading as facts, unexamined premises, etc. etc.

Consider, to take one example of many, cladistics.  It does not take a genius to know that cladistic techniques do not establish common descent; rather they assume it.  But I bet if one asked, 9 out of 10 materialist evolutionists, even the trained scientists among them, would tell you that cladistics is powerful evidence for common descent.  As Johnson argues, a lawyer’s training may help him understand when faulty arguments are being made, sometimes even better than those with a far superior grasp of the technical aspects of the field.  This is not to say that common descent is necessarily false; only cladistics does not establish the matter one way or the other.

In summary, I am trained to evaluate arguments by stripping them down to examine the meaning of the terms used, exposing the underlying assumptions, and following the logic (or, as is often the case, exposing the lack of logic).  And I think I do a pretty fair job of that, both in my legal practice and here at UD.

Now to the minuses.  I do not claim personally to be able to evaluate technical scientific questions.  Like the vast majority of people, I rely on the secondary literature, which, by and large, is accessible to a layman such as myself.  When it comes to independent analysis of technical scientific questions, I have nothing useful to say.

Back to our cladistics example.  I have a very general understanding of how clads are made and what they mean.  But I do not claim to be an expert in the technical issues that arise in the field.  Of course, that is not an obstacle to spotting a faulty argument about cladistics, as I explained above.

Digging deeper – to the fundamental core of the matter – my baloney detector allows me to spot metaphysical assumptions masquerading as scientific “facts.”  This is especially useful in the evolution debate, because – to use KF’s winsome turn of phrase – evolutionists love to cloak their metaphysical commitments in the holy lab coat.

Consider the following claim:  Evolution is a fact.

Yes it is, and it most certainly is not, depending on what one means by the word “evolution.”  If all you mean is that living things were different in the past than they are now, then sure.  Even YEC’s believe that.  But if you mean that modern materialist evolutionary theory has been proven to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold consent, then the statement is absolutely not a fact.  Even materialist evolutionists dispute such vital issues as the relative importance of natural selection.  This is quite aside from the fact that many people (especially ID proponents) do not believe the theory is even plausible, far less unassailable.

Yet I can’t tell you how many times I have caught materialists in this very equivocation.  I do not believe that materialists are always being intentionally misleading when they say this.  Some are but not all.  Those in the latter group have a commitment to materialist metaphysics that is so strong that they often cannot tell where their metaphysics ends and their empirical observations begin.  A person who allows his materialist metaphysical commitments to blind him, may truly believe that the mere fact that living things are different now than they were in the past is, on its face, evidence for materialist evolutionary theory.  Why?  Because if materialism is true, then materialist evolutionary theory must also be true as a matter of simple logic even before we get to the evidence.

And as a matter of strict logic, they are correct.  The conclusion follows from the premises.  The argument is valid.  But what materialist fundamentalists never stop to ask is whether the argument is also sound.  Is that crucial premise “metaphysical materialism is true” a false statement?  There are good reasons to believe that it is, and sometimes it takes someone with a good baloney detector – someone like a lawyer – to clue them in on this.  As astounding as it seems, it is very often the case that materialist evolutionists not only fail to acknowledge an unstated assumption that is absolutely critical to their argument; but also they fail to even know that they’ve made that assumption in the first place and that that assumption might possibly be false.  I can help them understand those things.

Comments
Zachriel, what you just dishonestly did is called 'cherry picking'. The fact of the matter is that the main point that Koonin admits to in the paper is exactly the point that refutes your claim that a tree is largely congruent from the data. Namely,
"The relationships between major groups within an emergent new class of biological entities are hard to decipher and do not seem to fit the tree pattern" - Koonin
That is, to put it mildly, and no matter how much you try to lie about it, NOT a minor problem for the Darwinian narrative! Moreover, it further exposes your inherent, and blatant, dishonesty towards the evidence when you brush aside glaring deficiencies in your preferred atheistic worldview to focus on whatever remains after such a stunning confession by Koonin. Moreover, even on the point that Koonin tries to say is non-problematic to the Darwinian narrative, we still have ample reason to believe that the data, (even in this limited instance after 'major groups' are conceded by Koonin as being 'non-Darwinian), to believe that the data is being 'cherry picked' by Darwinists to accord to the Darwinian narrative: In fact, many times evolutionists will scan molecular sequences using computer algorithms to find a hypothetical Tree Of Life (TOL), but this is very problematic because of the inherent bias of researchers to look solely for evidence that accords to a preconceived evolutionary conclusion whereas ignoring all sequences that disagree with their inherent bias:,,,
Pattern pluralism and the Tree of Life hypothesis - 2006 Excerpt: Hierarchical structure can always be imposed on or extracted from such data sets by algorithms designed to do so, but at its base the universal TOL rests on an unproven assumption about pattern that, given what we know about process, is unlikely to be broadly true. http://www.pnas.org/content/104/7/2043.abstract “The computer programs that analyze the sequence similarities, or differences, are programmed in advance to generate a tree-like pattern. In other words, the assumption of a common ancestor is built into the way in which the analysis is performed. So there is no way you would get anything other than the conclusion,,, It’s a question begging assumption.” Stephen Meyer – on the Cambrian Explosion – podcast (15:25 minute mark) http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2014-05-30T17_33_15-07_00 Contradictory Trees: Evolution Goes 0 For 1,070 - Whif Excerpt: One of evolution’s trade secrets is its prefiltering of data to make it look good, but now evolutionists are resorting to postfiltering of the data as well.,,, Prefiltering is often thought of merely as cleaning up the data. But prefiltering is more than that, for built-in to the prefiltering steps is the theory of evolution. Prefiltering massages the data to favor the theory. The data are, as philosophers explain, theory-laden. But even prefiltering cannot always help the theory.,,, http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/06/contradictory-trees-evolution-goes-0.html Comprehensive Analysis of Chimpanzee and Human Chromosomes Reveals Average DNA Similarity of 70% by Jeffrey Tomkins on February 20, 2013 Excerpt: there is a great deal of preferential and selective treatment of the data being analyzed. In many cases, only the most promising data such as gene-rich sequences that exist in both species (homologs) is utilized from a much larger data pool. This pre-selected data is often further subjected to more filtering before being analyzed and discussed. Non-alignable regions and large gaps in DNA sequence alignments are also typically omitted, thus increasing the levels of reported similarity. https://answersingenesis.org/answers/research-journal/v6/comprehensive-analysis-of-chimpanzee-and-human-chromosomes/ Do Molecular Clocks Run at All? A Critique of Molecular Systematics - Jeffrey H. Schwartz, Bruno Maresca Abstract: Although molecular systematists may use the terminology of cladism, claiming that the reconstruction of phylogenetic relationships is based on shared derived states (synapomorphies), the latter is not the case. Rather, molecular systematics is (largely) based on the assumption, first clearly articulated by Zuckerkandl and Pauling (1962), that degree of overall similarity reflects degree of relatedness. This assumption derives from interpreting molecular similarity (or dissimilarity) between taxa in the context of a Darwinian model of continual and gradual change. Review of the history of molecular systematics and its claims in the context of molecular biology reveals that there is no basis for the “molecular assumption.”.. For historians and philosophers of science the questions that arise are how belief in the infallibility of molecular data for reconstructing evolutionary relationships emerged, and how this belief became so central … http://www.pitt.edu/~jhs/articles/Schwartz&Maresca_Mol_clocks.pdf Fudging Evolution to Avoid Falsification - March 12, 2015 Evolutionary theory follows Finagle’s Rule #4: “Draw your curves, then plot your data.” Excerpt: “The fact that the clock is so uncertain is very problematic for us,” David Reich of Harvard said at a recent meeting where no consensus was reached. “It means that the dates we get out of genetics are really quite embarrassingly bad and uncertain.” The solution for some has been to invoke “rate heterogeneity”: mutations rates that speed up or slow down as needed to keep the theory intact. - http://crev.info/2015/03/fudging-evolution/ Evolution Makes No Sense on This Molecular Clock Problem - Cornelius Hunter - June 15, 2015 Excerpt: The theory-laden measurements are based on evolutionary theory. The theory-neutral measurements do not entail evolutionary thinking. In other words, making measurements based on evolutionary theory leads to problems. The resulting DNA mutation rates are not even close to what we can measure more directly, free from theoretical assumptions. As is often the case, these discrepancies between the evidence and the theory leave evolutionists unsure and of differing opinions. As one evolutionist admitted: "The fact that the clock is so uncertain is very problematic for us, It means that the dates we get out of genetics are really quite embarrassingly bad and uncertain." http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2015/06/evolution-makes-no-sense-on-this.html
Moreover, even if molecular sequences did accord to the Darwinian narrative, it still is of absolutely no use for Darwinists since you can mutate DNA 'until the cows come home' and you are not going to effect body plan morphogenesis
‘Now one more problem as far as the generation of information. It turns out that you don’t only need information to build genes and proteins, it turns out to build Body-Plans you need higher levels of information; Higher order assembly instructions. DNA codes for the building of proteins, but proteins must be arranged into distinctive circuitry to form distinctive cell types. Cell types have to be arranged into tissues. Tissues have to be arranged into organs. Organs and tissues must be specifically arranged to generate whole new Body-Plans, distinctive arrangements of those body parts. We now know that DNA alone is not responsible for those higher orders of organization. DNA codes for proteins, but by itself it does not insure that proteins, cell types, tissues, organs, will all be arranged in the body. And what that means is that the Body-Plan morphogenesis, as it is called, depends upon information that is not encoded on DNA. Which means you can mutate DNA indefinitely. 80 million years, 100 million years, til the cows come home. It doesn’t matter, because in the best case you are just going to find a new protein some place out there in that vast combinatorial sequence space. You are not, by mutating DNA alone, going to generate higher order structures that are necessary to building a body plan. So what we can conclude from that is that the neo-Darwinian mechanism is grossly inadequate to explain the origin of information necessary to build new genes and proteins, and it is also grossly inadequate to explain the origination of novel biological form.’ Stephen Meyer - (excerpt taken from Meyer/Sternberg vs. Shermer/Prothero debate - 2009) (52:57 minute mark) https://youtu.be/7yqqlZ29gcU?t=3177 Body plans, contrary to Darwinian presuppositions, simply are not reducible to DNA, period! That finding pretty much renders any Darwinian argument based on DNA alone moot and void: - Nov. 2015 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/are-some-of-our-opponents-in-the-grip-of-a-domineering-parasitical-ideology/#comment-587726
bornagain
November 16, 2015
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Thought-provoking reading: https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/course/76-327A/readings/Campbell.pdf Note especially the implicit significance of speaking to Ch 1 of Paley but not Ch 2 on the thought exercise of a self replicating, time keeping watch, in light of the significance of OOL.kairosfocus
November 16, 2015
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bpragmatic: do you think there would be any value in assessing,commenting on and refuting at least some of bornagain’s references in his post at comment 40 that contradict what your conclusion probably is based on your statement? Zachriel: Bornagain is not willing or able to discuss any of his links. When queried, he merely spews more links. Case in point @61. Here's what bornagain quotes:
Koonin: The relationships between major groups within an emergent new class of biological entities are hard to decipher and do not seem to fit the tree pattern that, following Darwin’s original proposal, remains the dominant description of biological evolution.
Reading further, it's clear there is a signal of several trees converging, but the points of convergence may not form a simple monophyletic relationship.
Koonin: Here, I argue for a fundamentally different solution, i.e., that a single, uninterrupted TOL does not exist, although the evolution of large divisions of life for extended time intervals can be adequately described by trees {emphasis added}.
The author is clearly arguing for evolutionary descent. He suggests that there are two modes of descent, the usual tree, and a big bang period which involves rapid and tangled cladogenetic events. Most of the tangle in metazoa is probably due to incomplete lineage sorting on a grand scale. The tangle on the origin of domains is probably due to horizontal mechanisms, but there is still a lot unknown. Nonetheless, the overall branching pattern remains.Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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Zachriel spewing more of his lies: "Huh? The very reason to use the tree as an example is because we can watch it grow over time." & "The overall pattern is congruent." and yet there is no 'tree' as Zach falsely claims:
The Biological Big Bang model for the major transitions in evolution - Eugene V Koonin - Background: "Major transitions in biological evolution show the same pattern of sudden emergence of diverse forms at a new level of complexity. The relationships between major groups within an emergent new class of biological entities are hard to decipher and do not seem to fit the tree pattern that, following Darwin's original proposal, remains the dominant description of biological evolution. The cases in point include the origin of complex RNA molecules and protein folds; major groups of viruses; archaea and bacteria, and the principal lineages within each of these prokaryotic domains; eukaryotic supergroups; and animal phyla. In each of these pivotal nexuses in life's history, the principal "types" seem to appear rapidly and fully equipped with the signature features of the respective new level of biological organization. No intermediate "grades" or intermediate forms between different types are detectable; http://www.biology-direct.com/content/2/1/21 Why Darwin was wrong about the (genetic) tree of life: - 21 January 2009 Excerpt: Syvanen recently compared 2000 genes that are common to humans, frogs, sea squirts, sea urchins, fruit flies and nematodes. In theory, he should have been able to use the gene sequences to construct an evolutionary tree showing the relationships between the six animals. He failed. The problem was that different genes told contradictory evolutionary stories. This was especially true of sea-squirt genes. Conventionally, sea squirts - also known as tunicates - are lumped together with frogs, humans and other vertebrates in the phylum Chordata, but the genes were sending mixed signals. Some genes did indeed cluster within the chordates, but others indicated that tunicates should be placed with sea urchins, which aren't chordates. "Roughly 50 per cent of its genes have one evolutionary history and 50 per cent another," Syvanen says. ."We've just annihilated the tree of life. It's not a tree any more, it's a different topology entirely," says Syvanen. "What would Darwin have made of that?" http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126921.600-why-darwin-was-wrong-about-the-tree-of-life.html Phylogeny: Rewriting evolution - Tiny molecules called microRNAs are tearing apart traditional ideas about the animal family tree. - Elie Dolgin - 27 June 2012 Excerpt: “I've looked at thousands of microRNA genes, and I can't find a single example that would support the traditional tree,” he says. "...they give a totally different tree from what everyone else wants.” (Phylogeny: Rewriting evolution, Nature 486,460–462, 28 June 2012) (molecular palaeobiologist - Kevin Peterson) Mark Springer, (a molecular phylogeneticist working in DNA states),,, “There have to be other explanations,” he says. Peterson and his team are now going back to mammalian genomes to investigate why DNA and microRNAs give such different evolutionary trajectories. “What we know at this stage is that we do have a very serious incongruence,” says Davide Pisani, a phylogeneticist at the National University of Ireland in Maynooth, who is collaborating on the project. “It looks like either the mammal microRNAs evolved in a totally different way or the traditional topology is wrong. http://www.nature.com/news/phylogeny-rewriting-evolution-1.10885 "The study had sought to determine the evolutionary history of the animal phyla by analyzing fifty genes along seventeen taxa. He hoped that a single, dominant phylogenetic tree would emerge. Rokas and his team reported that “a 5-gene data matrix does not resolve relationships among most metazoan phyla” because it generated numerous conflicting phylogenies and historical signals. Their conclusion was candid: “Despite the amount of data and breadth of taxa analyzed, relationships among most metazoan phyla remained unresolved.”,,, Sean B. Carroll went so far as to assert that “certain critical parts of the TOL [Tree of Life] may be difficult to resolve, regardless of the quantity of conventional data available.” This problem applies specifically to the relationships of many of the animal phyla, where “[m]any recent studies have reported support for many alternative conflicting phylogenies.” Investigators studying the animal tree found that “ a large fraction of single genes produce phylogenies of poor quality” such that in one case, a study “omitted 35% of single genes from their data matrix, because those genes produced phylogenies at odds with conventional wisdom”,,, Their article brings the discussion of the Cambrian explosion full circle from an attempt to use genes to compensate for the absence of fossil evidence to the acknowledgment that genes do not convey any clear signal about the evolutionary relationships of the phyla first preserved by fossils in the Cambrian." Steve Meyer - Darwin’s Doubt (pp. 120–21) A New Model for Evolution: A Rhizome - Didier Raoult - May 2010 Excerpt: Thus we cannot currently identify a single common ancestor for the gene repertoire of any organism.,,, Overall, it is now thought that there are no two genes that have a similar history along the phylogenic tree.,,,Therefore the representation of the evolutionary pathway as a tree leading to a single common ancestor on the basis of the analysis of one or more genes provides an incorrect representation of the stability and hierarchy of evolution. Finally, genome analyses have revealed that a very high proportion of genes are likely to be newly created,,, and that some genes are only found in one organism (named ORFans). These genes do not belong to any phylogenic tree and represent new genetic creations. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/05/new-model-for-evolution-rhizome.html etc.. etc..
as to: "Bornagain is not willing or able to discuss any of his links. When queried, he merely spews more links. Perhaps you could choose one for discussion." Translation,
I, Zach, can't honestly answer these papers that BA77 presents, that expose my lies so clearly, and so I will stick my head in the sand and pretend that my lies are more 'authoritative' than the actual evidence presented"
There you go Zach, all better. You can thank me later for translating your words into what they actually mean.bornagain
November 16, 2015
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bpragmatic: Despite any point you think you are effectively making, we can observe the growth and the parts of an actual tree, from the tips of the leaves to the limbs to the branches to the tree trunk down to the roots. No need to make any assumptions there. Huh? The very reason to use the tree as an example is because we can watch it grow over time. bpragmatic: What about all of the inconsistencies between the genotype and phenotype. The overall pattern is congruent. Axel: Darwin was strictly a dilettante. That's hardly the case. Darwin published extensively, including original observations and experimentation. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/09/dawkins-versus-darwin.html?showComment=1283960128285#c8651414202205882625 bpragmatic: do you think there would be any value in assessing,commenting on and refuting at least some of bornagain’s references in his post at comment 40 that contradict what your conclusion probably is based on your statement? Bornagain is not willing or able to discuss any of his links. When queried, he merely spews more links. Perhaps you could choose one for discussion.Zachriel
November 16, 2015
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Those Negroes are like Gorillas "The inability to move the ears in man and several apes is, however, partly compensated by the freedom with which they can move the head in a horizontal plane, so as to catch sounds from all directions. It has been asserted that the ear of man alone possesses a lobule; but "a rudiment of it is found in the gorilla";*(4) and, as I hear from Prof. Preyer, it is not rarely absent in the negro." "The great break in the organic chain between man and his nearest allies, which cannot be bridged over by any extinct or living species, has often been advanced as a grave objection to the belief that man is descended from some lower form; but this objection will not appear of much weight to those who, from general reasons, believe in the general principle of evolution. Breaks often occur in all parts of the series, some being wide, sharp and defined, others less so in various degrees; as between the orang and its nearest allies- between the Tarsius and the other Lemuridae- between the elephant, and in a more striking manner between the Ornithorhynchus or Echidna, and all other mammals. But these breaks depend merely on the number of related forms which have become extinct. At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked,* will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla." The prevailing views by the authors you list all stems from the Darwin family views in the Victorian era. It's called scientific racism and its deplorable!Andre
November 15, 2015
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Descent of Man This is the most racist book ever written.
An astonishingly ridiculous and ignorant statement. You should try checking out just about any of the other books from the era. Some of the leading books of the subject of human races prior to Darwin: Account of the Regular Gradation in Man by Charles White, The Races of Men by Robert Knox, Types of Mankind and Indigenous Races of the Earth by Nott and Gliddon, Inequality of the Races by Gobineau, and Cannibals All! by George Fitzhugh Many of the anti-Darwinian late 19th century books were equally ugly – such as Adamites and Preadamites by Alexander Winchell or The Negro a Beast by Charles Carroll. But I wouldn't recommend reading any of those if you don't have a strong stomach. In fact, one would be hard pressed to find a less racist book during Darwin’s time. Anyone who reads Descent might be puzzled at how much time he spends actually arguing at how similar the races of humanity are in mind and body. This is because the leading theory of the time was polygenism, and so a major challenge was convincing others of his time that the races are similar enough to be related! I also recommend Darwin’s Sacred Cause, which argues that combating slavery and the racism of his time was a major motivation for releasing his theory.goodusername
November 15, 2015
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I've read: On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life I enjoyed Chapter 1, 6 and 9. Darwin's observation about artificial selection is spot on, the moment he tries to apply this to unguided processes the whole book falls apart. What I am glad about is that he understood the problems with his own theory. Descent of Man This is the most racist book ever written. As the world tries to deal with racism we continually teach this nonsense as true. How on earth can you tell one race they are superior another they are inferior and expect everyone to get along? This book is trash.Andre
November 15, 2015
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Zachriel: “Trees constructed on genomes and those constructed on phenomes give largely the same pattern.” So Zachriel, based on your comment above, to you, at least for discussion do you think there would be any value in assessing,commenting on and refuting at least some of bornagain's references in his post at comment 40 that contradict what your conclusion probably is based on your statement? Genome and phenome studies significantly support your evolutionary assertions? If not, why not?bpragmatic
November 15, 2015
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Collin @52 Sorry, couldn't tell if it was my posts above (e.g. @13) that you fled from or what it was you were replying to. But for what it is worth, it was your compadre J-Mac was the one who attacked Larry Moran and lionized Behe above based on their experience in experimental evolutionary biology. So take it up with him.....REC
November 15, 2015
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I'm not hateful. I'm just pissed. Understanding the origin of life and the universe is, IMO, the most important knowledge we can attain. You people just don't realize how much harm you bring to humanity. You must be mocked and discredited at every opportunity.Mapou
November 15, 2015
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"You got a problem with that?" If it makes you happy, knock your socks off. For me, life is too short to be so hateful.brian douglas
November 15, 2015
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Rec, You got me. I am actually totally against rational thought. I certainly wasn't referring to your implication that Behe has to do experimental biology in order to be correct in his criticisms of evolutionary theory. Nope, that couldn't be it. I must have been saying that I don't believe in rationality. If you are curious here are some of his journal articles and other publications according to wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Behe#Journal_articles I recommend you learn how to use google to find this kind of information.Collin
November 15, 2015
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douglas, I consider all Darwinists and materialists to be weavers of lies and deception. And they are not really all that smart about it. I simply refuse to play Moran's stupid deceptive game. That's all. You got a problem with that?Mapou
November 15, 2015
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"Man, I’m not your dog. I’m a free man and a free thinker. I will not let either you or a deranged bozo like Darwin do my thinking for me." A strange response to a simple question. All Larry asked is if you had read Origin of Species. Not if you agreed with it.brian douglas
November 15, 2015
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Moran:
Have you read “Origin of Species” cover-to-cover? A simple “yes” or “no” will suffice.
Man, I'm not your dog. I'm a free man and a free thinker. I will not let either you or a deranged bozo like Darwin do my thinking for me.Mapou
November 15, 2015
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Mapou @ your #17, yes, Darwin was strictly a dilettante. I believe there have been one or two scientific dilettantes of genius - I believe, aristocrats, with the time, money and a certain autonomy - but Darwin was surely a journeyman 'stamp-collector' of Kelvin's famous, dismissive quip, concerning non-physicists. In fact, he actually stated, and it is sometimes quoted, that if something* turned out to be true, then it would very gravel undermine his conjectures. Conjectures they were, and indeed, did turnout to be false. But even if the significance of Darwin's avowal were to be insisted upon with great vehemence, not enough scientists in that field have died yet, for it to be accepted. Well, the atheist tenure-baggers will never voluntarily accept it - never mind that it was Darwin, himself, who saw how hopelessly vulnerable his conjectures were. *I'm sorry. I can't remember what it was, but you boffins will know it well enough.Axel
November 15, 2015
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"Rational thought?" and exactly how is "Rational thought" to be grounded in a Darwinian worldview?
Sam Harris's Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.html (1) rationality implies a thinker in control of thoughts. (2) under materialism a thinker is an effect caused by processes in the brain. (3) in order for materialism to ground rationality a thinker (an effect) must control processes in the brain (a cause). (1)&(2) (4) no effect can control its cause. Therefore materialism cannot ground rationality. per Box UD " Hawking’s entire argument is built upon theism. He is, as Cornelius Van Til put it, like the child who must climb up onto his father’s lap into order to slap his face. Take that part about the “human mind” for example. Under atheism there is no such thing as a mind. There is no such thing as understanding and no such thing as truth. All (Stephen) Hawking is left with is a box, called a skull, which contains a bunch of molecules. Hawking needs God in order to deny Him." - Cornelius Hunter – Photo – an atheist contemplating his mind http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-H-kjiGN_9Fw/URkPboX5l2I/AAAAAAAAATw/yN18NZgMJ-4/s1600/rob4.jpg
bornagain
November 15, 2015
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@ 45 "REC. Doesn’t matter, even a little bit." What doesn't? Truth? Facts? Rational thought?REC
November 15, 2015
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REC. Doesn't matter, even a little bit.Collin
November 15, 2015
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If I may butt in REC. I know of no experiment that Behe has personally done. But in regards to peer review, Dr. Behe surveyed laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades, and that review was published in peer review:
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain – Michael Behe – December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Michael Behe: Challenging Darwin, One Peer-Reviewed Paper at a Time – December 2010 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-23T11_53_46-08_00 Biological Information - Loss-of-Function Mutations by Paul Giem 2015 - video (Behe - Loss of function mutations are far more likely to fix in a population than gain of function mutations) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzD3hhvepK8&index=20&list=PLHDSWJBW3DNUUhiC9VwPnhl-ymuObyTWJ In the book "Biological Information: New Perspectives" the chapter entitled "Getting There First: An Evolutionary Rate Advantage for Adaptive Loss-of-Function Mutations" looks at the likelihood of gain-of-function and loss-of-function mutations occurring in a given population and finds loss-of-function mutations to be more probable in general, both in theory and in practice. http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/9789814508728_0020
As to another empirical falsification of Darwinian theory, I find another empirical falsification of Darwinism by the now empirically established fact that 'non-local', beyond space and time, quantum entanglement/information is now found in molecular biology on a massive scale. Darwinism holds information (as well as consciousness) to be emergent from a reductive material basis. Quantum non-locality falsified that assumption.
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php NIST team proves 'spooky action at a distance' is really real - November 12, 2015 Excerpt: Researchers showed the measured results not only were correlated, but also—by eliminating all other known options—that these correlations cannot be caused by the locally controlled, "realistic" universe Einstein thought we lived in.,,, The research team achieved this feat by simultaneously closing all three major "loopholes" that have plagued previous Bell tests. Closing the loopholes was made possible by recent technical advances, including NIST's ultrafast single-photon detectors, which can accurately detect at least 90 percent of very weak signals, and new tools for randomly picking detector settings. "You can't prove quantum mechanics, but local realism, or hidden local action, is incompatible with our experiment," NIST's Krister Shalm says. "Our results agree with what quantum mechanics predicts about the spooky actions shared by entangled particles.",,, The NIST results are more definitive than those reported recently by researchers at Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands. In the NIST experiment, the photon source and the two detectors were located in three different, widely separated rooms on the same floor in a large laboratory building. The two detectors are 184 meters apart, and 126 and 132 meters, respectively, from the photon source. The source creates a stream of photon pairs through a common process in which a laser beam stimulates a special type of crystal. This process is generally presumed to create pairs of photons that are entangled, so that the photons' polarizations are highly correlated with one another. Polarization refers to the specific orientation of the photon, like vertical or horizontal (polarizing sunglasses preferentially block horizontally polarized light), analogous to the two sides of a coin. Photon pairs are then separated and sent by fiber-optic cable to separate detectors in the distant rooms. While the photons are in flight, a random number generator picks one of two polarization settings for each polarization analyzer. If the photon matched the analyzer setting, then it was detected more than 90 percent of the time. In the best experimental run, both detectors simultaneously identified photons a total of 6,378 times over a period of 30 minutes. Other outcomes (such as just one detector firing) accounted for only 5,749 of the 12,127 total relevant events. Researchers calculated that the maximum chance of local realism producing these results is just 0.0000000059, or about 1 in 170 million. This outcome exceeds the particle physics community's requirement for a "5 sigma" result needed to declare something a discovery. The results strongly rule out local realistic theories, suggesting that the quantum mechanical explanation of entanglement is indeed the correct explanation. The NIST experiment closed the three major loopholes as follows: Fair sampling: Thanks to NIST's single-photon detectors, the experiment was efficient enough to ensure that the detected photons and measurement results were representative of the actual totals. The detectors, made of superconducting nanowires, were 90 percent efficient, and total system efficiency was about 75 percent. No faster-than-light communication: The two detectors measured photons from the same pair a few hundreds of nanoseconds apart, finishing more than 40 nanoseconds before any light-speed communication could take place between the detectors. Information traveling at the speed of light would require 617 nanoseconds to travel between the detectors. Freedom of choice: Detector settings were chosen by random number generators operating outside the light cone (i.e., possible influence) of the photon source, and thus, were free from manipulation. (In fact, the experiment demonstrated a "Bell violation machine" that NIST eventually plans to use to certify randomness.) To further ensure that hidden variables such as power grid fluctuations could not have influenced the results, the researchers performed additional experimental runs mixed with another source of randomness—data from popular movies, television shows and the digits of Pi. This didn't change the outcome. The experiment was conducted at NIST's Boulder, Colo., campus... http://phys.org/news/2015-11-nist-team-spooky-action-distance.html Quantum Entanglement and Information Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/ Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it) https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176
That ‘non-local’ quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its ‘quantum form’ is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints (Bell, Aspect, Leggett, Zeilinger, etc..), should be found in molecular biology on such a massive scale, in every DNA and protein molecule, is a direct empirical falsification of Darwinian claims, for how can the ‘non-local’ quantum entanglement ‘effect’ in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy) cause when the quantum entanglement effect falsified material particles as its own causation in the first place? Appealing to the probability of various 'random' configurations of material particles, as Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the material particles themselves to supply! In other words, to give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain an effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various ‘special’ configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place! And although Naturalists have proposed various, far fetched, naturalistic scenarios to try to get around the Theistic implications of quantum non-locality, none of the ‘far fetched’ naturalistic solutions, in themselves, are compatible with the reductive materialism that undergirds neo-Darwinian thought.
"[while a number of philosophical ideas] may be logically consistent with present quantum mechanics, ...materialism is not." Eugene Wigner Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TViAqtowpvZy5PZpn-MoSK_&v=4C5pq7W5yRM
Verse:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
bornagain
November 15, 2015
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J-Mac--Out of curiosity, what do you find Behe's most interesting evolutionary biology experiment published in the scientific literature to be?REC
November 15, 2015
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"This is a lie, of course. Nothing superseded Newtonian physics." The physicists might disagree with you. Newton's work was definitely revolutionary. And Einsteins work took Newton's work and expanded on them to explain aspects that Newton's work can't explain. Does that sound familiar? Like Darwin proposing a theory that is expanded on by The modern synthesis. Which is further expanded on by neutral theory, HGT, etc. We have not discarded Newton; after all, as you accurately state, that is all we need to put a man on the moon, and we have not discarded Darwin. But we know that neither of them told the complete picture.brian douglas
November 15, 2015
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One of the most saddest examples of someone who wants to be considered an authority in a scientific field is someone, like professor Dr. Larry Moran, who in order to criticize an experimental scientist, like Dr. Behe, and his real experimental work, has to use other scientists' experiments to do so. The funniest part of it all is that Larry often thinks that the very few experimental scientists he knows support his personal views. The Fukuyama example has recently changed from the world's best expert in the field J. Coyne. When Larry learned that Coyne doesn't support his personal views, he quickly switched to Fukuyama in the desperation for support. Larry, if your university lacks money for experimental work, I might be able to support to test some of your evolutionary delusions. What do you think? You could become a hero IF you emerge victorious.J-Mac
November 15, 2015
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bpragmatic, Casey Luskin did a piece on that:
Problem 6: Molecular Biology has Failed to Yield a Grand "Tree of Life" - Casey Luskin - February 2, 2015 Excerpt: When fossils failed to demonstrate that animals evolved from a common ancestor, evolutionary scientists turned to another type of evidence -- DNA sequence data -- to demonstrate a tree of life. ,,, At the end of the day, the dream that DNA sequence data would fit into a nice-neat tree of life has failed, and with it a key prediction of neo-Darwinian theory. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/02/problem_6_molec091151.html Logged Out - Scientists Can't Find Darwin's "Tree of Life" Anywhere in Nature by Casey Luskin - Winter 2013 Excerpt: the (fossil) record shows that major groups of animals appeared abruptly, without direct evolutionary precursors. Because biogeography and fossils have failed to bolster common descent, many evolutionary scientists have turned to molecules—the nucleotide and amino acid sequences of genes and proteins—to establish a phylogenetic tree of life showing the evolutionary relationships between all living organisms.,,, Many papers have noted the prevalence of contradictory molecule-based phylogenetic trees. For instance: • A 1998 paper in Genome Research observed that "different proteins generate different phylogenetic tree[s]."6 • A 2009 paper in Trends in Ecology and Evolution acknowledged that "evolutionary trees from different genes often have conflicting branching patterns."7 • A 2013 paper in Trends in Genetics reported that "the more we learn about genomes the less tree-like we find their evolutionary history to be."8 Perhaps the most candid discussion of the problem came in a 2009 review article in New Scientist titled "Why Darwin Was Wrong about the Tree of Life."9 The author quoted researcher Eric Bapteste explaining that "the holy grail was to build a tree of life," but "today that project lies in tatters, torn to pieces by an onslaught of negative evidence." According to the article, "many biologists now argue that the tree concept is obsolete and needs to be discarded.",,, Syvanen succinctly summarized the problem: "We've just annihilated the tree of life. It's not a tree any more, it's a different topology entirely. What would Darwin have made of that?" ,,, "battles between molecules and morphology are being fought across the entire tree of life," leaving readers with a stark assessment: "Evolutionary trees constructed by studying biological molecules often don't resemble those drawn up from morphology."10,,, A 2012 paper noted that "phylogenetic conflict is common, and [is] frequently the norm rather than the exception," since "incongruence between phylogenies derived from morphological versus molecular analyses, and between trees based on different subsets of molecular sequences has become pervasive as datasets have expanded rapidly in both characters and species."12,,, http://www.salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo27/logged-out.php Richard Dawkins: How Could Anyone “Possibly Doubt the Fact of Evolution” - Cornelius Hunter - February 27, 2014 Excerpt: there is “no known mechanism or function that would account for this level of conservation at the observed evolutionary distances.”,,, the many examples of nearly identical molecular sequences of totally unrelated animals are “astonishing.”,,, “data are routinely filtered in order to satisfy stringent criteria so as to eliminate the possibility of incongruence.”,,, he has not found “a single example that would support the traditional tree.” It is, another evolutionist admitted, “a very serious incongruence.” “the more molecular data is analysed, the more difficult it is to interpret straightforwardly the evolutionary histories of those molecules.” And yet in public presentations of their theory, evolutionists present a very different story. As Dawkins explained, gene comparisons “fall in a perfect hierarchy, a perfect family tree.” This statement is so false it isn’t even wrong—it is absurd. And then Dawkins chastises anyone who “could possibly doubt the fact of evolution.” Unfortunately this sentiment is typical. Evolutionists have no credibility. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2014/02/richard-dawkins-how-could-anyone.html Darwin’s Tree of Life is a Tangled Bramble Bush - May 15, 2013 Excerpt: ,,, One whole subsection in the paper is titled, “All gene trees differ from species phylogeny.” Another is titled, “Standard practices do not reduce incongruence.” A third, “Standard practices can mislead.” One of their major findings was “extensive conflict in certain internodes.” The authors not only advised throwing out some standard practices of tree-building, but (amazingly) proposed evolutionists throw out the “uninformative” conflicting data and only use data that seems to support the Darwinian tree: “the subset of genes with strong phylogenetic signal is more informative than the full set of genes, suggesting that phylogenomic analyses using conditional combination approaches, rather than approaches based on total evidence, may be more powerful.”,,, ,,,tossing out “uninformative” data sets and only using data that appear to support their foreordained conclusion. Were you told this in biology class? Did your textbook mention this? http://crev.info/2013/05/darwins-tree-of-life-is-a-tangled-bramble-bush/ That Yeast Study is a Good Example of How Evolutionary Theory Works - Cornelius Hunter - June 2013 Excerpt:,,, The evolutionists tried to fix the problem with all kinds of strategies. They removed parts of genes from the analysis, they removed a few genes that might have been outliers, they removed a few of the yeast species, they restricted the analysis to certain genes that agreed on parts of the evolutionary tree, they restricted the analysis to only those genes thought to be slowly evolving, and they tried restricting the gene comparisons to only certain parts of the gene. These various strategies each have their own rationale. That rationale may be dubious, but at least there is some underlying reasoning. Yet none of these strategies worked. In fact they sometimes exacerbated the incongruence problem. What the evolutionists finally had to do, simply put, was to select the subset of the genes or of the problem that gave the right evolutionary answer. They described those genes as having “strong phylogenetic signal.” And how do we know that these genes have strong phylogenetic signal. Because they give the right answer. This is an example of a classic tendency in science known as confirmation bias.,,, http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/06/that-yeast-study-is-good-example-of-how.html etc.. etc..
bornagain
November 15, 2015
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From 36 "What about all of the inconsistencies between the genotype and phenotype. I am sure Born Again can supply a vast array of scientific literature discussing those." Correction to the above statement: What about all of the unexpected results (from an evolutionary perspective) in the data concerning the genotype and phenotype when utlizing comparisons or whatever to support assertions regarding evolution? BA could probably easily site relevant information on the topic. Or can be found online. Or otherwise in the scientific literature.bpragmatic
November 15, 2015
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Joe: "Such people are welcome to that delusion, Just like they are welcome to believe life originated spontaneously in nature in the past and believe chemistry in the present was different in their past." Again, Joe lies about what other people say in order to make his point. Please point to the comment where anyone claimed that chemistry was different in the past than it is now. I must say, you have earned the name Joe. Or would you prefer to be called Virgil?brian douglas
November 15, 2015
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“Funny. I have studied Newtonian physics and I have never seen Newtonian gravity theory adapt to fit any evidence.” No, it was superceded by the theory of relativity. But Newton’s equations are such a good approximation that they are of still practical value.
This is a lie, of course. Nothing superseded Newtonian physics. Newton's gravity equation is still part of general relativity. In fact, Newton (and even Galileo before him) already understood perfectly that the attraction of gravity on a body worked equally on all objects regardless of mass. This is the reason that gravity attracts even massless light particles. We don't need Einstein to teach us this. The only thing that Einstein did was to take the results of the Mickelson-Morley experiments and extended Newtonian theory to include the speed of light and clock slowing. Newtonian gravity is what NASA uses to send probes to the moon and the rest of the solar system. They simply factor the speed of light in their measurements and Newtonian theory works perfectly. Darwinian evolution, by contrast, is continually being falsified by the evidence and simple logic. The combinatorial explosion alone kills it dead. It's a religion of cretins and morons. More like a cult.Mapou
November 15, 2015
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Zachriel: "Trees constructed on genomes and those constructed on phenomes give largely the same pattern." What about all of the inconsistencies between the genotype and phenotype. I am sure Born Again can supply a vast array of scientific literature discussing those. Also, Pardon my side comment but: Too bad no one can "scientifically" demonstrate how the usually invoked evolutionary "mechanisms" are capable of originating and developing a "genome" or "phenome". Let alone what is required to do such things. Kind of reminds me of a point I took Barry Arrington to make regarding "evolutionary" arguments: (Barry, please correct this assumption if it is incorrect) (being) "chock-full of faulty logic (especially circular reasoning), abuse of language (especially equivocations), assumptions masquerading as facts, unexamined premises, etc. etc." Not to worry though. You can always point to certain things in living systems and claim the good old standby argument that "God wouldn't have done it that way, therefore unguided evolution did it" if you are inclined to invoke a common typical atheist religious argument into the mix.bpragmatic
November 15, 2015
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@Mapou@28 You are gonna get people that are deluded to thinking there is a universal "theory of evolution" that all evolutionists agree with. You have neo darwinist and those that reject it,etc Such people are welcome to that delusion, Just like they are welcome to believe life originated spontaneously in nature in the past and believe chemistry in the present was different in their past. hahahaha Just like you are gonna get Moran who hates being called a Darwinist and does not use the term Darwinism or Neo Darwinism for his faith, making out that old Charlie is his hero. While he really is a hero to Coyne who has no problem with using the term Darwinism to describe what he believes. Coyne calls punctuated equilibrium as bunk and sticks to his Darwinian faith but Moran hasn't and seems to admire Gould. Some seriously odd people they are. hahahaJack Jones
November 15, 2015
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