Intelligent Design

Climate Alarmists: Prosecute Skeptics As If They Were Gangsters

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“A Disgrace to the Profession”: The World’s Scientists on Michael E Mann, his Hockey Stick and their Damage to Science
by Mark Steyn
Defend Free Speech
September 18, 2015

One of the most malodorous and disreputable aspects of American jurisprudence is the way laws intended to have very narrow application metastasize to target almost anyone the government is minded to stick it to. Thus, the 1970 Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act – RICO – which, as its name suggests, was originally aimed at racketeers, but by 2007 was being deployed against, for example, my old boss Conrad Black. US Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald decided to deploy RICO against Canadian newspaper publishers he’d taken a dislike to because he could. That’s how federal law works.

Why shouldn’t others get a piece of the action? Frustrated at the failure of global-warming alarmism to shift an apathetic public, Big Climate could do several things. Most obviously, they could resume public debate with those who disagree with them, win the argument and thereby persuade the people – which is how change is effected in self-governing societies.
Instead, twenty of them have written to the President to demand that the most powerful government on earth use the RICO laws to prosecute climate “skeptics” and “deniers”. Instead of winning the debate, it’s easier to criminalize it.

Just for the record, here are the 20 climate scientists eager to jail those who disagree with them:

Jagadish Shukla, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
Edward Maibach, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
Paul Dirmeyer, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
Barry Klinger, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
Paul Schopf, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
David Straus, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
Edward Sarachik, University of Washington, Seattle, WA
Michael Wallace, University of Washington, Seattle, WA
Alan Robock, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ
Eugenia Kalnay, University of Maryland, College Park, MD
William Lau, University of Maryland, College Park, MD
Kevin Trenberth, National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, CO
T.N. Krishnamurti, Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL
Vasu Misra, Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL
Ben Kirtman, University of Miami, Miami, FL
Robert Dickinson, University of Texas, Austin, TX
Michela Biasutti, Earth Institute, Columbia University, New York, NY
Mark Cane, Columbia University, New York, NY
Lisa Goddard, Earth Institute, Columbia University, New York, NY
Alan Betts, Atmospheric Research, Pittsford, VT

On that last name, I wasn’t aware that Pittsford boasted any world-class scientific institutions, but it is apparently home to “Vermont’s leading climate scientist”.

I’ve put all the signatories here so I can find them in one convenient place when I come to write a sequel to my new bookcalled Twenty More Disgraces to the Profession. Judith Curry quotes Peter Webster, who wrote to one of the above named thus:

You have signed the death warrant for science.

Granted (as I know from my trial preparation of the last three years) that scientists can be a little unworldly, there is still no excuse for any of them not knowing perfectly well the appalling implications of what they were signing. It is a euphemism to call them, as Dr Curry does, “advocates” – because the intolerant totalitarian nature of what they want makes plain that they are dissatisfied with mere “advocating” and would rather advance to demanding and ordering, and with the full power of the state behind them.
On page xii of the introduction to my new book, I write:

“Mann is suing me for defamation. I’d like to win that case – because losing it would be the worst setback for free speech in America in the half-century since New York Times vs Sullivan.”

But as important a goal for me is lifting the climate of fear that Mann and his fellow enforcers have imposed on a critical field of science and in the broader sphere of public policy. The ugly retaliation that the climate mullahs use against anyone who steps out of line – as we’ll see later in the hockey-sticking of distinguished Swedish scientist Lennart Bengtsson – ought to appall any real man of science. You shouldn’t have to be a Nobel Laureate like Ivar Giaever or as well-connected as Michael Liebreich to be able to speak out without suffering bloody reprisals. So I’d like to end the protection racket of the Clime Syndicate and put them out of the intimidation business.
That’s why I wrote the book, that’s why I’m sticking with this Mann vs Steyn case all the way to the Supreme Court, if necessary. The 20 additional disgraces to the profession above have, alas, made it clear that they’re not going to change their ways. And so climatology’s embrace of Lynsenkoism – science subordinate to ideology – grows ever more shameless.

59 Replies to “Climate Alarmists: Prosecute Skeptics As If They Were Gangsters

  1. 1
    Barry Arrington says:

    I am curious if any of the environmentalists who regularly post on this site will denounce these thugs’ attempt to have the government prosecute their intellectual opponents as criminals.

    Will you?

    If not, your silence will itself speak volumes.

  2. 2
    Starbuck says:

    Absolutely, along with other nutjob reality deniers that think vaccines are bad, for example.

  3. 3
    wd400 says:

    I don’t know (or to be honest care) enough about US law to know whether such an inquiry is apporopriate. But it’s pretty obvious from the letter that these authors aren’t attempting to silence genuine “intellectual opponents”. Rather, they are talking about “corporations and other organizations that have knowingly deceived the American people”

  4. 4
    mike1962 says:

    Excellent article by Matt Ridley about what the climate war has done to science:

    http://www.rationaloptimist.co.....ience.aspx

  5. 5
    Tom Robbins says:

    Starbuck -Their is research to suggest these super vaccinations (where they bundle them all into one shot) can cause very adverse affects and need further study. There are several people who have died, including a 13 year old girl, with the vaccination for an STD that can cause cervical cancer (which of course the government pushed for big pharma on girls that are too young to be even considering sex). Not questioning is not science, and you answered, with same brainless black and white BS we have had to deal with for decades – way to go… I have noticed, like with Planned Parenthood vids, etc. the progressive globalist with no perspective on history, tend NOT to confront any fraud if it is their “team”, instead, they try and pick another topic where they also claim some kind of perverted moral ground. You and others like you (your worldview) seem to be black and white, and furthermore, an incredible ability to refuse introspection on ones on self. Their are some studies that suggest that this is biological, tending toward the autistic spectrum, where you can’t stand change, and changing a world view, is out of the question, so you shuck and jive through all comments, or just “insert expletive here” and try and assassinate the character of entire groups of very diverse people – that’s why we get so incredibly frustrated with your views, they are unyielding to logic, data, introspection, or a middle ground. You shoot the messenger, employ whatever tactic to support a world view, that many times is not even based on knowledge, just part of your “teams” mantra. And worst of all, your world view tend to be one that cuts all of our throats, including your own.

  6. 6
    wd400 says:

    Starbuck -Their is research to suggest these super vaccinations (where they bundle them all into one shot) can cause very adverse affects and need further study

    Citation?

  7. 7
    Mapou says:

    What does climate science have to do with vaccination? Ah, I see. The old tired atheist tactic of creating false associations out of thin air and then claiming victory. This whole thing is just more evidence that atheists, like all religionists, are inherently fascists. They need to be cut down to size.

  8. 8
    Andre says:

    Why would anyone with access to information ask for a citation?

  9. 9
    Andre says:

    Al Gore and these “researchers” he quoted should be the first people to be arrested. On record they said that the ice caps will be gone by 2014. It’s on record! Jail them for fraud.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVttichSzFk

  10. 10
    Starbuck says:

    Anyone who aims to convince others of falsehoods that would cause harm (climate change denial, anti-vaccine nonsense) should be highly penalized , even jailed.

  11. 11
    wd400 says:

    Are you serious Andre? Referencing my paper is going to be much easier — “just google scholar it, you have access”.

  12. 12
    Barry Arrington says:

    wd400 @ 3:

    I take your point. However, in the context of this discussion the phrase “have knowingly deceived the American people” means “have disagreed with us about the science.” Still think they should be persecuted?

  13. 13
    Barry Arrington says:

    Starbucks

    “If you disagree with me on the climate change issue you should be put in jail.”

    The fascist impulse at the heart of the progressive agenda rears its ugly head.

  14. 14
    wd400 says:

    I don’t agree that’s what that phrase means, but I don’t think anyone should be prosecuted for simply disagreeing with mainstream science.

    Actively misleading the public to make a profit is quite a different thing and (my ignorance of US law aside) it might well be reasonable for people and corporations to be prosecuted for that.

  15. 15
    bornagain77 says:

    “What does climate science have to do with vaccination?”

    Indeed, what does vaccination have to do with materialistic, i.e. Darwinian, thought in the first place?

    Louis Pasteur, renowned for his discoveries of the principles of vaccination, thought materialistic philosophers to be foolish.

    Louis Pasteur (December 27, 1822 – September 28, 1895) was a French chemist and microbiologist renowned for his discoveries of the principles of vaccination, microbial fermentation and pasteurization. He is remembered for his remarkable breakthroughs in the causes and preventions of diseases, and his discoveries have saved countless lives ever since.
    per wikipedia

    Louis Pasteur on life, matter, and spontaneous generation – June 21, 2015
    “Science brings men nearer to God.,,
    Posterity will one day laugh at the foolishness of modern materialistic philosophers. The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator. I pray while I am engaged at my work in the laboratory.,,
    The Greeks understood the mysterious power of the below things. They are the ones who gave us one of the most beautiful words in our language, the word enthusiasm: a God within.,,,
    I have been looking for spontaneous generation for twenty years without discovering it. No, I do not judge it impossible. But what allows you to make it the origin of life? You place matter before life and you decide that matter has existed for all eternity. How do you know that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists to consider that life has existed during eternity, and not matter? You pass from matter to life because your intelligence of today cannot conceive things otherwise. How do you know that in ten thousand years, one will not consider it more likely that matter has emerged from life? You move from matter to life because your current intelligence, so limited compared to what will be the future intelligence of the naturalist, tells you that things cannot be understand otherwise. If you want to be among the scientific minds, what only counts is that you will have to get rid of a priori reasoning and ideas, and you will have to do necessary deductions not giving more confidence than we should to deductions from wild speculation.”
    [en francais, Pasteur et la philosophie, Patrice Pinet, Editions L’Harmattan, p. 63.]

    Edward Jenner, who, like Pasteur, was a devout Christian, and who also was instrumental in the smallpox vaccination, was an English physician who was a champion of vaccination in spite of ‘fierce opposition and in the teeth of threats against himself.’

    “The most famous champion of vaccination was a Christian doctor, *Edward Jenner* who did his work against fierce opposition and in the teeth of threats against himself. In effect he wiped out smallpox from among the diseases that terrify mankind. He died from a cold caught carrying firewood to an impoverished woman.”
    http://www.rae.org/pdf/influsci.pdf

    As to polio and measles, John Enders, “The Father of Modern Vaccines”, stated that “There must be a mind behind it all.”

    John Enders, MD
    Death Bed: “On a September evening at their water front home in Connecticut, in 1985, Enders was reading T.S. Eliot aloud to his wife, Carolyn. He finished and went to bed, then quietly died. He was eighty-eight. At his memorial service his friend, the Bishop F.C. Laurence, said, “John Enders never lost his sense of wonder – wonder at the great mystery that exists and surrounds all of God’s creation. This awareness is what gave him his wide vision and open mindedness, his continued interest in all things new, his ability to listen, his humility in the presence of this great mystery, and his never-ending search for the truth.” His widow said that John briefly revealed his heart when he told her, concerning how creation ran, “There must be a mind behind it all.”
    http://www.scienceheroes.com/i.....Itemid=117
    of note:
    T.S. Eliot’s extraordinary journey of faith
    http://www.abc.net.au/religion.....972229.htm

    The same with antibiotics. Antibiotics pioneer Ernst Chain said he “would rather believe in fairies than in such wild speculation” as Darwinism

    Ernst Chain: Antibiotics Pioneer
    Excerpt: In 1938, Chain stumbled across Alexander Fleming’s 1929 paper on penicillin in the British Journal of Experimental Pathology, which he brought to the attention of his colleague Florey.7 During their research, Chain isolated and purified penicillin. It was largely this work that earned him his numerous honors and awards, including a fellow of the Royal Society and numerous honorary degrees,8 the Pasteur Medal, the Paul Ehrlich Centenary Prize, the Berzelius Medal, and a knighthood.9,,,
    Chain concluded that he “would rather believe in fairies than in such wild speculation” as Darwinism.,,,
    Chain made it very clear what he believed about the Creator and our relationship to Him. He wrote that scientists “looking for ultimate guidance in questions of moral responsibility” would do well to “turn, or return, to the fundamental and lasting values of the code of ethical behaviour forming part of the divine message which man was uniquely privileged to receive through the intermediation of a few chosen individuals.”19
    http://www.icr.org/article/ern.....s-pioneer/

    Philip Skell was equally scathing of Darwinian evolution

    “Certainly, my own research with antibiotics during World War II received no guidance from insights provided by Darwinian evolution. Nor did Alexander Fleming’s discovery of bacterial inhibition by penicillin. I recently asked more than 70 eminent researchers if they would have done their work differently if they had thought Darwin’s theory was wrong. The responses were all the same: No.,,,
    Darwinian evolution – whatever its other virtues – does not provide a fruitful heuristic in experimental biology.
    Philip S. Skell – (the late) Emeritus Evan Pugh Professor at Pennsylvania State University, and a member of the National Academy of Sciences.
    http://www.discovery.org/a/2816

    In fact, it is by recognizing the limits of what unguided material processes can do, (recognizing that there are in fact strict limits to what Darwinian processes can do), that the most promising avenues of medical research into new drugs that combat disease are now being found:

    Guide of the Perplexed: A Quick Reprise of The Edge of Evolution – Michael Behe – August 20, 2014
    Excerpt: If there were a second drug with the efficacy of chloroquine which had always been administered in combination with it (but worked by a different mechanism), resistance to the combination would be expected to arise with a frequency in the neighborhood of 1 in 10^40 — a medical triumph.
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....89161.html

    The multiple drug cocktail that has been so effective in controlling HIV uses much the same strategy of being beyond the ‘edge of evolution’ that Dr. Behe elucidated in the preceding article:

    When taking any single drug, it is fairly likely that some mutant virus in the patient might happen to be resistant, survive the onslaught, and spawn a resistant lineage.
    But the probability that the patient hosts a mutant virus that happens to be resistant to several different drugs at the same time is much lower.,,,
    it “costs” a pest or pathogen to be resistant to a pesticide or drug. If you place resistant and non-resistant organisms in head-to-head competition in the absence of the pesticide or drug, the non-resistant organisms generally win.,,,
    This therapy has shown early, promising results — it may not eliminate HIV, but it could keep patients’ virus loads low for a long time, slowing progression of the disease.
    http://evolution.berkeley.edu/.....edicine_04

    Neurosurgeon Michael Egnor states Darwinian explanations by themselves are ‘worthless to medicine’.

    Darwinian Medicine and Proximate and Evolutionary Explanations – Michael Egnor – neurosurgeon – June 2011
    Excerpt: 4) Evolutionary explanations by themselves are worthless to medicine. All medical treatments are based on detailed proximate explanations.
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....47701.html

    Ferngren states “Darwin’s theory did not make a significant contribution to clinical medicine.”

    Limited role of Darwinism in medicine – May 2, 2014
    Excerpt: In eight well-written and thoroughly researched chapters, Ferngren takes the reader from ancient times to the Greco-Roman period, early Christianity, into the Middle Ages and the Islamic world, to the early modern period, and on into the 19th and 20th centuries. The roots of Western medicine, we learn, can be found in the transformative effects of Judeo-Christian traditions.
    But the story told here is also about the eclipse of those traditions. While it is not a book on or about Darwinism, Ferngren states accurately that “Darwin’s theory did not make a significant contribution to clinical medicine.”
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....-medicine/

  16. 16
    bornagain77 says:

    In fact, in so far as the Darwinian meta-narrative has influenced medical diagnostics, it has led to much medical malpractice in the past:

    Evolution’s “vestigial organ” argument debunked
    Excerpt: “The appendix, like the once ‘vestigial’ tonsils and adenoids, is a lymphoid organ (part of the body’s immune system) which makes antibodies against infections in the digestive system. Believing it to be a useless evolutionary ‘left over,’ many surgeons once removed even the healthy appendix whenever they were in the abdominal cavity. Today, removal of a healthy appendix under most circumstances would be considered medical malpractice” (David Menton, Ph.D., “The Human Tail, and Other Tales of Evolution,” St. Louis MetroVoice , January 1994, Vol. 4, No. 1).
    “Doctors once thought tonsils were simply useless evolutionary leftovers and took them out thinking that it could do no harm. Today there is considerable evidence that there are more troubles in the upper respiratory tract after tonsil removal than before, and doctors generally agree that simple enlargement of tonsils is hardly an indication for surgery” (J.D. Ratcliff, Your Body and How it Works, 1975, p. 137).
    The tailbone, properly known as the coccyx, is another supposed example of a vestigial structure that has been found to have a valuable function—especially regarding the ability to sit comfortably. Many people who have had this bone removed have great difficulty sitting.
    http://www.ucg.org/science/god.....-debunked/

    In fact besides medical malpractice, Darwinian evolution, with its false predictions, such as ‘junk DNA, has a long history of sending all of biological science down blind alleys instead of fostering medical breakthroughs:

    Why investigate evolution’s false predictions?
    Excerpt: The predictions examined in this paper were selected according to several criteria. They cover a wide spectrum of evolutionary theory and are fundamental to the theory, reflecting major tenets of evolutionary thought. They were widely held by the consensus rather than reflecting one viewpoint of several competing viewpoints. Each prediction was a natural and fundamental expectation of the theory of evolution, and constituted mainstream evolutionary science. Furthermore, the selected predictions are not vague but rather are specific and can be objectively evaluated. They have been tested and evaluated and the outcome is not controversial or in question. And finally the predictions have implications for evolution’s (in)capacity to explain phenomena, as discussed in the conclusions.
    https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/why-investigate-evolution-s-false-predictions

    Of supplemental note to atheists always bringing up the chestnut of vaccination to pretend they are ‘scientific’ and all Christians aren’t since a few Christians (and even non-Christians) take exception to them, if atheists were truly concerned with maintaining a healthy society then they should be first and foremost to renounce their atheism since atheism is shown to be very unhealthy for individuals and for society as a whole:

    Atheism and health
    A meta-analysis of all studies, both published and unpublished, relating to religious involvement and longevity was carried out in 2000. Forty-two studies were included, involving some 126,000 subjects. Active religious involvement increased the chance of living longer by some 29%, and participation in public religious practices, such as church attendance, increased the chance of living longer by 43%.[4][5]
    http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_health

    “The ultimate irony is that this philosophy implies that Darwinism itself is just another meme, competing in the infectivity sweepstakes by attaching itself to that seductive word “science.” Dawkins ceaselessly urges us to be rational, but he does so in the name of a philosophy that implies that no such thing as rationality exists because our thoughts are at the mercy of our genes and memes. The proper conclusion is that the Dawkins poor brain has been infected by the Darwin meme, a virus of the mind if ever there was one, and we wonder if he will ever be able to find the cure.”
    ~ Phillip Johnson

    The unmitigated horror visited upon man, by state sponsored atheism, would be hard to exaggerate,,, Here’s what happens when Atheists/evolutionists/non-Christians take control of Government:

    “169,202,000 Murdered: Summary and Conclusions [20th Century Democide]
    I BACKGROUND
    2. The New Concept of Democide [Definition of Democide]
    3. Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth Century Democide
    II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS
    4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
    5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
    6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
    7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime
    III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS
    8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan’s Savage Military
    9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
    10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey’s Genocidal Purges
    11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
    12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland’s Ethnic Cleansing
    13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
    14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito’s Slaughterhouse
    IV 4,145,000 VICTIMS: SUSPECTED MEGAMURDERERS
    15. 1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea
    16. 1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico
    17. 1,066,000 Murdered? Feudal Russia”

    This is, in reality, probably just a drop in the bucket. Who knows how many undocumented murders there were. It also doesn’t count all the millions of abortions from around the world.
    http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

    Verse and Music:

    Matthew 7:18
    A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

    Chris Tomlin – At The Cross (Love Ran Red Acoustic Sessions)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORyXT2ZRwUE

  17. 17
    cantor says:

    .

    Here’s a list of just a few of the men and women Starbucks would have thrown into the dungeon:

    Barry Marshall and Robin Warren

    Ludwig Boltzmann

    Georg Cantor

    Luis Alvarez

    Alfred Wegener

    Dan Shechtman

    Barbara McClintock

    Lynn Margulis

    .

  18. 18
    computerist says:

    Hold on, isn’t it the atheists position that there is no real purpose/meaning to life and that we should put full trust in the blind-watchmaker as the alpha and omega, yet we must be worried about global warming and its impact on earth and human civilization?

  19. 19
    bornagain77 says:

    If we were to start jailing people for scientific fraud, leading neo-Darwinists should be at the head of the line.

  20. 20
    Mapou says:

    Starbucks:

    Anyone who aims to convince others of falsehoods that would cause harm (climate change denial, anti-vaccine nonsense) should be highly penalized , even jailed.

    Anyone who lies to the whole world about the climate and about the origin of life on earth should be tarred and feathered and paraded around for all to see.

  21. 21
    asauber says:

    “Actively misleading the public to make a profit is quite a different thing and (my ignorance of US law aside) it might well be reasonable for people and corporations to be prosecuted for that.”

    What about misleading the public for command and control purposes, like official agencies often do?

    Andrew

  22. 22
    Heartlander says:

    Starbuck@10 Anyone who aims to convince others of falsehoods that would cause harm (climate change denial, anti-vaccine nonsense) should be highly penalized, even jailed.

    Who decides the “falsehoods that would cause harm”? Richard Dawkins?, North Korea?, China?, ISIS?, extreme environmentalists ?, science?…

  23. 23
    cantor says:

    22 Heartlander September 21, 2015 at 2:56 pm

    Who decides the “falsehoods that would cause harm”?

    Big Brother.

    — Orwell, 1984

    .

  24. 24
    Robert Byers says:

    IT is another brick in the wall against free men, seeking truth, with contract for free speech in North America.
    How dare they tell us to be silent or that we are wrong, or right, vased on their conclusions!!
    They mean silene opposition to thier important conclusions and so lead the people to a common conclusion IF important opposition is silenced.
    They did it before on earth and here we go again. So be it . There is SUCH a war against our rights that I welcome this battle. They want moral/judicial/intellectual war then let them have war to a full measure.
    Its our turn to fight the bad/dumb/evil folks in mankind.
    There is no human global warming cause.
    Its just upper class people wantibng a better cleaner future world.
    Its a myth
    If I may say so. Scratch that. I may say so and insist I may.

  25. 25
    groovamos says:

    WD400: Actively misleading the public to make a profit is quite a different thing

    So then it will be up to you would-be gestapo to prove that in a particular year in which offending speech is perceived by an entity, that the particular entity was actually making a profit instead of incurring/minimizing loss. Or whether profit is even in the business model. Or indeed interpret for the rest of us unimportant ones what is actually considered “profit”.

    I love how leftists think that all businesses make “profit”. In their brilliance they seem to not realize that not only are many organizations, incorporated or not, nonprofit (e.g. Liberty Mutual), companies can and do incur losses. It’s called the profit/loss model but nobody should think modesty will follow ignorance in these people

    But our society apparently needs people like WD400 to decide for what reasons any organization exists, independently of what they themselves think, and then apply the answer to a decision to use government coercion against them for their speech. And give the Sierra Club (a corporation) a pass of course.

  26. 26
    wd400 says:

    You certainly honed in on the most important detail here, groovamos…

  27. 27
    groovamos says:

    So if one of the details of a ridiculous statist proposal is unimportant, why expose yourself such as you did by even mentioning it. It appears you are deadly confident in your black and white abilities to determine who gets your discipline by force for exercising their natural rights. Oh and the American Petroleum Institute is another one of those nonprofits.

  28. 28
    wd400 says:

    Statist proposal? I think you are bringing your own (US-specific) political baggage into this.

    All I meant was the idea of prosecuting a person of corporation for conspiring to mislead the public for their own advantage seemed reasonable to me.

  29. 29
  30. 30
    groovamos says:

    Yes yes we in the USA by definition have “political baggage” when it comes to natural rights, what a concept. Thank you for that surprising insight.

    Why don’t you define for all of us right here and now what is a “corporation”. I noticed you did not define for us “profit”. The American Petroleum Institute is incorporated, do they get your retribution for exercising their natural rights? BTW we in the USA mostly have little patience for the rest of the world telling us how to speak. In case you were not too clear on that.

  31. 31
    wd400 says:

    OK, you want to sound off about… whatever you are going on about. I’d rather talk about the topic of the thread. Bye.

  32. 32
    Seversky says:

    Barry Arrington @ 1

    I am curious if any of the environmentalists who regularly post on this site will denounce these thugs’ attempt to have the government prosecute their intellectual opponents as criminals.

    I certainly would – if that’s what they’re doing.

    What they’re actually after, according to the letter, is “corporations and other organizations that have knowingly deceived the American people about the risks of climate change” Of course. corporations are knowingly deceiving the American public all the time – it’s called advertising.

    More seriously, even if what those corporations are doing is as egregious as is being suggested, I’m not sure legal action is the right approach, though. Simply exposing the lies, if that’s what they are, would be much better. Lawsuits are ridiculously expensive and a verdict, whichever side it favors, would probably not change many minds.

  33. 33
    Seversky says:

    bornagain77 @ 16

    For the umpteenth time:

    “169,202,000 Murdered: Summary and Conclusions [20th Century Democide]
    I BACKGROUND
    2. The New Concept of Democide [Definition of Democide]
    3. Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth Century Democide
    II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS
    4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
    5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
    6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
    7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime
    III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS
    8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan’s Savage Military
    9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
    10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey’s Genocidal Purges
    11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
    12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland’s Ethnic Cleansing
    13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
    14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito’s Slaughterhouse
    IV 4,145,000 VICTIMS: SUSPECTED MEGAMURDERERS
    15. 1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea
    16. 1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico
    17. 1,066,000 Murdered? Feudal Russia

    The other side of the coin:

    I kill … I wound … I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and mine sword shall devour flesh. — Deuteronomy 32:39-42

    A few choice examples of casualty figures associated with the above. The estimates are necessarily as vague as some of the figures in the other list :

    1 20,000,000 dead – The Flood of Noah – Gen 7:23
    2 2,000 dead – Sodom and Gomorrah – Gen 19:24
    3 70,000 dead – A seven year worldwide famine – Gen 41:25-54
    4 10,000 dead – The first plague of Egypt – Ex 7:15-27
    5 300,000 dead – The seventh plague: hail – Ex 9:25
    6 500,000 dead – Firstborn Egyptian children – Ex 12:29-30
    7 1,000 dead – Amalekites – Ex 17:13
    8 14,700 dead – God kills 14,700 for complaining – Num 16:49
    9 200,000 dead – The Midianite massacre – Num 31:1-35
    10 500,000 dead – God kills the Israelite army – Dt 2:14-16
    11 60,000 dead – Og and all the men women, and children in 60 cities – Dt 3:6
    12 12,000 dead – the Ai massacre – Jos 8:1-25
    13 120,000 dead – Gideon’s story – Jg 7:22
    14 42,000 dead – for failing the “shibboleth” test – Jg 12:4-7
    15 34,002 dead – God killed Eli’s sons and 34,000 Israelite soldiers – 1 Sam 2:25, 4:11
    16 185,000 dead – sleeping soldiers killed by an angel – 2 Kg 19:34, 37:36
    17 1,000,000 dead – God killed a million Ethiopians – 2 Chr 14:9-14
    18 147,002 dead – Nicanor’s army – 1 Mac 7:32-47, 2 Mac 8:24,
    Anyone who’s interested can find the full list here

  34. 34
    groovamos says:

    WD400 I’d rather talk about the topic of the thread. Bye.

    Big time thinker bows out without telling us how (s)he, would-be gestapo, would split hairs in deciding who would qualify for insidious forceful attack over speech. Using big government allies of course. Which did read like a European approach or even a Canadian one: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/f.....n-1.720445

  35. 35
    Learned Hand says:

    More seriously, even if what those corporations are doing is as egregious as is being suggested, I’m not sure legal action is the right approach, though. Simply exposing the lies, if that’s what they are, would be much better. Lawsuits are ridiculously expensive and a verdict, whichever side it favors, would probably not change many minds.

    Concur. The idea of massive RICO suits against major corporations is bonkers. If for no other reason, the sheer burden of proving fraudulent intent and the other elements of a RICO claim would be astronomical. More substantively, even assuming there’s real willful wrongdoing out there, the effort to find and punish it would have huge collateral impacts on all kinds of other protected activity.

    And I also hope we see a lot more legal commentary coming out of Steyn. In the past, the results have been hilarious.

  36. 36
    groovamos says:

    From the piece linked above:

    As I have often tried to explain to my American colleagues, we Canadians simply don’t have a history of free speech comparable to what exists in the U.S.

    Our institutions have been controlling speech and information for so long that we barely blink at things that would shock an American.

    Canada currently has a federal government that tries to control almost every syllable spoken publicly by its bureaucrats and every bit of information disseminated to the public. Americans, who insist on scrutinizing politicians’ medical records and tax returns, simply would not stand for such secrecy.

    So Big Time Thinker thinks we just should roll over and take it from the likes of them.

  37. 37
    bornagain77 says:

    Seversky,

    Luke 12:5
    But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

  38. 38
    Seversky says:

    bornagain77 @ 37

    Luke 12:5
    But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

    Exactly, and you and your kind think this is a Good Thing, whereas Darwin best expressed what I think of that:

    I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother, and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine

  39. 39
    Virgil Cain says:

    The climate alarmists can’t do the math:

    The Mathematics of Carbon Dioxide, Part 1

    The Mathematics of Carbon Dioxide Part 2

    The Mathematics of Carbon Dioxide Part 3

    The Mathematics of Carbon Dioxide Part 4

    A doubling of CO2, from 280 ppm to 560 ppm, will cause only a 0.6 C increase in temperature. Climate alarmists should be imprisoned.

  40. 40
    Virgil Cain says:

    Seversky quoting Darwin:

    I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother, and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine

    I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Darwinism to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that men and women are just freak accidents of nature, nothing more than a mixture of chemicals, and this would include all of you reading, will be everlastingly meaningless. And that is a damnable doctrine.

  41. 41
    bornagain77 says:

    Seversky, it is not me and ‘my kind’ wishing that Christianity were true, it is me and ‘my kind’ humbly accepting the fact that Christianity is in fact ‘the truth’.

    Whereas you, as an atheist, live in denial of that truth.

    For instance, the argument from evil, that tired chestnut of an argument which you are currently trying to use against God in this thread, is actually a Theologically based argument which presupposes the existence of God.

    Thus, like all arguments against God, the argument you are currently using collapses in on itself.

    Why should you want to live your life based on flimsy lies such the one you are currently using?

    Despite your denial to the contrary, God is really real, and each and every one of us will have to give an account of ourselves before God when we die.

    I’m no better than you and I know that I’m a sinful man and that I cannot stand before a infinitely holy and just God based upon my own merit of what I have done in this life. (if there were any truly good totally unselfish thing that I have ever done in this life)

    That is why I very gratefully accept the propitiation that God has provided for me and ‘my kind’ in Christ Jesus, our Lord and Saviour from sin death and hell.

  42. 42
    Axel says:

    Virgil, you forgot to mention that Darwin’s doctrine, in principle, states that all human life is as eminently extinguishable as its appearance was random; although, in the real world, the weakest most merit to be put out with the garbage.

    In any case or faith is more than a simple matter of credence, being proved, rather, by a commitment to charitable actions towards our fellow human beings – a disposition found in the non-religious, but not in those who seek to set themselves up in competition with God, as do so many Darwinists and the truculent atheists, generally.

  43. 43
    groovamos says:

    BA77: Seversky, it is not me and ‘my kind’ wishing that Christianity were true, it is me and ‘my kind’ humbly accepting the fact that Christianity is in fact ‘the truth’.

    Whereas you, as an atheist, live in denial of that truth.

    So I am going to side with Seversky on this one. I have to because I’m somewhat well read in the world’s religions, also in consciousness research which indicates in no uncertain framework that hells and purgatories are provinces in the mind, both individually and collectively:
    http://www.amazon.com/review/R.....tore=books

    My sister and brother-in-law are evangelical. We often discuss religion on cordial but intense terms. I’ll never forget one such vigorous exchange with him and one question from me stopped him in his thought process: What good does eternal damnation do? I credit him more than myself for the effect this had on the debate, something inside of him realized the absurdity of a God wishing and planning punishment on His creatures. BTW brother-in-law is appreciative of my respect for their religion.

    Even violent death apparently is not punishment, I recall the story of a skydiver whose chute didn’t open and she landed in a tall evergreen unhurt but for a couple of broken bones. According to her, the mind was transferred to another realm as the ground was approaching, and her normal consciousness returned as she was decelerating in the foliage.

    In my view the fundamentalist obsession with sin and punishment is partly to blame for the current status of Christianity in the Western world and its modern scientific environment. It is largely responsible for my own abandonment of belief while in college — against the backdrop of all of the pleasure out there crudely dangled in front of me by campus leftists.

    Only after becoming uncomfortable in my own foibles did I decide to reverse course and take a wider, more comtemplative approach to my own evolution. So yours truly was determined to be able to approach a search for truth in a non-threatening mindset.

    In short I’m skeptical of the pronouncements by BA77 on faith here, and would appreciate a less in-your-face approach.

  44. 44
    Mapou says:

    Seversky, quoting BA77 quoting the Bible:

    Luke 12:5
    But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

    I am a Christian and I think this passage from Luke is despicable and certainly wrong. It’s obviously some crap inserted into the Bible by the early Catholic Church fathers. Other passages in the Bible clearly teach that the wages of sin is death, not eternal damnation in some burning hole. This hell business is a pagan belief inserted into Christianity by the Catholic Church. They’ve been doing this sort of crap for two thousand years.

  45. 45
    cantor says:

    40 Virgil Cain September 22, 2015 at 7:15 am

    I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Darwinism to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that men and women are just freak accidents of nature, nothing more than a mixture of chemicals, and this would include all of you reading, will be everlastingly meaningless. And that is a damnable doctrine.

    Game, Set, Match.

    .

  46. 46
    bornagain77 says:

    Whereas some might like to sit back and play armchair philosophers and speculate as to how, if they were God, they would never create hell since it would, in their view, serve no purpose, or it would be unjust, or etc.. etc.., or speculate that hell is just a foolish ‘mind game’, or etc.. etc.., the fact of the matter is that we do not have to play armchair philosophers any longer.

    From our best science, specifically from the physics of relativity, we can now actually see how God structured reality. Or at the very least we can get a rough idea how He structured reality.

    And exactly as would be expected on the Christian view of reality, we find two very different eternities in reality. An ‘infinitely destructive’ eternity associated with General Relativity and a extremely orderly eternity associated with Special Relativity:

    Special Relativity, General Relativity, Heaven and Hell:

    “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.”
    Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest – 2005

    Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6545941/

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12

    And, as with accelerating to the speed of light, it is found that for any ‘hypothetical’ observer falling to the event horizon of a black hole, that time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop for them. This is because the accelerative force of gravity at black holes is so intense that not even light can escape its grip:

    Gravitational time dilation tests
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.....tion_tests

    Space-Time of a Black hole – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0VOn9r4dq8

    And as with the ‘tunnel curvature’ we see in the space-time of a black hole, there is also tunnel curvature in space-time for any hypothetical observer accelerating to the speed of light. Please note, at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, (Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.).

    Seeing Relativity – Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4

    It is also very interesting to note that Special Relativity and General Relativity reveal two very different ‘qualities of eternity’ (as predicted in Christian Theism). In particular, Black Holes are found to be ‘timeless’ singularities of destruction and disorder. And Special Relativity is associated with the singularity of creation and order, i.e. the extreme (1 in 10^10^123) thermodynamic order we see at the creation event of the Big Bang.

    “But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic? It would appear that this question can be phrased in terms of the behaviour of the WEYL part of the space-time curvature at space-time singularities. What we appear to find is that there is a constraint WEYL = 0 (or something very like this) at initial space-time singularities-but not at final singularities-and this seems to be what confines the Creator’s choice to this very tiny region of phase space.”
    Roger Penrose – How Special Was The Big Bang?

    Entropy of the Universe – Hugh Ross – May 2010
    Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated.
    http://www.reasons.org/entropy-universe

    “The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the “source” of the Second Law (Entropy).”
    Roger Penrose – The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them?

    “This now tells us how precise the Creator’s aim must have been: namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10^123.”
    Penrose – The Emperor’s New Mind, pp 339-345 – 1989)

    “Einstein’s equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist.”
    Kip S. Thorne – “Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy” pg. 476

    Needless to say, the implications of this ‘eternity of destruction’ should be fairly disturbing for those of us who are of the ‘spiritually minded’ persuasion!

    Moreover, in stark contrast to multiverse (and Darwinian) claims, for which we have no direct observational evidence, we have actual observational evidence from Near Death Experience testimonies of eternity and also of people going through a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension,,,

    ‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’
    – Kimberly Clark Sharp – NDE Experiencer

    ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’
    – John Star – NDE Experiencer

    ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’
    In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video (27:45 minute mark)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s66DchGhhD0

    “I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.”
    Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv2jLeoAcMI

    Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? – article with video
    Excerpt: “Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…”
    – Jeffrey Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively
    http://abcnews.go.com/Nightlin....._gydvW8jbI

    “Regardless, it is impossible for me to adequately describe what I saw and felt. When I try to recount my experiences now, the description feels very pale. I feel as though I’m trying to describe a three-dimensional experience while living in a two-dimensional world. The appropriate words, descriptions and concepts don’t even exist in our current language. I have subsequently read the accounts of other people’s near-death experiences and their portrayals of heaven and I able to see the same limitations in their descriptions and vocabulary that I see in my own.”
    Mary C. Neal, MD – To Heaven And Back pg. 71

    As well, a man, at the 7:00 minute mark of this video, gives testimony of falling down a ‘tunnel’ in the transition stage from this world to hell:

    Hell – A Warning! – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HSgH2AHkfkw&list=PLCB5F225ABC1F7330#t=420

  47. 47
    bornagain77 says:

    In light of this dilemma that these two very different eternities present to us spiritually minded people, and the fact that Gravity is, in so far as we can tell, completely incompatible with Quantum Mechanics and Special Relativity (i.e. Quantum Electro-Dynamics),,, (i.e. the failure of string theory, M-theory, etc..) ,,in light of that dilemma, it is interesting to point out a subtle nuance on the Shroud of Turin. Namely that Gravity was overcome in the resurrection event of Christ:

    Particle Radiation from the Body – July 2012 – M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind
    Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images.
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/19tGkwrdg6cu5mH-RmlKxHv5KPMOL49qEU8MLGL6ojHU/edit

    A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? by Chuck Missler
    Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically.
    http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847

    THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. – Isabel Piczek – Particle Physicist
    Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox.
    http://shroud3d.com/findings/i.....-formation

    Turin shroud – (Particle Physicist explains event horizon) – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHVUGK6UFK8

    Moreover, as would be expected if General Relativity (Gravity), and Quantum Mechanics/Special Relativity (QED), were truly unified in the resurrection of Christ from death, the image on the shroud is found to be formed by a quantum process. The image was not formed by a ‘classical’ process:

    “It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was “lifted cleanly” from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state.”
    Kevin Moran – optical engineer

    The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008
    Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril.
    http://cab.unime.it/journals/i.....802004/271

    Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural – December 2011
    Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists.
    However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax.
    Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic.
    “The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,” they said.
    And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....79512.html

    Personally, considering the extreme difficulty that many brilliant minds have had in trying, and failing, to reconcile Quantum Mechanics and special relativity(QED), with Gravity,

    A Capella Science – Bohemian Gravity! – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rjbtsX7twc

    Considering that extreme difficulty, I consider the preceding ‘quantum’ nuance on the Shroud of Turin to be a subtle, but powerful, evidence substantiating Christ’s primary claim as to being our Savior from sin, death, and hell:

    John 8:23-24
    But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.

    G.O.S.P.E.L. – (the grace of propitiation) – poetry slam – video
    https://vimeo.com/20960385

    Verses and Music:

    Matthew 10:28
    “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Colossians 1:15-20
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    Jewel – Who will save your soul – Music Video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LukEq643Mk

  48. 48
    groovamos says:

    BA77: from our best science, specifically from the physics of relativity, we can now actually see how God structured reality. Or at the very least we can get a rough idea how He structured reality.

    And exactly as would be expected on the Christian view of reality, we find two very different eternities in reality. An ‘infinitely destructive’ eternity associated with General Relativity and a extremely orderly eternity associated with Special Relativity:

    If you are posting this as relevant to the topic of sin and resultant punishment by God, I got news for you, it won’t fly and BTW you ARE an armchair philosopher here so no more high horse OK?

    You can go back thousands of years BC to the Vedic writings and find plenty of references to the creation/destruction principle, we don’t need Christianity to establish this.

    So if you are thinking that the destruction facet has to do with God’s throwing souls into hell, I’m calling you out. The destruction facet applies to our letting our impure nature be destroyed, with plenty of help. Call it the obliteration of sin if you want, I have no problem with that. Thing is, people have been seeking for it for thousands of years BC and according to fundamentalism they were all failures who got tossed into hell.

    But you, if obliging God with the destruction of the “unsaved” or whatever, would be just obliging the destruction of Christianity in the Western world and we are seeing the effects all around.

  49. 49
    bornagain77 says:

    groovamos, and yet two very different eternities exist in reality.

    Go figure!

    There is no philosophical ‘high horse’ to it. That it just the way reality is found to be created and structured empirically.

    It is not about creating a better ‘sales pitch’ for Christianity.

    The empirical evidence is what it is.

    A Destructive Eternity and a Orderly Eternity are what we find empirically not philosophically.

    Accept or reject it. I don’t care.

    Myself, I find no reason, empirically, to change my position on there being two very different eternities, i.e. heaven and hell.

    Philosophical arguments, and creating better sales pitches for Christianity, certainly do not override empirical evidence in my book.

  50. 50
    Mapou says:

    BA77:

    A Destructive Eternity and a Orderly Eternity are what we find empirically not philosophically.

    I’ve come to the conclusion that BA77 is a purveyor of pure unmitigated BS. But then again, I’ve been similarly accused. LOL.

  51. 51
    cantor says:

    49 bornagain77 September 22, 2015 at 1:31 pm

    A Destructive Eternity and a Orderly Eternity are what we find empirically not philosophically.

    .

    I’m not sure I follow. What empirical evidence are you referring to?

    .

  52. 52
    bornagain77 says:

    Mapou you stated:

    “I’ve come to the conclusion that BA77 is a purveyor of pure unmitigated BS.”

    I stand by my claim that the time dilation of Special Relativity and the time dilation of General Relativity represent two very different qualities of eternity. And have provided a brief outline of the evidence to that effect in my previous posts 46 and 47.

    To further bolster my claim that Special Relativity and General Relativity represent two very different qualities of eternity, I point out that, whilst Special Relativity has successfully been unified with Quantum Mechanics (i.e. Quantum Electrodynamics), no one really has any firm clue how to successfully unify General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics and Special Relativity.

    Theories of the Universe: Quantum Mechanics vs. General Relativity
    Excerpt: The first attempt at unifying relativity and quantum mechanics took place when special relativity was merged with electromagnetism. This created the theory of quantum electrodynamics, or QED. It is an example of what has come to be known as relativistic quantum field theory, or just quantum field theory. QED is considered by most physicists to be the most precise theory of natural phenomena ever developed.
    In the 1960s and ’70s, the success of QED prompted other physicists to try an analogous approach to unifying the weak, the strong, and the gravitational forces. Out of these discoveries came another set of theories that merged the strong and weak forces called quantum chromodynamics, or QCD, and quantum electroweak theory, or simply the electroweak theory, which you’ve already been introduced to.
    If you examine the forces and particles that have been combined in the theories we just covered, you’ll notice that the obvious force missing is that of gravity.
    http://www.infoplease.com/cig/.....ivity.html

    Even the amplituhedron left gravity on the cutting room floor

    A Jewel at the Heart of Quantum Physics – September 17, 2013
    Excerpt: The amplituhedron itself does not describe gravity. But Arkani-Hamed and his collaborators think there might be a related geometric object that does.,,,
    But the new amplituhedron research suggests space-time, and therefore dimensions, may be illusory anyway.,,, Even without unitarity and locality, the amplituhedron formulation of quantum field theory does not yet incorporate gravity. But researchers are working on it.,,,
    https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130917-a-jewel-at-the-heart-of-quantum-physics/

    Moreover, recent tests establishing the speed of light constant to greater levels of accuracy have only undercut present attempts to unify General Relativity and the standard model

    Most precise test of Lorentz symmetry for the photon finds that the speed of light is indeed constant – by Lisa Zyga – September 15, 2015
    Excerpt: These improved bounds could prove very useful for experimentally testing (falsifying) theories that (try to) unify general relativity and the standard model while predicting Lorentz symmetry violations. Some of these theories, for example, include string theory-based models and quantum gravity theories, among others.,,,
    http://phys.org/news/2015-09-p.....stant.html

    Thus since it is the speed of light constant itself that is undercutting the present efforts to unify General Relativity with the standard model, then I hold that my claim that Special Relativity and General Relativity represent two very different qualities of eternity is, indeed, as far as empirical science itself is concerned, very well supported.

    Verse, Quote, & Music:

    John 3:12
    I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

    Horatio:
    O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!
    Hamlet:
    And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
    (Context of Hamlet Quote)
    http://www.enotes.com/shakespe.....th-horatio

    Johnny Cash and Rosanne Cash – September When It Comes – song about life and mortality
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2WilM6ljUg

  53. 53
    groovamos says:

    BA77: The empirical evidence is what it is.

    Oh OK that means BA read the book review to which I linked above, right? Or the book itself, packed with empirical evidence? Because if one is going to understand concepts like eternity as they apply to the mind, the sectarian approach is useless because humanity has been around for hundreds of thousands of years longer than any sectarian viewpoint. And as such the book reviewed is a direct, scientific, non-reductionist probe into processes of mind in the context of radical transformation of personality documented in the book, including experiences of eternity. And the likes of which I have never heard about in the modern church.

    So when BA77 starts going off on stuff he doesn’t understand, like time dilation as a physical link to eternity, I’m sorry that is just made up stuff by him or his internet teachers. Eternity may exist but not in nature. Study W. L. Craig on infinity and see why.

    So BA when you start tossing around the creation/destruction principle you seem inclined to applying it to everyone else and not yourself, as if your own seriously dogmatic attachments couldn’t ever use a dose of creative destruction. Including attachment to ridiculously long posts on every thread with more links than anybody is willing to pay attention to.

    Although I will admit to clicking on a handful now.

  54. 54
    bornagain77 says:

    groovamos, whatever.

    Like I said, agree or disagree with the evidence I presented. I don’t care.

    Personally, I am confident that Special Relativity and General Relativity represent two very different qualities of eternity.

    Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – thought experiment – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6545941/

    Einstein: Einstein’s Miracle Year (Special Relativity Thought Experiment at 55 second mark) – video
    http://www.history.com/topics/.....racle-year

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12

  55. 55
    bornagain77 says:

    of supplemental interest:

    “..the distinction between past, present, and future is only an illusion, however tenacious this illusion may be.”
    – Albert Einstein – March 1955 (of note: he passed away in April of that year)

    Einstein was once asked (by a philosopher):

    “Can physics demonstrate the existence of ‘the now’ in order to make the notion of ‘now’ into a scientifically valid term?”

    Einstein’s answer was categorical, he said:

    “The experience of ‘the now’ cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics.”

    Quote was taken from the last few minutes of this following video or can be read in full context in the article following the video:

    Stanley L. Jaki: “The Mind and Its Now”
    https://vimeo.com/10588094

    The Mind and Its Now – Stanley L. Jaki, July 2008
    Excerpts: There can be no active mind without its sensing its existence in the moment called now.,,,
    Three quarters of a century ago Charles Sherrington, the greatest modern student of the brain, spoke memorably on the mind’s baffling independence of the brain. The mind lives in a self-continued now or rather in the now continued in the self. This life involves the entire brain, some parts of which overlap, others do not.
    ,,,There is no physical parallel to the mind’s ability to extend from its position in the momentary present to its past moments, or in its ability to imagine its future. The mind remains identical with itself while it lives through its momentary nows.
    ,,, the now is immensely richer an experience than any marvelous set of numbers, even if science could give an account of the set of numbers, in terms of energy levels. The now is not a number. It is rather a word, the most decisive of all words. It is through experiencing that word that the mind comes alive and registers all existence around and well beyond.
    ,,, All our moments, all our nows, flow into a personal continuum, of which the supreme form is the NOW which is uncreated, because it simply IS.
    http://www.saintcd.com/science.....imitstart=

    The statement, ‘the now’ cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement’, was an interesting statement for Einstein to make since ‘the now of the mind’ has, from many recent experiments in quantum mechanics, undermined the space-time of Einstein’s General Relativity as to being the absolute frame of reference for reality.

    A Short Survey Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness
    Excerpt: Putting all the lines of evidence together the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this:
    1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality.
    2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality.
    3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality.
    4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality.
    Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect)
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit

    i.e. ‘the now of the mind’, contrary to what Einstein thought possible for experimental physics, and according to advances in quantum mechanics, takes precedence over past events in time. Moreover, due to advances in quantum mechanics, it would now be much more appropriate to phrase Einstein’s answer to the philosopher in this way:

    “It is impossible for the experience of ‘the now of the mind’ to ever be divorced from physical measurement, it will always be a part of physics.”

    Reality doesn’t exist until we measure it, (Delayed Choice) quantum experiment confirms
    Mind = blown. – FIONA MACDONALD – 1 JUN 2015
    Excerpt: “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” lead researcher and physicist Andrew Truscott said in a press release.
    http://www.sciencealert.com/re.....t-confirms

    Of related interest to ‘the now of the mind’ is special relativity and Near Death Experience testimonies (post 46):

    as well:

    ‘If’ a hypothetical observer were to accelerate to the speed of light, time, as we understand it, would come to a complete stop for the hypothetical observer. To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into special relativity.

    Einstein: Einstein’s Miracle Year (Special Relativity Thought Experiment at 55 second mark) – video
    http://www.history.com/topics/.....racle-year

    ,,,Yet, even though light has this ‘eternal’ attribute in regards to our temporal framework of time, for us to hypothetically travel at the speed of light, in this universe, will still only get us to first base as far as quantum entanglement, and/or teleportation, are concerned.

    God, The Universe, and Everything – Special Relativity and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God
    Excerpt: Albert Einstein taught us that time and space are related by light. Imagine that you and I hitch a ride on the Star ship Enterprise, traveling at the speed of light. Now remember, at the speed of light time stops. So if we look out the window while traveling at this speed, we would be aware of the past, the present and the future all at once. This bizarre universe which seems absurd to us is the very universe described by quantum physics.,,,
    The concept that there is something outside the material world becomes even more evident when you consider light. You see light has the ability to behave in a singularly conscious manner. To actually transmit information across the entire universe instantly. Consider this. In 1997 a Geneva researcher created a pair of twin light photons and sent them flying in opposite directions along optical fibers. When one photon hit a mirror it was forced to make a random choice to go one way or the other. Which ever way it went it’s twin photon already seven miles away always instantaneously took the very same option. Instantaneous is the key word here. The reaction of the twin photon was not delayed by the amount of time it takes light to travel seven miles. Other more recent experiments support this finding. In fact, physicists now believe that an entangled twin particle will know what it’s partner is doing and instantaneously mimic it’s actions even if the pair live in separate galaxies billions of light years apart. Since we’ve been told that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, how does one photon on one side of the universe know what the other photon on the other side of the universe is doing? Instantly?
    – Dwight Nelson

    That is to say, although speed of light travel is ‘eternal’, speed of light travel is still not completely instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our temporal perspective.
    Yet, in quantum teleportation of information, the ‘time not passing’, i.e. ‘eternal’, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but is also ‘instantaneously’ achieved in our temporal framework. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of quantum information is instantaneous to both our temporal framework and to the speed of light framework. It is not only instantaneous in just one framework as the speed of light is.
    i.e. Information travel, as shown in entanglement experiments, is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us in this temporal framework.

    Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012
    Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,”
    http://www.quantumlah.org/high.....uences.php

    Thus ‘pure transcendent information’ is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks.
    Moreover, the framework in which this transcendent, eternal, infinite information exists is indeed real and the framework is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can possibly exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned as the source of reality).

    “An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality”
    Akiane Kramarik

  56. 56
    Box says:

    Groovamos,

    Thank you for the link to S.Grof’s work, which is obviously extremely interesting. Do you happen to have personal experience with “holotropic breathing?”

  57. 57
    bornagain77 says:

    Although NDEs in America are known for being, for the most part, extremely pleasant, even ‘heavenly’, it should also be noted that all foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE studies I have looked at have a extreme rarity of encounters with ‘The Being Of Light’ and tend to be very unpleasant NDE’s save for the few pleasant children’s NDEs of those cultures that I’ve seen (It seems there is indeed an ‘age of accountability’).
    The following NDE studies were shocking for what were found in some non-Judeo-Christian NDE’s:

    Near-Death Experiences in Thailand – Todd Murphy:
    Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of ‘going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves.
    http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm

    Near Death Experience Thailand Asia – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g

    Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999:
    Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient.
    http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm

    A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington:
    Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the ‘das-log’s discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here.
    Episode 6: The ‘das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back.
    Episode 7: The ‘das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living.
    http://www.case.edu/affil/tibe.....4&amp

    Though not as horrific as the preceding, the NDEs of other non-Judeo-Christian cultures also tend to be unpleasant to very unpleasant:

    Near-Death Experiences Among Survivors of the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake (Chinese)
    Excerpt: Our subjects reported NDE phemenological items not mentioned, or rarely mentioned in NDE’s reported from other countries: sensations of the world being exterminated or ceasing to exist, a sense of weightlessness, a feeling of being pulled or squeezed, ambivalence about death, a feeling of being a different person, or a different kind of person and unusual scents. The predominant phemenological features in our series were feeling estranged from the body as if it belonged to someone else, unusually vivid thoughts, loss of emotions, unusual bodily sensations, life seeming like a dream, a feeling of dying,,, These are not the same phemenological features most commonly found by researchers in other countries. Greyson (1983) reported the most common phemenological feature of American NDE’s to be a feeling of peace, joy, time stopping, experiencing an unearthly realm of existence, a feeling of cosmic unity, and a out of body experience.
    http://www.newdualism.org/nde-.....-39-48.pdf

    The Japanese find death a depressing experience – From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991)
    Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing ‘tunnels of light’ or having ‘out of body’ experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled ‘dreams’, many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. ‘Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.’ Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. ‘It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.’ Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before.
    http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4

    India Cross-cultural study by Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia Medical School and Dr. Satwant Pasricha of the Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, India
    Excerpt: “Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then, the man pushed me with his hand and said, “You’d better hurry up and go back.” When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realised why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands! When I regained consciousness, I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm.” Mangal still had a mark on his left arm that he claims was a result of the burning. About a quarter of Dr Pasricha’s interviewees reported such marks.
    http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/06pas.htm

    Near-Death Experiences of Hindus Pasricha and Stevenson’s research
    Except: “Two persons caught me and took me with them. I felt tired after walking some distance; they started to drag me. My feet became useless. There was a man sitting up. He looked dreadful and was all black. He was not wearing any clothes. He said in a rage [to the attendants who had brought Vasudev] “I had asked you to bring Vasudev the gardener.,,, In reply to questions about details, Vasudev said that the “black man” had a club and used foul language. Vasudev identified him as Yamraj, the Hindu god of the dead.
    http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html

    Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in a Melanesian Society by Dorothy E. Counts:
    Excerpt: “When you were in your village you claimed to be an important man. But in this little place you have been eaten up by a knife, a dog, and a pig. And now fire will utterly destroy you.” When the loudspeaker had finished, a fire blazed up and destroyed the remains.
    http://anthropology.uwaterloo......Death.html

  58. 58
    bornagain77 says:

    Here is a hellish NDE of an American Muslim:

    Mesiah from I Survived Beyond and Back part 2 – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FehcSO5YNUI

    This is of related interest:

    Ex-Hezbollah Muslim Saw Jesus and Jesus Said Who He Was – Afshin Javid
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-L1KIU7lao

    Muslim near death experience sees Jesus (Isa) becomes Christian Pt 1 – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TC-TLFYNCQ
    Part 2
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F70Ray8Mdn4

    It should also be noted that, although the majority of NDEs reported within Judeo-Christian cultures tend to be very pleasant, even ‘heavenly’, there are some hellish NDE’s reported within Judeo-Christian cultures.

    Dr Maurice Rawlings – NDE – To Hell and Back
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ8TEGMj-jc

    Former hard core atheist Howard Storm’s hellish NDE is a particularly vivid and well known example

    video – Howard Storm continues to share his gripping story of his own near death experience. Today, he picks up just as Jesus was rescuing him from the horrors of Hell and carrying him into the glories of Heaven.
    http://www.daystar.com/ondeman.....5342592001

    “I knew for certain there was no such thing as life after death. Only simple minded people believed in that sort of thing. I didn’t believe in God, Heaven, or Hell, or any other fairy tales. I drifted into darkness.
    Drifting asleep into anihilation.,,(Chapter 2 – The Descent),, I was standing up. I opened my eyes to see why I was standing up. I was between two hospital beds in the hospital room.,,, Everything that was me, my consciousness and my physical being, was standing next to the bed. No, it wasn’t me lying in the bed. It was just a thing that didn’t have any importance to me. It might as well have been a slab of meat in the supermarket”,,,
    Howard Storm – former hard-core atheist – Excerpt from his book, ‘My Descent Into Death’ (Page 12-14)

    The Near Death Experience of Howard Storm: Parts I & II- The Chains We Forge in Life/Rescue – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsyWGPoMiMI

  59. 59
    Andre says:

    We thankfully still have some sane people left here in SA

    http://www.bdlive.co.za/nation.....e-mps-told

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