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Clown Fish, Subjectivism, and the Great Moral Gap

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As we know, subjectivists labor endlessly to convince us that their morality is on a par with the natural law. Clown Fish, for example, insists that, like objectivists, he follows rules and is governed by “oughtness.”

My moral values are very strongly held. They govern many of the things I do. I believe that others OUGHT to comply with my moral values.

He further states that, like objectivists, he believes that the state should also be governed by “oughtness.”

You (kairosfocus) really have to work on your reading comprehension. Your continuing insistence on disagreeing with me about our government by OUGHTness when I have repeatedly stated that I agree with you on our government by OUGHTness suggests that some unhealthy pathology is at work.

This is pure unadulterated sophistry. When the subjectivist claims that he is governed by “oughtness,” he really means that he is governed by *his* ought, not by *the* ought. In other words, he is not governed by oughtness at all because he is the governor of his own oughtness–a conveniently-crafted moral code that just happens to harmonize with his life style.

By contrast, the objectivist, who is governed by *the* ought, must submit to a moral code that binds him from the outside. Since he doesn’t choose that standard, its requirements are not always congenial with his inclinations and often demand a great deal of moral exertion. It requires leaving his emotional comfort zone to bridge the gap between where he is and where he ought to be. But whatever the cost, there is a definitive moral target to be aimed at, which means that moral growth, moral success, or moral failure are all real possibilities.

Objective morality operates in the arena of personal habits. The “ought” is the evaluator and the individual is the thing being evaluated. If there could be such a thing as a mid-term report card from nature, the objectivist’s grades would reflect his moral performance: During that span, he might receive a B+ for persistence, or a D- for courage, or A- for kindness, or an F for patience, and so on. The growth process is uneven. Sometimes, it means gaining ground in one virtue at the expense of losing ground in another. If the moral realist really tries to be good, (harder than it sounds) he will be shocked to find out how bad he is. It will become evident that the gap between the real and the ideal is much wider than was first believed. At that point, his moral failures have introduced him to himself and moral growth can begin.

The subjectivist, on the other hand, is not interested in knowing his true moral condition. That is why he indulges himself with the false consolation that there is really no such thing as a “good” man. Under the circumstances, he can spare himself the task of becoming one. If there are no moral virtues, then there are no moral targets to aim for—no gap to be bridged between the real and the ideal. The subjectivist is already where he needs to be, thank you very much.

His delusional and custom-made morality fits his behavior like a glove and, in his mind, releases him from the obligation of replacing bad habits with good ones, neither of which are real to him. If there is no need for moral improvement, then there is no need for moral exertion. Like the student who grades his own papers, the subjectivist can’t fail; he gets an A every time. Never mind that his perceived excellence is an illusion.

So watch out when a subjectivist claims that he is governed by “oughtness” and wants our government to operate by the same principle. Make no mistake. He doesn’t want the state to be governed by *the* ought, so that everyone, including the ruling class, will be held morally accountable. He wants the state to be the governor of its *own* ought, so that it can arrogate unto itself the power to grant any right, real or imagined, and pass any law, just or unjust, so long as it “feels” right.

Liberalism, subjectivism, and relativism inevitably lead to the loss of real moral standards and the political freedoms that depend on them. Meanwhile, the bullies in waiting wear the mask of false compassion until their moment arrives. It’s a well-established expression, but it bears repeating: Inside every liberal is a totalitarian screaming to get out. If you don’t believe it, just say hello to one of them while they are terrorizing or beating up supporters at a Donald Trump rally. Subjectivists just don’t feel that moral tension between where they are and where they ought to be.

 

Comments
Before personhood appears? What about the scientific litrature are you unsure about? A zygote, fetus, infant, toddler, teenager or adult is the same thing, a person, but with varying degrees of development. And if we are to butcher fetuses why not butcher them all? What makes you different to Hitler?Andre
June 6, 2016
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StephenB,
You merely restated your claim that human beings do not deserve to live until they are old enough to think. I am asking you to explain why you believe that an unthinking, unborn child does not deserve to live.
I don’t consider it murder before the qualities of personhood appear.
When to start removing organs is a practical medical consideration. The morality depends on the reason for the act. In other words, Why is it being done? Organ donation = I give this organ so that another may live. Abortion: = I kill this unborn child because it is in my way. Even a moral relativist should be able to understand the difference.
Umm, before all that, it has to be decided if the person is actually dead. That’s the only thing I’m asking about. Why is someone considered dead merely because the brain has died?goodusername
June 6, 2016
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Clown fish from a medical journal....
Miscarriage Cause: Chromosomal Abnormalities Why it Leads to Miscarriage “Mismatched chromosomes account for at least 60 percent of miscarriages,” says Bryan Cowan, MD, chair of the department of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Mississippi Medical Center in Jackson, and a spokesperson for the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. Chromosomes are the tiny structures in each cell that carry our genes; we each have 23 pairs of them, one set from our mother and one set from our father. Sometimes, when the egg and sperm meet, one or the other is faulty and then the chromosomes can’t line up properly. In that case, the resulting embryo has a chromosomal abnormality and the pregnancy usually results in a miscarriage. Couples who experience two or more miscarriages in a row sometimes learn, through medical testing, that they have chromosomal anomalies that don’t affect them, but do prevent a pregnancy from taking hold. Miscarriage Cause: Uterine Abnormalities and Incompetent Cervixes Why it Leads to Miscarriage If you have a uterus that is “abnormally” shaped or divided--called uterine septum--miscarriage occurs because the embryo either can’t implant or once it does implant, can’t get the nourishment it needs to survive. “Uterine anomalies account for about 10 percent of miscarriages,” says Dr. Cowan. A weakened or incompetent cervix is another problem that can lead to miscarriage, because toward the end of the first trimester the fetus has grown large enough that the cervix starts to bulge. If the cervix is weakened, it can’t hold the fetus in. Miscarriage Cause: Immunologic Disorders Why it Leads to Miscarriage “When you consider that a woman’s body views sperm as a foreign object, it’s a wonder that pregnancy happens at all,” says Dr. Scher. “But most of the time, a fertilized egg sends a message to the mother that says ‘don’t treat me like a germ,’ and pregnancy proceeds without incident.” In some cases, though, the embryo isn’t accepted by the woman’s body. “Antiphospholipid antibodies—antibodies that attack one’s own tissue, including embryos—account for many miscarriages that physicians used to think were unexplainable,” Dr. Scher says.
So? What's your beef with God about this? Seems to me there is some minimum requirements for a healthy baby and there are some checks and balances in place. Can you do any better?Andre
June 6, 2016
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SB:You did not address the question. Why should an undeveloped child not be permitted to live?
I don’t know how I can address it any better or clearer than I already have.
You merely restated your claim that human beings do not deserve to live until they are old enough to think. I am asking you to explain why you believe that an unthinking, unborn child does not deserve to live.
Because it’s a human being. I thought that mattered to you? It’s not a chicken.
It isn't the death that makes it moral or immoral, it is the reason for the death and why it is determined to be necessary. SB: The issue is not when death occurs. The issue is why death occurs.
I disagree. The issue of when death occurs is rather important when deciding when to start removing organs.
When to start removing organs is a practical medical consideration. The morality depends on the reason for the act. In other words, Why is it being done? Organ donation = I give this organ so that another may live. Abortion: = I kill this unborn child because it is in my way. Even a moral relativist should be able to understand the difference.StephenB
June 6, 2016
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Andre: "Human beings from the moment of conception until our last breath is intrinsically valuable, it is the first self evident objective moral truth, and no right to life means no rights at all." If this is actually a God dictated self-evident objective moral value how do you explain the fact that between ten and thirty percent of pregnancies end in miscarriages? If all human life is self-evidently, objectively of intrinsic value in God's eye, why does he allow so many to die before birth?clown fish
June 6, 2016
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Andre,
Well that depends, first on whether it was the brain dead person’s will to donate. I am a donor and when I die they can use whatever of my body they need, why? Because I willed it.
Yes, doctors remove organs from someone who is “brain dead” because the person is, in fact, considered dead. The question is why is the person considered dead? If you are trying to take someone “to task,” it’s generally a good idea to at least give some effort to follow the conversation.goodusername
June 6, 2016
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goodusername
Yes, what about it? Do you think it applies to removing the organs from a living human merely because the brain has died? Why or why not?
Well that depends, first on whether it was the brain dead person's will to donate. I am a donor and when I die they can use whatever of my body they need, why? Because I willed it.Andre
June 6, 2016
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StephenB,
You did not address the question. Why should an undeveloped child not be permitted to live?
I don’t know how I can address it any better or clearer than I already have.
No problem. Why should it be?
Because it’s a human being. I thought that mattered to you? It's not a chicken.
No
Why?
The issue is not when death occurs. The issue is why death occurs.
I disagree. The issue of when death occurs is rather important when deciding when to start removing organs. But the issue is more about the definition of death. The only thing that matters when defining death is the brain. Why? IMO, It’s strange how the brain is viewed as so completely irrelevant as to the start of personhood, and so relevant (actually, the ONLY thing relevant) as the mark of the end of personhood (and not only that, but as the mark of death).
It is an absolutely essential point. Moral relativists kill unborn children; moral absolutists do not.
I can’t tell if you’re joking or if you need to get out more. I’ve known many moral relativists who are against all abortions and many moral absolutists who are pro-choice. Andre,
Ever heard of the Hippocratic oath?
Yes, what about it? Do you think it applies to removing the organs from a living human merely because the brain has died? Why or why not?goodusername
June 6, 2016
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goodusername
Well, it certainly is a living human being. It’s not a chicken. It is alive and a member of the human species.
Right you are.
But I would say that it hasn’t yet developed the qualities associated with personhood – there are no thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc.
You did not address the question. Why should an undeveloped child not be permitted to live?
How do you feel about organ transplants? What do you think about the way they remove the beating heart and other organs from a living person to give them to other people?
No problem. Why should it be?
Is that murder?
No.
Why do we care so much about the brain? Why is that the be-all and end-all for determination of “death”? Because the death of the brain marks the end of the things we actually care about – the stuff that makes “me” me.
The issue is not when death occurs. The issue is why death occurs.
Note that this is all beside the point on the issue of moral relativity vs moral objectiveness and the origin of morality.
It is an absolutely essential point. Moral relativists kill unborn children; moral absolutists do not.StephenB
June 6, 2016
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goodusername Ever heard of the Hippocratic oath? Hippocratic Oath: Classical Version I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant: To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art—if they desire to learn it—without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else. I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice. I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work. Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves. What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about. If I fulfill this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot. Hippocratic Oath, Modern Version I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant: I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow. I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism. I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug. I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery. I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God. I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick. I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure. I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm. If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help. It worked for thousand of years until liberals corrupted it.Andre
June 6, 2016
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StephenB @ 4,
Very few people understand the Is/ought argument, which is why I seldom discuss it. When the idea was first introduced, it meant, correctly, that you cannot establish morality (ought) from factual events or observed behaviors (is). That is correct.
Here are a few of my thoughts: I think we tend to get a little sloppy when talking about the “is/ought” problem. For example, it is sometimes incorrectly said that you cannot derive an ought from an is. But is that accurate? Isn’t God, after all, an is? According to an on-line source:
In Ex. 3:13-14, Moses asks God, “Whom should I say has sent me?” and God responds by saying, “I AM that I AM… You must say this to the Israelites, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” However, it could be awkward for Moses to go to the Israelites and Pharaoh and say, “I am has sent me.” So, in Ex. 3:15 God revises this phrase and changes it to the third person by saying, “Tell them that ‘He is’ has sent you.” The word “He is” comes from the Hebrew root word haya, which means, “to be.” It is the third person form of this word, “He is,” that becomes the name Yahweh.
From what I know and have read and studied this appears to be accurate. Therefore, when we ground moral values and obligations in Yahweh we are in fact grounding them in an “is”—His existence. However, God is personal vs. impersonal. The question/problem then is how can we ground morality in the impersonal? (As is what the naturalist believes.) If our existence is the result of mindless/impersonal evolution, what is the ground of moral values and obligations? That’s the problem which confronts the naturalist/ materialist, grounding morality in the impersonal, because that is ultimately all that there really is. The really question then is, is the impersonal an impersonal ground of being (space/time, matter/energy) sufficient to ground the “ought” of human morality, ethics and universal human rights? Clearly it is not. But, on the other hand, if an eternally existing personal being (God) exists we do have a sufficient grounding for moral obligations and universal human rights. The problem is that the progressive secular left wants to have it both ways. On the one hand, they reject God as the basis of moral obligations and human rights, but on the other, they want to coopt the idea of universal human rights. Thus over the last 50-60 years or so we see the creation of so called rights-- “abortion rights,” “gay rights.” “animal rights” etc.—but these are arbitrary man-made rights which were invented whole cloth by people with a subversive ideological agenda. Can man make up absolute rights? On what basis? Am I morally obligated to recognize or respect these man-made rights? Should they become, as they have, the basis of law?john_a_designer
June 6, 2016
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Andre,
Time to take you to task… a person freely donating their organs when they are brain dead is not an issue, it was a freely made choice.
So if you walk into a hospital and say "I'd like to donate my organs right now," do you think they'd take them (and I don't mean just a kidney)?goodusername
June 6, 2016
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goodusername Time to take you to task... a person freely donating their organs when they are brain dead is not an issue, it was a freely made choice. Scientific evidence says a fetus is a human, are you OK with the butchering of humans?Andre
June 6, 2016
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StephenB,
I didn’t ask you about embryology, which is a scientific issue,
The study of embryology is a necessary part of the subject. It was once commonly believed that abortion was ok prior to the “quickening”. What changed? It wasn’t morality, it was knowledge of embryonic development.
I asked you about abortion, which is moral issue.
It’s not just a moral issue. Actually, it might be the least important part of the issue. The disagreement between those that are pro-choice and pro-life isn’t really a disagreement on morality. The people from both sides have, for the most part, the same moral code. It’s disagreements on embryology, as well as philosophical questions about personhood.
Why do you feel that way? Why is it not murder before that? It is a living human being isn’t it? (Recall the scientific evidence that Andre alluded to).
Well, it certainly is a living human being. It’s not a chicken. It is alive and a member of the human species. But I would say that it hasn’t yet developed the qualities associated with personhood – there are no thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc. How do you feel about organ transplants? What do you think about the way they remove the beating heart and other organs from a living person to give them to other people? Is that murder? Or do you consider the living human being that they take the organs from not a person, just because the brain has died? Interesting how we say that “death” has occurred when the heart still beating, the lungs are still breathing, its cells still have 24 pairs of chromosomes and are still dividing, and the organs (aside from the brain) are still functioning. Why do we care so much about the brain? Why is that the be-all and end-all for determination of “death”? Because the death of the brain marks the end of the things we actually care about – the stuff that makes “me” me. Note that this is all beside the point on the issue of moral relativity vs moral objectiveness and the origin of morality. Even if I woke up tomorrow believing that morality is objective, it’s unrelated to my beliefs regarding the development and start of personhood. Although I doubt it, maybe future generations will abhor the way we harvest organs from still-living human beings who merely had the misfortune of having their brains die. If that happens, it won’t be because of a change in morality, but a philosophical change in the way they determine personhood.goodusername
June 6, 2016
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A moral subjectivist argued that empathy is the basis of our moral evolution. I recently heard an audio clip of Hillary Clinton making a joke and laughing on national television about the brutal murder of Libya’s Muammar Gaddafi. So much for empathy. Also heard a clip of George Bush's Secretary of State Madeleine Albright calmly asserting that U.S. policy objectives were worth the killing of 500,000 Iraqi children (due to Bush's sanctions). Again, so much for empathy. As I have said before. At worst, empathy is non-existent. At best, it is selective.Truth Will Set You Free
June 6, 2016
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SB: My question was not about just anyone, it was about you. What is your decision? (Based on your criteria, of course). Is abortion moral or immoral?
None of the criteria I’ve mentioned (feelings) for the origin of morality has any bearing on embryology
I didn't ask you about embryology, which is a scientific issue, I asked you about abortion, which is moral issue. You will recall that, according to your standard, morality can be determined by feelings.
but I personally feel that an abortion is murder once personhood begins appearing (intelligence, feelings, emotions, etc).
Why do you feel that way? Why is it not murder before that? It is a living human being isn't it? (Recall the scientific evidence that Andre alluded to).StephenB
June 6, 2016
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goodusername from the paper again;
It is therefore incorrect to claim, as Sandel and others do, that the transition from sperm and oocyte to zygote, multicelled embryo, fetus and so on is all on a continuum. On the contrary, after the sperm and the oocyte cease to be and their constituents contribute to the formation of a new organism, what exists is a distinct whole, with its own internal organizing principle. In other words, what exists is a distinct centre of actions and reactions, with a determinately distinct developmental trajectory. Whether a new human organism exists is a question to which the answer must be either yes or no—there is no in between. If a human organism exists, then he or she exists as a whole and not just partly, and this is true for all the times that he or she exists. Embryos are whole human beings, at the early stage of their maturation. The term ‘embryo', similar to the terms ‘infant' and ‘adolescent', refers to a determinate and enduring organism at a particular stage of development. Just as you and I once were infants, so too you and I once were embryos. Each of us came into being as an embryo, and developed by an internally directed and gapless process from the embryonic into and through the fetal, infant, child and adolescent stages, and into adulthood with our determinateness and unity fully intact.
Andre
June 6, 2016
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goodusername
But IMHO there’s more than a difference in degree between having a fully functional brain and having no neurons whatsoever.
What exists in the early stages of development is not a mere bundle of homogeneous cells. Scientific evidence shows that already at the two-cell stage, and even more so at the four-cell stage and thereafter, there is a difference in the internal structure of the embryonic cells; although they have the same DNA, each has a distinct pattern of gene expression (Memili & First, 2000; Thompson et al, 1998; Zernika-Goetz, 2003; Zimmerman & Schultz, 1994; Santo & Dean, 2004).Andre
June 5, 2016
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Goodusername from the paper
Again, the human embryo, from fertilization forward, develops in a single direction by an internally directed process: the developmental trajectory of this entity is determined from within, not by extrinsic factors, and always toward the same mature state, from the earliest stage of embryonic development onward. This means that the embryo has the same nature—it is the same kind of entity, a whole human organism—from fertilization forward; there is only a difference in degree of maturation between any of the stages in the development of the living being.
Andre
June 5, 2016
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goodusername
There’s only a difference in degree, not kind, between a single-celled zygote and a sentient, thinking, feeling, emotional fully grown adult? Ok, if you say so.
I'm not saying so, science is saying so and I happen to agree with science. You see that single cell has the all the information contained in it already to become the person it was meant to be.Andre
June 5, 2016
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goodusername I urge you to read the paper in full, study it understand it. Human beings from the moment of conception until our last breath is intrinsically valuable, it is the first self evident objective moral truth, and no right to life means no rights at all. This is the most important thing you can ever wrap your mind around. when you understand this many other things will fall in place.Andre
June 5, 2016
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Andre,
And if this is based on your feelings you would be wrong, scientifically the only difference is in degree of maturation, not in kind, between any of the stages from embryo, to fetus, infant and so on.
There's only a difference in degree, not kind, between a single-celled zygote and a sentient, thinking, feeling, emotional fully grown adult? Ok, if you say so. But IMHO there's more than a difference in degree between having a fully functional brain and having no neurons whatsoever. But the period at which the qualities of intelligence, feelings, etc begin is unfortunately fuzzy. However, there's nothing about objective morality vs subjective morality that helps answer such questions.goodusername
June 5, 2016
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goodusername
None of the criteria I’ve mentioned for the origin of morality has any bearing on embryology, but I personally feel that an abortion is murder once personhood begins appearing (intelligence, feelings, emotions, etc).
And if this is based on your feelings you would be wrong, scientifically the only difference is in degree of maturation, not in kind, between any of the stages from embryo, to fetus, infant and so on. Scientific literature might help? You are a champion of science right? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2672893/Andre
June 5, 2016
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StephenB,
My question was not about just anyone, it was about you. What is your decision? (Based on your criteria, of course). Is abortion moral or immoral?
None of the criteria I've mentioned for the origin of morality has any bearing on embryology, but I personally feel that an abortion is murder once personhood begins appearing (intelligence, feelings, emotions, etc).
Objective morality provides only on answer and one criteria.
That's utterly contrary to everything I've seen. Andre,
There is an old saying; what is good for the goose is good for the gander…..
kgoodusername
June 5, 2016
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Goodusername There is an old saying; what is good for the goose is good for the gander.....Andre
June 5, 2016
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StephenB, How would you decide the morality of abortion based on the criteria that you just provided?
Well, at the point that one believes it would be murder, it would also be immoral.
My question was not about just anyone, it was about you. What is your decision? (Based on your criteria, of course). Is abortion moral or immoral?
Why would it be any different than how you decide the morality of abortion?
Because subjective morality provides many different answers and many different criteria. Objective morality provides only on answer and one criteria.goodusername
June 5, 2016
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goodusername
I believe morality is the result of certain desires (the desire to live, etc) and empathy. That is why it is widely viewed as immoral to kill, rob, etc.
How would you decide the morality of abortion based on the criteria that you just provided?StephenB
June 5, 2016
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StephenB,
You have not explained why you think that murderers and robbers are immoral. You have not explained why society should be made to work.
I believe morality is the result of certain desires (the desire to live, etc) and empathy. That is why it is widely viewed as immoral to kill, rob, etc. I can't imagine a scenario where a group of sentient, intelligent, emotional beings, which have generally similar desires (the desire to live, to not be robbed, to not be beaten, etc), and which have empathy (and therefore its painful seeing others murdered, robbed, or beaten) would not develop a system of morality. I'm not sure what it means to say that "society should be made to work," but people, in general, want society to work.goodusername
June 5, 2016
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Truth Will Set You Free @24, Thank you.StephenB
June 5, 2016
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goodusername
So the rest of us view the murderer, robber, etc as immoral – not to mention criminal – and we put them in prison. That’s how society works.
You have not explained why you think that murderers and robbers are immoral. You have not explained why society should be made to work.StephenB
June 5, 2016
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