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Child Rape in a Materialist World

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Here are the facts concerning the Roman Polanski case:  Polanski gave a Quaalude to a 13 year-old child; instructed her to get naked and enter a Jacuzzi; refused to take her home when she asked; performed oral sex on her as she asked him to stop; raped her (no, not the “statutory” kind, the “forcible” kind); and sodomized her.  In a plea bargain Polanski pled to unlawful sex with a minor.

As is common knowledge, Polanski has his defenders because he has made some terrific movies.  For example, critic Tom Shales says:  “There is, apparently, more to this crime than it would seem, and it may sound like a hollow defense, but in Hollywood I am not sure a 13-year-old is really a 13-year-old.”

Here’s today’s question:  “Is it wrong in all times and at all places (even Hollywood) for a 44 year-old man to drug, rape and sodomize a 13 year-old girl?”

For our materialist friends who answer “yes” to the question (as I hope you will), I have a follow-up question:  “How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 UPDATE:

At first the materialists dodged my second (and much more important) question.  But then a brave soul who calls himself “camanintx” took up for the materialists the gauntlet I had thrown down, and we had the following exchange:

 

Barry:  How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 

camanintx:  Because the society in which I and Polanski (at the time) live in define it as such. Had Polanski lived in 6th century Arabia, he probably would have been treated differently, no?

 

Barry:   Let’s assume for the sake of argument that drugging, raping and sodomizing a young girl was considered moral behavior in Arabia between the years 501 and 600 AD [I by no means concede that, but will accept it arguendo].  On the basis of your response, camanintx, I assume you would say that the fact that it was considered moral behavior in the society in which it occurred, is in fact determinative of the morality of the behavior, and therefore if Polanski had done what he did in that place and time it would have been moral. Is that what you are saying?

 camanintx:  Since morality is a subjective term, yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 Thank you, camanintx, for that enlightening exchange.  Nietzsche would have been very proud of you for not flinching away from the nihilistic conclusions compelled by your premises.  You have truly gone “beyond good and evil.”  Roman Polanski was not immoral, must unlucky.  Cruel fate dictated that by the merest whim of fickle chance he happened to live in a society that, for whatever reason, condemns drugging, raping and sodomizing young girls.  If he had lived in a different society, what he did would not have been wrong.  Fortunately for the rest of us, your views remain in the minority (at least for now), and for that reason moral progress remains possible. 

 I invite our readers to evaluate camanintx’s views in light of our own very recent history in this country.  I grew up in the 1960’s in a state of the old Confederacy, and as I was growing up I heard about the condition of black people in earlier times.  Even as late as 1955, it was taken for granted in the southern United States that black people are inferior to white people and therefore have no claim to equal rights under the law.  They were turned away from the polls, made to sit in the back of public busses, and segregated into inferior schools, among a host of other indignities too numerous to catalogue here.  Now, the majority of the people in the South at the time considered this state of affairs to be altogether moral. 

 Think about that.  Under camanintx’s view the “is” of a society defines the “ought” of that society.  I assume camanintx is not a racist and that he personally believes that the conditions under which black people were forced to live in say, 1955 Alabama, were intolerable.  But if he had lived in Alabama in 1955 on what grounds could he have pressed for a change to the status quo?  He would have been in a quandary, because his premises compel him to affirm – as he did in response to my query – that the present state of affairs for a society DEFINES morality in that society. 

 Therefore, according to camanintx, if he had lived in Alabama in 1955, his logic would have compelled him to affirm that racial hatred and intolerance is fine and dandy, morally speaking.  The only thing he could have said is, “While I cannot say racial hatred and intolerance is in any sense “immoral,” I personally do not prefer it, and therefore we should change our laws and behavior to eliminate those blights on our land.”  To which, the all-too-easy response from a southern racist would have been:  “I prefer the status quo, and who is to say that your personal preference is better than mine.”  At this point camanintx would have been struck silent, because there is no answer to the southern racist’s rejoinder. 

 Which brings us back full circle to Roman Polanski.  Has anyone considered the irony of the materialists’ defense of Polanski’s actions?  Both of Polanski’s parents were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps.  His mother died at Auschwitz.  Never let us forget that the Nazis came to power in a fair election, and the people of Germany never revolted against their polices.  The “final solution” was perfectly lawful in the sense that it did not violate the internal laws of the nation in which it occurred.  Therefore, camanintx’s logic compels the conclusion that the “is” of the final solution defined the “ought” of the matter, and Polanski’s mother’s death at the hands of the Nazis was in no sense “immoral.”  The irony is that Polanski’s defenders are bringing to bear the same moral relativism that led to the death of Polanski’s mother.

 Sadly, I believe we are losing this battle.  Views like camanintx’s would have been almost literally unthinkable 30 or even 20 years ago.  Now they are commonplace.  How long before they are the majority?  The other day I saw a bumper sticker:  “So many Christians, so few lions.”  I am afraid; for myself, yes, but even more so for my children and grandchildren, whom, I fear, will grow up in a society where every last vestige of the Judeo-Christian ethic will have been jettisoned from our institutions.  That bumper sticker was unthinkable 30 years ago.  What will be “thinkable” 30 years hence that is unthinkable now?  We are going to find out, aren’t we?

Comments
CanuckianYankee, I guess I misunderstood, thinking that justification was another term for salvation. Of course, following a moral code cannot bring true morality, especially if you believe that the consequences of not following it will be dire. The only true morality is one in which you prefer the good as part of your own character, and wouldn't gain any pleasure from taking advantage of others or oppressing them in any way. And even though we may not have the perfect character of God, it is nonetheless the extent to which we are able to internalize that character that we become good. While we are in the stage of knowing God is watching, we are yet not spiritually mature. It seems to me that people have a natural tendency to take more care of their relationship with God than with their fellow man, and even though it might be primary, unless it is quickly followed by love and forgiveness and compassion toward one's fellow man then progress stops. The success of one's relationship with God or Grace is absolutely reflected in one's treatment of one's fellow man. And this is said several different ways in the New Testament. And basically, it is a matter of love, learning to love. So that means it is grace which opens our souls and our understanding, so that we are able to love rather than thinking others don't really exist in the same way that we ourselves do. I guess that there are several fairly decent arguments from reason for at least some morality, but the highest ideals such as reached by a saintly person, really only make sense in the context of a reality that includes a spiritual realm in which all beings are united with God and one another in a real way.avocationist
October 9, 2009
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#159 This still continues! My only point was that if one is trying to defend his life from an deadly attacker, the defender with a moral code will face a more complicated situation and consider more altruistic options than a defender with no morals at all, whose main concern is likely to be either fight or flight. I don't understand why you insist that someone who has not "apprehended the moral law" (which includes apparently devote Muslims) lacks a moral code or will be less inclined to consider altruistic options. You can have strong feelings about how you ought to act even you think it is just a matter of opinion. I can have strong feelings about what art should be preserved even though it is widely accepted that what is good art is a matter of opinion.Mark Frank
October 9, 2009
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camanintx,
Whether I agree with what other people think about what is right or wrong is not the question…
No, it very clearly was the question. So, what is the answer?
Just as we cannot make ourselves believe a lie, I don’t think we can make ourselves act in a way we personally feel is wrong. That is why people have to rationalize their actions before they commit them. Since people are perfectly capable of rationalizing just about anything, how can we say there is an objective standard to measure it against?
Clive already called you on your blatant naivety. I would say, in fact, you are being a hypocrite right there, i.e., doing something that you know is wrong… lying. Are you telling me that you have never done anything wrong that you knew was wrong even before you did it? If you answer "no", do you think that I or anyone on this planet will believe another word that proceeds from your mouth? That is beside the point of simple self refutation. You say that people have to rationalize first before they do a thing, which is admitting that people do things they know are wrong. You say, “Since people are perfectly capable of rationalizing just about anything, how can we say there is an objective standard to measure it against?” So, when we have rationalized something it becomes alright? If your child rationalizes why he/she did something you told them not to, do you forgo punishing them and say, “Well, since you didn't know it was wrong…?”Brent
October 9, 2009
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---Nakashima: "I realize that the conversation has moved on, but I am still puzzling over this statement of yours. I fail to see how ignorance or denial of natural moral law forces someone into either of these positions." My only point was that if one is trying to defend his life from an deadly attacker, the defender with a moral code will face a more complicated situation and consider more altruistic options than a defender with no morals at all, whose main concern is likely to be either fight or flight.StephenB
October 9, 2009
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---Steve-h: with all due respect, google “Koran” and “gambling”. I didn’t make these arguments up for a laugh. These are real objective truths as revealed by a prophet channelling an ultimate law-giver. The whole point is that the natural moral law does not depend on Divine revelation. It can be apprehended without any religious faith at all. Googling the Koran and "gambling", then, is irrelevant, especially since Islam doesn't does not accept the "inherent dignity of the human person," which is a staple of the natural moral law. So, you are barking up the wrong tree. As I said, the natural moral law is less concerned about gambling and more concerned about the behaviors and attitudes that are likely to inform it.StephenB
October 9, 2009
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Mr StephenB, If, yet again, I know nothing of the natural moral law, or if I don’t think I am bound to it, I cannot be moral. I can respond in only one of two ways—kill without mercy–or die like a coward. I realize that the conversation has moved on, but I am still puzzling over this statement of yours. I fail to see how ignorance or denial of natural moral law forces someone into either of these positions.Nakashima
October 9, 2009
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NZer @ 154
I suggest that if there is no God, there can be no “special revelation” to provide us with a foundation for morality, thus objective moral values cannot exist, period.
I would go further. Even if there is a God in what way are His moral prescriptions any more "objective" than yours or mine? What exactly is meant by "objective" in this context anyway?Seversky
October 9, 2009
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avocationist, My response was concerned with justification, not necessarily salvation. Justification from a Christian perspective is not found in following the moral code, because the moral code is imperfect. God's character is what is perfect. If we want to be justified by following any moral code, we should have the character of God. This is what I find unrealistic, because none of us has God's character perfectly. Christian morality is much more than simply the following of a moral code, because it is tied with an individual's relationship with God first, and also with his/her fellow humans. You asked how a non-materialist moral standard might work. I think in my answer I pointed out that a Christian moral standard works because it starts internally - it is concerned with a relationship with God, and not simply with the outward appearance of morality as following some moral code. The Christian is aware that God is always watching. The Christian is concerned with his/her relationship with God first, and with his/her relationship with others in conjuction with God - I think Francis Schaeffer and others posited that it is the vertical relationship between God and the individual that is primary, and the horizontal relationship between humans and other humans (or possibly also with other animals) that is secondary. The horizontal relationship is primary because the individual knows that the lawgiver is constantly aware of his/her behavior. It's not really legalistic, because he/she is also aware that grace is the real basis of the relationship, not law. But here is an important point. Our vertical relationship with God cannot be right if our horizontal relationships are not also right. When I mentioned about "What would Jesus do?" perhaps I could have clarified this better - what I meant is that the phrase seems to be popular today, and as such, it seems to be a bit besides the point of the Christian relationship with God. I would prefer something like "What has Jesus done?" This seems to be more in keeping with what Christian morality is about. The standard has already been kept - it's not a future "what if," but a past "already done." I think the whole point of morality is found in relationship - not in anything else. God desires relationship with us on certain terms. We can't meet nor keep those terms, so God met the terms Himself. This is what is meant by grace, and is the point that makes Christianity what it is. Morality has no connection apart from an understanding of this relationship. It is a feeble attempt when one approaches morality apart from God's character and person. It can't be done. History has pretty much proven to us that human morality lacks a standard defining the limits. Legally, the Nazi attrocity was valid, yet we all seem to sense that it was far beyond any human standard of morality. Does that standard come from society? or is it somehow written in our hearts? I think the latter. So justification is tied to morality, and starts internally - not externally and legalistically. We can justify many unjust practices according to our moral code or law, but this only demonstrates that our moral code or law that is in our civil laws is imperfect. Something more than a code is required. If you look at the history of the slave trade in England, and the legislation that made it illegal, the lawmakers - such as Wilberforce and others, had to look to something outside English law. They had to appeal to the populace's sense of morality beyond what was then written in the law. It was a sense of moral outrage that led to the legislation, rather than merely a sense that it violated English law. This moral outrage was an internal "written on the heart" sort of appeal, which recognized that there was something in the English moral law that was unjust - it violated the horizontal relationship necessary for the vertical relationship with God. So it is the moral outrage that seems to make a society understand when its own moral code violates a higher sense of morality. People understood that the horizontal relationship between fellow humans was askew, and this affected their own vertical relationship with the God who watches and judges. When we eventually evolve into a society whose populace no longer appeals to a vertical relationship, where the moral standard seems to derive, then the moral outrage over injustices allowed by the current moral code, will no longer exist. As such, there will not be the self-corrective component in moral law that exists in societies today - the relationship of human beings to a law-giver. So it's not simply the moral law of God that brings about morality, but the vertical relationship that happens between God and believers, which brings about human morality. It's a part of design. It's not a vertical relationship that is exclusive to Christians - and that is why it's not an issue of salvation, but of justification. Justification comes when I can say I have God's approval for my actions - not when I can simply say I have followed the moral law that currently exists in my society. Some might say that a Jihadist can claim to have God's approval for a suicide bombing. However, Jihadist's are not appealing to God's character - because according to Islamic teaching, God is merciful. Jihadits often mention God as merciful just before sending someone out on a suicide mission - so appearently the words are said, despite the opposite deed being done. Suicide bombing would then appear to violate God's character, even from an Islamic perspective. No, a Jihadist is merely appealing to a human made moral code, which allows an attrocity. So when we begin to see the moral outrage coming from those of the Islamic faith - in recognition of the moral necessity of the horizontal relationship they must have with all human beings, thus condemning suicide bombings, we will see God's morality - a sense of justice and wrighting an unjust moral wrong - in operation.CannuckianYankee
October 9, 2009
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vjtorley also wrote in #117:
Nevertheless, it may occasionally happen that natural law theorist A believe that action X subverts an intrinsic good, while theorist B (whose list of goods is different) disagrees. How do we resolve ethical disputes between experts like A and B? Answer: through vigorous debate, in which each side has the opportunity to critique the other side’s underlying assumptions, as well as their ethical logic. Apart from the absence of experimentation, how different is this from the way scientists resolve their own scholarly disputes?
I cannot see how this argument could ever fly because we all begin with basic axioms that force us logically to arrive at totally different destinations. Let's say, for argument's sake, that God exists, and as per my previous post, that He decries homosexuality. How is argumentation, vigorous debate, or anything else you have suggested going to show clearly that God detests homosexual behavior and that it is a moral abomination? It sounds to me like you have fallen into a modernist interpretation where we believe that if we can begin with human reason alone, we can reason from here to there and answer all these questions in the process. I suggest that if there is no God, there can be no "special revelation" to provide us with a foundation for morality, thus objective moral values cannot exist, period. As for science -- sure, if the moral law was something that we could measure or weigh. But is appears not to be like that.NZer
October 9, 2009
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vjtorely wrote (#117): "The first principles of practical reason are undeduced, as I explained above. If we ask: “What kinds of actions and dispositions are right?”, the only answer that no-one could rationally quarrel with is: actions and dispositions that promote intrinsic human goods. That is our safest and surest starting point." Ok, so why don't you take, for example, homosexuality. Queers may well believe that certain behaviors that they partake in are morally ok. Christians (+ observant Jews and Muslims) on the other hand would strongly disagree, and instead assert that such behavior is morally detestable. So, given your reasoning, how do you determine which if these is right and which is wrong?NZer
October 9, 2009
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Stephen B "In other words, it might help if materialists would go back on offense and advocates of the natural moral law would go back on defense." Not at all. Although I had only gone through about half this thread when I wrote that, I just thought that it would be right to clarify how morality is embedded in reality without reference to scripture but with reference to a universe created by God.avocationist
October 9, 2009
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camanintx Thank you for your post. You ask:
If the arguments on each side are based on a person’s personal preference as to what constitutes “intrinsic goods”, how is this any different than saying that morality itself is subjective?
Intrinsic goods are not a matter of personal preference. They are simply goods that are capable of being desired by any human being, for their own sake. I don't know of anything more objective than the fact that health is a good thing. Moral philosophers may have slightly different lists of these goods, but that is because one philosopher's definition of a given good may be broader than another philosopher's, so that good A in one scheme encompasses goods B + C in another. Objective does not imply "measurable," by the way. Many perefctly real things in our world are not measurable. Finally, if your "principle of reciprocity" means the Golden Rule, then I have already shown that this Rule is a corollary of the recognition of intrinsic human goods.vjtorley
October 9, 2009
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Canuckian Yankee, Well, you are discussing salvation, which is a bit different. You seem to say that one's moral behavior is separate from grace. I don't really agree, being liberal and all that, because I think of grace as something that each person may be receptive to in greater or lesser degree, but that no one is exempt from it entirely. I surely think that grace informs one's conscience. I don't think a person follows a moral code, or is even capable of wanting to do so, apart from grace. If righteousness is imparted through faith, that indicates to me a real and organic process of soul purification. Your understanding seems legalistic to me. But perhaps we agree after all - you say moral uprightness comes from a relationship with God, which is about the same thing. So long as we understand that this relationship involves real change and growth in the person. I don't think it's true that a nonbeliever cannot be righteous, because I happen to believe that many people have a relationship to God of which they are not consciously aware. But that is a great subtlety. I am however, greatly saddened by your conclusion that emulating Jesus' behavior is beside the point or is impossible. Or that you find his statements quaint and unrealistic. I am probably not a Christian by your standards, but I take his teachings to heart. He said we would do all things he did and more! And, he said to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, despite that I think he clearly taught that the Father was greater than himself. I agree we cannot condemn ourselves for failing to live up to those highest standards - but we should keep them in sight and know that a few of us will indeed do them - as some have done.avocationist
October 9, 2009
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----avocationist: “I sincerely hope I don’t get put on moderation for this, but it seems unfair for the materialists to be subjected to intense probing (and a very valid line of inquiry it is) while not allowing discussion of the Old Testament and how it may have influenced some of the historical acts which most of the Christians here honestly admit were wrong.” Cheer up. Materialist/Darwinists come here primarily to scrutinize ID and escape scrutiny. They are seldom required to play defense. This thread shows how easily they loose their poise when asked to do so. It should happen more often. -----“Even though I’m probably the most liberal believer here and often see both sides, and even though some of the materialists honestly think they are trying, in all these four topics I have not seen one really good answer, nor do they seem to understand that their answers are incomplete.” Their answers are incomplete because their arguments are non-existent. -----“But what might help here is if the nonmaterialists could explain in a bit more detail why and how their moral standards work.” In other words, it might help if materialists would go back on offense and advocates of the natural moral law would go back on defense. -----Also, Clive says that Jesus is his standard. But Jesus taught self-sacrifice. Is it wrong if we fail to come up to that highest standard, such as laying down our lives for our friends or giving the thief our coat after he has stolen our cloak, even though we have committed no obvious act of wrong. You are confusing the minimum demands of the natural moral law with the heavy demands of Christian virtue: It is a giant leap from You should not commit murder to ---Love your enemies and bless them that persecute you---- or, from You should not commit adultery to--- Eradicate lust from the human heart.StephenB
October 9, 2009
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avocationist, Valid questions. The Old and New Testaments on morality are a bit complicated, but there is a formula, which follows from a realization that nobody can perfectly keep any moral code. This is the lesson of the Old Testament in a nutshell. If you notice from the very beginning in Genesis, there was really only one moral code - "do not eat the fruit." That code was broken. So it appears that the OT moral code is written (not necessarily comes into existence) once a moral law is broken. Thus, as time passes, and as human society develops, more and more intricate moral codes are written and dispersed. It would appear at first glance that such a code would be unfair, because how would someone know not to kill unless it was first written? Well, the problem with this assumption is that it does not take into account that right and wrong seem to be already written on the conscience. Thus, when Cain slay Abel, (the first murder), he really did know that he did wrong. As such, the consequence was just. But the Biblical standard that comes from the New Testament is more than simply following a moral code, but also involves faith. Faith is more than simply belief, but trusting that the words written are true, and acting according to conscience and the word. For the Christian then, it seems that if one believes that Jesus is whom he claimed to be (which is pretty much a prerequisite for legitimately claiming to be a Christian - according to the scriptures, at least), merely following a moral code is great, but it does not lead one into grace with God. It doesn't do so, because the moral code is not able to make a person perfect. God's moral perfection is always above a human's moral ideal. We can never attain it. So for the Christian, what is termed 'righteosness' is imparted to the believer through faith. This does not mean that there is no moral code involved. It simply means that the Christian is constantly reminded that his/her moral weakness is supplanted by Christ's moral perfection through faith, as the basis for his/her relationship with God. It is with a relationship with God where moral uprightness comes. So according to scripture, a non-believer can never attain moral uprightness, because he/she is missing the relational aspect of grace through faith. This is the scriptural view. However, from a human perspective, a non-believer is just as capable of following the moral dictates of society and conscience as is a believer. The Christian perspective though, is that justification does not come from merely following the moral dictates of society and conscience, because they are imperfect. Justification only comes throug faith. So I think the question as to whether one should do as Jesus did is rather besides the point. I personally find that quaint little statement a bit unrealistic. None of us can do what Jesus did. Should we ask the proverbial question wwjd, whenever we are faced with a moral decision? It's hard to say. I know that given any situation, I would probably not do exactly what Jesus would do. I think anyone who fails to admit this of themselves is also not thinking realistically about their own moral weaknesses. Certainly the standard is that we should do the sacrificial acts as Jesus would. We should not, however, condemn ourselves for our failure to do them - rather, we should seek grace and forgiveness. This is the Christian standard on morality - a recognition first that we are sinners, and incapable of moral perfection, and a recognition that God is morally perfect, and that only through Him can we be justified. So should we follow the moral code of the Old Testament? Well, quite fankly, I like shellfish, and I don't think I'm condemned for eating them. Much of the OT moral code was for a particular time and place, and not necessarily intended as a code for all time, all cultures and all places. There are particular codes in the OT, however, which seem to be more universal - such as the Ten Commandments - which BTW, mention acknowledging God as part of any moral code. In light of this entire thread's discussion, that seems to make sense. Without God's standard for morality, there can be no morality - only a desire within us for a particular kind of order (which is not the same as morality) - which can vary from one generation to another, and from one culture to another. From that sort of relative basis for morality, we can justify all sorts of atrocities, which most of us would now find repugnant.CannuckianYankee
October 9, 2009
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Monetary gain should be the result of good honest toil. Humans are meant to work hard for a living. 2) gambling is a tool of Satan.”
Failed attempts at wit will not suffice for a reasoned argument.
with all due respect, google "Koran" and "gambling". I didn't make these arguments up for a laugh. These are real objective truths as revealed by a prophet channelling an ultimate law-giver.
You may want to go back to the beginning and try again.
Dittosteve_h
October 9, 2009
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[There is no moral law against gambling as such, only against the behaviors and attitudes that inform it.] ----steve-h. “That’s what I thought, but after a bit of googling today I discovered that there is an absolute moral law – gambling is wrong.” I can’t wait to hear you arguments. ----“So far this law has been revealed to most followers of the Muslim faith, and not so much to Christians and atheists etc. But it is absolute and it is objective so I guess we are all stuck with it. Not only is this view endorsed by a bona-fida giver of objective law (called Allah btw), but it’s also backed up by the full force of reason:” Let us hope you can provide your reasons. ----“1) Monetary gain should be the result of good honest toil. Humans are meant to work hard for a living. 2) gambling is a tool of Satan.” Failed attempts at wit will not suffice for a reasoned argument. ----“(Those are the offical ones. I would also add that Russian Roulette is a form of Gambling that frequently kills people. Also, investing in stock and shares etc. is a form of Gambling and without that Capitalists societies would be in a bit of a pickle. ok scratch that last one.” You may want to go back to the beginning and try again.StephenB
October 9, 2009
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Even though I'm probably the most liberal believer here and often see both sides, and even though some of the materialists honestly think they are trying, in all these four topics I have not seen one really good answer, nor do they seem to understand that their answers are incomplete. But what might help here is if the nonmaterialists could explain in a bit more detail why and how their moral standards work. Also, Clive says that Jesus is his standard. But Jesus taught self-sacrifice. Is it wrong if we fail to come up to that highest standard, such as laying down our lives for our friends or giving the thief our coat after he has stolen our cloak, even though we have committed no obvious act of wrong?avocationist
October 9, 2009
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I sincerely hope I don't get put on moderation for this, but it seems unfair for the materialists to be subjected to intense probing (and a very valid line of inquiry it is) while not allowing discussion of the Old Testament and how it may have influenced some of the historical acts which most of the Christians here honestly admit were wrong.avocationist
October 9, 2009
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stephenb@~120
There is no moral law concerning gambling or most other activities that might fall under the category of “games.” .In itself, it is neither a moral nor an immoral act.
That's what I thought, but after a bit of googling today I discovered that there is an absolute moral law - gambling is wrong. So far this law has been revealed to most followers of the Muslim faith, and not so much to Christians and atheists etc. But it is absolute and it is objective so I guess we are all stuck with it. Not only is this view endorsed by a bona-fida giver of objective law (called Allah btw), but it's also backed up by the full force of reason: 1) Monetary gain should be the result of good honest toil. Humans are meant to work hard for a living. 2) gambling is a tool of Satan. (Those are the offical ones. I would also add that Russian Roulette is a form of Gambling that frequently kills people. Also, investing in stock and shares etc. is a form of Gambling and without that Capitalists societies would be in a bit of a pickle. ok scratch that last one)steve_h
October 9, 2009
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camanitx — people can have differing opinions of what is right or wrong. The question then becomes how we determine whose personal opinion matches the objective moral truth, . . .Bingo. And if you should guess wrong/choose unwisely? . . .Do you really want to bring Pascal’s wager into this discussion? Don't answer a question with a question. And don't assume I was even considering Pascal's wager since I wasn't. Pascal's wager involves playin it safe, not seeking truth.tribune7
October 9, 2009
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"a materialist who is also a Darwinist can not provide an explanation for their own rationality."
DonaldM, lets pretend you are correct. So now tell me, how can you provide an explanation for your rationality? As for morals, as I mentioned before, it has been observed that other primates have a code of ethics they apply. Also, In present and past history we have seen many different people and cultures operate by very different sets of morals than we do today. Though it appears that they have changed over time, there are particular groups who promote standards with the same confidence and veracity as some on this blog, that most of us would disagree with. Though I believe there is no definitive answer concerning where the standards most people operate by today originated, in my opinion the evidence does suggest we have a core set that is hard wired in our brains. Since all situations do not easily fall into the basic set evolved over time, history clearly shows that we have expanded upon them through reasoning and influences of the popular culture of that a particular time. Though I believe we never will never all agree on certain moral questions, I feel it important to keep a dialog open, ad continue to refine our conclusions. Those here who have claimed that people in the past did not believed things like slavery were morally correct, I must disagree with you. I cannot speak for those people, but can for myself. Though in the most extreme situations we might agree on many things, I am sure we would strongly disagree on others you might consider morals wrong. For you to claim that you know I am lying to you or myself about these matters and to assert that you know your standards are the correct ones, is dishonest and rude. ~GIMIGIMI
October 9, 2009
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---riddick: "The problem in using slavery in this discussion is that the word is used to signify a great variety of situations. It’s easy to oversimplify and think that all slaves were treated as poorly as Africans were by the British and the colonists. As we all know (I hope), such was not the case." A very good point and also very true.StephenB
October 9, 2009
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# 137 should read "ideological" not [idea(o)listic.StephenB
October 9, 2009
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The problem in using slavery in this discussion is that the word is used to signify a great variety of situations. It's easy to oversimplify and think that all slaves were treated as poorly as Africans were by the British and the colonists. As we all know (I hope), such was not the case. Indeed, Paul pleads with Philemon to take back Onesimus. I can't imagine Paul would have done this had Phiemon had a history of treating Onesimus badly.riddick
October 9, 2009
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----Scott Andrews: "I agree 100% that there is an objective moral standard, but an individual’s knowledge may not encompass every aspect of it. People don’t always know right from wrong." A conscience is a faculty that can be sensitized or deadened depending on its environment. As they use to say about minds, a conscience is a terrible thing to waste. Anyone who is rational, knows the basic moral law, but rationality can be compromised in a number of ways. Imagine some child who has been raised by an psychotic Islamic terrorist, or a neurotic radical atheist, an unsparingly rigid Christian, or, for that matter, an unreasonably lenient Christian. That child's rationality has been compromised from living in an unnaturally ideolistic environment. We know this by virtue of the deprogramming that sometimes occurs after the fact. Or, imagine someone who is addicted to drugs, alchohol, or pornography---or anything. That person's intellect and conscience has been adversely affected in a serious way, but not necessarily to the point of no return. Many of those who publically defend pornograpy, for example, are already addicted to it. That includes executives, judges, and legislators. Misery loves company. The bottom line is this: Good habits quicken the conscience; bad habits can kill it. On the other hand, any normal person, whose conscience has not been deadened by bad behavior, or whose intellect has not been warped via materialistic brainwashing, gets it. To be sure, they don't get it all, that is why the consience is supposted to be informed by the natural moral law, which is already written there in some form and which needs to be further developed through moral training.StephenB
October 9, 2009
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Of course. Everyone knows that slavery is wrong I'm going to differ, to a degree. The word "conscience" literally means "with knowledge." Our conscience, the voice of right and wrong within us, is informed by knowledge. Teach a person from childhood that slavery is normal, and his conscience responds accordingly, trained by that knowledge. But there's more to it than learned knowledge. One man might beat his slaves, while another is repulsed by such cruel behavior. Did the former know it was wrong? I imagine so, but maybe he was just heartless and never thought about the suffering he caused. I agree 100% that there is an objective moral standard, but an individual's knowledge may not encompass every aspect of it. People don't always know right from wrong.ScottAndrews
October 9, 2009
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Excellent post, Barry. Francis Schaeffer pretty much predicted what you are also predicting, some 30 or more years ago in 1) Back To Freedom And Dignity, and 2) Whatever Happened To The Human Race?CannuckianYankee
October 9, 2009
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----camanintx? "Are you seriously suggesting that slave owners knew that slavery was wrong but engaged in it anyway?" Of course. Everyone knows that slavery is wrong, and those who once tried to justify it also knew it wrong, just as all rational people today who are familiar with the savage nature of abortion know that it, too, is wrong. In the case of the old South, slave owners, those who were rational, knew that slavery was evil, but some may have felt that it was a lesser of two evils. Still, they knew that slavery was wrong. The human capacity for finding phony excuses for immoral behavior is almost unlimited. The same people who fume at the old south for putting up phony pretexts for defending slavery put up those same phony pretexts for defending abortion.StephenB
October 9, 2009
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caminintx
Your argument only makes sense if you believe that people’s knowledge of right and wrong is fixed and unchanging. All one has to do is look at issues such as interracial marriage and abortion to see that this is not the case.
The issue of interracial marriage and that of abortion are not in the same moral category. I'm not even sure the issue of interracial really is a moral question at all. But abortion certainly is because it involves the termination of life. Your example doesn't fit Clive's point at all. It seems to me that the question of the origins of human morality is in roughly the same category as the origins of human rationality. First and foremost that which we call morals must also be rational and any argument we make to defend a moral position or moral choice will itself need to be rational. But that presents a real problem for the materialist (or philosophical naturalist -- for purposes here, they are the same). As Dr. Alvin Plantinga has pointed out in his evolutionary argument against naturalism (or materialism if you prefer), a materialist who is also a Darwinist can not provide an explanation for their own rationality. The best course of action for the materialist is to be either agnostic toward the question (we just don't know - its inscrutable) or reject it (the notion that materialistic evolution produced our rationaity) outright. I think the morals question is in the same epistemic boat here. If Plantinga is right (and I know of no one who has successfully refuted his argument), then materialism coupled with Darwinian evolution gives no basis for having confidence in our rationality. Why then ought we think it would give us a basis for confidence in our moral sense? I can't see how one is really all that different from the other.DonaldM
October 9, 2009
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