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Child Rape in a Materialist World

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Here are the facts concerning the Roman Polanski case:  Polanski gave a Quaalude to a 13 year-old child; instructed her to get naked and enter a Jacuzzi; refused to take her home when she asked; performed oral sex on her as she asked him to stop; raped her (no, not the “statutory” kind, the “forcible” kind); and sodomized her.  In a plea bargain Polanski pled to unlawful sex with a minor.

As is common knowledge, Polanski has his defenders because he has made some terrific movies.  For example, critic Tom Shales says:  “There is, apparently, more to this crime than it would seem, and it may sound like a hollow defense, but in Hollywood I am not sure a 13-year-old is really a 13-year-old.”

Here’s today’s question:  “Is it wrong in all times and at all places (even Hollywood) for a 44 year-old man to drug, rape and sodomize a 13 year-old girl?”

For our materialist friends who answer “yes” to the question (as I hope you will), I have a follow-up question:  “How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 UPDATE:

At first the materialists dodged my second (and much more important) question.  But then a brave soul who calls himself “camanintx” took up for the materialists the gauntlet I had thrown down, and we had the following exchange:

 

Barry:  How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 

camanintx:  Because the society in which I and Polanski (at the time) live in define it as such. Had Polanski lived in 6th century Arabia, he probably would have been treated differently, no?

 

Barry:   Let’s assume for the sake of argument that drugging, raping and sodomizing a young girl was considered moral behavior in Arabia between the years 501 and 600 AD [I by no means concede that, but will accept it arguendo].  On the basis of your response, camanintx, I assume you would say that the fact that it was considered moral behavior in the society in which it occurred, is in fact determinative of the morality of the behavior, and therefore if Polanski had done what he did in that place and time it would have been moral. Is that what you are saying?

 camanintx:  Since morality is a subjective term, yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 Thank you, camanintx, for that enlightening exchange.  Nietzsche would have been very proud of you for not flinching away from the nihilistic conclusions compelled by your premises.  You have truly gone “beyond good and evil.”  Roman Polanski was not immoral, must unlucky.  Cruel fate dictated that by the merest whim of fickle chance he happened to live in a society that, for whatever reason, condemns drugging, raping and sodomizing young girls.  If he had lived in a different society, what he did would not have been wrong.  Fortunately for the rest of us, your views remain in the minority (at least for now), and for that reason moral progress remains possible. 

 I invite our readers to evaluate camanintx’s views in light of our own very recent history in this country.  I grew up in the 1960’s in a state of the old Confederacy, and as I was growing up I heard about the condition of black people in earlier times.  Even as late as 1955, it was taken for granted in the southern United States that black people are inferior to white people and therefore have no claim to equal rights under the law.  They were turned away from the polls, made to sit in the back of public busses, and segregated into inferior schools, among a host of other indignities too numerous to catalogue here.  Now, the majority of the people in the South at the time considered this state of affairs to be altogether moral. 

 Think about that.  Under camanintx’s view the “is” of a society defines the “ought” of that society.  I assume camanintx is not a racist and that he personally believes that the conditions under which black people were forced to live in say, 1955 Alabama, were intolerable.  But if he had lived in Alabama in 1955 on what grounds could he have pressed for a change to the status quo?  He would have been in a quandary, because his premises compel him to affirm – as he did in response to my query – that the present state of affairs for a society DEFINES morality in that society. 

 Therefore, according to camanintx, if he had lived in Alabama in 1955, his logic would have compelled him to affirm that racial hatred and intolerance is fine and dandy, morally speaking.  The only thing he could have said is, “While I cannot say racial hatred and intolerance is in any sense “immoral,” I personally do not prefer it, and therefore we should change our laws and behavior to eliminate those blights on our land.”  To which, the all-too-easy response from a southern racist would have been:  “I prefer the status quo, and who is to say that your personal preference is better than mine.”  At this point camanintx would have been struck silent, because there is no answer to the southern racist’s rejoinder. 

 Which brings us back full circle to Roman Polanski.  Has anyone considered the irony of the materialists’ defense of Polanski’s actions?  Both of Polanski’s parents were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps.  His mother died at Auschwitz.  Never let us forget that the Nazis came to power in a fair election, and the people of Germany never revolted against their polices.  The “final solution” was perfectly lawful in the sense that it did not violate the internal laws of the nation in which it occurred.  Therefore, camanintx’s logic compels the conclusion that the “is” of the final solution defined the “ought” of the matter, and Polanski’s mother’s death at the hands of the Nazis was in no sense “immoral.”  The irony is that Polanski’s defenders are bringing to bear the same moral relativism that led to the death of Polanski’s mother.

 Sadly, I believe we are losing this battle.  Views like camanintx’s would have been almost literally unthinkable 30 or even 20 years ago.  Now they are commonplace.  How long before they are the majority?  The other day I saw a bumper sticker:  “So many Christians, so few lions.”  I am afraid; for myself, yes, but even more so for my children and grandchildren, whom, I fear, will grow up in a society where every last vestige of the Judeo-Christian ethic will have been jettisoned from our institutions.  That bumper sticker was unthinkable 30 years ago.  What will be “thinkable” 30 years hence that is unthinkable now?  We are going to find out, aren’t we?

Comments
Mark Frank,
Easily. Van Gogh was a better painter than I am. But I have no ideal of best painter.
This, of course, is not true. And secondly, are you saying that your preference in painting is also a preference in morality?Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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#21 How can you call something “better” unless you have a fixed ideal of what is “best”? Easily. Van Gogh was a better painter than I am. But I have no ideal of best painter. EDITOR: But you have an idea of the "good." Otherwise, your statement would be meaningless. Mark Frank
October 8, 2009
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At 34 Nakashima writes: My answers are “yes”,and axioms such as the Golden Rule and Todd’s “I own myself.” The Golden Rule says "You should treat others the way you want to be treated." Another way of saying "I own myself" is "I have a right not to be violated in my person and you should respect that right." Now let us bring it back to the original question. You say that Polanski violated the following moral principles: 1. Polanski would not want to be drugged and raped. Therefore, he should not drug and rape others. 2. Polanski failed to respect the girl's right not to be violated in her person. But Mr. Shales believes that Polanski did nothing wrong. Either your are right or he is right. You cannot both be right. Now it seems to me that you cannot appeal to your personal preferences to establish that you are right and that Shales is wrong for the simple reason that your personal preferences are entitled to no more deference that his. Do you say that you right and Shales is wrong? If so, do you contend that the two moral axioms to which you appeal transcend your personal preferences and are biinding in all times and places? If not, then on what basis do you say that you are right and Shales is wrong?Barry Arrington
October 8, 2009
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I have a daughter, and plenty of instincts to protect her, I also like living in communities where I feel that I and my family are safe (it would be a bad survival tactic to do otherwise). I wouldn’t want someone to force themselves on my daughter, and thanks to an ability to feel empathy I don’t want to see that happen to anyone else. The result is a belief that it is wrong for people to force sexual acts on unwilling participants. EDITOR: Yes, we understand that you believe Polanski was wrong. That is not the important question. You say Polanski was wrong. Shales says he was not wrong. You dodged the important question -- the all powerful "sez who" question. Who are you to say that your position is right and Shales is wrong? Do you have an answer to that question?BillB
October 8, 2009
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I fully support the administrators and moderators for keeping this thread on track and sending to the showers all those who refuse to confront the issue. Sooner or later, deniers and equivocators must be brought face to face with their inability to debate the issue on its merits. BarryA's question persists: “How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”StephenB
October 8, 2009
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4 Fross @ 4 wrote:
Here is a list of things that my brain runs through which leads me to say “whoa, the dude was way wrong” 1. US laws are very clear on this. He broke laws. I think it’s sick how people are defending him and wanting to let him off the hook.
Would it still be wrong if there were no laws against it or if there were laws explicitly for it? What if there were scientific bases for rape and pedophilia?
2. Empathy. I have a daughter, a mother, a wife and a sister, etc. Something like this would have ruined their lives, so it’s easy to assume this made the 13 year old’s life very hard. (not to mention how her parents must have felt)
Others have empathy for Polanski and his years of exile from the U.S. Why are they wrong?
3. Logic. His actions had negative consequences toward himself and a non-developed human. (a child)
Not according to the victim. Besides the Rind, Tromovich, & Bauserman meta-analysis (in additon to other work) shows that your view is the non-scientific one. Why do you persist in unscientific beliefs derived ultimately from superstitious mumbo-jumbo?angryoldfatman
October 8, 2009
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SNIP, DNA_Jock is no longer with us.DNA_Jock
October 8, 2009
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This is the basic incoherency of materialism; in so many areas, they take what theists or idealists have created, assume the benefits thereof (such as modern science, such as a common morality and ethic), and then dismiss with prejuduce the foundation upon which they stand, denying such a foundation is even required and arguing that "as long as it works" no such basis is necessary.William J. Murray
October 8, 2009
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Mr Arrington, My answers are "yes",and axioms such as the Golden Rule and Todd's "I own myself." Thank you for asking.Nakashima
October 8, 2009
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God's Ipod said: "It’s not a “nice try” it’s a correct understanding of the most basic of rights, something you clearly fail to grasp." What you are doing here is hiding the problem. If your answer to "what is your moral basis" is "it is a violation of a basic right", then you've simply transferred the question to "what is your basis for stating what basic rights are?" You and others are not supplying the foundation from which one can make (or attempt to make) truthful statements about what is moral or, after you transfer the problem to that of having a right violated, what establishes a "right"? Where does the right to not having your personal property violated come from? Where does the right to liberty come from? If immoral behavior is defined as violations of basic rights, what gives us these basic rights? You think you're answering the question, but you're just saying "it's immoral" using different terms, and not answering the question.William J. Murray
October 8, 2009
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----Quaggy: “I already answered that question. I oppose it on the grounds that it is a clear violation of the girl’s liberty, exacerbated by the fact that she was of an age where she was incapable of making rational decisions regarding liberty.” You are begging the question. Why does the girl deserve to be free? [Or do you appeal to a moral order outside yourself? If the latter, what is the basis of that moral order? This last question is the real issue]. ---- Well, I answered that also, although I was way too parsimonious in my answer. As a deist, I tend to follow the example of the great deist, Enlightenment thinkers that preceded me. So long as an individual or group of individuals act in accord to their conscience and don’t impede the liberty of any other individual or group of individuals (call it a tacitly cooperative), civil society works.” You are begging the question again. How do you know whether the conscience in question is a well-formed conscience that can be trusted? Is there such a thing as a malformed conscience? According to what standard should it be formed? Does habitually bad behavior compromise its capacity to provide moral instruction? What kind of liberty are you talking about, moral liberty or license? Does the act of abortion compromise someone’s liberty? ----“I will certainly grant that organized religion has played a significant role in the inculcation of these rules of civil society (even while often erring on the side of restricting individual liberty). As a deist, I believe that they were basically derived, over history, through individual’s mostly unsuccessful (and occasionally successful) attempts to live in concert with each other. It is a strictly utlitarian view. I do not accept that these rules were handed down by any supreme being. Indeed, as hdx demonstrated in his now purged post, I do not find organized religion or its written guides in any way uniquely authoritative.” You have yet to define liberty. Is it the right to do anything you please provided you personally don’t believe you have hurt anyone? If so, then how do you know whether or not you have hurt someone? Would you not have to assume something about that person's nature to make that calculation? Or, is freedom the right to do what you ought to do? That is a different kind of liberty. Which kind are you talking about? ----"So long as an individual or group of individuals act in accord to their conscience and don’t impede the liberty of any other individual or group of individuals (call it a tacitly cooperative), civil society works." How do you know if a society is well ordered or if it is working?StephenB
October 8, 2009
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God's iPOD,
If you want to attack materialists, there’s better fodder for the fire than this example. I suggest you just delete this entire thread and pretend it never happened, it makes us look like uneducated fools.
Some Christians are uneducated, that doesn't mean that they are fools. And there is nothing wrong with challenging each other. But Barry's topic is perfectly reasonable, if you don't like, don't post here. I don't want to have to moderate you, but I will. If you cannot explain how "basic rights" "should" (morally) be protected without morality, don't attack Barry for pointing that out; for it is a valid point. In the end you have to invoke morality to establish that people have rights, and that those rights shouldn't be violated, there is no way around it. If this means that you're being educated, then so be it. I wouldn't be so quick to impugn a fellow believer because they ask hard questions; that, to me, is uncharitable, and makes you look worse than Barry's response could ever do.Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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I'm done with this thread, seeing as the editors delete entirely unoffensive and relevant portions of many posts. Editors: There you have it folks. Monastyrski was unable to defend his worldview. Instead, when confronted with the poverty of his ethic, he rightly perceived that his only chance to win the argument was to change the subject of the argument to something other than the fact that his ethic rests on nothingness. When the editors refused to allow him that option, he took his ball and went home. Typical.Monastyrski
October 8, 2009
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May I remind you that Mohamed SNIP. As I indicated in my post, I know you would like to change the subject away from your own ethically impoverished wouldview, but this post is not about Muhammad. Do try to keep up Kyrilluk.Kyrilluk
October 8, 2009
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todd, "I own me" is in the indicative mood, how can that become the imperative mood to "I should have rights"? How do you get an ought from an is?Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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SNIP. Long-time poster God's iPod is no longer with us.Gods iPod
October 8, 2009
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Brent, A right to liberty is derived from the axiom "I own me" (as it applies to human interaction). What makes something an "axiom"? Your personal preference?todd
October 8, 2009
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Quaggy, Who determines the girl's liberty? Why should she have it? I don't trust my conscience, therefore I'll use my liberty to kill whom I'd like. Show I'm wrong and you're right.Brent
October 8, 2009
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SNIP. Todd, a guest on this site, attacked and insulted his host. He is no longer with us. Really people, how many of you are going to be banned before you figure out that the editors will not allow personal attacks or changing the subject of this post? Is the point that difficult to grasp?todd
October 8, 2009
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God's iPod, "Her personal right to liberty, and her personal property rights are enough." Without invoking morality, can you say that rights "shouldn't" be violated?Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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SNIP. Quaggy ignored the warning above and is no longer with us.quaggy
October 8, 2009
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Monastyrski, "According to you, this probably reflects a better understanding of the absolute objective standards, and that’s fine, but I happen to disagree." Of course it does. How can you call something "better" unless you have a fixed ideal of what is "best"?Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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Todd,
There is a difference between acknowledging absolute moral standards exist and knowing what those standards are.
But if you don't know what they are, how do you decide what's right? My answer is that most people have a natural moral compass that helps them decide, and there seems to be considerable overlap between the compasses of different people from a wide variety of cultures and backgrounds. Yet we also see historical trends, or cultural evolution, in moral standards. Mostly away from "might makes right". According to you, this probably reflects a better understanding of the absolute objective standards, and that's fine, but I happen to disagree.Monastyrski
October 8, 2009
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I am a follower of Yeshua, and a libertarian. It seems some of my fellow brothers in the faith don't seem to grasp the idea of liberty as pertaining to property rights, and you've done a good job of digging your own hole here. Her property was being violated and polluted. Her liberty was being revoked. She was being held prisoner. There is no need for morals to justify why this act against the girl is bad. Her personal right to liberty, and her personal property rights are enough. Now one could argue these rights come from God, sure, but everyone, materialist or otherwise knows that what is theirs, is theirs and others do not have a right to it. And that is enough. Morality is not necessary in this instance for the rape of this girl to be wrong. Nice try Ipod, but on what grounds do you contend her property rights should be respected? Is it merely your personal preference that property rights should be respected? Or do you appeal to a code [the source of the code is not material for the moment] that transcends your personal preferences that says "property rights should be respected"?Gods iPod
October 8, 2009
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quaggy, "Indeed, as hdx demonstrated in his now purged post, I do not find organized religion or its written guides in any way uniquely authoritative." Of course a Deist wouldn't, because you reject a personal God, but, for those who don't, it is obviously authoritative, even when it claims that there is such a thing as general revelation regarding morality, your conscience, and the fact that you have guilt when you violate them. To everyone else: I would really like to hear the answer to Barry's question without the sideshow "Well how do you know the Bible is right?" change of subject. Let's keep the subject on track. I will just start deleting posts that don't stay on topic. I won't edit them, I will delete them wholesale. So stay on topic please.Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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Here’s today’s question: “Is it wrong in all times and at all places (even Hollywood) for a 44 year-old man to drug, rape and sodomize a 13 year-old girl?” I struggle to think of extenuating circumstances. I guess it depends on what happens if he doesn't. Imagine a scenario if an evil tyrant will nuke New York if doesn't. “How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?” At the risk of following BGOG, this is essentially the same question you have asked many times before. I am very surprised at William Dembski's comment #5. He must be aware that there is a strong and respectable philosophical tradition which justifies ethics on purely materialist principles - Hume is probably the most famous exponent. All sides in this debate (the fundamental grounds for morality) find it very difficult to articulate their positions - even professional philosophers. It has been the subject of thousands of learned papers and hundreds of learned books and still there is no agreement. In practice we cope by appealing to common grounds such as fairness and compassion. If we tried to solve ethical problems by agreeing the fundamentals of morality then no ethical disputes would ever get settled. To expect scientists such as Dawkins to give philosophical underpinnings for their statements about right and wrong is unreasonable. I accept that Polanksi did wrong. It is interesting to ask what is mean't by this and what further justification might be required. But that is an academic debate.Mark Frank
October 8, 2009
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BarryA:
The issue is NOT whether materialist defend the rape of 13 year-old girls. As I have shown, some of them do and some of them do not.
I assume that you are referring to the quote by Tom Shales personal attack on editors deleted. One more quaggy, and you will be outa here.
For the materialist that does not defend the rape of 13 year old girls, on what GROUNDS do you oppose it?
I already answered that question. I oppose it on the grounds that it is a clear violation of the girl's liberty, exacerbated by the fact that she was of an age where she was incapable of making rational decisions regarding liberty.
Or do you appeal to a moral order outside yourself? If the latter, what is the basis of that moral order? This last question is the real issue.
Well, I answered that also, although I was way too parsimonious in my answer. As a deist, I tend to follow the example of the great deist, Enlightenment thinkers that preceded me. So long as an individual or group of individuals act in accord to their conscience and don't impede the liberty of any other individual or group of individuals (call it a tacitly cooperative), civil society works. I will certainly grant that organized religion has played a significant role in the inculcation of these rules of civil society (even while often erring on the side of restricting individual liberty). As a deist, I believe that they were basically derived, over history, through individual's mostly unsuccessful (and occasionally successful) attempts to live in concert with each other. It is a strictly utlitarian view. I do not accept that these rules were handed down by any supreme being. Indeed, SNIP, I do not find organized religion or its written guides in any way uniquely authoritative.quaggy
October 8, 2009
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Monastyrski, The standards don't evolve. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/lewis/abolition2.htm Indeed, if they did, you couldn't say that anything done in the past can be judged unless you use the same standard. How can you overtake Jones if you're walking in the opposite direction? If there is not at the core an unchanging morality then there can be no progress, only change, for progress has to have an unchanging element, otherwise there can be no progression, only change. If an acorn turns into an oak that is progress, if it turns into a beech that is mere change. If your standards do not stay static, you cannot judge anything that used a different standard.Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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Monastyrski, There is a difference between acknowledging absolute moral standards exist and knowing what those standards are.todd
October 8, 2009
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I think atheists and theists are pretty much in the same boat here. SNIP. "I know you are but what am I" arguments are not germane. If you have any response to the actual question posed by the post, please submit it.Monastyrski
October 8, 2009
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