Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Co-option, Berra’s Blunder, and Speculation Presented as Fact

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In Bill Dembski’s thread, No Major Conceptual Leaps, I posted a comment about the evidential, logical, and probabilistic vacuity of the Darwinian co-option hypothesis. (I use the word hypothesis with reservation. A hypothesis in a domain such as this should at least be based on a minimal, mathematical probabilistic analysis.)

In response to my comment, another commenter offered this as a refutation.

This text from Deborah A. McLennan, of Evo Edu Outreach, is utterly embarrassing for her cause, because it makes the case for design, just as Tim Berra did with his infamous blunder.

Deborah writes:

The co-option of traits to serve new functions is not a difficult concept to understand. In fact, we ourselves do it all the time, which is why we speak about “new wine in old bottles” or “rebranding” for the repackaging of ideas, and more recently in keeping with the new management-speak, “repurposing”. We are forever finding new functions for old devices, using an old boot as a planter, a fishing rod to fly a kite, a magnifying glass to start a fire, a shell as currency, a berry or a root to dye cloth. The only difference between human and evolutionary co-option is that we purposefully change an object’s function, while evolution simply takes advantage of an opportunity with no direction, purpose, or forethought.

The only verifiable examples of co-option she presents involve agency. How about just one verifiable example of co-option that does not rely on agency? In addition, note the final sentence, which is pure speculation based on an assumed premise, but presented as fact. This is not how science works.

Berra’s Blunder:

If you compare a 1953 and a 1954 Corvette, side by side, then a 1954 and a 1955 model, and so on, the descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious. This is what paleontologists do with fossils, and the evidence is so solid and comprehensive that it cannot be denied by reasonable people…

The point is that the Corvette evolved through a selection process acting on variations that resulted in a series of transitional forms and an endpoint rather distinct from the starting point. A similar process shapes the evolution of organisms.

Tim Berra, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism, 1990, pg 117-119

This is Phillip Johnson’s observation:

Of course, every one of those Corvettes was designed by engineers. The Corvette sequence — like the sequence of Beethoven’s symphonies to the opinions of the United States Supreme Court — does not illustrate naturalistic evolution at all. It illustrates how intelligent designers will typically achieve their purposes by adding variations to a basic design plan. Above all, such sequences have no tendency whatever to support the claim that there is no need for a creator, since blind natural forces can do the creating. On the contrary, they show that what biologists present as proof of “evolution” or “common ancestry” is just as likely to be evidence of common design.

Phillip Johnson, Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds, 1997, pg 63.

It is illuminating that Darwinists, in many attempts to defend their blind-purposeless-undirected-chance-and-necessity hypothesis, draw on analogies from design and agency while trying to explain away agency and design.

It seems to me that this exercise should result in at least a modicum of cognitive dissonance.

Comments
Greetings again to Mr. Kellogg, Well, I'm not sure how to respond. You asked for context. I provided it by means of the title and refering readers to the very citation you gave. Your comment about added emphasis is spurious as my added emphasis had nothing to do with providing context, but the issue at hand. I chose to emphasize those words and sections to call readers' attention to the blunder which in my opinion was Mr. Berra's use of so much evolution-baggage-laiden terminology in the illustration and of course the term, process. Mr. Kellogg, what is your interpretation of Mr. Berra's use of process?Tim
March 30, 2009
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Testing to see if my comments are still being placed in the moderation queue, plus a reply to earlier comments by Clive Hayden and gpuccio. Clive and gpuccio, Both of you seem to be missing my point, so allow me to restate the argument more explicitly: 1. Evolutionary theory predicts that species are formed by descent with modification from common ancestors. This produces a branching pattern of descent — an evolutionary tree. 2. Evolutionary theory predicts that intergenerational genetic change is gradual. It predicts, for example, that you won’t see thirteen coordinated mutations arising in a single generation to produce a novel trait. The odds are just too steep. (Note that this says nothing about the pace of evolution over longer timescales, which is why there is no conflict between gradualism and the theory of punctuated equilibrium or the multi-million year Cambrian “explosion”). 3. Because of #1 and #2, it is possible to reconstruct phylogenetic trees based on morphological and molecular evidence, subject to principles of parsimony and maximum likelihood. 4. Because of #1 and #2, evolutionary theory predicts that phylogenetic trees reconstructed on the basis of multiple independent traits and molecules will be consistent. 5. In fact, these methods have produced stunning results. As Douglas Theobald explains in his 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: …the standard phylogenetic tree is known to 38 decimal places, which is a much greater precision than that of even the most well-determined physical constants. For comparison, the charge of the electron is known to only seven decimal places, the Planck constant is known to only eight decimal places, the mass of the neutron, proton, and electron are all known to only nine decimal places, and the universal gravitational constant has been determined to only three decimal places. 6. Therefore, we conclude that the predictions of evolutionary theory — which does not invoke a designer — are wildly successful. 7. Can the hypothesis of a designer be reconciled with these results? Yes — because literally any set of observations can be explained by invoking a designer. Why are things the way they are? Because the designer made them that way. 8. This, obviously, is no longer science. It’s faith. Starting with the assumption of a designer and then interpreting the evidence to fit that assumption is not “following the evidence where it leads” — it’s leading the evidence where you want the conclusion to follow. 9. Science, when practiced correctly, asks for the best, most economical explanation of the observational data. It does not demand that the data be reinterpreted to fit a lesser, uneconomical explanation. 10. The designer hypothesis does not predict common descent. It does not predict gradualism. It does not predict the congruence of phylogenetic trees reconstructed on the basis of distinct sets of independent characters and molecules. These are possible under the designer hypothesis, but they are not predicted by it. 11. They are, however, predicted by evolutionary theory. 12. There are literally millions of design schemes that do not produce the appearance of common descent, gradual change, and consistent phylogenies. 13. Of the millions of possible design schemes, only a minuscule fraction would produce the appearance of these things. 14. Given these facts, which of these explanations is more economical (think Occam’s Razor) and fits the data best? A) There is a designer, and he happened to choose one method of design out of millions that happens to create the appearance that we would expect if he weren’t there at all. (Note that I have said nothing about the designer’s motives, abilities or constraints). B) There is no designer. 15. If you choose (A), then you are choosing to believe in a designer despite the evidence, not because of it. That’s not science. It’s faith.skeech plus
March 30, 2009
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David Kellog:
I would say that Berra’s example does illustrate common ancestry. What’s the blunder if it illustrates what he claimed it does?
Varying models of Corvettes do not illustrate common ancestry, as no car has ever had an ancestor except in the figurative sense. There's no analogy between living things producing offspring over multiple generations and someone repeatedly producing new objects from raw materials.ScottAndrews
March 30, 2009
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Tim [42], game not over, no. By "context" I didn't mean "the title of the book" (we all knew that already) or "repeat the passage with added emphasis." We all know he's making the case for evolution in the book. But what is the context of the quoted discussion?David Kellogg
March 30, 2009
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H'mm:
The point is that the Corvette evolved through a[N INTELLIGENTLY DRIVEN] selection process acting on variations that resulted in a series of transitional forms and an endpoint rather distinct from the starting point. A similar process shapes the evolution of organisms.” (
$0.02 GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 30, 2009
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Greetings Mr. Kellogg, I'd like to take a stab at answering your questions: "Do you [Gil?] know what precisely Berra was trying to illustrate in that passage?" I do not know what he was trying to illustrate, but I do know what he illustrated. He was illustrating that descent with modification should be obvious because we see it in the changing designs of automobiles. He was also illustrating that evolution should be obvious because of that same automobile example. The first illustration is explicit; the second is implicit, more on that later when I answer your question about the “blunder”. “Does anybody have the context?” Yes, I do. Mr. Berra's book title offers a great starting point for context as does the blurb that you cited. "Is he saying that Corvettes evolved naturalistically, or is the context about evidence for common descent?" Here, I believe you have posited a false dilemma. None of us thinks Corvettes evolved naturalistically, but because of that are we to agree that Berra is writing about common descent? Not at all. One other (of many possible) option is that Berra is suggesting that the evolutionary process (for living things) that is evidenced, however unconvincingly from some points of view, by the fossil record is supported by the change in automobiles designs even though automobile design is a different process altogether. "I would say that Berra’s example does illustrate common ancestry. What’s the blunder if it illustrates what he claimed it does?" Although common ancestry is certainly in the mix, he is also writing about evolution and by implication natural selection and random mutation. Here is Berra: “The point is that the Corvette evolved through a selection process acting on variations that resulted in a series of transitional forms and an endpoint rather distinct from the starting point. A similar process shapes the evolution of organisms.” (my italics) Now, I think we can all agree that common ancestry is not a process, but an artifact. In the context of a pro-evolution book, and in a section using the fossil record (of all things) for support, it is when Mr. Berra jumps over to “process” that he blunders. Mr. Johnson rightly enjoins the argument here. How are these processes similar/dissimilar? That is the question! It is exactly at this point that Mr. Johnson notes that the process in automobile development is not naturalistic, but design. If I may say so, game over.Tim
March 30, 2009
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gpuccio [39]: Thank you for your detailed and helpful response. I find your openness, honesty and civility delightful, and this post of yours is exemplary in those respects. This encourages me to ask if you will provide some further assistance to my understanding.
In brief, I wanted to say that, while agreeing that we must do our best to deepen our analysis of the topics we discuss, still your point seems a little too formal: my comment about the paper in question wanted only (and still wants) to point out that in the paper in wuestion there were no explicit arguments in support of cooption, but only just-so stories (please remember that the paper had been given here as evidence in favour of the concept). So, when I said that “there were no specific references in the paper to support the affirmations I quoted” I was not using references in the technical sense of literature quotations, but rather in the sense of “discussion” (I apologize for that, I am not an english speaking contributor, and sometimes I miss possible shadows of meaning when I write in a hurry).
No need to apologize, Dear Fellow. Your English is excellent for a speaker of a different language, and I now understand why we were miscommunicating on the issue of references.
So, I maintain that the paper in question did not contribute with any evidence to our understanding of cooption, and even if it was only a review, a good review should have given at least some glimpse of the arguments, and not only of conclusions which are given as established (”Phylogenetic and functional analyses indicated that ? crystallins originated following two duplication events”). And if the review was aimed to the general public, that is even less correct, because the general public will probably accept anything it says as established knowledge, without checking the literature support.
When I used the term "general" for the McLennan paper, I assumed that you would have surmised from the name of the journal in which it was published, Evolution and Education Outreach, that its intended audience was not the general public, but teachers at the secondary and baccalaureate levels. The distinction I was making was between the intended audience of such a review and the intended scholarly and specialist audience of the True and Carroll review. In any case, how would you have dealt with the shortcomings you perceive in the McLennan review? Please help me understand what kinds of arguments McLennan should have given by providing an example of what you consider to be a more correct approach. (The statement that you quoted: "Phylogenetic and functional analyses indicated that ? [alpha] crystallins originated following two duplication events." is, incidentally, perfectly accurate.)
The pint is more general than it may seem. We in ID do disagree on many assumptions which are usually considered established truth in evolutionary literature. In particular, we do disagree on the interpretations of many common observations made in biology, and on the causal inferences usually made about them. Just to give an example, I do disagree that the simple observation of homology between two proteins, even if statistically significant, is any proof of causal derivation of one from the other, in the absence of a credible causal pathway. Homology is present at various levels, at various degrees, and can mean various things; moreover, it should always be interpreted in reference to how much we know (or do not know) of the function.
I thought you understood that there is no "established truth" in science. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you wrote that very thing on another thread. All scientific inferences are hypotheses, are they not? So, given the observation of sequence similarity between two genes, how would you go about disproving that they both derived from a common ancestor? Or, alternatively, how would you construct a "credible causal pathway" leading to the opposite conclusion? Again, an example of your work in either case would be most helpful and appreciated.
For instance, the discussion I quoted from the discussed paper, as it is in that paper, and probably even with the supporting arguments in the original paper I have not read, could be acceptable as a very speculative theory about the “natural history” of the appearance of a protein, but it is not in any way an established causal pathway of it. The same generic events summed up there could well be the description of a designed pathway, while an implicit assumption is usually made in evolutionary literature that any description of a possible formal pathway is proof of its causal consistency and that the causal mechanisms implied can only be the officially recognized ones, that is RV and NS.
Excellent. You have highlighted the competition between evolutionary theory and design theory with concise eloquence. Therefore, I ask you now to make the distinction clear by describing the alternative causal mechanisms established or envisioned by design theory. And it would be especially helpful if you would stipulate how one would go about deciding which explanation is the better one.
That is what we are discussing here: we are not discussing if cooption is something which can generically happen, but rather if cooption is a credible causal mechanism which can help explain biological information. The difference between “just so stories” and science is exactly that: to pass from a just so story to a credible natural history you need to give evidence that not only things could have happened that way, but that they probably happened that way; and to pass from a likely natural history to a credible casual explanations you have to give evidence that they could and did happen that way for the reasons you imagine (in other ways, that your causal model is consistent and empirically credible).
I am pleased to agree that it is a goal of science to provide credible causal explanations. Therefore, I ask you to present the alternative credible causal explanation of the origin of alpha crystallins based on design theory or any alternative theory you may prefer. (If my estimation of your character is correct, I am confident that you would not require evolutionary theory to meet a standard that your own theory does not meet.)Adel DiBagno
March 30, 2009
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DLH, David L Hagen, in message #26 I noted that the paper by Stephen C. Meyers - "Intelligent Design: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Biological Categories" 2007, fails to mention my paper - "Ontogeny, Phylogeny and the Origin of Biological Information" Rivista di Biologia 93: 513-524, 2000. I mention this just to establish priority.JohnADavison
March 30, 2009
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Adel: I had answered your #38, but my post too has disappeared. I had not saved it, so I cannot just paste it again. In brief, I wanted to say that, while agreeing that we must do our best to deepen our analysis of the topics we discuss, still your point seems a little too formal: my comment about the paper in question wanted only (and still wants) to point out that in the paper in wuestion there were no explicit arguments in support of cooption, but only just-so stories (please remember that the paper had been given here as evidence in favour of the concept). So, when I said that "there were no specific references in the paper to support the affirmations I quoted" I was not using references in the technical sense of literature quotations, but rather in the sense of "discussion" (I apologize for that, I am not an english speaking contributor, and sometimes I miss possible shadows of meaning when I write in a hurry). So, I maintain that the paper in question did not contribute with any evidence to our understanding of cooption, and even if it was only a review, a good review should have given at least some glimpse of the arguments, and not only of conclusions which are given as established ("Phylogenetic and functional analyses indicated that ? crystallins originated following two duplication events"). And if the review was aimed to the general public, that is even less correct, because the general public will probably accept anything it says as established knowledge, without checking the literature support. The pint is more general than it may seem. We in ID do disagree on many assumptions which are usually considered established truth in evolutionary literature. In particular, we do disagree on the interpretations of many common observations made in biology, and on the causal inferences usually made about them. Just to give an example, I do disagree that the simple observation of homology between two proteins, even if statistically significant, is any proof of causal derivation of one from the other, in the absence of a credible causal pathway. Homology is present at various levels, at various degrees, and can mean various things; moreover, it should always be interpreted in reference to how much we know (or do not know) of the function. For instance, the discussion I quoted from the discussed paper, as it is in that paper, and probably even with the supporting arguments in the original paper I have not read, could be acceptable as a very speculative theory about the "natural history" of the appearance of a protein, but it is not in any way an established causal pathway of it. The same generic events summed up there could well be the description of a designed pathway, while an implicit assumption is usually made in evolutionary literature that any description of a possible formal pathway is proof of its causal consistency and that the causal mechanisms implied can only be the officially recognized ones, that is RV and NS. That is what we are discussing here: we are not discussing if cooption is something which can generically happen, but rather if cooption is a credible causal mechanism which can help explain biological information. The difference between "just so stories" and science is exactly that: to pass from a just so story to a credible natural history you need to give evidence that not only things could have happened that way, but that they probably happened that way; and to pass from a likely natural history to a credible casual explanations you have to give evidence that they could and did happen that way for the reasons you imagine (in other ways, that your causal model is consistent and empirically credible).gpuccio
March 29, 2009
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One more time. gpuccio [23]:
thank you for the references, I will look at them. Anyway, I have many doubts that the “just so stories” in that paper will be solved. we will see. In the meantime, there were no specific references in the paper to support the affirmations I quoted. But let’s postpone the discussion to later, when I have read your references (if I can find them in the internet).
You say this after I pointed out that the first sentence in the paragraph from which you quoted cited True and Carroll (2002). I didn’t mention it, but there is another supporting reference in that paragraph: Graw (1997). So your statement that there were no specific references in the paper is incorrect. Both of these references can be found on the Internet, but each will cost you about $20/15 Euros for online access. gpuccio [25]
I would have like to comment the paper by True and Carroll in detail, but unfortunately I have no access to it.
I sympathize with your desire for rapid (and free) access to supporting documents. My original point was that due diligence for a critic should (depending on sincerity) involve some effort at exploring a topic beyond ridiculing (and misrepresenting) a quotation from a general review. Do you concede that point collegially?Adel DiBagno
March 29, 2009
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Clive Hayden [101 on another thread]:
03/29/2009 3:06 pm madsen, I personally have not deleted any comments at all except from David Kellog asking to be taken out of moderation. We switched UD to a new server, so that may explain these strange occurrences.
Ah, maybe I've been another victim of server exchange. I'll try again later.Adel DiBagno
March 29, 2009
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This is strange. At 7:50 AM today, I posted a comment and it appeared as number 35 in this thread. It has now, at 3:30 PM, disappeared. Moderators, what is going on?Adel DiBagno
March 29, 2009
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kairosfocus, no, the descent is not just in the minds of designer but in the alterations of function. You have misunderstood the point of Berra's example just as Johnson did.David Kellogg
March 29, 2009
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On Berra's Blunder: Clearly, there is a need to realise that the only descent involved with the Corvette was in the minds of designers [in the various depts of GM over the years from the 1950's on], and that the only modifications were in the minds of designers. Common design, not reproductive descent with modifications driven by spontaneous random variation and environmental natural selection. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 29, 2009
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skeech, "ID proponents like to talk about “following the evidence where it leads,” so let’s do that now. There are two possibilities: 1. There is a designer, but he chose to design in a way that makes it appear as if he’s not there. 2. There is no designer. Note that in both cases the evidence points to the absence of a designer. If you accept #1, you’re doing so in spite of the evidence, not because of it. In other words, to “follow the evidence wherever it leads” is to conclude that there is no designer. To insist that there is a designer is to abandon science and resort to faith. You’re free to do so, of course — but please don’t claim that you’re doing it for scientific reasons." There are more than those two possibilities. 1. The Designer chose to design in such a way that we cannot discern his intentions of being known. 2. The Designer designed in such a way that we can discern whether or not he intended on making himself known. 3. The Designer designed in such a way that we can know that he intended not to be known. 4. The Designer designed in such a way that we can know his design and know that he intended on us knowing his design and him being known through it. 5. The Designer lacks the capacity to show himself through the design. 6. The Designer lacks the capacity to hide himself through the design. 7. The Designer doesn't care one way or the other to show himself through the design and hasn't done so. 8. The Designer does care one way or the other to show himself through the design and has done so. This could go on............... Number three looks like a contradiction, because if he really were to make things look like he weren't there, and if he succeeded, we wouldn't discern him. But, nevertheless, it would still be designed, we just wouldn't know it. But the evidence wouldn't speak one way or the other about it, not for it or against it. So to follow the evidence would never tell you that there wasn't a Designer--it would only tell you that you don't really know one way or the other. In your #1, there is a Designer, and the conclusion that he doesn't exist would be false, even though the evidence led you to that conclusion. But your #1 is really an inference, at all costs; and the inference could, realistically, go the other way, and evidence that the Designer is present, and the continuing inference that he is making himself known.Clive Hayden
March 29, 2009
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All amphibians, mammals and reptiles have this middle ear bone (now called the stapes) thanks to the modification of the hyomandibula, which itself was a modification of the epihyoid, which itself was one part of the original acellular cartilaginous rod in the two pharyngeal slits that arose in the ancestor of the deuterostomes.
Just so. :/ This qualifies as evidence how? I have not read the paper, but I'm curious to know whether it goes beyond telling stories to, at the least, giving some sort of scientific description of these modifications. Was it modified through selection, exaptation, or emergence? Or maybe I just don't have the requisite imagination?Phinehas
March 28, 2009
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skeech: Wikipedia is not necessarily truth, you know, and we in ID have a slight feeling that it is a little bit biased against us. And you did not comment about all the other examples of "saltation" i mentioned. Will you offer us even for them a comforting reassurance from wikipedia that they are perfectly compatible with pure gradualism? Regarding the second point, you may notice that my argument started with the following: "I am always amazed at how much darwinists seem to know of the designer," So, it should be evident that I was rather widening the argument, including other similar affirmations made by other darwinists in the past. If you felt that I was including you in all the examples I offered, I apologize. But you did make a similar statement about the designer, about his methods and capacities if not about his purposes. Here it is: "A designer, however, can make changes of any size he likes." and then: "the designer specifically chose a method of design that both conforms to a nested hierarchy and limits itself to incremental changes" So, my answer remains perfectly valid: what do you know about what the designer can do or likes to do? what do you know about his choices? First of all there is no evidence that design is implemented "only" in incremental changes. Indeed, there is no evidence at all that it is implemented in incremental changes. For all supposed transitions (always vague) from one protein to another, the supposed intermediate forms are not known, and probably never existed. Incremental pathways of evolution at the molecular level (let's say, through selectable changes of one-two aminoacids at a time) are exactly what darwinists never detail, and IDists always ask for. There is no known incremental molecular pathway for OOL. There is no incremental explanation for ediacara explosion and cambrian explosion, whatever wikipedia, you, or anybody else may imagine. So, was OOL incremental? We don't know, but there is absolutely no evidence of that. Was the emergence of the bacterial flagellum incremental? there is no evidence of that. Was the emergence of the fundamental proteins which are present even in the most simple organisms incremental? Please show the evidence. Was the emergence of the genetic code incremental? And where are the intermediate codes, other than in the fantasy of darwinists? So, excuse me, but I maintain my statement: you seem to have too much faith in gradual changes, even for an orthodox darwinist. About the designer, you say a lot of arbitrary and wrong things. You say: "he chose to design in a way that makes it appear as if he’s not there" What does that mean? Even if the designer acted only gradually (which is not proven at all), why should that make appear as if he's not there? You seem to be very confused about what proves the existence of the designer according to ID: it is not certainly the chronological modality of the implementation, but rather the formal properties of the designed product and the absence of any credible non design explanation of biological information. Time modalities have no role in that argument. So, why do you attribute so much importance to them? Even if the designer acted gradually, his presence is obvious because of the nature of the things he has designed: he may have designed them gradually in one billion years, or in one day, nothing changes: designed they are just the same. Moreover, if the designer is a God, he is probably not in a hurry, and his ideas of time may differ a little from ours. Do you usually judge the value of a work of art according to the time it required to be created? Or the graduality of the process? Does a painter paint gradually, or does he usually paint for one day, then stops for ten years, then paint again for ten minutes, then stop again for one year? Is he more a designer if he acts that way? Or is he a mechanical random machine if he paints regularly throughout the time he has available? You say: "out of a huge number of possible design strategies, he chose the only one that makes it appear as if he’s not there at all". Again, what do you know of the "huge number of possible design strategies"? Are you an expert of the available strategies in the context where biological information emerged? Could you have done better? And what do you know about choices available to the designer, and about the possible motives why a choice could have been made? You seem to imply that, were you the designer, you would have made your presence more obvious. But you know, to many of us that presence is very obvious, although not arrogantly self-emphasized. So "the evidence points to the absence of a designer" only in your very biased and superficial reasoning. Please don't ask that I comply with it. And I maintain that I make my scientific choices for scientific reasons. You are free to disagree, and I will not probably be too unhappy for that.gpuccio
March 28, 2009
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gpuccio wrote:
First of all, you seem to have too much faith in gradual changes, even for an orthodox darwinist. Have you entirely forgotten OOL, punctuated equilibriums, ediacara explosions, cambrian explosions, flower explosions, and so on?
gpuccio, You've fallen prey to a common misconception about these phenomena. This excerpt from the Wikipedia article on punctuated equilibrium explains your error:
Punctuated equilibrium is often confused with George Gaylord Simpson's quantum evolution,[10] Richard Goldschmidt's saltationism,[11] pre-Lyellian catastrophism, and the phenomenon of mass extinction. Punctuated equilibrium is therefore mistakenly thought to oppose the concept of gradualism, when it is actually a form of gradualism, in the ecological sense of biological continuity.[3] This is because even though evolutionary change appears instantaneous between geological sediments, change is still occurring incrementally, with no great change from one generation to the next.
gpuccio then fulminates:
Second, and most important, I am always amazed at how much darwinists seem to know of the designer, his modalities, his purposes, and his nature, when we in ID are explicitly ignorant about that. What do you know of what a designer of biological information can do, wants to do, likes to do, and so on? Where does your strange security comes from, that a designer should implement his design according to your wishes, according to your perception of time and space, and according to you ideas of his purposes? ...But among those constraints, there is one that I firmly believe has never worried the designer, whoever or whatever he is: the necessity to please darwinists and to comply with their expectations.
Your tirade is odd, considering that I've said absolutely nothing about the designer's desires or purposes. Nor have I expressed any expectations regarding the designer. Here are my words, verbatim:
Conclusion: If common design is true, then the designer specifically chose a method of design that both conforms to a nested hierarchy and limits itself to incremental changes. In other words, out of a huge number of possible design strategies, he chose the only one that makes it appear as if he’s not there at all.
I have commented only on what the putative designer did, not on his purposes. You did exactly the same thing when you suggested that the designer worked by "designed common descent." ID proponents like to talk about "following the evidence where it leads," so let's do that now. There are two possibilities: 1. There is a designer, but he chose to design in a way that makes it appear as if he's not there. 2. There is no designer. Note that in both cases the evidence points to the absence of a designer. If you accept #1, you're doing so in spite of the evidence, not because of it. In other words, to "follow the evidence wherever it leads" is to conclude that there is no designer. To insist that there is a designer is to abandon science and resort to faith. You're free to do so, of course -- but please don't claim that you're doing it for scientific reasons.skeech
March 28, 2009
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DLH wrote:
There is no credible possibility that small incremental changes could have developed such massive increases in biological information in such a short time - followed by stasis.
According to Stephen Meyer and the Discovery Institute, no. According to biologists, yes.skeech
March 28, 2009
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They're equivalent because in both cases, 'skeech' says that something 'can happen', and 'Phinehas' jumps to the absurd conclusion that this means that skeech is unwilling to claim that it has happened.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that co-option did happen?
Of course. Didn't you read the McLennan paper? Here McLennan describes one of the best-known examples of co-option:
All amphibians, mammals and reptiles have this middle ear bone (now called the stapes) thanks to the modification of the hyomandibula, which itself was a modification of the epihyoid, which itself was one part of the original acellular cartilaginous rod in the two pharyngeal slits that arose in the ancestor of the deuterostomes. No new structures had to appear to support this part of the transition from filter feeding to respiration to predation to sound detection. All that was required was the co-option, followed by modification, of the basic building blocks that had been laid down 900 mya ((for a thought provoking, incredibly readable discussion of the importance of co-option in the evolution of animal bodies, see (Shubin 2008)).
skeech
March 28, 2009
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Skeech, in what way are those logically equivalent? Are you implying that you think that co-option can happen in the same way you think that birds can fly? Instead of two-stepping around the issue, maybe you could directly address: Have you seen co-option in action the same way you've seen birds flying? Do you have any evidence whatsoever that co-option did happen?Phinehas
March 28, 2009
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skeech at 22
Darwinian theory predicts small changes, and is therefore compatible with the evidence. A designer, however, can make changes of any size he likes. . . .In other words, out of a huge number of possible design strategies, he chose the only one that makes it appear as if he’s not there at all.
The "minor" problem with your statement is that it is diametrically at odds with facts. See: Intelligent Design: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories By: Stephen C. Meyer, Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington May 18, 2007 There is no credible possibility that small incremental changes could have developed such massive increases in biological information in such a short time - followed by stasis. That burst with stasis is commonly seen in engineering design. Applying actual facts to your logic results in the opposite conclusion.DLH
March 28, 2009
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Adel: I would have like to comment the paper by True and Carroll in detail, but unfortunately I have no access to it. The best I could find was a discussion on discovery.org about it ("Neo-Darwinism's Unsolved Problem of the Origin of Morphological Novelty"), where a passage of it is quoted: "The mechanisms by which duplication and transposition bring about co-option of novel gene functions have thus far been hidden from view because functionally important polymorphisms [i.e., variations] involving these events are difficult to identify. The next phase of evolutionary developmental biology research must address this paradox by investigating the levels, causes, and consequences of microevolutionary variation in developmental systems." (p. 74) But I understand that it's not much. Anyway, I eally don't see how True and Carroll could prove a detailed mechanism by which, through credible random variation, events like "the other copy retained the plesiomorphicfunction coupled with a change in location (restricted to the lens)" took place. If you have access to the paper, and if you can sum up some of the evidence, I would be very much interested in discussing it.gpuccio
March 28, 2009
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skeech: "Darwinian theory predicts small changes, and is therefore compatible with the evidence. A designer, however, can make changes of any size he likes." Wrong. And for two different reasons. First of all, you seem to have too much faith in gradual changes, even for an orthodox darwinist. Have you entirely forgotten OOL, punctuated equilibriums, ediacara explosions, cambrian explosions, flower explosions, and so on? Second, and most important, I am always amazed at how much darwinists seem to know of the designer, his modalities, his purposes, and his nature, when we in ID are explicitly ignorant about that. What do you know of what a designer of biological information can do, wants to do, likes to do, and so on? Where does your strange security comes from, that a designer should implement his design according to your wishes, according to your perception of time and space, and according to you ideas of his purposes? Personally, I do believe, and have always believed, that a designer, even if he be an omnipotent god, can well act according to specific constraints, once he is acting in a specific context. Any context spontaneously generates constraints. And modalities. And forms. Biological information is a form (indeed, an incredibly rich set of different forms) inside other forms. Any design of biological information, and any implementation of that design, is bound to have specific forms and times and modalities. But among those constraints, there is one that I firmly believe has never worried the designer, whoever or whatever he is: the necessity to please darwinists and to comply with their expectations. So, I see no huge problem for ID (indeed, not even a small problem), but I am grateful for your willingness to help.gpuccio
March 28, 2009
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Adel: thank you for the references, I will look at them. Anyway, I have many doubts that the "just so stories" in that paper will be solved. we will see. In the meantime, there were no specific references in the paper to support the affirmations I quoted. But let's postpone the discussion to later, when I have read your references (if I can find them in the internet).gpuccio
March 28, 2009
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I wrote:
Johnson, like so many ID supporters and creationists, makes the mistake of thinking that common design and Darwinian common descent lead to the same pattern of distribution of features. They do not. There are many different ways of employing common design, most of which do not yield the amazingly consistent nested hierarchies, across multiple traits, that we see in nature. For some reason the Designer seems to have singled one the one method that does so, thus creating the illusion of common descent. How odd.
gpuccio replies:
That’s correct, although IMO not definitive. That’s why most of us in ID believe in common descent: designed common descent. Pure common design is always a possibility, but I am well aware that there are arguments against it, such as those you cite.
Actually, the problem is even worse than that for the ID proponent, and conceding the truth of common descent doesn't solve it. "Designed common descent", as you call it, is also at odds with the evidence. This is because phylogenetic trees are inferred using a principle of parsimony: when two possible trees are being considered, the one involving the least evolutionary change is preferred. The fact that this heuristic yields consistent nested hierarchies across traits indicates not only that common descent is true, as you concede, but also that evolutionary changes are incremental. Darwinian theory predicts small changes, and is therefore compatible with the evidence. A designer, however, can make changes of any size he likes. Conclusion: If common design is true, then the designer specifically chose a method of design that both conforms to a nested hierarchy and limits itself to incremental changes. In other words, out of a huge number of possible design strategies, he chose the only one that makes it appear as if he's not there at all. This is a huge problem for ID, and one that deserves to be better known among ID supporters.skeech
March 28, 2009
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Sorry, I was referring to gpuccio [18]Adel DiBagno
March 28, 2009
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gpuccio [15]:
I quote here form the cooption paper: “In the first event one of the copies of a heat shock protein (copy 1) retained its plesiomorphic function (protection against damage) and plesiomorphic location (throughout the body), while the other (copy 2) added a change in function (focusing light) to the old function of protection from degradation in the plesiomorphic location. The second duplication event involved copy 2; as before, one copy retained the (new) plesiomorphic function3 (focusing light, protection against damage) and the plesiomorphic location (many tissues), while the other copy retained the plesiomorphicfunction coupled with a change in location (restricted to the lens).” That’s what we in ID call, deservedly, a “just so story”. There is no discussion of causal factors, no analysis of probabilities, no credible detaile path. Just blind faith that darwinian evolution can do everything we demand of it. For instance, how was the “change in location” achieved? By a random mutation in the rehulatory, and vastly unknown, procedures which determine the emergence of specific transcriptomes in different cells? How credinle is that assumption? How credible are all the other assumtpions made in that single paragraph? Indeed, is there anything else than gratuitous assumtpions in that paragraph? and in the whole paper? Or in the whole concept of cooption?
Someone with a scientific background should know the differences between (a) a review written for a general audience (the paper in Evo. Edu. Outreach by Deborah A. McLennan), (b) a review written for a specialist audience, and the primary peer-reviewed literature. Perhaps you missed the opening sentence of the paragraph from which your quotation was taken: "Crystallins are soluble proteins found in the lens of all vertebrates examined to date and some invertebrates (the following summary is taken from (True and Carroll 2002) and references therein)." The True and Carroll paper (Annu. Rev. Cell Dev. Biol. 2002. 18:53–80) is an example of (b), a specialist review. If you peruse it, you will find discussions of crystallin and lens evolution on pages 57-61 supported by numerous citations to the primary literature. It is inaccurate to disparage the scientific status of evolutionary co-option on the basis of a paragraph taken from a type (a) review.Adel DiBagno
March 28, 2009
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@gpuccio: I totally agree with you about the "just so stories". When you hear a darwinist talk about the evolution of the eye for instance they are not describing darwinian pathways, but describing design steps or brilliant optimisations of the eye without even knowing it. The "change in location" problem has always fascinated me, because the systems that determine location(both in space and time in development) are very complex.critiacrof
March 28, 2009
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skeech: A few comments. You say: "Johnson, like so many ID supporters and creationists, makes the mistake of thinking that common design and Darwinian common descent lead to the same pattern of distribution of features. They do not. There are many different ways of employing common design, most of which do not yield the amazingly consistent nested hierarchies, across multiple traits, that we see in nature. For some reason the Designer seems to have singled one the one method that does so, thus creating the illusion of common descent. How odd." That's correct, although IMO not definitive. That's why most of us in ID believe in common descent: designed common descent. Pure common design is always a possibility, but I am well aware that there are arguments against it, such as those you cite. "Since no one watched all of the molecules in the atmosphere to make sure they followed the laws of physics, we don’t know if today’s sunny skies over California are natural or the work of the Designer." This point, instead, is IMO unacceptable. We have very credible scientific models for the events you describe: they may not be perfect, but good models they are, with explicit reasoning about mechanical laws, probability and chaotic systems, and a reaslistic mathematical treatment of theose factors. The same is absolutely not true of darwinian theory, least of all of the cooption "hypothesis" (I fully share Gil's reservations about the term). Just as an example, I quote here form the cooption paper: "In the first event one of the copies of a heat shock protein (copy 1) retained its plesiomorphic function (protection against damage) and plesiomorphic location (throughout the body), while the other (copy 2) added a change in function (focusing light) to the old function of protection from degradation in the plesiomorphic location. The second duplication event involved copy 2; as before, one copy retained the (new) plesiomorphic function3 (focusing light, protection against damage) and the plesiomorphic location (many tissues), while the other copy retained the plesiomorphic function coupled with a change in location (restricted to the lens)." That's what we in ID call, deservedly, a "just so story". There is no discussion of causal factors, no analysis of probabilities, no credible detaile path. Just blind faith that darwinian evolution can do everything we demand of it. For instance, how was the "change in location" achieved? By a random mutation in the rehulatory, and vastly unknown, procedures which determine the emergence of specific transcriptomes in different cells? How credinle is that assumption? How credible are all the other assumtpions made in that single paragraph? Indeed, is there anything else than gratuitous assumtpions in that paragraph? and in the whole paper? Or in the whole concept of cooption? Well, maybe the evolution of Corvettes is a fact. Ah, but I forgot that it was just an analogy...gpuccio
March 28, 2009
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