Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

“Unpredictable” Does Not Equal “Contingent”

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In a previous post JT believes he has crushed the entire ID project by pointing out that: “A process determined entire[ly] by law can have EXTREMELY complex behavior and extremely difficult to predict behavior.”

 

No one disputes JT’s point, but it is beside the point as far as ID is concerned.  JT is making a common error – he is confusing “unpredictable” with “contingent.”  They are very different things.

 

When a bomb explodes the pieces of the bombshell are scattered willy nilly, and it is impossible to predict where any piece will land.  Nevertheless, where each and every piece lands is utterly determined by law.  In other words, where each piece lands is a function of nothing but the various physical forces acting upon it, which could, in principle, be modeled by a mathematical formula.  This is an example of the complex unpredictable behavior resulting from law to which JT alludes.

 

Contrast the complex unpredictable – but nevertheless determined – behavior of the bombshell with the contingent behavior of an intelligent agent.  This sentence that I am writing is an example of contingent behavior.  My choice of typing out a certain combination of letters and spaces and not another cannot be accounted for on the basis of any known law.  The only way to account for the sentence is as the contingent act of an intelligent agent.  I had a choice, and I wrote that sentence instead of another.

 

Now JT might counter that I only believe I had a choice in writing that sentence, that my consciousness is an illusion, and that my actions were governed by law as surely as the flight of the pieces of bombshell.  Well that’s the question isn’t it.  JT – and other materialists – do not know that my consciousness (and theirs) is an illusion.  They merely assert it, and until they can provide evidence (and by “evidence” I do not mean the recitation of their metaphysical tropes), that the seemingly self evident fact that I am conscious is not after all a fact, I will go on believing it.  What is more (and this is very amusing) so will they.  In other words, materialists struggle to prove that which they do not really believe.  Every one of them knows he is a conscious agent, and why they attempt to prove that which they know for a certain fact not to be the case is a mystery. 

 

Later JT wrote:  “And for the record, I generally put ‘mind’ in quotes when referring to the ID concept of it and don’t use the term much at all, because of the potential for confusion.”

 

One wonders what JT meant by “I,” in that sentence, because if, as he says, the mind does not exist, the concept of “I” has no meaning, so it seems to me that it would make more sense for him to put irony quotes around “I” and not “mind.”  This, of course, is just another example of how the materialist is forced to affirm the non-materialist case in the very act of attempting to refute it. 

Comments
Barry A., Remind me, please, why are we doing this so-called discussion with the dark side? The quasiscientific Darwinist-materialist lumpenproletariat sure as hell will not contribute anything worthwhile to serious scientific discussions. They have invested their life and work in the fairytales, so absent divine intervention it is unlikely they will change. There are undoubtedly mistakes and errors in the chain of arguments comprising Intelligent Design, the bulk of which is part of mathematical information theory; but those errors will be detected and corrected by US, not them. We all believe what we WANT to believe, that is why we should not "dialogue". The purpose and intentions of the materialist side is NOT the discovery of truth. There is no basis for communication with those who are outside the accumulated knowledge of four thousand years of human history. We don't even speak a common language! The Explanatory Filter, CSI, and William Dembski will be remembered to the end of our western civilization, while the other side will sink into well deserved obscurity! We seek the truth, we are not asked to be successful, only to be faithful to the truth! What if we are unpopular among the loosers? They are the majority, you say? I say with the Bard: We few, we happy few, we band of brothers! Let us converse only with those of good will!Trebics
December 15, 2008
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-----mynym: "According to the Christian religion, human beings and all other created things exist for the greater glory of God; according to sociobiology, human beings and all other living things exist for the benefit of their genes." Very nice!StephenB
December 15, 2008
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Please correct me if I am wrong but I am not aware that either Dr. Dembski or Prof. Behe ever used the term FCSI. IIRC it was KF who braught up the term at UD. Despite his enthusiams in spreading it I wonder what professional ID theorists would have to say about FCSI.sparc
December 15, 2008
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At that point all you have is randomness or “something else” as an explanation and if it can’t be randomness (because of the Design Inference) then it must be “something else”. But what information do we glean by replacing the phrase “something else” with “Intelligent Agent?” Answer: None. What I meant was that if Intelligent Agency is distinct from law, which it is for most in ID, it is meaningless to invoke Intelligent Agency as a cause. If you cannot potentially identify a pattern characterizing how an entity functions in at least some known set of circumstances, then that entity's behavior is completely random. Contrarily, to be able to identify such a pattern is equivalent to identifying laws that govern how that entity operates in those circumstances. If you cannot characterize the behavior of some entity via some set of laws (potentially a large and complex set of laws) then the behavior of that entity is random. So an intelligent agent not determined by laws is meaningless and equivalent to randomness amd invoking it as a cause for something explains NOTHING.JT
December 15, 2008
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CJYMan wrote[9]:
This has nothing to do with magical minds floating around. This has to do with intelligence (as the ability to model the future and then organize law and chance to arrive at a future specified goal at better than chance, which does exist as per our experience) being fundamentally either alongside matter and law or preceding matter and law as we presently understand it. The “material” properties of this intelligence is inconsequential for the purposes of this debate, however that would be an interesting subject to explore
So you seem to be clearly implying that it would be possible for a computer to be intelligent in precisely the same sense as a human being because you say the material properties of intelligence are inconseqential. You also say it has nothing to do with magical minds floating around. You also you are not demanding free will. You say it has to do with foresight, and I would agree with that. Speaking of foresight I almost posted an article her the other day (from Drudge) about Japanese researchers being able to view the actual visual images in a person's dreams because they understand now how visual data is stored in the brain. This is not science fiction, it is real exactly as described above. Furthermore, my personal conviction is that there is a concerted attempt at upper echelons of power in society to downplay the actual ability that has long existed in this area until the public can be gradually acclimated to accepted what can be done here, and what the ultimate uses are that are planned for such technology. That's another topic obviously, but the point is visual images are stored in the brain in a precise phyisical way such that they can be retrieved using a physical process. Should we really be surprised at this? Also, you allude to ultimate causes in that you say that mind had to precede matter, presumably with the idea of tracing mechanistic causes back to a point where nothing preceded them but say the big bang. At that point all you have is randomness or "something else" as an explanation and if it can't be randomness (because of the Design Inference) then it must be "something else". But what information do we glean by replacing the phrase "something else" with "Intelligent Agent?" Answer: None. You could just say the information in question always existed and thus no "intelligent agent" was needed to generate it. Maybe that's what you and others in ID already think and I just missed it. But anyway, I think you've already admitted that computers can potentially be intelligent in the same sense as a human as far we know, and that's good enough for me.JT
December 15, 2008
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ribczynski: You make a valid point when you criticize the "radio tuner" model of the mind-brain relationship. However, all this shows is that Cartesian dualism is false. There is an alternative non-dualistic Aristotelian account of the mind, which does justice to Barry's insistence that human agency is real and irreducible to brain processes. According to this account: (i) the term "mind" does not refer to a thing of any kind, let alone a thing interacting with the brain; (ii) nor does the term "mind" refer to some set of capacities which distinguish humans from other animals; (iii) still less does "mind" refer to some nebulous state such as "consciousness," whatever that means; (iv) rather, "mind" is synonymous with "intellect" or "rationality"; (v) this "intellect" is not a power "tacked on" to our animal nature - rather, it is part of the very "warp and woof" of being a human animal, since to be a human animal is to be an animal whose form of life is rational, and human intellectual acts are indeed animal acts; (vi) the apparent duality in the definition "rational animal" does not correspond to a duality in human beings - rather, it shows precisely how our human form of life is completely and indivisibly one. Indeed, the unity of a human being's actions is actually deeper and stronger than that underlying the acts of a non-rational animal: rationality allows us to bring together our past, present and future acts, when we formulate plans; (vii) materialists are right to insist on the absolute unity of human life and its essentially animal nature, but they go wrong in assuming that every act of an animal is necessarily a BODILY act; (viii) When Aristotle (and later, Aquinas) argue that the act of intellect is not the act of a bodily organ, they do not mean that there is a NON-ANIMAL act engaged in by human beings. Rather, they mean that not every act of an animal is a bodily act; (ix) acts of the human intellect are acts of the WHOLE person, which cannot be ascribed to a bodily organ such as the brain, so there is no way in which they could be determined by some set of physical laws governing interactions between bodies, as determinists contend. Curious readers might like to peruse John O'Callaghan's article at http://www2.nd.edu/Departments//Maritain/ti00/ocallagh.htm , which is a far more lucid exposition of the Aristotelian account than what I have attempted here in this brief sketch. Incidentally, one of the many philosophical grounds for rejecting the view that intellectual acts could possibly be bodily acts is that intellectual acts are capable of being self-reflexive. You can kick a ball; but you cannot kick "kicking." Nor can you see "seeing"; vision, like kicking, is a bodily act. However, you can easily think about the act of thinking about something, which is what I hope I have stimulated contributors who hold to a deterministic position - whether "hard" or "soft" - to do. Finally, the fact that human reasoning depends on the occurrence of events in the brain presents no difficulty for Aristotle's and Aquinas' hylomorphism, as the dependence is extrinsic rather than intrinsic. Show me that the very act of reasoning is by its very nature bound up with brain states, just as the act of seeing is essentially bound up with having an eye which is sensitive to color, and then I'll accept that some version of determinism must be true. Until then, I remain skeptical.vjtorley
December 15, 2008
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CJYMan: In response to what I'm reading now in your post [6] I want to give the following example I was think about earlier today. Its application to what you're saying is obvious to me - though I can spell it out if necessary. I don't know how the weather works exactly - I know its very complex. And I know its highly sensitive to condition external itself, so that it is influenced by ocean currents and other distinct attributes of the planet. I would suspect that the visible contours of the land masses of this planet, the continents that is, have a very specific impact on the weather of this planet. So that for example, say the Island of Cuba disappeared - that would dramatically effect weather systems in the Gulf of Mexico. So, what I'm thinking is that the land mass contours of earth, are in effect a DNA for a major subset of the functionality of the weather systems of this planet. In other words this contour of the earth's land masses encodes functionality external to itself. With enough knowledge, you could talk about what slight changes to the coastline of Maine would do to the Earth's weather. And at this point we probably know as much about DNA as we do about the effect of land mass contours on the weather. This would be in response to your idea that the laws of a computer program are categorically distinct from the laws of nature because the former encode symbolic information:
Moreover, as I have already explained in another thread to you, and have briefly repeated here, the organization which results in that very specific set of laws which result in a highly improbable function is not defined or caused by any laws of the units utilized. Again, the material used is not as important as how they are organized. Logic gates can in theory be created from any material. I have seen and designed my own mechanical logic gates, and I have seen examples of “water flow” logic gates. These logic gates, as well as those employed in electronic circuits are not a result of any laws or emergent properties of the physical or material properties of any of the material used.
Rereading the above however, I am thinking about the "highly improbable function" aspect of it, so maybe you would object to my analogy above on that basis. So here's my response, as I read the design inference (not the book - the theory) nowhere is there a formal method to detect "intelligent design". The only formal method there is rules out pure randomness as a cause for something. So by identifying a "highly improbable function" it mean "highly improbable to occur by pure randomness." It does not rule out necessity or mechanism as a cause.JT
December 15, 2008
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FCSI is something that is complex, is information, and this information specifies something else that has a function. The only place it exists in nature is in life and it readily exists in the world as a result of intelligent activity. Within life, there has never been any proven demonstration of the amount of FCSI increasing by any amount other than for trivial increases. Or in other words there has never been any proven examples of increased functionality except for very small increases. No novel complex functional increases in capability have ever been attributed to natural processes. If anyone disagrees then they should put forward their examples because that is what the debate is all about. We can see how many of the examples meet the criteria of increased functional novel systems through natural means. There have been hypothesized examples of some things happening with single celled organisms in the past such as the formation of eukaryotes and hgt but is there any pattern of anything happening in terms of novel complex functionality arising with multi-celled organisms due to natural reasons. And if there is a pattern what was this natural mechanism? FCSI and its creation is at the heart of the debate and if one does not understand that, then they really cannot participate in the debate.jerry
December 15, 2008
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The "prime mover" is the "uncaused cause" concept. Free will, to be meaningful, must also be a prime mover, an uncaused cause. If not, it is simply machine-like behavior programmed by cause, manufacturing effect. Even if it is unpredictable and complex, without the uncaused cause, prime-mover aspect, "free will" is simply a phrase and set of equivocations meant to hide the inevitable conclusion that humans are programmed machines. Unfortunately for the materialist, any argument against a prime-mover free will begins with an a priori assumption that a prime-mover free will exists, is listening to the argument, and can make a free-will decision and choice to accept the conclusion or not and formulate a meaningful rebuttal. All such arguments are essentially hypocritical and self-refuting.William J. Murray
December 15, 2008
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Well, I've been gone for awhile. Maybe I should have stuck around since I was the topic. bFast wrote [1]:
I would venture to explain the issue to JT with a term I learned here on ID — FSCI, function specifying complex information, or functionality specifying complex information. I like this term better than Dembski’s CSI because it is more narrow, it is a subset of CSI. The number pi seems to me to meet the definition of CSI, but it does not specify something that functions, so it is not FSCI.
Heres' the problem as I see it - CSI is a very exclusive set as it is. As WmAD explains, the set of compressible strings is incredibly minute. Compressibility seems like sort of a nondescript unspecial attribute, but find a string like that and supposedly its a very very rare attribute indeed. So how does using FSCI solve any inherent problems at least in the Design Inference if there are already inherent problems with it using CSI, (which is an extremely small set as it is). Actually the only problem with the Design Inference maybe how its misinterpreted. All it can do is rule out a kind of metaphysical randomness (I believe I've seen someone else use that term before.) You don't get an automatic free pass from this to conclude "design". And this doesn't change by alluding to FSCI instead (whatever FSCI is precisely - all we know is that its a somewhat smaller set of CSI what was already an extremely small set.)JT
December 15, 2008
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Mike, It is very interesting. It is also interesting to note that these effects are virtually undetectable after a short period of time. As the Nobel Prize winner Roger Sperry notes:
Given six months to a year for recovery, and in the absence of other major brain pathology, a person with complete section of the forebrain commissures would go undetected as a rule in a casual first meeting or conversation or even through an entire routine medical exam.
You are also citing design principles of chips that are vastly inferior to the design principles of the brain. If you can't see that, then I can't help you.TCS
December 15, 2008
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Notedscholar, You said:
Anyway, I think that the problems with Intelligent Design have much more to do with it’s failure to count as science than anything else.
I think ID is science. I don't understand how it isn't. Archeologists cite intelligence as the source of languages and codes within ancient artifacts. This is considered scientific. They'd be laughed at if they suggested it was the result of wind, rain and erosion. What's different with ID? Scientists have found complex molecular machines and highly complex coding (far more advanced than man's current computer coding). If archeology is scientific, it seems to me, that ID follows logically as scientific. Plus, ID even uses the scientific method. Go here for a page on it: http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1154 Keep it cool man, DomomanDomoman
December 15, 2008
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Another excellent video on Joe, the split-brain patient, this time hosted by Alan Alda for Scientific American Frontiers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfGwsAdS9Dcribczynski
December 15, 2008
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There is an excellent video demonstration here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMLzP1VCANo You won't be able to believe what you see!MikeKratch
December 15, 2008
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TCS, do you have an opinion on corpus callosotomy? That would appear to speak to the exact issues you raise in your post regarding issues of personality and intellect. Does the transmitter also "split in two" as in some cases each hemisphere does not have knowledge of what the other does. It's a very interesting subject.MikeKratch
December 15, 2008
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TCS, Well it would appear to be on-topic for the thread, but if you'd rather not share that's fine by me. I'm not sure what your point is regarding the processor. You say "cut in half" but in your example a brain was "cut in half" but nobody says that a simple "cut" was all that was required. In both cases there would have to be substantial preperation. And I was really pointing out that if the processor was dual or quad core it could lose half it's capacity and still function. You should also know that "cutting chips in half" is done to reverse engineer them, in fact modern secure chips have features that prevent this happening. So forgive me for over egging the point. Are you saying that it is beyond the capacity of human technology to take a chip such as the Q6600, with 4 cores, remove 2 cores and still retain a functioning chip? If the same level of effort, time and money was applied as is to chopping peoples brains in half it could not be done? AMD sell failed quad core chips as tri-core chips you know if only one core is dead. Sure, they don't cut it out, they just turn it of. Same with multicore graphics cards.MikeKratch
December 15, 2008
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TCS, I'm glad you mentioned hemispherectomies, because there is another procedure, the corpus callosotomy, that disconnects the two hemispheres so that epileptic seizures cannot spread from one to the other. The hemispheres are only disconnected; neither is removed. Unlike the hemispherectomy, this procedure can be performed on adults as well as on children. The results are fascinating, and they provide strong evidence against the idea of an immaterial mind: 1. In experiments, it's possible to pass information to one hemisphere but not the other. The left hemisphere literally doesn't know what the right hemisphere knows, and vice-versa. If there were a single, immaterial mind, it would know what both hemispheres know. Clearly, this doesn't happen. Do dualists want us to believe that the immaterial mind happened to split in two at the moment the corpus callosum was cut? This fascinating video of a split-brain patient demonstrates the phenomenon. 2. The left hemisphere controls the right half of the body, and vice-versa. When the connection between the two is cut, this results in bizarre behaviors indicating the presence of two "wills" in the same skull. One patient was seen to pick up a cigarette with her right hand and place it in her mouth. Her left hand plucked it out and threw it away before the right hand could light it. In another case, a man attacked his wife with one arm while defending her with the other. If a single, immaterial mind were running the show, this would not happen.ribczynski
December 15, 2008
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Mike, I doubt you truly are interested here. Also, those issues are beyond the scope of ID. Those are theological issues, which ID does not speak to. As to your processor, find the best computer/electrical engineer you can to cut it in half for you. I'll be awaiting the results.TCS
December 15, 2008
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As to the "two way" then,
If we adopt the modified metaphor, another question arises: which functions are performed by the base station (soul), and which by the radio (brain and body)?
I'm interested in your opinion there in that case. It's an interesting point rib brings up. Allow me to start: soul - good/evil brain and body - creates specific plans to do good/evilMikeKratch
December 15, 2008
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TCS, I imagine if it was done with the same level of preperation and understanding as when the operation is performed on human brains it would be fine. After all, I don't expect you to perform a hemispherectomie before you can use it in a argument!MikeKratch
December 15, 2008
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Mike @35, Go ahead and try to do that as carefully as you can. I am eagerly awaiting the results. I don't have a problem with a 2-way relationship.TCS
December 15, 2008
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TCS, Then it follows from what you say that there must be a two way relationship between the radio and the source of the signal? So more like CB radio then?
Try taking your CPU out of your computer, cutting it in half, and putting half of it back in.
As it happens, the CPU in my PC is quad core. In fact, it's two dual core CPU's pasted together (q6600). So cutting it in half (if done carefully!) would not noticably affect it's performance in most everyday tasks! :)MikeKratch
December 15, 2008
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JT: Nide yise bu mingbai le. Oops, sorry. For just a second I forgot that I was "obliged to write in English." ;-)SteveB
December 15, 2008
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smodercia @25 wrote:
I am surprised to not see The Mind and the Brain by Jeffery M. Swartz cited in this debate. He makes a very strong argument for the reality of human “volition” as William James called “free will”. He also indicates that materialists are still thinking in terms of Newtonian physics rather than Quantum physics. Some brains can’t seem to get their minds around that most difficult reality.
It's been awhile since I've read Schwartz's book, but it certainly is a fascinating read. If I remember correctly, he makes more of a case for "free won't"--the mind's ability to veto the outcome of deterministic processes in the brain. He cited research to back up his assertions on this point. I think you really ought to consider the case of hemispherectomies in this argument. The hemispherectomy was a procedure performed mostly in the 1960s and 1970s which was performed to help relieve epilepsy. In this procedure, an entire hemisphere of brain (half of the brain) was removed. While there were often some long-term effects on controlling movement in one side of the body, studies showed that these individuals retained their personalities, cognitive and intellectual abilities. Of course this depends on the age of the patient at the time that the surgery is performed. Apparently, the unaffected hemisphere is able to adapt and take over the functions of the hemisphere that has been removed. So, half of the brain is removed, and the individual maintains their personality and intellectual abilities. To me, this supports an ID perspective, because from a naturalistic evolutionary perspective, there would be no need to maintain the personality and intellect. Furthermore, you would need to have a population of severely brain damaged individuals for many, many, generations in order to result in this capacity. All that's needed from a Darwinian perspective is simply the ability to procreate. There is no need to maintain the personality and the intellect. Try taking your CPU out of your computer, cutting it in half, and putting half of it back in. The complexity of the mind and the brain points to design at a level that is beyond human technological sophistication.TCS
December 15, 2008
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smordecai, Perhaps, however from what I understand experments designed to see this effect (random events being influenced by an observer being present or not, or attempting to change the results, or not) have been inconclusive, or negative. There are even many "test your PSI abilities" websites out there, that claim to test your ability to influence a random number generator or similar mechanism. I've taken this tack as you said
the observer influences probabilities
If I have got the wrong end of the stick please correct me if so. What probabilities?MikeKratch
December 15, 2008
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MikeKratch - The Mind as the observer influences probabilities. But this is not the forum for a discourse in Quantum Physics, I would encourage reading Swartz to catch the relevance.smordecai
December 15, 2008
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Dear IDists, It's possibly JT was using the word "I" simply in a functional sense. It's a common piece of rhetoric. Anyway, I think that the problems with Intelligent Design have much more to do with it's failure to count as science than anything else. I've discussed some of these problems here: http://sciencedefeated.wordpress.com/2008/12/11/the-troubled-waters-of-intelligent-design/ Feel free to read and comment! NSnotedscholar
December 15, 2008
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As these two persons have just learned, the fastest way to get yourself booted off this site is to make personal attacks against the moderators.Barry Arrington
December 15, 2008
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Now Barry may say this is a denial of consciousness, but I take Searle at his word: to explain something is not to deny it. I take him as it his word as well but you have to remember what words actually mean. Materialists are constantly borrowing the language of "dualism" to argue for materialism, then insisting that their language is not what they really meant in some way. As the philosopher David Stove noted they often deny sentience and intelligence to man and yet attribute it to inanimate objects, natural "selection" or even genes. E.g.
A person is certainly a believer in some religion if he thinks, for example, that there are on earth millions of invisible and immortal non-human beings which are far more intelligent and capable than we are. But that is exactly what sociobiologists do think, about genes. Sociobiology, then, is a religion: one which has genes as its gods. [....] ...consider the following representative statements made by leading sociobiologists. Richard Dawkins, easily the best-known spokesman for this movement, writes that 'we are...robot-vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes,' and again that we are 'manipulated in order to assure the survival of our genes.' The same writer also says that 'the fundamental truth [is] that an organism is a tool of DNA.' (That is, of the DNA molecules which are the organism's genes.) Again, Dawkins says that 'living organisms exist for the benefit of DNA.' Similarly, E.O. Wilson, an equal or higher sociobiological authority, says that 'the individual organism is only the vehicle [of genes], part of an elaborate device to preserve and spread them....The organism is only DNA's way of making more DNA.' I will mention in a moment some other passages in which sociobiologists imply that genes are beings of more than human intelligence and power, but that implication should be clear enough already from the passages just quoted. According to the Christian religion, human beings and all other created things exist for the greater glory of God; according to sociobiology, human beings and all other living things exist for the benefit of their genes. [...] It must be admitted that sociobiologists sometimes say other things which are inconsistent with statements like the ones I have just quoted. Dawkins, for example, sometimes protests that he does not at all believe that genes are 'conscious, purposeful agents.' But these disclaimers are in vain. Of course genes are not conscious purposeful agents: everyone will agree with that. Where sociobiologists differ from other people is just that they also say, over and over again, things which imply that genes are conscious purposeful agents; and agents, at that, of so much intelligence and power that human beings are merely among the tools they make and use. (Darwinian Fairytales: Selfish Genes, Errors of Heredity and Other Fables of Evolution by David Stove: 248-249)
Similarly if one says that neurobiological processes in the brain "cause" consciousness while insisting that we must be blind to intelligently designed events unfolding in biology then all you've really done is reiterate the ignorant materialist view of "blind processes" again. Note that it's based on a pseudo-Newtonian view of the world that Newton himself wouldn't agree with and which quantum mechanics may undermine. If you blindly insist that things are "explained" by a causal history of blind processes then you may be being willfully blind to the possibility of the causal impact of mind or language or information on matter now. (Despite what some seem to think this is not something that can be settled by the simple-minded use of stigma words like "magic" and so on.)mynym
December 15, 2008
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Norman Doering is no longer with us.Barry Arrington
December 15, 2008
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