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Thanks for the CSI Debate; Back to Work for Me

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Thank you to all who have participated in the CSI debate over the last few days, especially Winston, vjtorley, keiths, KF, HeKS. It has been an illuminating discussion. Thanks especially to vjt for his effort to synthesize the various positions. I have a real job and I have already spent far too much time away from it on this subject, but I wanted to address one final topic before heading back to work.

Some of our opponents have criticized my “challenge” as being impossible to meet “by definition.” They say that CSI is “defined” as that which is beyond the reach of chance/law processes, and therefore it is literally meaningless to set up a challenge that calls for a demonstration of chance/law processes creating CSI. Of all the responses to this objection (including my own), I think HeKS had the best. He writes:

What needs to be understood is that this does not mean, by definition, that it could not have been produced by any natural process. It is not logically impossible that some natural process could cause the effect in question. Rather, the argument is that we have not actually observed any natural processes ever producing the types of specified effects in question and overcoming the astronomical odds against them doing so, but that we have observed – and do observe – intelligent agency bringing about those kinds of specified effects all the time.

Hence, the reasoning goes that if some effect is calculated to display a high degree of CSI on all chance hypotheses – or, put another away, is found to match an independent specification and also be astronomically improbable with respect to every known natural process that might be proposed to explain it – then design is tentatively considered to be a better explanation of the effect (being the only kind of cause known to be capable of producing it) than an appeal to extreme good fortune that would not be expected to happen even once in the entire history of the universe.

This is the important part:

There are at least two ways this inference could be falsified: [i.e., my challenge could be met]:

1) A natural process could be discovered that shows the effect not to be improbable, thereby falsifying the claim that it demonstrates CSI; or 2) A natural process could be demonstrated to bring about specified effects that are highly improbable with respect to that particular natural process, thereby falsifying the claim that CSI implies design for similar and lesser degrees of complexity (improbability).

This last paragraph articulates the intuition that lead to the challenge. For any specification that we BELIEVE to be beyond the capability of chance/law processes– 500 coins all heads, the first 20 lines of Hamlet, any meaningful English paragraph, etc., etc. – show that belief to be false by showing a chance/law process that has been actually observed creating the specification. The challenge will then have been met.

In other words, if a materialist were to show a chance/law process landing on what we believe to be a highly improbable specification, one of HeKS falsification criteria will have necessarily been met. The materialist will have shown either:

(1) that our belief that that the pattern was improbable given the chance hypothesis with respect to chance/law processes was wrong; or

(2) that even if the belief about low probability was correct, we were wrong to believe that only design can land on specifications with low probability.

Here is the flaw in the “by definition” argument. When we designate a pattern as having CSI one of the things we are saying is that based on our current understanding of all chance/law processes, the probability of those processes landing on the specification in question is astronomically low. The probability is not “defined” to be astronomically low. It is believed to be astronomically low. To meet the challenge, all the materialist has to do is demonstrate that that belief is false. When we make a design inference based on the existence of CSI, we are also saying that our best understanding of the cause of the specification is “design.” Another way to meet the challenge is to show that is not the best understanding, because chance/law forces have been observed creating the improbable specification. Nothing about the definition of CSI precludes that demonstration.

Comments
keiths:
No. Don’t confuse information with CSI.
ok. Don't confuse Shannon's Measure of Information with information. Fair deal?Mung
November 21, 2014
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13 Adapa November 18, 2014 at 6:36 pm What in the world is a “materialist” forum? . It's where you go to get your head re-filled with mush after your blind materialist faith has been shaken here at UD.cantor
November 20, 2014
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Bob OH:
stochastic processes have both random & non-random components.
That is your opinion and it is unsupportable.Joe
November 20, 2014
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keith s:
Don’t confuse information with CSI.
LoL! CSI is information in the standard use of the word- CSI is simply defined as information that is specified, ie used in the standard sense of meaning and function, and also complex, ie also pertaining to the standard use:
"Complexity measures arise whenever we assign numbers to degrees of complication. A reference class of possibilities will often admit varying degrees of complication, ranging from extremely simple to extremely complicated." Wm. Dembski, "No Free Lunch", page 141 "It follows that information can be complex, specified or both. Information that is both complex and specified will be called complex specified information, or CSI for short." Ibid 141-42
Joe
November 20, 2014
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Moose Dr @ 69,
First, CSI as I define is does not remove all Darwinian processes before calculating This is a really dumb statement in light of my definition of CSI. CSI as I define it enumerates the difference between precision DNA and junk DNA. I seek a term, ‘happen to like CSI, that simply defines the difference between precision DNA and “junk” (random) DNA. Information, my area of expertise as a software developer, is a high precision phenomenon
Get off yor high horse. CSI is not your term. Who the heck cares how you define it? If you want to discuss your own CSI, start by defining what you mean by 'Precision DNA' and 'Junk(random) DNA', for all we know you may have some completely different definations, then pick a DNA ( as defined by scientific community - not your own 'precision DNA'), and show how to calculate your own CSI. KF: Take note - we now have CSI, dFSCI, FSCI/O and now a new Mosse Dr CSI. Me_Think
November 19, 2014
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Keith S (57) "What Dembski does is take a probability and convert it into bits using a negative logarithm (base 2). It has nothing to do with the actual informational content of the sequence or structure in question." Why must the simple be made so darn complicated. I have changed my terminology in all future references to CSI. Unless I am talking about Dr. Dembski's definition, I am using my definition, and will reference it as CSI(md). Maybe at least you and I can then have an actual discussion of whether RM+NS is truly capable of producing the stuff. The second question, of course, is whether the patterns in DNA are consistent with what RM+NS would produce.Moose Dr
November 19, 2014
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Me_think (58) "No one outside ID community adopts CSI as a design detector, so whatever the bits, it doesn’t matter.Moreover, as you have seen in various posts, CSI is circular requiring you to eliminate all Darwinian and Natural processes before calculations." First, CSI as I define is does not remove all Darwinian processes before calculating. I think that doing so is a discussion stopper. I seek a term, 'happen to like CSI, that simply defines the difference between precision DNA and "junk" (random) DNA. "No one outside ID community adopts CSI as a design detector, so whatever the bits, it doesn’t matter." This is a really dumb statement in light of my definition of CSI. CSI as I define it enumerates the difference between precision DNA and junk DNA. Whether anyone uses this term as a design detector or not, having this idea understood is mandatory to have the discussion about design. My sense from the ID crowd is that they have made a careful, concocted definition of CSI so that they cannot be debated. My sense of the NDE crowd is that you pretend that there is no real difference between precision DNA and junk DNA. Y'all's sense of "information" seems so weak it is pitiful! Information does not, by the way, begin and end with Shannon. Shannon worked for the phone company. He was trying to detect the difference between signal and noise. Information, my area of expertise as a software developer, is a high precision phenomenon where one small change can totally destroy meaning.Moose Dr
November 19, 2014
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I apologize if my comment felt like a brush-off.
Ignoring all that is going on in regards to the Theory of Intelligent Design and related models and theory is a sinister way to pretend to be defending science. I'm right now very disgusted by that being normal when religious agendas must come first before science.
You agree that even Behe doesn’t use his fellow IDer measure, so if you agree CSI is largely not useful, what other concept in ID do you think is useful to scientific community ?
I just didn't know how to program a scientific useful model from CSI. Until now I was largely undecided on its scientific merit. There are useful concepts already around in the "scientific community". But at this late point in the controversy you have several years of activity to catch up on. Here's around half of the info you most need to know: http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=546d64454ee64b10;act=ST;f=14;t=7420 http://www.kurzweilai.net/forums/profile/gary-s-gaulin https://disqus.com/home/user/gary_gaulin http://www.kcfs.org/phpBB3/search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=Gary+S.+Gaulin&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=a&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
You might have noticed in other threads that ID is no more than design detector. If the basis on which it detects design (CSI) is not useful, how can you say the concept of ID is useful to any one ?
The concept of ID was ALREADY useful to the scientific community, especially in how-to science, AI, and the future of the ID controversy. Ignoring all that only goes to show how out of touch with science reality the anti-ID movement actually is.Gary S. Gaulin
November 19, 2014
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Me_Think
You agree that even Behe doesn’t use his fellow IDer measure, so if you agree CSI is largely not useful, what other concept in ID do you think is useful to scientific community ?
Have you read Behe?
how can you say the concept of ID is useful to any one ?
I would hope, for example, that the ID concept is quite useful to you since you seem to spend a lot of time here discussing it. I wouldn't imagine that you'd waste so much time on something that is totally useless. Right?Silver Asiatic
November 19, 2014
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Silver Asiatic @ 65 Oops. Sorry again Gary S. Gaulin. I didn't notice it was Silver Asiatic's response to you. Your comment @ 62 Here:
Michael Behe is equally important in the ID community and from what I’ve read of him, he doesn’t use CSI calculations in his design arguments.
Me_Think
November 19, 2014
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Me_Think
You agree that even Behe doesn’t use his fellow IDer measure
I didn't see where Gary Gaulin said that. Could you point me to the reference?Silver Asiatic
November 19, 2014
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Gary S. Gaulin @ 63, I apologize if my comment felt like a brush-off. You agree that even Behe doesn't use his fellow IDer measure, so if you agree CSI is largely not useful, what other concept in ID do you think is useful to scientific community ? You might have noticed in other threads that ID is no more than design detector. If the basis on which it detects design (CSI) is not useful, how can you say the concept of ID is useful to any one ?Me_Think
November 19, 2014
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Me_Think:
Of course more science is happening outside the ID community.
It figures that all I would get is a brush-off, from another powerless Black Knight.Gary S. Gaulin
November 19, 2014
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Gary S. Gaulin
More is happening outside the ID community than you are giving due credit for.
That's an important point. I think by ID community, you mean that which is limited to the Discovery Institute. Intelligent Design proponents can be found outside of that community and there are a variety of ideas that support the same design inference. Some people mistakenly think that ID is limited to what William Dembski proposes. He certainly deserves credit as a founder of modern Intelligent Design thought, but he doesn't own the concept. Michael Behe is equally important in the ID community and from what I've read of him, he doesn't use CSI calculations in his design arguments. But there are many scientists, not affiliated with the Discovery Institute who accept the design inference.Silver Asiatic
November 19, 2014
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Gary S. Gaulin @ 60
More is happening outside the ID community than you are giving due credit for.
Of course more science is happening outside the ID community.Me_Think
November 19, 2014
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Me_Think:
No one outside ID community adopts CSI as a design detector, so whatever the bits, it doesn’t matter.
Scientifically useful IDeas matter very much, to science. More is happening outside the ID community than you are giving due credit for.Gary S. Gaulin
November 19, 2014
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Moose Dr @ 56 Sorry I misunderstood the question. My statement @ 58 stands for CSI calculations.Me_Think
November 19, 2014
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Moose Dr @ 56
Most individual genes within DNA contain more than 500 bits of information. There are about 10,000 genes that each exceed this size. So you conclude then that DNA is designed?
No one outside ID community adopts CSI as a design detector, so whatever the bits, it doesn't matter.Moreover, as you have seen in various posts, CSI is circular requiring you to eliminate all Darwinian and Natural processes before calculations.Me_Think
November 19, 2014
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Moose Dr,
Most individual genes within DNA contain more than 500 bits of information. There are about 10,000 genes that each exceed this size. So you conclude then that DNA is designed?
No. Don't confuse information with CSI. 500 bits of information is not at all the same as 500 bits of CSI. CSI- "complex specified information" -- is a misnomer. It should really be called "low specified probability", or something like that. What Dembski does is take a probability and convert it into bits using a negative logarithm (base 2). It has nothing to do with the actual informational content of the sequence or structure in question.keith s
November 19, 2014
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Keith S, "it just needs to be so high that no reasonable person would fail to infer design when it is exceeded." Most individual genes within DNA contain more than 500 bits of information. There are about 10,000 genes that each exceed this size. So you conclude then that DNA is designed?Moose Dr
November 19, 2014
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StephenB, "Surely, you understand that this threshold is reached gradually–and with progressively greater degrees of improbability–and that generating the 499th bit is almost as incredibly unlikely as as generating the 500th bit." Yes, I do. However, read some of the comments above. This does not appear to be clearly understood.Moose Dr
November 19, 2014
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Keith s:
I think Dembski makes a lot of mistakes,
As in Darwinian Theory: a Theory like William's tentative CSI Theory only has to be close enough, not perfect.Gary S. Gaulin
November 19, 2014
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Moose Dr, I think Dembski makes a lot of mistakes, but I will say this in his defense. He has to set some kind of threshold below which design is not recognized. No matter where he sets it, it's going to seem artificial: N bits counts as 'designed', and N-1 bits doesn't. What he's trying to do is to set the threshold high enough so that no one could reasonably deny design when the threshold is exceeded. There's nothing magic about the exact 500 bit value (though Dembski does try to justify it); it just needs to be so high that no reasonable person would fail to infer design when it is exceeded.keith s
November 19, 2014
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Does anyone want to help computer model CSI?Gary S. Gaulin
November 19, 2014
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Moose Dr.
My RM+NS system can generate 499 bits of CSI like information, but it is radically incapable of producing the 500th bit — so has declared the great Dembsky. Are you guys kidding!
In any such analysis, the scientist must draw the line somewhere between what is considered to be possible and what is considered to be virtually impossible. Otherwise, no measurements can take place and no conclusions can be drawn. In this case, it is 500 bits. Surely, you understand that this threshold is reached gradually--and with progressively greater degrees of improbability--and that generating the 499th bit is almost as incredibly unlikely as as generating the 500th bit.StephenB
November 19, 2014
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My RM+NS system can generate 499 bits of CSI like information, but it is radically incapable of producing the 500th bit -- so has declared the great Dembsky. Are you guys kidding! DNA uses a base 4 system, equivalent to 2 bits of information per nucleotide. So a gene that is 249 nucleotides long is within the purview of RM+NS, but a gene that is 250 nucleotides long is not realistically possible via RM+NS!? How 'bout the C in CSI is a measure of complexity with a unit of bits. How 'bout S in the CSI is a qualitative measure of whether these bits specify something real. How 'bout the available flexibility of the specification, how much bit twiddling allows the specified item to still be the same thing subtracts from the value of C. How 'bout lets take how the CSI came to be, off the table altogether. If the CSI rating of the thing is 2 bits, well, coin flip is quite capable of producing it. If the CSI rating is 20, well, pretty darn lucky coin flip -- time to look for mechanisms other than random chance. How 'bout a CSI rating of 100 is well beyond what we would expect from an honest coin toss. Shall we say "not in a million years". How 'bout we recognise that the higher the number the less likely that it is the result of an honest coin toss. How 'bout we recognize that the value of 500 is set to be in the zone of the stratosphere, the "didn't happen" zone. How 'bout we take any discussion of how CSI came to be, and only identify it by its characteristics: Number of bytes of data, fact that it specifies something, amount of precision in the specification reduces the complexity rating. Oh yea, can't do that, the great Dembski has declared it! PS: I have a lot of respect for Dr. Dembski's work. 'Just seems to me that he is held high like a prophet. I would love it if he engaged in this conversation. I would love it if he explained to me why CSI needed such a convoluted definition. If its because RM+NS is capable of making CSI as I have defined it, then my belief in ID is Badly damaged.Moose Dr
November 19, 2014
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44 centre streamNovember 19, 2014 at 1:11 pm What a out [sic] “peer reviewed scientific journal” does your 150 IQ not understand?
The truth about "peer review": https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-economist-weighs-in-on-broken-peer-review/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+uncommondescent%2FJCWn+%28Uncommon+Descent%29 http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/41223/title/Snail-Revival-Raises-Peer-Review-Debate/ https://uncommondescent.com/peer-review/from-the-scientist-science-is-an-elitist-sport-now/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+uncommondescent%2FJCWn+%28Uncommon+Descent%29 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/another-reason-why-peer-review-is-hard-to-fix/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+uncommondescent%2FJCWn+%28Uncommon+Descent%29 http://salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo22/bunk-science-peer-review.php https://uncommondescent.com/peer-review/nobelist-randy-shekman-boycotting-nature-cell-and-science/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+uncommondescent%2FJCWn+%28Uncommon+Descent%29 http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/09/how-journals-nature-science-cell-damage-science https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/grate-moments-in-peer-review-through-history/#comment-485471 https://uncommondescent.com/peer-review/retract-that-sir-or-face-the-consequences-er-maybe/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+uncommondescent%2FJCWn+%28Uncommon+Descent%29 http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/38743/title/Top-10-Retractions-of-2013/ http://www.psypost.org/2013/12/is-peer-review-systemically-misogynist-21881 https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/moderator-for-science-mag-article-on-how-dna-studies-shake-tree-of-life-bans-discussion-of-whether-evolution-is-true/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+uncommondescent%2FJCWn+%28Uncommon+Descent%29 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/our-moral-and-intellectual-superiors-ask-can-creationists-be-allowed-to-be-scientists/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/another-nobelist-denounces-peer-review/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/rob-sheldon-comments-on-nobelist-sydney-brenner-trashing-peer-review/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/peer-review-compared-to-ranking-the-quality-of-artists/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/another-nobelist-denounces-peer-review/ https://uncommondescent.com/peer-review/peer-review-researcher-admits-to-enhanced-images/ https://uncommondescent.com/peer-review/why-ask-nature-questions-when-we-dont-want-her-answers/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/hank-campbell-on-the-corruption-of-peer-review/ https://uncommondescent.com/peer-review/senior-scientist-on-the-real-threat-to-the-scientific-method/ https://uncommondescent.com/peer-review/peer-review-not-publishing-social-science-studies-with-null-results-harms-public-discourse/ https://uncommondescent.com/genetics/peer-review-brain-genetics-paper-on-schizophrenia-retracted/ https://uncommondescent.com/extinction/peer-review-snail-declared-extinct-turns-up-again-no-retraction-issued/ https://uncommondescent.com/peer-review/heres-a-great-weekend-read-on-science-peer-reviewed-science/cantor
November 19, 2014
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Joe - stochastic processes have both random & non-random components. If you've ever studied them then you'd know: that's why we talk about diffusion with drift (for example). The drift term is non.random, but the process is still stochastic.Bob O'H
November 19, 2014
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And I just made a claim in writing that Demski is wrong.
And we know that you are deluded and ignorant. Deal with that.Joe
November 19, 2014
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Joe: "My point is that Dembski made a claim- in writing. And tat claim proves that you and your ilk are totally wrong about CSI. Deal with it." And I just made a claim in writing that Demski is wrong. Deal with it.centrestream
November 19, 2014
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