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Child Rape in a Materialist World

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Here are the facts concerning the Roman Polanski case:  Polanski gave a Quaalude to a 13 year-old child; instructed her to get naked and enter a Jacuzzi; refused to take her home when she asked; performed oral sex on her as she asked him to stop; raped her (no, not the “statutory” kind, the “forcible” kind); and sodomized her.  In a plea bargain Polanski pled to unlawful sex with a minor.

As is common knowledge, Polanski has his defenders because he has made some terrific movies.  For example, critic Tom Shales says:  “There is, apparently, more to this crime than it would seem, and it may sound like a hollow defense, but in Hollywood I am not sure a 13-year-old is really a 13-year-old.”

Here’s today’s question:  “Is it wrong in all times and at all places (even Hollywood) for a 44 year-old man to drug, rape and sodomize a 13 year-old girl?”

For our materialist friends who answer “yes” to the question (as I hope you will), I have a follow-up question:  “How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 UPDATE:

At first the materialists dodged my second (and much more important) question.  But then a brave soul who calls himself “camanintx” took up for the materialists the gauntlet I had thrown down, and we had the following exchange:

 

Barry:  How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 

camanintx:  Because the society in which I and Polanski (at the time) live in define it as such. Had Polanski lived in 6th century Arabia, he probably would have been treated differently, no?

 

Barry:   Let’s assume for the sake of argument that drugging, raping and sodomizing a young girl was considered moral behavior in Arabia between the years 501 and 600 AD [I by no means concede that, but will accept it arguendo].  On the basis of your response, camanintx, I assume you would say that the fact that it was considered moral behavior in the society in which it occurred, is in fact determinative of the morality of the behavior, and therefore if Polanski had done what he did in that place and time it would have been moral. Is that what you are saying?

 camanintx:  Since morality is a subjective term, yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 Thank you, camanintx, for that enlightening exchange.  Nietzsche would have been very proud of you for not flinching away from the nihilistic conclusions compelled by your premises.  You have truly gone “beyond good and evil.”  Roman Polanski was not immoral, must unlucky.  Cruel fate dictated that by the merest whim of fickle chance he happened to live in a society that, for whatever reason, condemns drugging, raping and sodomizing young girls.  If he had lived in a different society, what he did would not have been wrong.  Fortunately for the rest of us, your views remain in the minority (at least for now), and for that reason moral progress remains possible. 

 I invite our readers to evaluate camanintx’s views in light of our own very recent history in this country.  I grew up in the 1960’s in a state of the old Confederacy, and as I was growing up I heard about the condition of black people in earlier times.  Even as late as 1955, it was taken for granted in the southern United States that black people are inferior to white people and therefore have no claim to equal rights under the law.  They were turned away from the polls, made to sit in the back of public busses, and segregated into inferior schools, among a host of other indignities too numerous to catalogue here.  Now, the majority of the people in the South at the time considered this state of affairs to be altogether moral. 

 Think about that.  Under camanintx’s view the “is” of a society defines the “ought” of that society.  I assume camanintx is not a racist and that he personally believes that the conditions under which black people were forced to live in say, 1955 Alabama, were intolerable.  But if he had lived in Alabama in 1955 on what grounds could he have pressed for a change to the status quo?  He would have been in a quandary, because his premises compel him to affirm – as he did in response to my query – that the present state of affairs for a society DEFINES morality in that society. 

 Therefore, according to camanintx, if he had lived in Alabama in 1955, his logic would have compelled him to affirm that racial hatred and intolerance is fine and dandy, morally speaking.  The only thing he could have said is, “While I cannot say racial hatred and intolerance is in any sense “immoral,” I personally do not prefer it, and therefore we should change our laws and behavior to eliminate those blights on our land.”  To which, the all-too-easy response from a southern racist would have been:  “I prefer the status quo, and who is to say that your personal preference is better than mine.”  At this point camanintx would have been struck silent, because there is no answer to the southern racist’s rejoinder. 

 Which brings us back full circle to Roman Polanski.  Has anyone considered the irony of the materialists’ defense of Polanski’s actions?  Both of Polanski’s parents were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps.  His mother died at Auschwitz.  Never let us forget that the Nazis came to power in a fair election, and the people of Germany never revolted against their polices.  The “final solution” was perfectly lawful in the sense that it did not violate the internal laws of the nation in which it occurred.  Therefore, camanintx’s logic compels the conclusion that the “is” of the final solution defined the “ought” of the matter, and Polanski’s mother’s death at the hands of the Nazis was in no sense “immoral.”  The irony is that Polanski’s defenders are bringing to bear the same moral relativism that led to the death of Polanski’s mother.

 Sadly, I believe we are losing this battle.  Views like camanintx’s would have been almost literally unthinkable 30 or even 20 years ago.  Now they are commonplace.  How long before they are the majority?  The other day I saw a bumper sticker:  “So many Christians, so few lions.”  I am afraid; for myself, yes, but even more so for my children and grandchildren, whom, I fear, will grow up in a society where every last vestige of the Judeo-Christian ethic will have been jettisoned from our institutions.  That bumper sticker was unthinkable 30 years ago.  What will be “thinkable” 30 years hence that is unthinkable now?  We are going to find out, aren’t we?

Comments
SNIP. Please stay on topic.suckerspawn
October 8, 2009
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Clive Hayden, #68
C. S. Lewis, Appendix to The Abolition of Man.
Other than showing that many people share some of the same philosophies, how does this list prove an objective standard?camanintx
October 8, 2009
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Mr Arrington, Yes, I do beleive something close to this set of axioms is universally good for all humanity at all times. Tom Shales is wrong. Thank you for letting me say that. Then you agree that there is a moral code that transcends personal preferences or opinions. Good for you.Nakashima
October 8, 2009
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SNIP. Riddick, both sides must stay on topic.riddick
October 8, 2009
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camanintx,
Since history is replete with examples of people who held different moral standards, I would think that was obvious.
Okay, I see. I didn't want to just assume that you held the position that morality and immorality is only a matter personal preference. So thanks for clarifying. I don't agree, of course, that morality and immorality are personal preferences, and you don't have history on your side either:
The following illustrations of the Natural Law are collected from such sources as come readily to the hand of one who is not a professional historian. The list makes no pretence of completeness. It will be noticed that writers such as Locke and Hooker, who wrote within the Christian tradition, are quoted side by side with the New Testament. This would, of course, be absurd if I were trying to collect independent testimonies to the Tao. But (1) I am not trying to prove its validity by the argument from common consent. Its validity cannot be deduced. For those who do not perceive its rationality, even universal consent could not prove it. (2) The idea of collecting independent testimonies presupposes that 'civilizations' have arisen in the world independently of one another; or even that humanity has had several independent emergences on this planet. The biology and anthropology involved in such an assumption are extremely doubtful. It is by no means certain that there has ever (in the sense required) been more than one civilization in all history. It is at least arguable that every civilization we find has been derived from another civilization and, in the last resort, from a single centre—'carried' like an infectious disease or like the Apostolical succession. I. The Law of General Beneficence (a) NEGATIVE 'I have not slain men.' (Ancient Egyptian. From the Confession of the Righteous Soul, 'Book of the Dead', v. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics [= ERE], vol. v, p. 478) 'Do not murder.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:13) 'Terrify not men or God will terrify thee.' (Ancient Egyptian. Precepts of Ptahhetep. H. R. Hall, Ancient History of the Near East, p. i3}n) 'In Nastrond (= Hell) I saw... murderers.' (Old Norse. Volospá 38, 39) 'I have not brought misery upon my fellows. I have not made the beginning of every day laborious in the sight of him who worked for me.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478) 'I have not been grasping.' (Ancient Egyptian. Ibid.) 'Who meditates oppression, his dwelling is overturned.' (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445) 'He who is cruel and calumnious has the character of a cat.' (Hindu. Laws of Manu. Janet, Histoire de la Science Politique, vol. i, p. 6) 'Slander not.' (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445) 'Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:16) 'Utter not a word by which anyone could be wounded.' (Hindu. Janet, p. 7) 'Has he ... driven an honest man from his family? broken up a well cemented clan?' (Babylonian. List of Sins from incantation tablets. ERE v. 446) 'I have not caused hunger. I have not caused weeping.' (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 478) 'Never do to others what you would not like them to do to you.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects of Confucius, trans. A. Waley, xv. 23; cf. xii. 2) 'Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart.' (Ancient Jewish. Leviticus 19:17) 'He whose heart is in the smallest degree set upon goodness will dislike no one.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, iv. 4) (b) POSITIVE 'Nature urges that a man should wish human society to exist and should wish to enter it.' (Roman. Cicero, De Officiis, i. iv) 'By the fundamental Law of Nature Man [is] to be preserved as much as possible.' (Locke, Treatises of Civil Govt. ii. 3) 'When the people have multiplied, what next should be done for them? The Master said, Enrich them. Jan Ch'iu said, When one has enriched them, what next should be done for them? The Master said, Instruct them.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, xiii. 9) 'Speak kindness ... show good will.' (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445) 'Men were brought into existence for the sake of men that they might do one another good.' (Roman. Cicero. De Off. i. vii) 'Man is man's delight.' (Old Norse. Hávamál 47) 'He who is asked for alms should always give.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 7) 'What good man regards any misfortune as no concern of his?' (Roman. Juvenal xv. 140) 'I am a man: nothing human is alien to me.' (Roman. Terence, Heaut. Tim.) 'Love thy neighbour as thyself.' (Ancient Jewish. Leviticus 19:18) 'Love the stranger as thyself.' (Ancient Jewish. Ibid. 33, 34) 'Do to men what you wish men to do to you.' (Christian. Matthew 7:12) 2. The Law of Special Beneficence 'It is upon the trunk that a gentleman works. When that is firmly set up, the Way grows. And surely proper behaviour to parents and elder brothers is the trunk of goodness.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, i. 2) 'Brothers shall fight and be each others' bane.' (Old Norse. Account of the Evil Age before the World's end, Volospá 45) 'Has he insulted his elder sister?' (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446) 'You will see them take care of their kindred [and] the children of their friends ... never reproaching them in the least.' (Redskin. Le Jeune, quoted ERE v. 437) 'Love thy wife studiously. Gladden her heart all thy life long.' (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 481) 'Nothing can ever change the claims of kinship for a right thinking man.' (Anglo-Saxon. Beowulf, 2600) 'Did not Socrates love his own children, though he did so as a free man and as one not forgetting that the gods have the first claim on our friendship?' (Greek, Epictetus, iii. 24) 'Natural affection is a thing right and according to Nature.' (Greek. Ibid. i. xi) 'I ought not to be unfeeling like a statue but should fulfil both my natural and artificial relations, as a worshipper, a son, a brother, a father, and a citizen.' (Greek. Ibid. 111. ii) 'This first I rede thee: be blameless to thy kindred. Take no vengeance even though they do thee wrong.' (Old Norse. Sigdrifumál, 22) 'Is it only the sons of Atreus who love their wives? For every good man, who is right-minded, loves and cherishes his own.' (Greek. Homer, Iliad, ix. 340) 'The union and fellowship of men will be best preserved if each receives from us the more kindness in proportion as he is more closely connected with us.' (Roman. Cicero. De Off. i. xvi) 'Part of us is claimed by our country, part by our parents, part by our friends.' (Roman. Ibid. i. vii) 'If a ruler ... compassed the salvation of the whole state, surely you would call him Good? The Master said, It would no longer be a matter of "Good". He would without doubt be a Divine Sage.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, vi. 28) 'Has it escaped you that, in the eyes of gods and good men, your native land deserves from you more honour, worship, and reverence than your mother and father and all your ancestors? That you should give a softer answer to its anger than to a father's anger? That if you cannot persuade it to alter its mind you must obey it in all quietness, whether it binds you or beats you or sends you to a war where you may get wounds or death?' (Greek. Plato, Crito, 51, a, b) 'If any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith.' (Christian. I Timothy 5:8) 'Put them in mind to obey magistrates.'... 'I exhort that prayers be made for kings and all that are in authority.' (Christian. Titus 3:1 and I Timothy 2:1, 2) 3. Duties to Parents, Elders, Ancestors 'Your father is an image of the Lord of Creation, your mother an image of the Earth. For him who fails to honour them, every work of piety is in vain. This is the first duty.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 9) 'Has he despised Father and Mother?' (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446) 'I was a staff by my Father's side ... I went in and out at his command.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 481) 'Honour thy Father and thy Mother.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:12) 'To care for parents.' (Greek. List of duties in Epictetus, in. vii) 'Children, old men, the poor, and the sick, should be considered as the lords of the atmosphere.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 8) 'Rise up before the hoary head and honour the old man.' (Ancient Jewish. Leviticus 19:32) 'I tended the old man, I gave him my staff.' (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 481) 'You will see them take care ... of old men.' (Redskin. Le Jeune, quoted ERE v. 437) 'I have not taken away the oblations of the blessed dead.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478) 'When proper respect towards the dead is shown at the end and continued after they are far away, the moral force (tê) of a people has reached its highest point.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, i. 9) 4. Duties to Children and Posterity 'Children, the old, the poor, etc. should be considered as lords of the atmosphere.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 8) 'To marry and to beget children.' (Greek. List of duties. Epictetus, in. vii) 'Can you conceive an Epicurean commonwealth? . . . What will happen? Whence is the population to be kept up? Who will educate them? Who will be Director of Adolescents? Who will be Director of Physical Training? What will be taught?' (Greek. Ibid.) 'Nature produces a special love of offspring' and 'To live according to Nature is the supreme good.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i. iv, and De Legibus, i. xxi) 'The second of these achievements is no less glorious than the first; for while the first did good on one occasion, the second will continue to benefit the state for ever.' (Roman. Cicero. De Off. i. xxii) 'Great reverence is owed to a child.' (Roman. Juvenal, xiv. 47) 'The Master said, Respect the young.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, ix. 22) 'The killing of the women and more especially of the young boys and girls who are to go to make up the future strength of the people, is the saddest part... and we feel it very sorely.' (Redskin. Account of the Battle of Wounded Knee. ERE v. 432) 5. The Law of Justice (a) SEXUAL JUSTICE 'Has he approached his neighbour's wife?' (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446) 'Thou shalt not commit adultery.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:14) 'I saw in Nastrond (= Hell)... beguilers of others' wives.' (Old Norse. Volospá 38, 39) (b) HONESTY 'Has he drawn false boundaries?' (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446) 'To wrong, to rob, to cause to be robbed.' (Babylonian. Ibid.) 'I have not stolen.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478) 'Thou shalt not steal.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:15) 'Choose loss rather than shameful gains.' (Greek. Chilon Fr. 10. Diels) 'Justice is the settled and permanent intention of rendering to each man his rights.' (Roman. Justinian, Institutions, I. i) 'If the native made a "find" of any kind (e.g., a honey tree) and marked it, it was thereafter safe for him, as far as his own tribesmen were concerned, no matter how long he left it.' (Australian Aborigines. ERE v. 441) 'The first point of justice is that none should do any mischief to another unless he has first been attacked by the other's wrongdoing. The second is that a man should treat common property as common property, and private property as his own. There is no such thing as private property by nature, but things have become private either through prior occupation (as when men of old came into empty territory) or by conquest, or law, or agreement, or stipulation, or casting lots.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. I. vii) (c) JUSTICE IN COURT, &C. 'Whoso takes no bribe ... well pleasing is this to Samas.' (Babylonian. ERE v. 445) 'I have not traduced the slave to him who is set over him.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478) 'Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.' (Ancient Jewish. Exodus 20:16) 'Regard him whom thou knowest like him whom thou knowest not.' (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 482) 'Do no unrighteousness in judgement. You must not consider the fact that one party is poor nor the fact that the other is a great man.' (Ancient Jewish. Leviticus 19:15) 6. The Law of Good Faith and Veracity 'A sacrifice is obliterated by a lie and the merit of alms by an act of fraud.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 6) 'Whose mouth, full of lying, avails not before thee: thou burnest their utterance.' (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE v. 445) 'With his mouth was he full of Yea, in his heart full of Nay? (Babylonian. ERE v. 446) 'I have not spoken falsehood.' (Ancient Egyptian. Confession of the Righteous Soul. ERE v. 478) 'I sought no trickery, nor swore false oaths.' (Anglo-Saxon. Beowulf, 2738) 'The Master said, Be of unwavering good faith.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, viii. 13) 'In Nastrond (= Hell) I saw the perjurers.' (Old Norse. Volospá 39) 'Hateful to me as are the gates of Hades is that man who says one thing, and hides another in his heart.' (Greek. Homer. Iliad, ix. 312) 'The foundation of justice is good faith.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i.vii) '[The gentleman] must learn to be faithful to his superiors and to keep promises.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, i. 8) 'Anything is better than treachery.' (Old Norse. Hávamál 124) H2>7. The Law of Mercy 'The poor and the sick should be regarded as lords of the atmosphere.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 8) 'Whoso makes intercession for the weak, well pleasing is this to Samas.' (Babylonian. ERE v. 445) 'Has he failed to set a prisoner free?' (Babylonian. List of Sins. ERE v. 446) 'I have given bread to the hungry, water to the thirsty, clothes to the naked, a ferry boat to the boatless.' (Ancient Egyptian. ERE v. 446) 'One should never strike a woman; not even with a flower.' (Hindu. Janet, i. 8) 'There, Thor, you got disgrace, when you beat women.' (Old Norse. Hárbarthsljóth 38) 'In the Dalebura tribe a woman, a cripple from birth, was carried about by the tribes-people in turn until her death at the age of sixty-six.'... 'They never desert the sick.' (Australian Aborigines. ERE v. 443) 'You will see them take care of... widows, orphans, and old men, never reproaching them.' (Redskin. ERE v. 439) 'Nature confesses that she has given to the human race the tenderest hearts, by giving us the power to weep. This is the best part of us.' (Roman. Juvenal, xv. 131) 'They said that he had been the mildest and gentlest of the kings of the world.' (Anglo-Saxon. Praise of the hero in Beowulf, 3180) 'When thou cuttest down thine harvest... and hast forgot a sheaf... thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.' (Ancient Jewish. Deuteronomy 24:19) 8. The Law of Magnanimity (a) 'There are two kinds of injustice: the first is found in those who do an injury, the second in those who fail to protect another from injury when they can.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. I. vii) 'Men always knew that when force and injury was offered they might be defenders of themselves; they knew that howsoever men may seek their own commodity, yet if this were done with injury unto others it was not to be suffered, but by all men and by all good means to be withstood.' (English. Hooker, Laws of Eccl. Polity, I. ix. 4) 'To take no notice of a violent attack is to strengthen the heart of the enemy. Vigour is valiant, but cowardice is vile.' (Ancient Egyptian. The Pharaoh Senusert III, cit. H. R. Hall, Ancient History of the Near East, p. 161) 'They came to the fields of joy, the fresh turf of the Fortunate Woods and the dwellings of the Blessed . . . here was the company of those who had suffered wounds fighting for their fatherland.' (Roman. Virgil, Aeneid, vi. 638-9, 660) 'Courage has got to be harder, heart the stouter, spirit the sterner, as our strength weakens. Here lies our lord, cut to pieces, out best man in the dust. If anyone thinks of leaving this battle, he can howl forever.' (Anglo-Saxon. Maldon, 312) 'Praise and imitate that man to whom, while life is pleasing, death is not grievous.' (Stoic. Seneca, Ep. liv) 'The Master said, Love learning and if attacked be ready to die for the Good Way.' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, viii. 13) (b) 'Death is to be chosen before slavery and base deeds.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i, xxiii) 'Death is better for every man than life with shame.' (Anglo-Saxon. Beowulf, 2890) 'Nature and Reason command that nothing uncomely, nothing effeminate, nothing lascivious be done or thought.' (Roman. Cicero, De Off. i. iv) 'We must not listen to those who advise us "being men to think human thoughts, and being mortal to think mortal thoughts," but must put on immortality as much as is possible and strain every nerve to live according to that best part of us, which, being small in bulk, yet much more in its power and honour surpasses all else.' (Ancient Greek. Aristotle, Eth. Nic. 1177 B) 'The soul then ought to conduct the body, and the spirit of our minds the soul. This is therefore the first Law, whereby the highest power of the mind requireth obedience at the hands of all the rest.' (Hooker, op. cit. i. viii. 6) 'Let him not desire to die, let him not desire to live, let him wait for his time ... let him patiently bear hard words, entirely abstaining from bodily pleasures.' (Ancient Indian. Laws of Manu. ERE ii. 98) 'He who is unmoved, who has restrained his senses ... is said to be devoted. As a flame in a windless place that flickers not, so is the devoted.' (Ancient Indian. Bhagavad gita. ERE ii 90) (c) 'Is not the love of Wisdom a practice of death?' (Ancient Greek. Plato, Phadeo, 81 A) 'I know that I hung on the gallows for nine nights, wounded with the spear as a sacrifice to Odin, myself offered to Myself.' (Old Norse. Hávamál, I. 10 in Corpus Poeticum Boreale; stanza 139 in Hildebrand's Lieder der Älteren Edda. 1922) 'Verily, verily I say to you unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone, but if it dies it bears much fruit. He who loves his life loses it.' (Christian. John 12:24,25)
C. S. Lewis, Appendix to The Abolition of Man.Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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StephenB, #65
Similarly, if there is no objective standard of virtue, then there is no way to distinguish between heroicly good behavior and radically bad behavior.
If we each define our own standard of virtue, wouldn't we also be able to make our own determination of what is heroic and what is bad?camanintx
October 8, 2009
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Clive Hayden, #64
The inch or metric system is arbitrarily defined, but the actual physical measurement that it is employing is objective.
Measuring anything involves making a relative comparison to an arbitrary standard. While a given property of an object may be objective, comparing it to another is a purely subjective action.camanintx
October 8, 2009
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----camanintx: "Would you need a ruler to tell me if one object is longer than another?" You are misapplying Clive's metaphor of "measuring stick." Do you not understand, for example, that only if perfect health is held up as the "measuring stick," or "standard," can we speak of varying degrees of health, such as poor, fair, good, better, and best. Similarly, if there is no objective standard of virtue, then there is no way to distinguish between heroicly good behavior and radically bad behavior.StephenB
October 8, 2009
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camanintx,
You do realize that the “inch” measured by your ruler is an arbitrary standard, don’t you? When I say that one object is 3 inches and another is 4 inches, I am still making relative measurements to an arbitrary standard.
The inch or metric system is arbitrarily defined, but the actual physical measurement that it is employing is objective.Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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Clive Hayden, #61
This is personal preference once again, which, leads me to ask, are you saying that morality is a matter of personal preference like preferring blonds?
Since history is replete with examples of people who held different moral standards, I would think that was obvious.camanintx
October 8, 2009
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Clive Hayden, #57
camanintx, Now you’ve switched the objects to measuring themselves objectively, in which case they are the objective rulers by comparison, but that is not relativity by any means. Relativity is if there were no objective measurements at which to measure, by a ruler or by comparison to each other. Your bait and switch doesn’t work.
You do realize that the "inch" measured by your ruler is an arbitrary standard, don't you? When I say that one object is 3 inches and another is 4 inches, I am still making relative measurements to an arbitrary standard.camanintx
October 8, 2009
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camanintx,
If everyone in the world preferred blond hair and blue eyes over black hair and brown eyes, would you be arguing that an objective standard of beauty exists?
This is personal preference once again, which, leads me to ask, are you saying that morality is a matter of personal preference like preferring blonds?Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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Clive Hayden, #54
What other criteria would you need for objectivity than absolutism?
If everyone in the world preferred blond hair and blue eyes over black hair and brown eyes, would you be arguing that an objective standard of beauty exists?camanintx
October 8, 2009
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Everything is relative and subject to equivocation until its your daughter. Materialists throw out the golden rule as if it is an objective standard. What if my golden rule is "might makes right"? What makes one golden rule more moral than the other?William J. Murray
October 8, 2009
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angryoldfatman, #55
How long is long, camanintix?
Longer than short.camanintx
October 8, 2009
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camanintx, Now you've switched the objects to measuring themselves objectively, in which case they are the objective rulers by comparison, but that is not relativity by any means. Relativity is if there were no objective measurements at which to measure, by a ruler or by comparison to each other. Your bait and switch doesn't work.Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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Editors comment on my comment #41 EDITOR: But you have an idea of the “good.” Otherwise, your statement would be meaningless. Barry I think in the past you have quoted Wittgenstein so I presume you are familiar with the Philosophical Investigations. Two of the many lessons to be drawn from that work are: * Words don't have to refer to something to have meaning. * Most words and concepts don't have a crisp set of criteria defining their meaning - but they are still meaningful. It is often better to look at them as tools in a sphere of human life. (It is a lot more subtle than that - but I am not about to write an essay) This applies to ethical language (although paradoxically I am not sure Wittgenstein would have agree). When we refer to an action as good or right we are blending an implied description of the facts of the case with an exhortation to others to do similar things and applause for the doer - plus other elements. To try and pick out the essential elements and say that is what makes it "good" is a hopeless exercise. But that doesn't mean moral discourse is empty or purely subjective. Or that we cannot give reasons for saying that something is good. Or cannot argue the case for something being good. But don't expect a definitive answer.Mark Frank
October 8, 2009
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How long is long, camanintix?angryoldfatman
October 8, 2009
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camanintx,
Even if we assume for the sake of argument that drugging, raping and sodomizing a young girl Is wrong in all times and at all places (even Hollywood), just because something is universal does not make it objective.
Sure it does. What other criteria would you need for objectivity than absolutism?Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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---Clive Hayden: "The measuring stick cannot also be relative, otherwise you can do no measuring." It is remarkable that postmodernist critics cannot perceive this.StephenB
October 8, 2009
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Clive Hayden, #49
camanintx, The measuring stick cannot also be relative, otherwise you can do no measuring.
Would you need a ruler to tell me if one object is longer than another?camanintx
October 8, 2009
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----Mark Frank: "Easily. Van Gogh was a better painter than I am. But I have no ideal of best painter." Surely you understand that "good," "better," and "best" are all measurements against the apprehended ideal that differentiates one from the other.StephenB
October 8, 2009
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EDITOR: Is that what you are saying? Since morality is a subjective term, yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Even if we assume for the sake of argument that drugging, raping and sodomizing a young girl Is wrong in all times and at all places (even Hollywood), just because something is universal does not make it objective.camanintx
October 8, 2009
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camanintx, The measuring stick cannot also be relative, otherwise you can do no measuring.Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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Clive Hayden, #21
How can you call something “better” unless you have a fixed ideal of what is “best”?
Why does one need an objective standard to measure relative properties?camanintx
October 8, 2009
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Mark,
I think we would all agree that Clive Hayden is a better person than Pol Pot. But can you tell me your ideal of the best person?
That's easy. That would be Jesus. The bigger point here is that being closer to something, entails that the something be fixed. If the standard isn't fixed, we cannot claim that something is closer to it. You can only get closer to the train station as long as it is not as mobile as the train. To say that something is better than something else means that it is in a proximity closer to that which is best. Clive Hayden
October 8, 2009
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#42 Mark Frank, Me: Van Gogh was a better painter than I am. But I have no ideal of best painter. Clive: This, of course, is not true. I am deeply flattered - but really I am not that good. Or are you referring to your knowledge of what is going on in my mind? And secondly, are you saying that your preference in painting is also a preference in morality? I didn't realise you were confining the range to morally better. However, the same concept can easily be extended to moral matters. I think we would all agree that Clive Hayden is a better person than Pol Pot. But can you tell me your ideal of the best person?Mark Frank
October 8, 2009
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“Is it wrong in all times and at all places (even Hollywood) for a 44 year-old man to drug, rape and sodomize a 13 year-old girl?”
Of course, but what do Kevin Ogle, Jeff Hannah, John Bonine, Steven Haney, Roy Long and Marshal Seymour think about it?osteonectin
October 8, 2009
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----Nakashima: "My answers are “yes”,and axioms such as the Golden Rule and Todd’s “I own myself.” How do those noble but ambiguous standards help you when they come into conflict with one another? Does your composite formulation allow you to take a definitive position on abortion and/or pornography?StephenB
October 8, 2009
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For our materialist friends who answer “yes” to the question (as I hope you will), I have a follow-up question: “How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”
Because the society in which I and Polanski (at the time) live in define it as such. Had Polanski lived in 6th century Arabia, he probably would have been treated differently, no? EDITOR: Let's assume for the sake of argument that drugging, raping and sodomizing a young girl was considered moral behavior in Arabia between the years 501 and 600 AD [I by no means concede that, but will accept it arguendo]. On the basis of your response, camanintx, I assume you would say that the fact that it was considered moral behavior in the society in which it occurred, is in fact determinative of the morality of the behavior, and therefore if Polanski had done what he did in that place and time it would have been moral. Is that what you are saying?camanintx
October 8, 2009
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