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Can we all agree on specified complexity?

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Amid the fog of recent controversies, I can discern a hopeful sign: the key figures in the ongoing debate over specified complexity on Uncommon Descent are actually converging in their opinions. Allow me to explain why.

Winston Ewert’s helpful clarifications on CSI

In a recent post, ID proponent Winston Ewert agreed that Elizabeth Liddle had a valid point in her criticisms of the design inference, but then went on to say that she had misunderstood what the design inference was intended to do (emphases mine):

She has objected that specified complexity and the design inference do not give a method for calculating probabilities. She is correct, but the design inference was never intended to do that. It is not about how we calculate probabilities, but about the consequences of those probabilities. Liddle is complaining that the design inference isn’t something that it was never intended to be.

He also added:

…[T]he design inference is a conditional. It argues that we can infer design from the improbability of Darwinian mechanisms. If offers no argument that Darwinian mechanisms are in fact improbable. When proving a conditional, we are not concerned with whether or not the antecedent is true. We are interested in whether the consequent follows from the antecedent.

In another post, Winston Ewert summarized his thoughts on specified complexity:

The notion of specified complexity exists for one purpose: to give force to probability arguments. If we look at Behe’s irreducible complexity, Axe’s work on proteins, or practically any work by any intelligent design proponent, the work seeks to demonstrate that the Darwinian account of evolution is vastly improbable. Dembski’s work on specified complexity and design inference works to show why that improbability gives us reason to reject Darwinian evolution and accept design.

Winston Ewert concluded that “the only way to establish that the bacterial flagellum exhibits CSI is to first show that it was improbable.”

To which I would respond: hear, hear! I completely agree.

What about Ewert’s claim that “CSI and Specified complexity do not help in any way to establish that the evolution of the bacterial flagellum is improbable”? He is correct, if by “CSI and Specified complexity,” he simply means the concepts denoted by those terms. If, however, we are talking about the computed probability of the evolution of the bacterial flagellum emerging via unguided processes, then of course this number can be used to support a design inference: if the probability in question is low enough, then the inference to an Intelligent Designer becomes a rational one. Ewert obviously agrees with me on this point, for he writes that “Dembski’s work on specified complexity and design inference works to show why that improbability gives us reason to reject Darwinian evolution and accept design.”

In a recent post, I wrote that “we can decide whether an object has an astronomically low probability of having been produced by unintelligent causes by determining whether it has CSI (that is, a numerical value of specified complexity (SC) that exceeds a certain threshold).” Immediately afterwards, I added that in order to calculate the specified complexity of an object, we first require “the probability of producing the object in question via ‘Darwinian and other material mechanisms.'” I then added that “we compute that probability.” The word “compute” makes it quite clear that without that probability, we will be unable to infer that a given object was in fact designed. I concluded: “To summarize: to establish that something has CSI, we need to show that it exhibits specificity, and that it has an astronomically low probability of having been producedby unguided evolution or any other unintelligent process” (italics added).

Imagine my surprise, then, when I discovered that some readers had been interpreting my claim that “we can decide whether an object has an astronomically low probability of having been produced by unintelligent causes by determining whether it has CSI (that is, a numerical value of specified complexity (SC) that exceeds a certain threshold)” as if I were arguing for a design inference on the basis of some pre-specified numerical value for CSI! Nothing could be further from the truth. To be quite clear: I maintain that the inference that biological organisms (or structures, such as proteins) were designed is a retrospective one. We are justified in making this inference only after we have computed, on the basis of the best information available to us, that the emergence of these organisms (or structures) via unguided processes – in which I include both random changes and the non-random winnowing effect of natural selection – falls below a certain critical threshold of 1 in 2^500 (or roughly, 1 in 10^150). There. I cannot be clearer than that.

So I was heartened to read on a recent post by Barry Arrington that Keith S had recently endorsed a form of design inference, when he wrote:

To use the coin-flipping example, every sequence of 500 fair coin flips is astronomically improbable, because there are 2^500 possible sequences and all have equally low probability. But obviously we don’t exclaim “Design!” after every 500 coin flips. The missing ingredient is the specification of the target T.

Suppose I specify that T is a sequence of 250 consecutive heads followed by 250 consecutive tails. If I then sit down and proceed to flip that exact sequence, you can be virtually certain that something fishy is going on. In other words, you can reject the chance hypothesis H that the coin is fair and that I am flipping it fairly.

That certainly sounds like a design inference to me.

In a follow-up comment on Barry Arrington’s post, Keith S went on to point out:

…[I]n that example, I am not calculating CSI and then using it to determine that something fishy is going on. Rather, I have to determine that something fishy is going on first (that is, that P(T|H) is extremely low under the chance hypothesis) in order to attribute CSI to it.

To which I would respond: you’re quite right, Keith S. That’s what I’ve been saying and what Winston Ewert has been saying. It seems we all agree. We do have to calculate the probability of a system emerging via random and/or non-random unguided processes, before we impute a high level of CSI to the system and conclude that it was designed.

CSI vs. irreducible complexity: what’s the difference?

In a subsequent comment, Keith S wrote:

I think it’s instructive to compare irreducible complexity to CSI in this respect.

To argue that something is designed because it exhibits CSI is circular, because you have to know that it is designed before you can attribute CSI to it.

To argue that something is designed because it is irreducibly complex is not circular, because you can determine that it is IC (according to Behe’s definition) without first determining that it is designed.

The problem with the argument from IC is not that it’s circular — it’s that IC is not a barrier to evolution.

For the record: the following article by Casey Luskin over at Evolution News and Views sets forth Professor Mike Behe’s views on exaptation, which are that while it cannot be absolutely ruled out, its occurrence is extremely improbable, even for modestly complex biologically features. Professor Behe admits, however, that he cannot rigorously quantify his assertions, which are based on his professional experience as a biochemist. Fair enough.

The big difference between CSI and irreducible complexity, then, is not that the former is circular while the latter is not, but that CSI is quantifiable (for those systems where we can actually calculate the probability of their having emerged via unguided random and/or non-random processes) whereas irreducible complexity is not. That is what makes CSI so useful, when arguing for design.

Does Dr. Dembski contradict himself? I think not

Keith S claims to have uncovered a contradiction between the following statement by leading Intelligent Design advocate Dr. Willaim Dembski:

Michael Behe’s notion of irreducible complexity is purported to be a case of actual specified complexity and to be exhibited in real biochemical systems (cf. his book Darwin’s Black Box). If such systems are, as Behe claims, highly improbable and thus genuinely complex with respect to the Darwinian mechanism of mutation and natural selection and if they are specified in virtue of their highly specific function (Behe looks to such systems as the bacterial flagellum), then a door is reopened for design in science that has been closed for well over a century. Does nature exhibit actual specified complexity? The jury is still out.

and this statement of his:

It is CSI that Michael Behe has uncovered with his irreducbly complex biochemical machines. It is CSI that for cosmologists underlies the fine-tuning of the universe and that the various anthropic principles attempt to understand.

I don’t see any contradiction at all here. In the first quote, Dr. Dembski is cautiously pointing out that the inference that the bacterial flagellum was designed hinges on probability calculations, which we do not know for certain to be correct. In the second quote, he is expressing his belief, based on his reading of the evidence currently available, that these calculations are in fact correct, and that Nature does in fact exhibit design.

Dembski and the Law of Conservation of Information

Keith S professes to be deeply puzzled by Dr. Dembski’s Law of Conservation of Information (LCI), which he finds “murky.” He is especially mystified by the statement that neither chance nor law can increase information.

I’d like to explain LCI to Keith S in a single sentence. As I see it, its central insight is very simple: that when all factors are taken into consideration, the probability of an event’s occurrence does not change over the course of time, until it actually occurs. In other words, if the emergence of life in our universe was a fantastically improbable event at the time of the Big Bang, then it was also a fantastically improbable event 3.8 billion years ago, immediately prior to its emergence on Earth. And if it turns out that the emergence of life on Earth 3.8 billions of years ago was a highly probable event, then we should say that the subsequent emergence of life in our universe was highly probable at the time of the Big Bang, too. Chance doesn’t change probabilities over the course of time; neither does law. Chance and law simply provide opportunities for the probabilities to be played out.

Someone might argue that we can think of events in human history which seemed highly improbable at time t, but which would have seemed much more probable at a later time t + 1. (Hitler’s rise to power in Germany would have seemed very unlikely in January 1923, but very likely in January 1933.) But this objection misses the point. Leaving aside the point that humans are free agents, a defender of LCI could reply that when all factors are taken into consideration, events that might seem improbable at an earlier time can in fact be demonstrated to have a high probability of occurring subsequently.

Making inferences based on what you currently know: what’s the problem with that?

Certain critics of Intelligent Design are apt to fault ID proponents for making design inferences based on what scientists currently know. But I see no problem with that, as long as ID proponents declare that they would be prepared to cheerfully revise their opinions, should new evidence come to light which overturns currently accepted beliefs.

I have long argued that Dr. Douglas Axe’s paper, The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds, whose argument I summarized in my recent post, Barriers to macroevolution: what the proteins say, demonstrates beyond reasonable doubt that unguided mechanisms could not have given rise to protein folds that we find in living creatures’ body proteins, in the space of just four billion years. I have also pointed out that Dr. Eugene Koonin’s peer-reviewed article, The Cosmological Model of Eternal Inflation and the Transition from Chance to Biological Evolution in the History of Life (Biology Direct 2 (2007): 15, doi:10.1186/1745-6150-2-15) makes a very strong case that the probability of a living thing capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution – or what Dr. Koonin refers to as a coupled translation-replication system – emerging in our observable universe during the course of its history is astronomically low: 1 in 10^1,018 is Dr. Koonin’s estimate, using a “toy model” that makes deliberately optimistic assumptions. Finally, I have argued that Dr. Robin Collins’ essay, The Teleological Argument rules out the infinite multiverse hypothesis which Dr. Koonin proposes in order to explain the unlikely emergence of life in our universe: as Dr. Koonin argues, a multiverse would need to be specially fine-tuned in order to produce even one universe like our own. If Dr. Axe’s and Dr. Koonin’s estimates are correct, and if we cannot fall back on the hypothesis of a multiverse in order to shorten the odds against life emerging, then the only rational inference that we can make, based on what we currently know, is that the first living thing was designed, and that the protein folds we find in living creatures were also designed.

Now, Keith S might object that these estimates could be wrong – and indeed, they could. For that matter, the currently accepted age of the universe (13.798 billion years) could be totally wrong too, but I don’t lose any sleep over that fact. In everyday life, we make decisions based on what we currently know. If Keith S wants to argue that one can reasonably doubt the inference that living things were designed, then he needs to explain why the estimates I’ve cited above could be mistaken – and by a very large margin, at that.

Recently, Keith S has mentioned a new book by Dr. Andreas Wagner, titled, The Arrival of the Fittest: Solving Evolution’s Greatest Puzzle. I haven’t read the book yet, but let me say this: if the book makes a scientifically plausible case, using quantitative estimates, that life in all its diversity could have emerged on Earth over the space of just 3.8 billion years, then I will cheerfully change my mind and admit I was wrong in maintaining that it had to have been designed. As John Maynard Keynes famously remarked, “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”

For that matter, I try to keep an open mind about the recent discovery of soft tissue in dinosaur bones (see here and here). Personally, I think it’s a very odd finding, which is hard to square with the scientifically accepted view that these bones are millions of years old, but at the present time, I think the preponderance of geological and astronomical arguments in favor of an old Earth is so strong that this anomaly, taken alone, would be insufficient to overthrow my belief in an old cosmos. Still, I could be wrong. Science does not offer absolute certitude, and it has never claimed to.

Conclusion

To sum up: statements about the CSI of a system are retrospective, and should be made only after we have independently calculated the probability of a system emerging via unguided (random or non-random) processes, based on what we currently know. After these calculations have been performed, one may legitimately infer that the system was designed – even while admitting that should subsequent evidence come to light that would force a drastic revision of the probability calculations, one would have to revise one’s views on whether that system was designed.

Are we all on the same page now?

Comments
vjtorley @ 261
The most efficient search method would probably be something like a binary search. Perhaps that’s why living things are ordered in ONHs – it cuts down on search time,
Let's say the binary search gives a list of billion process (a conservative estimate as ID feels pretty much every cellular process is improbable) which needs to be attended to in the next 10 minutes, now, some processes needs to be fixed with in seconds - like a protein fold which folds in seconds , some folds can wait for few minutes, so this list has to be searched again to find processes which require immediate attention. According to Demski's Law of Conservation of information, only random search is best search:
In general, conservation of information says that when a more difficult search gets displaced by an easier search, the probability of finding the target by first finding the easier search and then using the easier search to find the target is no greater, and often is less, than the probability of finding the target directly with the more difficult search. - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/conservation_of063671.html
So as you can see, the search space is very large and with random search, searching for priority process that needs to be fixed is beyond the UPB. Hence ID agent can't act within ID law. Taking this further,the mimimum number of ID agents that can provide a 90% probability of getting service (attention to processes) for just 30,000 process is 3,069. IOW, Minimize the capacity required for Binomial Distribution with n = 30,000 p=0.1 For a 99.9% 'service' probability, minimum 3,162 agents will be required. Imagine how much will be required for a billion process ! Given that ID is based on 'improbabilities' of evolutionary process, isn't it ironic that IDers are on a side which is far more improbable than Evolutionary + NS process ?Me_Think
November 21, 2014
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KeithS to VJT
Here’s the funniest part. Dembski writes this in the preface to No Free Lunch: The subtitle, Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased without Intelligence, refers to the form of information, known as specified complexity or complex specified information, that is increasingly coming to be regarded as a reliable empirical marker of purpose, intelligence, and design. That’s right. CSI, aka specified complexity, cannot be purchased without intelligence, according to Dembski’s chosen subtitle. The very cover of No Free Lunch contradicts the claim you just made about CSI.
Clearly, you have a problem understanding the context of the quote you just cited. You can’t get details from summaries, which are not designed to answer every mindless objection that a Darwinst could possibly conceive, especially when it comes from one who reads an author as uncharitably as you do. There can be no doubt the CSI comes in degrees for the simple reason that complexity and specificity come in degrees. For Dembski, low CSI can be purchased by nature, but high CSI cannot. It is the threshold of 500 bits that draws the line between high and low. This is just common sense and should not even requite documentation. Nevertheless, the key quote from Dembski comes here:
"In The Design Inference I justify a more stringent universal probability bound of 10^-150 based on the number of elementary particles in the observable universe, the duration of the observable universe until its heat death and the Planck time. A probability bound of 10^-150 translates to 500 bits of information. Accordingly, specified information of complexity greater than 500 bits cannot reasonably be attributed to chance. This 500-bit ceiling on the amount of specified complexity attributable to chance constitutes a universal complexity bound for CSI." William A. Dembski, Intelligent Design, (Downers Grove: Intervarsity Press, 2001), p. 166
If there is a 500 bit ceiling on the amount of specified complexity that cannot reasonably attributed to chance, then it should be obvious that there are “amounts” of specified complexity that fall below that threshold, which represents the amount of CSI that nature can produce. Again, this is clear from the fact that complexity and specificity come in degrees. Accordingly, it is easy for nature to produce 5 bits and almost impossible for nature to produce 499 bits. By the way, CSI not only comes in degrees, it can also be considered narrowly or broadly, as I explained earlier. Naturally, you ignored the point as you ignore all points that are not congenial with your inclinations. The solution to your problem is to read out of the text what is there (exegesis) and avoid reading into the text what you wish was there (eisegesis).StephenB
November 21, 2014
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cantor #183,
Prediction based on KS’s posting history: he will not graciously admit his error. He will move the goalposts, or resort to obfuscation. Here’s your one (and perhaps only) chance to prove me wrong, KS.
You apparently didn't notice that WJM was addressing Adapa, not me. After your expertise bluff, and now this, I'm beginning to doubt that you can do anything right.keith s
November 21, 2014
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SB: Your last post showed marked signs of improvement. Keep it up.
Nah, I provided too much detail.
Yes, you copied my post word for word and didn't try to say anything on your own. That was the improvement.StephenB
November 21, 2014
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keiths:
The very cover of No Free Lunch contradicts the claim you just made about CSI.
lol. That one is just too good to pass up. Have you read the cover of Wagner's book lately?Mung
November 20, 2014
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Moose Dr, Dembski isn't talking about CSI(md). He's talking about CSI(wad). And his claim is right there on the cover of the book: "Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased without Intelligence." In the preface, he states that specified complexity and CSI are the same thing. Therefore, according to Dembski, CSI(wad) cannot be purchased without intelligence.
We both agree, I think, that “random” can be ruled out as a generator for CSI(md).
Probably, but could you supply a definition for CSI(md) so that I can be sure?
If a case can be made, and I think it can, that RM+NS cannot produce CSI(md), and if no other reasonable candidate can be found (I know of none)...
I think you'll find it harder to make that case then you're anticipating, but give it a shot (after defining CSI(md)) and I'll offer my feedback.
...then Dembski’s statement above is not unreasonable.
I'm not saying that it's unreasonable. I'm saying that it contradicts what vjtorley claimed about CSI, and it also contradicts what Dembski writes elsewhere.keith s
November 20, 2014
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Stephen B (145) "In all known cases where CSI is produced in an object, an intelligent agent was the cause. This object contains CSI, Therefore, this object was probably designed." Stephen B, the above case strongly resembles the case that should be made. I would think, however, that one should specifically reference the candidate alternative source of CSI -- RM+NS. However, to prove that RM+NS cannot produce CSI, you cannot define CSI as "information that could not have been produced by RM+NS". Rather, the definition of CSI must reside outside of its cause so that the validity of the cause can be considered.Moose Dr
November 20, 2014
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Keith S, "That’s right. CSI, aka specified complexity, cannot be purchased without intelligence, according to Dembski’s chosen subtitle." Keith, on this one I am not convinced that you are right. I strongly agree with you that one cannot embed the ID conclusion in one's definition of CSI. However, if Dembski makes a good case in NFL to show that CSI(md) cannot be gained via any unguided natural means, then the statement is valid. I have not had the luxury of reading NFL, but I would presume that Dembski has done exactly that. I also am quite convinced that such a case. (Going for "all unguided natural means" seems a bit rich for me, but claiming it to be so for RM+NS seems quite reasonable. I'd even except all known unguided natural means.) We both agree, I think, that "random" can be ruled out as a generator for CSI(md). If a case can be made, and I think it can, that RM+NS cannot produce CSI(md), and if no other reasonable candidate can be found (I know of none) then Dembski's statement above is not unreasonable.Moose Dr
November 20, 2014
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Vincent #260, You're making a huge mistake. You're trusting Dembski not to contradict himself. I'm not surprised at the quotes you found. You're confirming a point I made to Winston Ewert a few days ago:
Winston, Don’t forget that Dembski is notorious for contradicting himself. His writings resemble the Bible in that respect. :-) You found a passage that supports your claim, but there are many others that contradict it.
He doesn't just contradict himself between books -- he even does so within books. He is astonishingly sloppy and undisciplined in his thinking and writing. If Dembski is considered one of ID's "leading lights", it's no wonder that the movement is in such bad shape. Here's the funniest part. Dembski writes this in the preface to No Free Lunch:
The subtitle, Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased without Intelligence, refers to the form of information, known as specified complexity or complex specified information, that is increasingly coming to be regarded as a reliable empirical marker of purpose, intelligence, and design.
That's right. CSI, aka specified complexity, cannot be purchased without intelligence, according to Dembski's chosen subtitle. The very cover of No Free Lunch contradicts the claim you just made about CSI. So no, I will not retract my claim. However, I am quite willing to say Dembski is an appallingly unprofessional and careless thinker, especially for someone with PhDs in math and philosophy. Wouldn't you agree?keith s
November 20, 2014
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Me_Think, You write:
There are billion species with trillions of process. How will an ID agent search for millions of process (protein folding, macro evolution,over 2 point mutations, metabolism etc) that needs to be fixed in this vast search space? The probability of sampling the target space will definitely be over the UPB. Even if the search is directed, the processes needing corrections or directions is still too large. Also note that the fixing/directing has to be repeated in a vast area of billions of species. This isn't a flippant question.
Quick answer: if the Designer is capable of creating a cosmos, He is surely capable of creating a record of species and their genes that He can search. The most efficient search method would probably be something like a binary search. Perhaps that's why living things are ordered in ONHs - it cuts down on search time, Also, I see no need for the Designer to fix what He has made, but of course He can augment it. Finally, the Designer may be linked to the cosmos in such a way that He gets instant feedback if something goes amiss. Got to go now. Hope that helps.vjtorley
November 20, 2014
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Hi Keith S, I'd like to respond to your comment #125. I've only got time for a short response now, as I'm in an Internet cafe. You wrote:
CSI never consists of less than 500 bits of specified information. Dembski writes:
Alternatively, since a universal probability bound of 1 in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, (T,E) constitutes CSI because T subsumes E, T is detachable from E, and T measures at least 500 bits of information. No Free Lunch, p. 144 [Emphasis added]
What is going on around here? First I have to educate Barry about CSI, and now you, of all people? ID proponents: If you're depending on the critics to teach ID to you, you're doing it wrong. If you care about ID, then learn about it.
I've never read No Free Lunch, as I didn't get involved with the Intelligent Design movement until around 2007. Most of what I've learned about ID has been online: books are a luxury item for me. I can however categorically state that you've got Dembski wrong. The term complex specified information (or CSI) is defined by Intelligent Design advocates William Dembski and Jonathan Wells in their book, The Design of Life: Discovering Signs of Intelligence in Biological Systems (The Foundation for Thought and Ethics, Dallas, 2008), as being equivalent to specified complexity (p. 311), which is then defined as follows:
An event or object exhibits specified complexity provided that (1) the pattern to which it conforms is a highly improbable event (i.e. has high PROBABILISTIC COMPLEXITY) and (2) the pattern itself is easily described (i.e. has low DESCRIPTIVE COMPLEXITY). (2008, p. 320)
Now, that might be regarded as ambiguous: you might interpret "high PROBABILISTIC COMPLEXITY" as meaning "over 500 bits" (the cut-off we use to infer design). But in an earlier book which I can access online, titled, Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science and Theology (Intervarsity Press, 1999) Dr. Dembski is much clearer. Here's what he says on p. 174:
Selection and mutation operate with no memory of the past or knowledge of the future - there's only the present organism with its ability to survive and reproduce given its environment. Consequently whatever CSI mutation and selection generate must be generated in a single generation.
Never mind his argument - I don't care whether you agree with it or not. The point is that Dembski clearly says that mutation and selection generate CSI. Hence it is false of you to claim that if something has CSI, then it is designed by definition. There's more. On p. 178, Dr. Dembski writes:
But the CSI of a flagellum far exceeds 500 bits. What's more, selection, if operating for only one generation, merely kills off organisms that lack some feature (in this case, the flagellum). Selection operating for only one generation does not produce novelty - all the novelty is produced by random variation acting on inheritance. Whatever CSI the environment may hold, selection is therefore incapable of transmitting it in a single generation. Similarly, since selection is non-teleological, it can't transmit CSI over multiple generations either. It follows that inheritance with modification has to produce a flagellum in a single generation. But this is infeasible. This is asking law and chance to produce over 500 bits of CSI. This would violate the law of conservation of information.
Notice that Dembski says it would violate the law of conservation of information for law and chance to generate over 500 bits of CSI. The clear implication is that it would not violate the law of conservation of information for law and chance to generate 499 bits of CSI. One last point. Dr. Dembski says a flagellum has over 500 bits of CSI. Thus CSI is measured in bits. If something can have 500 bits of CSI, it must be able to possible for a thing to have 499. Thus it makes no sense to claim that CSI never consists of less than 500 bits of specified information. I hope you will retract your claim.vjtorley
November 20, 2014
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StephenB Adapa Hey, I’m picking up this “how to argue like an IDer” pretty good, wouldn’t you say? :) Your last post showed marked signs of improvement. Keep it up. Nah, I provided too much detail. The next real step is to declare myself the winner, claim your argument has been crushed, and have the dancing cockroaches crawl out from beneath their rock to sing my praises. Easy!Adapa
November 20, 2014
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Adapa
Hey, I’m picking up this “how to argue like an IDer” pretty good, wouldn’t you say? :)
Your last post showed marked signs of improvement. Keep it up.StephenB
November 20, 2014
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Let me try more StephenB logic:
My argument is logically and symmetrically constructed. Yours is disjointed at every level. Step 1 of my argument is based on a true claim and describes the effect or the thing produced (watered lawns) in relation to its cause (The Intelligent agent) Step 1 of your caricature is based on a false claim and describes the thing produced as both a potential cause ("CSI") and as an effect ("CSI"), which immediately turns it into a hopeless muddle. Step 2 of my argument is a concrete example of an element described in the first step (an object that waters lawns) Step 2 of your argument introduces a new factor (CSI measuring) and is not, therefore, an example of the first step. Further, "CSI" is described as a potential cause or the power to do something (“create specified complexity”) Step 3 of my argument follows from steps one and two as surely as night follows the day. Step 3 of your argument takes the CSI, which was described in level 2 as a potential cause, and elevates it to the status of an effect (“the CSI was designed.”) Also, step 3 doesn’t even come close to following from steps 1 and 2.
Hey, I'm picking up this "how to argue like an IDer" pretty good, wouldn't you say? :)Adapa
November 20, 2014
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248 Adapa November 20, 2014 at 9:25 pm a lickspittle to this gang of hopeless scientific incompetents?
The evolution of Adapa!cantor
November 20, 2014
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StephenB My argument is logically and symmetrically constructed. Then so is mine since I followed your exact reasoning at every step. My claims have every bit the validity of yours. That means either we're both correct or both very wrong. Why do you think your own argument is so putrid?Adapa
November 20, 2014
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Adapa
Tell me StephenB, what’s the difference in logic between In all known cases where CSI is produced in an object, an intelligent agent was the cause. This object contains CSI, Therefore, this object was probably designed and In all known cases where a lawn watering capability is produced in an object, an intelligent agent was the cause. This rain cloud contains a lawn watering capability, Therefore, this rain cloud was probably designed
My argument is logically and symmetrically constructed. Yours is disjointed at every level. Step 1 of my argument is based on a true claim and describes the effect or the thing produced (CSI) in relation to its cause (The Intelligent agent) Step 1 of your caricature is based on a false claim and describes the thing produced as both a potential cause (lawn-watering capability) and as an effect (the thing produced), which immediately turns it into a hopeless muddle. Step 2 of my argument is a concrete example of an element described in the first step (an object with CSI) Step 2 of your argument introduces a new factor (rain cloud) and is not, therefore, an example of the first step. Further, rain cloud is described as a potential cause or the power to do something ("contains water producing capability") Step 3 of my argument follows from steps one and two as surely as night follows the day. Step 3 of your argument takes the rain cloud, which was described in level 2 as a potential cause, and elevates it to the status of an effect ("the rain cloud was designed.") Also, step 3 doesn't even come close to following from steps 1 and 2.
Speak up, we can’t hear you. :)
I don't think a higher decibel level could help you.StephenB
November 20, 2014
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Adapa Sorry I didn't read the thread propelyMe_Think
November 20, 2014
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Me_Think Silver Asiatic Just so you understand, Adapa said lawns [only]. Rain ‘waters’ everything it falls on, so in a way if lawns are to be specifically watered, you can’t depend on an isolated cloud to search and position itself on lawns. Actually I said only known sources of lawn watering are intelligently designed. WJM assures me that's correct because even though we have lots of evidence for natural rain storms we don't know they're natural. It's just "a historical, abductive, theoretical inference at best, an assumption at worst.” WJM tells me his logic is never wrong so why shouldn't I believe him?Adapa
November 20, 2014
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William J Murray says the guy that won’t even support his own assertions, and then blames others for how hard it would be to support them if he were to try. WJM you should talk to StephenB. He thinks your logic is stupid and that people using your methods are not capable of rational thought. Of course he's not alone in that evaluation but still...Adapa
November 20, 2014
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Adapa said:
SA doesn’t it ever embarrass you to be such a lickspittle to this gang of hopeless scientific incompetents? It should.
... says the guy that won't even support his own assertions, and then blames others for how hard it would be to support them if he were to try.William J Murray
November 20, 2014
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Silver Asiatic Just so you understand, Adapa said lawns [only]. Rain 'waters' everything it falls on, so in a way if lawns are to be specifically watered, you can't depend on an isolated cloud to search and position itself on lawns.Me_Think
November 20, 2014
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Silver Asiatic don’t feel sorry at all. That was devastating and very enjoyable. SA doesn't it ever embarrass you to be such a lickspittle to this gang of hopeless scientific incompetents? It should.Adapa
November 20, 2014
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StephenB
Whenever your adversary is making a fool of himself, get out of the way and let him do it.
It's especially true when efforts to correct him are rebuffed. The best thing he could do for his own cause is just shut up. But until then, we can just stand back and watch the show.Silver Asiatic
November 20, 2014
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StephenB #238 LOL - don't feel sorry at all. That was devastating and very enjoyable. :-)Silver Asiatic
November 20, 2014
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StephenB SB: False. There are known causes for a watered lawn that are not intelligent agents. Rain, for example, has been known to water lawns. Why are you ignoring WJM's reasoning that refutes your claim? “Even if we posit arguendo that there is plenty of positive evidence that natural processes “can” produce that rain, it is not known that it did. It is a historical, abductive, theoretical inference at best, an assumption at worst.” Are you claiming WJM's reasoning is wrong?Adapa
November 20, 2014
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Tell me StephenB, what's the difference in logic between
In all known cases where CSI is produced in an object, an intelligent agent was the cause. This object contains CSI, Therefore, this object was probably designed
and
In all known cases where a lawn watering capability is produced in an object, an intelligent agent was the cause. This rain cloud contains a lawn watering capability, Therefore, this rain cloud was probably designed
Speak up, we can't hear you. :)Adapa
November 20, 2014
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SB: False. There are known causes for a watered lawn that are not intelligent agents. Rain, for example, has been known to water lawns. Adapa
That’s intelligently designed rain from intelligently designed rain clouds. ID logic says so.
Whenever your adversary is making a fool of himself, get out of the way and let him do it.StephenB
November 20, 2014
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StephenB Adapa I see you still can’t find the sack to address either the “lightning” or “rain cloud” examples. You would have been far better off if I had not addressed it You mean you would be far better off. Then you wouldn't have show just how dumb and illogical the same line of reasoning is when you use it as your ID story. But you stepped in it big time, so thank you!Adapa
November 20, 2014
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Adapa
I see you still can’t find the sack to address either the “lightning” or “rain cloud” examples.
You would have been far better off if I had not addressed it. Now everyone knows that you are not capable of rational thought.StephenB
November 20, 2014
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