26 Replies to “Comments on Hawking and Dawkins

  1. 1
    tribune7 says:

    The sad thing is that there are those who will say “Hawkin is a smart guy and he says God doesn’t have to exist” hence I don’t have to believe in God.

    The human mind is quite capable of imagining — it’s easy if you try, actually — a framework in which existence can occur without a creator.

    In fact, it’s been rather common in history — the steady-state universe, or something similar, was the standard among the intellectual set for a very long time.

    The point, however, isn’t whether God has to exist, it’s whether if He does.

    Hawking is human. He is subject to bias emotion, and flawed reasoning. His theory is unfalsifiable (cough, cough, is it science?)

    And does he really satisfactorily explain how order (mathematics) can come from disorder without direction?

    Anyway, some will put their faith in Hawkin. I’ll stick with Jesus.

  2. 2
    Kyrilluk says:

    Despite the new offensive of the New Atheist, it becomes more and more difficult to hide the fact that science (the one that get done in the labs..not the one done in bedrooms filled with cannabis smoke) is showing more and more reason to believe that the Universe was designed (the alternative would be to believe in billions and billions Universe).

  3. 3
    zeroseven says:

    Kryilluk, what you call the “new offensive of the New Atheist” is a process that has been going on for millenia, of looking at the world around us and trying to understand us. Science has bought us every single piece of knowledge we have about the world and religion nothing.

    It is difficult to face the truth of how strange and random and unfathomable and uncaring the universe is, but I would rather face the truth myself.

    Contrary to your assertion, the design hypothesis is being eroded at the same rate as scientific knowledge is advancing (except on this blog and others like it).

    And why is a scenario of billions and billions of universes unbelievable?

  4. 4
    tribune7 says:

    And why is a scenario of billions and billions of universes unbelievable?

    Because it’s a statement of faith by people who claim not to have any.

    It’s an attempt to reason away the truth of the existence of God.

  5. 5
    Scruffy says:

    Science has bought us every single piece of knowledge we have about the world

    That is simply false, I’ll let Dr. William Lane Craig explain why:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

    And why is a scenario of billions and billions of universes unbelievable?

    Because there’s no evidence for it. Would you care to explain why people shouldn’t consider it unbelievable?

  6. 6
    zeroseven says:

    Hi Scruffy, I haven’t got time to watch youtube videos sorry. Could you give me some examples of knowledge that religion has given us?

    I don’t think people should believe or not believe the scenario. I would see it as a hypothesis that can be evaluated and over time accepted or discarded.

  7. 7
    Clive Hayden says:

    Scruffy,

    That is simply false, I’ll let Dr. William Lane Craig explain why:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..re=related

    That’s a good rebuttal of the tired and wrong argument that science is omniscient.

  8. 8
    bornagain77 says:

    Excellent point Scruffy, but to further address zeroseven’s blatant deception here:

    Contrary to your assertion, the design hypothesis is being eroded at the same rate as scientific knowledge is advancing

    zeroseven let’s just take an overview of the major scientific discoveries within the last century and see how much Theism has been eroded:

    the materialistic and Theistic philosophy make, and have made, several natural contradictory predictions about what evidence we will find. These predictions, and the evidence we have found, can be tested against one another within the scientific method.

    For a quick overview here are a few:

    1.Materialism predicted an eternal universe, Theism predicted a created universe. – Big Bang points to a creation event. –

    2. Materialism predicted time had an infinite past, Theism predicted time had a creation – Time was created in the Big Bang. –

    3. Materialism predicted space has always existed, Theism predicted space had a creation (Psalm 89:12) – Space was created in the Big Bang. –

    4. Materialism predicted at the base of physical reality would be a solid indestructible material particle which rigidly obeyed the rules of time and space, Theism predicted the basis of this reality was created by a infinitely powerful and transcendent Being who is not limited by time and space – Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our reality which blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. –

    5. Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe, Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time – Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 – 2 Timothy 1:9)-

    6. Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind – Every transcendent universal constant scientists can measure is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. –

    7. Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe – Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe. –

    8. Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made – ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a “biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.”. –

    9. Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth – The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) –

    10. Materialism predicted a very simple first life form which accidentally came from “a warm little pond”. Theism predicted God created life – The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) –

    11. Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11) – We find evidence for complex photo-synthetic life in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth –

    12. Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life to be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse life to appear abruptly in the seas in God’s fifth day of creation. – The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short “geologic resolution time” in the Cambrian seas. –

    13. Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record – Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record, then rapid diversity within the group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. –

    14. Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth – Man himself is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. –

    As you can see when we remove the artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy, from the scientific method, and look carefully at the predictions of both the materialistic philosophy and the Theistic philosophy, side by side, we find the scientific method is very good at pointing us in the direction of Theism as the true explanation. – In fact it is even very good at pointing us to Christianity:

    General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics & the Shroud Of Turin – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5070355

  9. 9
    bornagain77 says:

    Shoot I almost forgot the most important one:

    Materialism predicted that material has always existed, Theism predicted ‘material’ was created. – Material was created in the Big Bang.

  10. 10
    Scruffy says:

    Hey zeroseven,

    The video is only 3 minutes long and WLC can explain it far better than I, so if you have the time, I suggest taking a look.

    The video I linked has nothing to do with what religion has shown us about the world. It simply points out that science can not and has not explained every thing we know as you are asserting.

    I’ll leave you with this, scientifically prove to me that it is wrong or not wrong to murder someone.

  11. 11
    zeroseven says:

    BA, I didn’t mention theism, I was talking about the design hypothesis. But I guess if we are hones, it is the same thing right.

    1 – 3. What has theism told us about the big bang? Through science we have compiled an immensely rich field of knowledge starting from thousandths of seconds after the big bang?

    4. What? Quantum mechanics therefore God? Who split the atom Who’s looking for the Higg’s boson?

    5. Einstein developed relativity. My God, if the bible had all the answers to these achingly difficult scientific questions all along, why didn’t the biblical scholars just tell us the answers? Why wait for Einstein etc to come along?

    6.

  12. 12
    zeroseven says:

    6. Sorry hit the button early. 6 and 7, these are contradictory. God created the universe and fine tuned it just for us versus our planet is unique and life is rare in the universe. (For that matter, much of our planet is hostile to human life as well).

    I might just leave it there and see if this gets through moderation.

  13. 13
    zeroseven says:

    Hi Scruffy, I watched it, and yes, fair point, I was being a bit glib with my claim to all knowledge. I guess I meant knowledge about the natural world. Science doesn’t answer the question whether it is wrong to murder someone, but neither does religion. Most religions seem to be quite tolerant of murder.

  14. 14
    Kyrilluk says:

    zeroseven: “Could you give me some examples of knowledge that religion has given us?”
    The fact is that there is two kind of science: the one that is giving us planes, flat screen tv, etc.. and the one that is giving us ideology (such evolution and speculation about stuff that we can’t test such as 11 dimensions or parallels universes): this kind of science I would call it pseudo-science or just speculations.
    Religion doesn’t, as such, provide any technological advances and it’s not its purpose, even if it contributed a great deal to the advancement of our civilisation (the first universities for example, the widespread use of paper, etc..) . Therefore, you cannot compare it with REAL science (physics and biology for example). On the other hand, religion is giving you a better understanding of the world around us and as such fare much better than the usual mombo-jumbo of just-so story from pseudo-sciences.

  15. 15
    Alex73 says:

    zeroseven:

    Could you give me some examples of knowledge that religion has given us?

    Not religion, because I do not think that all religions are the same thing. But I know a few things the Bible gave us. For example:

    There is a Creator, a rational being. He is also a lawmaker and a mathematician/engineer/information technologist etc. He made us to be like him in many aspects. He gave mankind the mandate to explore and rule the world around us. He is also good, so fulfilling this mandate is not just possible, but also great fun. Because we are like him, we can understand and appreciate his handywork.

    There. From these you get what we call science, just ask Newton, Kepler, Maxwell and others who found these principles (and many others) dead reliable. If you need actual Bible quotes I can supply you with those also.

    I could go on to non-scientific stuff also. Like it is good to love our enemies, children are valuable, even if they are not yours etc.

  16. 16
    Edson says:

    Science has bought us every single piece of knowledge we have about the world and religion nothing..

    It may seem difficult, but I can see the day when humanity will feel no need to insist that science and religion are deadly concurring entities. With religion I mean, yes, that described by the Bible. According to it, the enormous human potential to evolve in knowledge is porposedly unique in the earth. People were made to use this potential in harmony with one another and with the One who knows how it works. The result would be a highly advanced and integrated society. Can you imagine humanity exploring the universe without having to simultaneously worry about social disgraces and financial and environemental issues? How would the world be if love was its base, not money? If you are a creature who finds this possibility appreciating, why not try to consider the evidences by the premise that there is a truth behind spirituality, that the world is not made only of astronomicaly lucky randomness?

    The Bible does not approve faith as blind credulity. Instead, it is associated with light, “exact knowledge”. Faith is a human quality which accompains love, trust and the correct disposition of heart towards the spiritual. It’s comparable to our liking our peers to be confident in us. Faith is always stimulated througout the Bible and shows that, since the beginning, the Bible accounts for the human necessity to transcend the visible, since we are “dust”. But faith has NOTHING to do with being unreasonable or leaving science aside. For the contrary. If our potential has a purpose, it is to BUILD knowledge, not reject it.

    The problem is that some still confuse God with what men do in the name of religion. The Bible was not made to be personalized or followed only in part. In this concern, did you know that Jehovah/Iaveh, far from being patriotic, proclaimed against his own people, including priests and kings? Yes, the Bible is right in showing that Spirituality + human selfishness = aberration. Jesus exposed it clearly in the face of the pharisees and predicted it would undoubtedly happen with Cristianity. Then appeared Chatolic Church, philosophic intrusions such as hell, trinity… then came commercial and political Christianity.

    In all this we can see, zeroseven, that the Bible tells us the truth about ourselves. For example, society is associating our comprehension of the world with the inexistence of God because the world has the personality of a character called Satan. He is said in the Bible as believing that, once awaken from the false impression that God is superior, once convinced of having (according to Satan) seen truth and advantage apart from the Creator, humanity would abandon faith and submission to God. It is what Satan wanted to show by Adam, Job, Jesus, the entire Israel and today’s world.

    Another correct description that the Bible makes is that registered in Isaiah 11:9: “…the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.” One day we will realize how idiot it is to waste our time and intelligence discussing whether nature autonomy disproves the existence of God.

    sorry for my bad english. πŸ™‚

  17. 17
    StephenB says:

    —zeroseven: “Could you give me some examples of knowledge that religion has given us?”

    Here is one from Christianity that you may have missed: Because humans have been created in the image of God, they have inherent dignity and deserve, therefore, to be free from tyranny. The founders declared it to be a self evident truth, a little piece of knowledge that just happend to launch and sustain the American revolution.

  18. 18
    uoflcard says:

    Contrary to your assertion, the design hypothesis is being eroded at the same rate as scientific knowledge is advancing (except on this blog and others like it).

    Perhaps you don’t realize that simply asserting that ID is false doesn’t make it false. Arguments from authority mean nothing. I will ask as it has been asked thousands of times before: Show me evidence of neo-Darwinian mechanisms producing funcitonal, complex, specified information. If it is occurring so rapidly (apparently with every single scientific advancement…), you should have an OCEAN of examples to provide me with. But since I’ve asked this dozens of times before to others (and have witnessed it asked hundreds of other times) all without a remotely satisfactory answer (parameters are clearly laid out in ID literature), I would be surprised if you provided it.

    Oh, and citing PZ Myers calling ID advocates “cretins” or some other ad hominem attack doesn’t count as evidence of random mutation and natural selection forming fCSI.

  19. 19
    andrewjg says:

    β€”zeroseven: β€œCould you give me some examples of knowledge that religion has given us?”

    To add to what others have stated. I think Christianity in particular has given us more important knowledge than science. It tells us why people at all times have a yearning for justice and at the same time a pressing need to justify themselves. It tells us why sacrifice in all its forms especially self sacrifice is universally seen as almost being the highest good even when those same people who recognise it are actively taught it is an act of follow.

    It gives us a rational account for why people identify beauty as being objectively so and not just subjectively. It tells us why morality is almost universally the same amongst all cultures and people – even atheists.

    It tells us why we love and feel emotion and are not just cold hearted machines.

    All things science is powerless to tell us.

  20. 20
    zeroseven says:

    BA, just to finish. What you have done is given a number of fuzzy concepts from the bible and concluded that Christianity gave us an understanding of the big bang, quantum physics, and most other major scientific discoveries. No, what gave us these advances in knowledge are the scientists.

    Kryilluk @14

    No, these are not two kinds of science. The theory of evolution is subject to the same disciplines and structures as any other branch of science.

    And if we obtained our knowledge of the world from Christianity we would still be thinking the earth was flat, the sun revolved around it, the planet is only 6,000 years old, storms were caused by God etc, etc.

    Alex @15, that is simply theological speculation, not knowledge. Do you really love your enemies?

    This is just dissolving into a theological discussion. The only point I was making was that science has provided us with all the knowledge we have of the natural world.

    StephenB, one question though. I am interested in this idea of being created in the image of God. Does that mean that God looks like us?

  21. 21
    Clive Hayden says:

    zeroseven,

    And if we obtained our knowledge of the world from Christianity we would still be thinking the earth was flat, the sun revolved around it, the planet is only 6,000 years old, storms were caused by God etc, etc.

    You, being an empiricist, should be able to provide evidence for these claims from scripture, right? I won’t be holding my breath….

  22. 22
    zeroseven says:

    Clive;

    Sorry, I can’t quote chapter and verse. But I understood that geocentrism and the age of the earth both come from scripture. Am I wrong? Flat earth, ok maybe not. Storms – God caused the flood right?

    To be fair, I should have been more generic and said religion not Christianity, as all of these things are products of other older religions also.

  23. 23
    Clive Hayden says:

    zeroseven,

    Sorry, I can’t quote chapter and verse. But I understood that geocentrism and the age of the earth both come from scripture. Am I wrong? Flat earth, ok maybe not. Storms – God caused the flood right?

    Yes, you are wrong.

    To be fair, I should have been more generic and said religion not Christianity, as all of these things are products of other older religions also.

    This isn’t fair either, because it’s simply not true. I question your knowledge of religion in general and Christianity in particular, it seems to me to be based on things you’ve heard, not first hand study.

  24. 24
    bornagain77 says:

    zeroseven you state;

    ‘BA, just to finish. What you have done is given a number of fuzzy concepts from the bible and concluded that Christianity gave us an understanding of the big bang, quantum physics, and most other major scientific discoveries. No, what gave us these advances in knowledge are the scientists.’

    zeroseven, what I did was show that Theism is quite compatible with the major breakthrough discoveries that we have made within the last century while atheistic materialism is quite incompatible with them. Do you disagree with this? If so there is no reasoning with you for the conclusions is blatantly obvious!
    As well zeroseven you treat science as if the discoveries made by ‘science’ were completely immune to overriding philosophical considerations, and again that is simply not true. Science for you seems to be severely twisted into the materialistic philosophy whereas you seem incapable to separate the two i.e. when you say science I could almost just as easily insert materialism into its place and they would mean the same thing to you. But the most glaring thing that it seems that you don’t understand is that without God, guaranteeing absolute truth, science would be impossible for materialism is adamant in one of its primary philosophical tenets that ‘transcendent absolute truths’ do not exist. This fact is so clear it is hard to see how you can miss, but never-the-less this following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed ‘Presuppositional apologetics’. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place.

    From whence do these transcendent absolute truths come from zeroseven?

    Proof That God Exists – easy to use interactive website
    http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php

    Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe.
    Galileo Galilei

    The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences – Eugene Wigner
    Excerpt: The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning.
    http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc.....igner.html

    zeroseven these following sites show that without Christianity that modern science, which seems to be your ‘god’, would not even exist in the first place:

    Little known by most people is the fact that almost every, if not every, major branch of modern science has been founded by a scientist who believed in Christ:

    Christianity and The Birth of Science – Michael Bumbulis, Ph.D
    Excerpt: Furthermore, many of these founders of science lived at a time when others publicly expressed views quite contrary to Christianity – Hume, Hobbes, Darwin, etc. When Boyle argues against Hobbe’s materialism or Kelvin argues against Darwin’s assumptions, you don’t have a case of “closet atheists.”
    http://ldolphin.org/bumbulis/
    http://www.tektonics.org

    Christianity Gave Birth To Each Scientific Discipline – Dr. Henry Fritz Schaefer – video
    http://www.tangle.com/view_vid.....e044148a1b

    A Short List Of The Christian Founders Of Modern Science
    http://www.creationsafaris.com/wgcs_toc.htm

    The Origin of Science
    Excerpt: Modern science is not only compatible with Christianity, it in fact finds its origins in Christianity.
    http://www.columbia.edu/cu/aug.....rigin.html

    Thus zeroseven you are pretty much left naked for you stated this:

    ‘No, what gave us these advances in knowledge are the scientists.’

    and yet I have shown that these advances would not be possible if 1. God did not exist to guarantee that our perceptions of reality are true and 2. Christianity did not provide the bedrock from which modern science blossomed.

    Thus zeroseven since you love ‘science’ so much you should embrace the Christ of Christianity who has in fact made this relentless pursuit for a more complete understanding of the truth possible, or does the invention of science have more honor than the inventor of science in your eyes?

  25. 25
    Alex73 says:

    zeroseven, you are funny!

  26. 26
    gpuccio says:

    zeroseven:

    I am interested in this idea of being created in the image of God. Does that mean that God looks like us?

    Maybe more that we, as souls, look like Him…

Leave a Reply