Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Compromise?

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Dr. Sewell’s post below generated a fairly heated debate, but it is not my purpose to address the substance of his claim or his opponents’ responses.  Instead, I was fascinated by a couple of the commenters’ calls for “compromise” between the ID camp and the NDE camp. 

As a general matter, “compromise” is a very fine thing, and if there were more of it the world would doubtless be a better place.  But it seems to me that compromise does not fit in well with the quest for scientific truth.  If two mutually exclusive theories purport to explain the same data, one of them may be right and the other one wrong, or they may both be wrong, but no one suggests we should seek a “compromise” between the two theories.  Should Copernicus have compromised with Ptolemy?  What does it even mean to “compromise” between two mutually exclusive scientific theories?  Because compromise is such a fine thing should we continue to employ epicycles for certain aspects of our cosmology even though we know they are false? 

In human relations compromise is possible because there is usually a middle ground.  When I negotiate a contract, my client might agree to accept less of “X” in exchange for more of “Y” and reach an agreement that does not give him everything he wants, but which he will nevertheless sign, because it is “good enough” and accomplishes his goals. 

But science does not work that way.  Scientific conclusions rarely run along a continuum.  They are discrete functions.  Yes/No True/False  In other words, there can be no compromise between truth and error because there is no middle ground between them.  Therefore, pleas for “compromise” in the ID/NDE debate don’t make sense to me.

Comments
The question is intentionality versus randomness. Can something be kind of intentional? If I haphazardly toss a basketball in the direction of a basket and it goes in, is that kind of intentional? Could this describe how how life came about? No.prhean
December 17, 2007
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"If two mutually exclusive theories purport to explain the same data, one of them may be right and the other one wrong, or they may both be wrong, but no one suggests we should seek a “compromise” between the two theories." No kidding. You've misunderstood my call for compromise. I was thinking more along the lines of what bFast put forth, or coming to some type of agreement as to how and where ID should be taught. If Darwinists refuse to allow it to be addressed in the science classroom, we need to find other venues or really push the IDEA clubs (I don't know how many there are at the moment) in which ID advocates can teach it honestly. At the same time, if Darwinists were to follow bFast's approach to the ToE, professors wouldn't have such a fight on their hands. PZ and other professors have added ID to their biology curriculum and they are ripping it to shreds. Compromise would be allowing ID a venue somewhere on the campus so that students (if interested) could take a course or be involved in a club where they could ask questions of an ID advocate and compare it to what their biology prof. has told them. Call it a freaking "religious" club for all I care. Heck, JJ says it's religion, so teaching ID under the guis of religion should fly. When students sign up, tell them they definitely DON'T NEED THEIR BIBLES...a few science textbooks will do. btw, does anyone know off hand how many IDEA Clubs there are and where they are located?Forthekids
December 17, 2007
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jerry wrote: ID should embrace these aspects of NDE and not look like fools by reflexively rejecting it in total. - *Someone* has to be skeptical of every little part of NDE. How many assumed that the Ketterwell experiments were legit?ari-freedom
December 17, 2007
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BarryA, I was not suggesting we alter our own beliefs or writings on ID, the compromise I proposed was in how this very controversial issue should be dealt with in the public schools. Wouldn't you be very happy if evolution were taught this way now, wouldn't that be a huge improvement over the current sad state of affairs? Would you really insist, at this point in time, that our schools be required to teach ID? I don't believe anyone at Discovery takes this point of view. I had some further comments, but I see bFast (#3) expressed them much better than I could have.Granville Sewell
December 17, 2007
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also see the note in Spetner p 199 "An environmental cue may be capable of eliciting any one of a set of variations, each leading to a phenotype adapted to a slightly different environment. Natural selection would then "fine tune" the population to the specific environment, whereas the cue would provide the "coarse tuning." In this case, the set of possible variations would be nonrandom, whereas the specific variation within the set would occur by chance. But since all variations within the set would appear in the population, the final result would be nonrandom.ari-freedom
December 17, 2007
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The point I made on another thread a week or so ago was that NDE should be basically part of the design paradigm. It allows a species to adapt to various environments and enriches the variety of life and enables species not to go out of existence when the wrong environment comes along. This is truly great design. Dembski and Wells in the Design of Life show how it took time for the English sparrow to adjust to the US and only through the process of natural selection did it then thrive in various parts of the country with varieties different by region and from the native England. ID should embrace these aspects of NDE and not look like fools by reflexively rejecting it in total. Our point should not only be the utility of NDE to enrich life through selecting varieties available in the gene pool but also include a strong emphasis on its limitations.jerry
December 17, 2007
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if there is compromise it would be in the sense that designers do employ evolutionary algorithms.ari-freedom
December 17, 2007
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But it seems to me that compromise does not fit in well with the quest for scientific truth. Well said, Barry. It would be like compromising on the freezing point of water.tribune7
December 17, 2007
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My point here being that I believe my alma mater is more interested in appearing credible to the mainstream educational system than being true to truth. I believe this approach to be little more than a mix of appeasement and lack of confidence in the science.selectedpete
December 17, 2007
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BarryA, I believe that there is a totally viable compromise between the neo-Darwinian, naturalistic, position of mainstream science, and the telic, ID position. Methodological naturalism says, approximately, "let us find out how much can be explained by purely natural forces." Philosophical naturalism says, "purely natural forces is all that there is." I propose that the scientific community maintain a clear differentiation between methodological naturalism and philosophical naturalism. This differentiation has become painfully fuzzy of late. If science were to honestly hold to methodological naturalism alone, and to actively avoid the arguably religous position of philosophical naturalism, then the scientific community would frequently and proudly declare "we don't know". If the scientific community said, "origin of life? We don't know. We have been working at it for decades, centuries, and have not figured it out." rather than "We don't know -- yet, but we're really close!!" then the scientific community would be holding to methodological, but not philosophical naturalism. If the scientific community said, "random mutath and natural selection appear to be valid forces within nature" then go on to say, "but huge questions remain such as how organs developed, how complex mechanical systems developed, and phenomenon such as the cambrian explosion" then the scientific community would be holding to position of methodological but not philosophical naturalism. If the scientific community ostricized zealots like Dawkins who have obviously stepped into the camp of hard religion, then I would not be bothered by them ostricizing IDers who try to go beyond the "methodological naturalism" mandate that the community holds to. If the scientific community, in the spirit of holding to methodological naturalism rejected all telic explanations, but if the scientific community were quick to say "we don't know, we may never know, it may be that we don't know because a non-methodological answer is the right answer" then I would not feel a need to challenge this methodological naturalistic position of the scientific community. As such, the weakness RM+NS would be public fare, and ID would be a purely philosophical. No problem, compromise.bFast
December 17, 2007
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BarryA and Dr Dembski - I would be interested to know your thoughts on the writings of such as Dr Faulkner at Point Loma Nazarene University who seek to compromise between macroevolution and ID(I have my own thoughts here, but would like to know yours). I am alumni of that small institution, and I find it particularly interesting that they eagerly promote their version of compromise, but are very closed minded to other influence (I do not know their attitude toward Dembski's writings). It seems I can get better discourse from the local SDSU for that matter.selectedpete
December 17, 2007
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The basic elements of NDE explain a lot of the minor changes in species variety but fail to explain the big things. Natural selection and genetic drift and maybe even the occasional mutation affect population genetics. This is the message in the first few chapters of the Design of Life by Dembski and Wells (that is far as I have read so far.) So what ID objects to is the broad extrapolations of NDE to macro evolution and specifically the Blind Watchmaker Thesis. If Dembski, Wells and Behe accept these basic capabilities of NDE then I see no reason why they should just be part of the ID package. What we should focus on is the real issue of evolution, the ability of the genome to generate novel capabilities through naturalistic processes such as the 47 mechanism that Allan MacNeill listed a month or so ago until some proof has been provided.jerry
December 17, 2007
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