Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Computational Intelligence and Darwinism

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

This UD post got me to thinking. I do that from time to time.

On the subject of computational intelligence I have some minor credentials, including a Silver Medal at the first Computer Olympiad in London, sponsored by David Levy of chess fame. You can access the final results of my research and efforts in computational artificial intelligence (AI) here:

If you have a computer with sufficient memory and disk space you can explore the only perfect-play endgame algorithm ever invented for the game of checkers (known as draughts in the UK).

It was my exploration into computational AI that initially caused me to have doubts about the creative powers of the Darwinian mechanism, which I now consider to be a transparent absurdity as an explanation for almost anything of any significance, and certainly not as an explanation for human intelligence.

Here’s why.

Computer programs that play games like checkers and chess involve two primary algorithms, a brute-force tree search and a leaf-node static evaluator. The tree search says, “If I move here, and the opponent moves there, and I move thus…” Unfortunately, the exponential explosion of possibilities means that the search must eventually be terminated. At that point a static positional evaluator must be invoked. This requires designing heuristics that can evaluate the position with no further search.

The problem is that these heuristics are difficult to devise and encode, and they are often wrong, because of tactical considerations that lurk beyond the horizon of the search and the fact that the heuristics can have unanticipated side-effects.

A human player might say, “Hmmm, if I move here, this will create a positional weakness from which the opponent cannot possibly recover.” There is no way to encode such knowledge, which comes from human experience and positional recognition.

The other problem is that computer programs like mine do not play against the opponent; they play against themselves. The tree search assumes that the opponent sees everything it does, which in a human-versus-human game is not the case. In one game my program played against a grandmaster human, the human was in deep trouble, and he told me so. The computer was considering the move the human feared, which would lead to a very difficult, razor-thin draw. But the program searched so far ahead that it found the draw, assumed the human would see it as well, and played a move that gave the program a few more meaningless points, letting the human off the hook.

All attempts at computational language interpretation have been dismal failures for similar reasons. Even the best spell- and grammar-checkers are astronomically stupid:

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

The point is: With all our human intelligence, technology, and inventiveness, how can anyone who is still in contact with reality believe that random accidents engineered our brains and minds?

Comments
CJYman, Can you clarify then what their maths does support? That is, does it explain how ID works?zeroseven
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
06:33 PM
6
06
33
PM
PDT
Onlookers: It is clear that AIG is unwilling to see what others are doing or saying in their own terms. He consistently has put words and concepts in our mouths that do not belong there, and has then used caricatures to try to deride persons. I have already provided adequate information, directly and by links to sort out the real issues that have been raised above. Where my problem is, is that I now have no confidence that AIG will be responsive to evidence or to reason. If he is unwilling to acknowledge so basic a set of facts as the mathematical arguments used to make the positive case for design or the fact that directed contingency is a commonly observed pattern of cause and effect in our observation [including posts in the thread] or that -- regardless of debates on our ultimate nature -- we are empirically recognisable as intelligent based on patterns of observable behaviour, etc, then I have good reason to believe that I am dealing with an unfortunately ideologised, closed mind that because of its a priori commitments will reject corrections. I have therefore simply put some basic points on record and linked or pointed to where more can be seen. If you are open to it. When I therefore saw AIG's onward responses, and the tone involved, it has simply underscored that it makes little sense to spend time and effort to try to go through a point by point corrective to AIG's misconceptions and caricatures above. AIG: Sorry, but you have and have had more than adequate information to correct your many errors of fact and conception, also of portrayal of others. And, you have a basic duty of care to be accurate, fair and reasonable. Unless I see reason to believe you are being reasonable, I have no reason to try to argue with a closed and unfair mind. Sorry if that is painful, but that is what you have left me little alternative but so say in so many words. Good night. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
06:30 PM
6
06
30
PM
PDT
KF; As you keep appealing to "onlookers", I feel I am entitled to express this opinion: I can understand it is frustrating to have your arguments so effectively countered by aiguy, but I really wish you would lay off the insults and ad hominem remarks.zeroseven
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
06:07 PM
6
06
07
PM
PDT
aiguy: "As I’ve now made clear three times, all of the math that Dembski bothers with concerns evolutionary theory, not ID theory. He uses math to try and demonstrate that evolutionary theory cannot account for what it claims to explain (speciation and the creation of biological structures). " So then apparently, you've exposed your ignorance three times since Dembski and Marks do not purport to use math to show that evolutionary theory can not account for what it claims to explain. Their results, after all, are based on the very operation of evolutionary algorithms which can be programmed to produce whatever it is the programmer wishes. You should actually read their work, especially since Dembski no longer argues, in principle, against a Darwinian theory of evolution. Instead, he sees even that type of evolution to be inherently teleological. You should read what he has recently written for EIL. The measurements that EIL is concerned with provide support for the hypothesis that law+chance absent foresight will not produce evolutionary algorithms. The earlier measurements (FSCI) are more general in their application and in our repeat and uniform experience are connected to what we experience as foresight (but of course you'll neither negate nor confirm this as I've seen countless times before). Furthermore, neither FSCI nor evolutionary algorithms are seen to be produced absent foresight in the causal chain. Furthermore, the math that we are referencing deals with a chance assemblage of laws and provides evidence that a chance assemblage of laws (one without any end target -- "blind" if you will), will produce either FSCI nor an evolutionary algorithm. Put the math together with our uniform and repeat experience and you get an inference no less as effective and strong as the inference to past evolution or the Big Bang. But, you should already know and understand this.CJYman
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
06:06 PM
6
06
06
PM
PDT
KF,
You may well find this exchange helpful to clarify many of the issues in this thread.
Translation: KF has no rebuttal or argument, and so resorts to linking to others.
Much moreso, sadly, than what is going on above. (Right now I am not much inclined to go chasing in circles over and over again in thee hope that a spiral that will make some progress will emerge.)
Translation: KF could not respond to my questions regarding how we might test for intelligence, or any of my other points. So he's giving up.
This outline may help you clarify a bit of the background to the above commentary.
PPS: For some reason I forgot to mention the very first design theory technical work in the context of mathematical and scientific (in particular thermodynamics, cf my always linked APP 1]considerations, TMLO [fat download]. Remember,this is 25 years ago, so the talking point on “no math” has to be held a willfully malicious, slander-driven lie by those who are primarily responsible [After all Dembski is a mathematician, cf his personal site and onward links to the Evo Info lab], and an irresponsible failure to check basic facts by those who propagate it.
As I've now made clear three times, all of the math that Dembski bothers with concerns evolutionary theory, not ID theory. He uses math to try and demonstrate that evolutionary theory cannot account for what it claims to explain (speciation and the creation of biological structures). There is no math at all that anyone has presented in defense of the hypothesis that ID theory presents, viz. that some conscious being existed who created first life.aiguy
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
05:42 PM
5
05
42
PM
PDT
Onlookers: You may well find this exchange helpful to clarify many of the issues in this thread. Much moreso, sadly, than what is going on above. (Right now I am not much inclined to go chasing in circles over and over again in thee hope that a spiral that will make some progress will emerge.) GEM of TKI PS: This outline may help you clarify a bit of the background to the above commentary. PPS: For some reason I forgot to mention the very first design theory technical work in the context of mathematical and scientific (in particular thermodynamics, cf my always linked APP 1]considerations, TMLO [fat download]. Remember,this is 25 years ago, so the talking point on "no math" has to be held a willfully malicious, slander-driven lie by those who are primarily responsible [After all Dembski is a mathematician, cf his personal site and onward links to the Evo Info lab], and an irresponsible failure to check basic facts by those who propagate it.kairosfocus
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
05:20 PM
5
05
20
PM
PDT
UB, I think I did respond, actually, with a definition suited to our purposes in the present discussion. There are other senses of the word of course (including "unimportant" and "irrelvant"!). But as for a more general definition suited to a discussion of metaphysical ontology, I'll pass for now, at least until I understand better the context of your interest.aiguy
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
05:18 PM
5
05
18
PM
PDT
AIGuy, "You ask a good question, but not directly relevant to any of my arguments." Yes, I introduced the question as a side issue. So what do you propose as immaterial, and how do you define it? If you would prefer not to answer the question, that is your perogative.Upright BiPed
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
04:41 PM
4
04
41
PM
PDT
UB, You ask a good question, but not directly relevant to any of my arguments. My argument here is that our experience confirms that intelligent behavior invariably arises from complex physical entities - things we can observe which are rich in FSCI. In other words, these are the exact same things that ID (e.g. Stephen Meyer) claims to explain. So for our purposes here I would say that an immaterial intelligence would be something that is not a complex FSCI-rich physical mechanism. Perhaps it would share ontological status with the rest of the observable universe and perhaps not, but it would not meet Meyer's description of a physical machine rich in FSCI.aiguy
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
04:37 PM
4
04
37
PM
PDT
Aiguy, Not to butt in here, Just a side issue... What exactly do you propose as immaterial and how do you define it?Upright BiPed
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
03:16 PM
3
03
16
PM
PDT
avocationist,
Oh aiguy! Of course we know what an intelligent entity is! We may say a house, but you do not know what type of house, or its appearance and therefore you say the term has no meaning? Intelligent entity is a broad category, but you are miffed because this entity is undefined. This is the first of several spots where I find your arguments quite simply unreasonable. If we are not going to be reasonable, then what are we doing?
Not only am I being reasonable, but I am quite correct. Please read my reply to KF and tell me, if you can: 1) What an operationalized definition of intelligence is that we can use to test all of the example entities I proposed -OR- 2) Tell me how we are supposed to conduct science when our explanations are utterly subjective? How can we decide if A causes B when we can't even agree on what A is in the first place? There are no scientific theories in which the causal explanation offered does not have a operationalized definition. NONE.
I’m sorry to be so impatient but I have seen that this argument, in which the ID inference is refused because the entity is not known – it is an endless argument because the resistance is – well, why don’t you tell me what it is? I’d like to know.
Read this carefully: I am not asking about the identity of the entity. Do you understand that? What I am asking is what you could possibly be talking about when you say "entity". Is it a force? A spirit? An animal? An atom? A dog? An unknown property of matter or energy? An unknown property of an unknown substance? Part of space-time geometry? What I am asking is how you can characterize this whatever it is in way that we can decide if it exists or not! Is there anything you can say about it that we can compare to our observations and see if it is consistent or not? What can this thing do? What can't this thing do?
So far as I can see, there are two choices here. Either life forms needed the input of a directed intelligent will or they are the products of blind processes.
"Blind" is a metaphor, not an obsevable property. You don't mean "blind" as in "cannot use eyes to interpret electromagnetic energy in the visible spectrum", right? In that case, what do you mean by "blind processes"?
You seem to posit a third one, an unconscious God. You may elaborate.
What do you mean by "God"? You said it meant "self-existing". Now you seem to be changing your story... what does "self-existing" have to do with consciousness?
ID does not exactly assume that dualism is true.
If ID does not entail dualism, then ID makes no sense. This is because ID necessarily separates intelligence from "blind processes", which is a dualistic assumption.
AIG: And I am not asking about the designers “identity” AVO: Why, yes you did.
Why, no, I didn't.
Ah, so you do have some beliefs…it seems you think there may be some sort of god principle, but it is more like a force without personal consciousness? Is that right?
I have no idea! What is a "god principle"???
AIG: I’m simply pointing out that if you are going to claim to have a scientific explanation that posits a cause for some phenomenon, you actually have to say what it is AVO: No, we don’t.
Fine, that's just fine. Feel free to explain everything, then, with undefined terms. Do you know what explains protein folding? Portanity! How about the origin of the physical constants? Mislemtans were responsible - I'm sure of it! What - you don't know what portanity and mislemtans are? Who cares? According to you, we needn't explain what our causes are - we just have to believe we're right!
And isn’t it you who says people should admit when they don’t know something?
YES. So please admit you don't know any better than I do what accounts for protein folding, the origin of the physical constants, or the origin of life.
Of course there is science behind the study of what unguided nature can produce and what an intelligent entity with a will can do.
Unguided nature? When nature is "guided", what is it guided by???
And by the way, there is nothing unscientific about believing mind is not confined to body. Just because science has not yet figured out the energetic pathways of ESP does not mean I haven’t seen it at work.
Yes, if you want to base ID on evidence of paranormal phenomena then I have no problem with that. But please be explicit that this is what you are doing. Most ID proponents reject that outright (I've asked them!).
You are right that the cause is inferred to be an intelligent one, but that we have very little else to say. It’s a start though.
No, it isn't a start. It says precisely nothing, nada, zero. It is meaningless in the context of ID. If you disagree, please answer the first question in this post.
As to my paragraph about soul and body, it was not supposed to be scientific, it was in answer to your saying you did not know what the word being means.
Well it wasn't scientific. So please don't pretend that a scientific explanation can refer to a "being", because you can't say what it is you mean.
I don’t think frontloading could have been done unconsciously.
We all have our subjective opinions and hunches of course. What we don't have is any science to inform us on the matter.
Oh, by the way, I have the solution to mind existing apart from mechanism. This of course is a problem. But as I said the other night, the entire cosmos is one unified thing, and it is all God. There is nothing outside of God and God is in everything, because everything arises out of God. So for God to manipulate matter is not action at a distance.
I do like philosophy, but I'm not interested in discussing philosophy or theology on this forum. Thanks anyway.aiguy
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
02:46 PM
2
02
46
PM
PDT
KF,
Demonstrably false and disingenuous from one who should know better
Ah, no better way to start your debate rebuttal than with an ad hominem insult of course. I've not suggested anyone here is being disingenuous, and you shouldn't either. But of course you do.
AIG knows or should know that the design inference is premised on the observed patterns of causation linked to among other things digitally coded, functionally specific, complex information; which is a quantitative concept, as even the 101 level Weak Argument Correctives here from 25 on would at once demonstrate.
In other words, the "design inference" is based on nothing except the same analogy that ancient philosophers made when they noted complex form and function in both nature and in the things people made. No math or science required - just an analogy, that's all it is.
He knows or should know of inter alia the work of Durston, Chiu, Abel and Trevors, as well as Marks and Dembski et al.
None of these people work on anything having to do with demonstrating that a conscious entity existed who was capable of creating the first living cell, of course. Instead they are preoccupied with showing that current biological theories fail to account for biological complexity (and I agree with that already).
Moreover, all of this is premised on refusing to acknowledge a patent fact: directed contingency exists, and it often leaves characteristic, recognisable and often measurable signs.
These "measurable signs" are the result not of directed contingency, but rather of living things. Unless you can tell us how to detect this "directed contingency" scientifically you really don't have a leg to stand on. This is the second time I'm asking you to tell us how to distinguish "directed contingency" from any other cause in our experience. Unless you can actually tell us how to test for this, I will assume you concede the point.
So, we need to open our horizons to possible intelligences beyond ourselves.
I'm completely open to the possibility; unfortunately we don't have any evidence that any extra-terrestrial life forms have ever existed, nor any evidence that anything except life forms can be intelligent.
It sure did not credibly arise form blind chance and mechanical necessity acting on a keyboard, in the shape of a pounding chimp or otherwise.
Uh, no KF - I am not a chimp. I assure you I am a human being, just like you are. The text you observe on your screen has been arranged by human beings. I'm surprised you could not make this inference yourself, based on our experience of what things can type in English.
But, while AIG exemplifies an intelligence in action, he wishes to pretend that since we cannot produce a definition to suit his criteria of “operationality,” such intelligence is not real.
I appreciate the compliment, but I cannot take credit for devising the methods and practices used in science. Operational definitions are of course fundamental to science - they are merely definitions that can be grounded in our uniform and repeated experience.
Actually, “there are more things in this world than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
In modern parlance, this quote would read "there are more things in this world than are dreamt of in science". And that is of course true! Science cannot answer all questions, and it currently is unable to answer questions regarding the origin of life and the origin of the universe. You can imagine various answers, and you can generate philosophical arguments regarding what sorts of ideas appeal to you on grounds of plausibility, aesthetic appeal, etc. What you are unable to do is characterize what you think the cause of life was in a way that we test against our uniform and repeated experience.
What we are actually seeing is the implicit back-door imposition of a priori materialism
I'm not a materialist, so you're about as wrong about this as you can be.
An intensional definition, also called a coactive definition, specifies the necessary and sufficient conditions for a thing being a member of a specific set. Any definition that attempts to set out the essence of something, such as that by genus and differentia, is an intensional definition.
You are unable to provide an intensional definition of intelligent agency in a way that independent observers can apply your definition with reliable agreement to any arbitrary entity in question. If you disagree, then just tell us what this definition is. Tell us, KF, once and for all: What is a definition of intelligent agency that I can apply to anything - a rabbit, a rock, a chess-playing computer, a dolphin, a termite, a thundercloud, an amoeba, a river, an atom, a star, a weather system, a worm... What single intensional definition of "intelligence" can I use to test each of these things and the outcome will unequivocably tell all fair observers if this thing is intelligent or not?
For instance, energy is defined on what it does, not what it essentially is
Every cause in science is defined by what it does, and not what it "essentially is"! If you can't say what something does (and just as importantly what it does not do) then you can't offer it as an explanation for anything else of course!
Looking at a highly relevant casein point, life has no operational, standardised defition, because life is too complex for that. Life is defined on identified examples and family resemblance.
Yes, of course! But no scientist has ever used the concept of "life" to explain anything! "Life" is not a scientific cause of observed phenomena! Living things are what biologists study, not a concept they offer to explain what they see!
So, is biology not a science [and is to be contemptuously dismissed to he nether regions], because it is the study of life, which cannot meet AIG’s clever little rule?
I'm afraid you aren't being quite clever enough. Biology studies and tries to explain life; it does not offer "life" as the explanation for anything. Cognitive science (including my field, AI) studies and tries to explain intelligence; it does not offer "intelligence" as the explanation for anything.
This, sadly, does not speak well of AIG’s behaviour.
Ah yes - you both open and close with insults. Feeling vulnerable, GF? If not, how about you just stick to the debates rather than attacking the messenger?aiguy
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
02:22 PM
2
02
22
PM
PDT
Oh aiguy! Of course we know what an intelligent entity is! We may say a house, but you do not know what type of house, or its appearance and therefore you say the term has no meaning? Intelligent entity is a broad category, but you are miffed because this entity is undefined. This is the first of several spots where I find your arguments quite simply unreasonable. If we are not going to be reasonable, then what are we doing? I will use less quotes, because the system here is unbearably cumbersome, typing all that mess out. Other forums have better systems. So you see, you are using the old argument that we know nothing about the entity. I thought you were different...of course the nature of the entity is important. But ID is an inference, based upon logic, patterns, math, science, that tells us such an intelligent entity has been at work. Even if that entity is Satan himself and we are all damned forever, we must follow the evidence, not our emotions. I'm sorry to be so impatient but I have seen that this argument, in which the ID inference is refused because the entity is not known - it is an endless argument because the resistance is - well, why don't you tell me what it is? I'd like to know.
Yes, it is a matter of dispute whether or not mind exists apart from physical processes. Nevertheless you blithely assume that this dispute has already been resolved when you say intelligent is “opposed to blind processes”! What you are assuming is that dualism is true and physicalism is false, and that intelligence does not arise from mechanism.
I did not say "is opposed" I said "as opposed." So far as I can see, there are two choices here. Either life forms needed the input of a directed intelligent will or they are the products of blind processes. You seem to posit a third one, an unconscious God. You may elaborate. ID does not exactly assume that dualism is true. ID simply says that observed patterns in nature would require an intelligent entity to produce. It is a very narrow slice. It is NOT metaphysical. You must be reasonable or how can we talk? Stick to the facts!!! Yes, most ID people are metaphysicians, and yes the implication at least leads to a real possibility of a metaphysical clue. Why are you angry at clues?
And I am not asking about the designers “identity”
Why, yes you did.
because I don’t believe the cause of life is something that has an “identity” (a name, for example) any more than the gravity has an “identity”.
Ah, so you do have some beliefs...it seems you think there may be some sort of god principle, but it is more like a force without personal consciousness? Is that right?
I’m simply pointing out that if you are going to claim to have a scientific explanation that posits a cause for some phenomenon, you actually have to say what it is
No, we don't. And isn't it you who says people should admit when they don't know something? Of course there is science behind the study of what unguided nature can produce and what an intelligent entity with a will can do. What use is denying the obvious? Of course, nature as a whole setup, the universe and chemisty, it also looks like a designed system. But that designed system does certain things, and does not do others. I see nothing wrong with your points here, that we should look deeper into nature and not take it for granted. But you are also saying that we cannot study the difference between natural processes and intelligent minds, which is to lay a ridiculous barrier in the study of the evolution of life. Why do you want to do that? And by the way, there is nothing unscientific about believing mind is not confined to body. Just because science has not yet figured out the energetic pathways of ESP does not mean I haven't seen it at work.
The term is understood as a general descriptive label, but not as a characterization of a scientific cause or explanation.
You are right that the cause is inferred to be an intelligent one, but that we have very little else to say. It's a start though. ID does not say the cause has an identity. Perhaps every entity does...I'm not sure. People in general make a lot of anthropomorphic assumptions about God, yes.
The question is not who the cause of life is, but what.
Hmm...I could agree. I myself am interested in both as regards myself. What am I? Who am I? As to my paragraph about soul and body, it was not supposed to be scientific, it was in answer to your saying you did not know what the word being means. I don't think frontloading could have been done unconsciously. Yes, you are right that other ID proponents may disagree with me on the division of philosophy and science. Or maybe not. It may be that they have to operate within the confines as understood by others. My understanding is that nothing is outside the realm of science. But they have to argue with the academics, who will not have such a thing. Oh, by the way, I have the solution to mind existing apart from mechanism. This of course is a problem. But as I said the other night, the entire cosmos is one unified thing, and it is all God. There is nothing outside of God and God is in everything, because everything arises out of God. So for God to manipulate matter is not action at a distance.
!! The option of course is to say “I just do not know”. I’m very comfortable with that… I can’t understand why everyone doesn’t admit this.
It is a common malady however. You see, humankind is in an awful position. We are terrestrial angels, highly intelligent and yet we are here in a state of darkness, not knowing who we are, what we are, where we are, or what the future holds. Reality is maya. What to do? People like to have answers, and when they as a group can agree on some answers, it pushes back the darkness just a little. When someone doubts, it raises the spectre of the possibility of their own delusion, and they get angry. Hence they say that God will be angry with the doubter. But that is an anthropomorphic projection. It is they who are angry.
Everybody has a different definition of “God” of course.
I'm pretty sure mine is the only valid one.
Your definition of God, “self-existence”, doesn’t imply sentience.
No. It is the most fundamental of requirements. Existence. As opposed to, you know, nothingness.
No, there is no science, no math, and no logic behind ID whatsoever!
What Kairosfocus said.avocationist
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
02:05 PM
2
02
05
PM
PDT
Onlookers: Classic,saddening, case of self-referential absurdity:
“Directed contingency” is not defined operationally, and so cannot be of use in science. You fail to describe what it is you believe is directing anything of course… might it be immaterial mind that transcends physical cause?
This is of course a case of a contingent text string, part of a message of 2121 128-state ASCII characters in contextually responsive [though rhetorically distractive] English, i.e it lies on an island of function in a config space of ~2,47*10^4469, which is vastly more than the 10^150 or so states the 10^80 or so atoms of the universe will have across their 10^25 s thermodynamic lifespan, i.e we have prima facie evidence that the search resources of our cosmos would be fruitlessly exhausted on a random search to arrive at the text or something sufficiently similar to function in its place. But, there that text is, produced in at most a couple of hours. Why? It sure did not credibly arise form blind chance and mechanical necessity acting on a keyboard, in the shape of a pounding chimp or otherwise. No. On observation and experience, it is intelligence, of whatever ultimate nature, that directed the contingent string to a desired configuration. Following Marks and Dembski, we can even quantify the active information that led to the capacity to overperform the predictable effect of a random walk based search. But, while AIG exemplifies an intelligence in action, he wishes to pretend that since we cannot produce a definition to suit his criteria of "operationality," such intelligence is not real. Actually, "there are more things in this world than are dreamt of in your philosophy." 9What we are actually seeing is the implicit back-door imposition of a priori materialism, as is addressed here at basic level for reasonably open-minded people. Those who are willfully obtuse and thus selectively hyperskeptical, through the fallacy of the sadly ideologised, closed mind, can only be exposed as self-referentially absurd. In this case,as refusing to recognise that behind every precising verbal definition tied to operational concepts is a cluster of examples that allow us to identify the relevant concepts and define their borders; though using our own intelligence -- thus we are our own examples. And to deny what we are and need to develop the desired definition, is plainly self-defeatingly illogical and absurd. ) But, let us pause to give a word or two on definition,a s this seems to be the rhetorical tactic being played just now. So, we call the usual hostile witness, Wiki, on Definition:
An intensional definition, also called a coactive definition, specifies the necessary and sufficient conditions for a thing being a member of a specific set. Any definition that attempts to set out the essence of something, such as that by genus and differentia, is an intensional definition. An extensional definition, also called a denotative definition, of a concept or term specifies its extension. It is a list naming every object that is a member of a specific set . . . . One important form of the extensional definition is ostensive definition. This gives the meaning of a term by pointing, in the case of an individual, to the thing itself, or in the case of a class, to examples of the right kind. So you can explain who Alice (an individual) is by pointing her out to me; or what a rabbit (a class) is by pointing at several and expecting me to 'catch on'.
It is obvious that definitions on matters of observation, regardless of debates on the matter,, are in the end forced to work by first focussing on examples adequate to identify the concept and t6o set tight enough borders for practical work. For instance, energy is defined on what it does, not what it essentially is: that which is capable of being converted into physical work is or contains energy; which we then quantify by looking at cases on standardised units, arriving at 1 Joule = 1 Newton-metre. (In turn the unit of force depends on recognising what a push or pull is -- notice how we are now back at what we recongie, and by how much push will move how much mass with what acceleration.) Looking at a highly relevant casein point, life has no operational, standardised defition, because life is too complex for that. Life is defined on identified examples and family resemblance. Wiki again:
Life (cf. biota) is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes (biology) from those that do not,[1][2] either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate . . . . Since there is no unequivocal definition of life, the current understanding is descriptive, where life is a characteristic of organisms that exhibit all or most of the following phenomena:[14][16][17] 1. Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature. 2. Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life. 3. Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life. 4. Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. 5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present. 6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis. 7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.
So, is biology not a science [and is to be contemptuously dismissed to he nether regions], because it is the study of life, which cannot meet AIG's clever little rule? Obviously not. AIG's question-begging, selectively hyperskeptical a priorism is thus exposed for all to see. Going back to intelligence and directed contingency, we know that text strings [a relevant example] can take up various configs, and we can distinguish three different categories with Abel and Trevors, random sequence, orderly and [typically algorithmically] functional sequence. This can be quantified in functional bits or fits as Durston et al -- including the same T & A -- have for 35 protein families, by extending the commonly used concept of average number of bits of information per symbol, H. At a much simpler level, simply observing contingency [1 if high], functionality [1 if present in a context . . . remember if DNA strings don't work an animal etc dies, probably as an embryo] and number of bits equivalent used, and multiplying, then asking whether the number of functioning bits in use exceeds about 1,000 bits, is enough to quantify for a lot of practical purposes. Now, simply looking at basic easily accessible information would have sufficed to correct the many errors and fallacious declamations above, but the homework to get it right was not done. This, sadly, does not speak well of AIG's behaviour. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
12:40 PM
12
12
40
PM
PDT
Onlookers: Demonstrably false and disingenuous from one who should know better:
No, there is no science, no math, and no logic behind ID whatsoever! All of these books with all of this talk of math and biology are actually talking about evolutionary theory, not ID! One of the many mistakes that ID makes is that focussing on the shortcomings of current theories somehow constitutes evidence for their particular theory, which is that some sort of conscious entity existed prior to life and somehow created the first living cell.
AIG knows or should know that the design inference is premised on the observed patterns of causation linked to among other things digitally coded, functionally specific, complex information; which is a quantitative concept, as even the 101 level Weak Argument Correctives here from 25 on would at once demonstrate. He knows or should know of inter alia the work of Durston, Chiu, Abel and Trevors, as well as Marks and Dembski et al. Moreover, all of this is premised on refusing to acknowledge a patent fact: directed contingency exists, and it often leaves characteristic, recognisable and often measurable signs. Further, the other commonly observed causal factors do not leave those signs, per massivge observation. So, on recognising an empirically reliable causal patern and itrs signs, we have aperfect epistemic right to infer from such signs to causes, when we did not directly observe teh causes. Notice, we have focussed on observables, where they can be found, and we have inferred form sign to signified causal factor, as opposed to the source of that factor. For, that is what the signs warrant. In short, we can credibly establish that 'tweredun. There is an onward interesting whodunit question, but that is secondary to what has been established. So, we have a case where we know thsat the routine source of design is intelligence. We have empirical evidence that points to such action in places and times where we were notthere to do it. So what, we have no good grounds to infer that we or creatures like us exhaust the set of possible intelligences. And, as noted, we have empirically based evidence that here points beyond us. So, we need to open our horizons to possible intelligences beyond ourselves. When critique has to depend on misrepresentation, that is telling us it is driven by ideology, not truth-seeking. Sad, really. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
11:51 AM
11
11
51
AM
PDT
KF,
On understanding that design is directed contingency,...
"Directed contingency" is not defined operationally, and so cannot be of use in science. You fail to describe what it is you believe is directing anything of course... might it be immaterial mind that transcends physical cause? Of course that is what you mean. That's fine... but it is merely one philosophical stance on the mind/body problem, not some feature of observable truth or settled science. We have no way of testing if any particular event is an instance of "directed contingency" or not. You may wax philosophical (and you do!) about this and all manner of other things, and I have no objection to that. Just don't pretend you are doing anything connected to science.
...and that intelligence is: “capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn” . . .
But there are many problems with this definition in the context of ID of course. How might you go about testing the hypothesis that the Designer of Life is capable of learning? Perhaps the Designer was unable to learn anything, but rather already knew everything It needed to know to design life already. In that case the Designer would not meet your own criterion for being an intelligent entity. How is it you might determine that the cause of life did or did not "comprehend ideas"? For that matter, how do you know that Darwinian evolutionary processes do not "comprehend ideas"? Don't give me a philosophical argument here... tell me what experiment I can run or what concrete observation I can make that will decide the matter. Of course there is none. How might you demonstrate the fact that ID's Designer can solve problems in general? Perhaps the only thing that the Designer was capable of doing was creating the biological structures we see, and is unable to do anything else at all. You have no way of showing that there exists a Designer who has any of these attributes. You are free to imagine such an entity, of course, but don't pretend that your beliefs have any support in what we know from experience and observation.aiguy
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
11:27 AM
11
11
27
AM
PDT
Onlookers: Re AIG et al: You have now discovered why ID is completely empty as a theory of anything . . . If wishes were horses,beggars would own vast stables. On understanding that design is directed contingency, and that intelligence is: “capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn” . . . We may easily see that our experience of ourselves as intelligent purposeful creatures is a precondition of the life of reason, and of science existing. So, the attempt to dismiss such as vague and empty is self-referentially absurd. In any case, despite many strawman arguments, ID is about inferring from the observed patterns and traces of design on observationally known cases to characteristic signs of design. Thence, to infer on cases where similar signs are evident but we could not have or simply did not directly observe, that on the Darwin-Lyell uniformity principle, that the items showing the signs were also designed. There is none so blind as he who is determined not to see what is not friendly to his preferences. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
10:25 AM
10
10
25
AM
PDT
avocationist,
AIG: You have now discovered why ID is completely empty as a theory of anything – because it doesn’t actually refer to anything that can cause life or anything else. AVO: You exaggerate! Technically, perhaps you are correct that “an intelligence” doesn’t refer to anything, but we know that what is meant is an ‘intelligent entity.’ That is an awfully slim reason to say that ID is empty!
Actually, we do not what is meant by an "intelligent entity" except in the most subjective, non-scientific way. If I told you that I have an intelligent entity in my laboratory and that this entity was not a living organism, then you wouldn't know one single thing about this entity that we could verify in any way. You couldn't tell me one specific thing this thing could do, or couldn't do. You couldn't tell me if it could read a book or bake a cake or speak French or write a computer program. There is no definition for the word "intelligent entity" in science at all, because the term cannot be operationalized (i.e. cannot be expressed in terms of observable traits).
But you see it is the intelligence, as opposed to blind processes, that is at issue. Whether the intelligence requires a meaty brain or not is a matter of dispute.
Yes, it is a matter of dispute whether or not mind exists apart from physical processes. Nevertheless you blithely assume that this dispute has already been resolved when you say intelligent is "opposed to blind processes"! What you are assuming is that dualism is true and physicalism is false, and that intelligence does not arise from mechanism. You may be right and you may be wrong, but philosophers haven't managed to answer this question yet and they've been working on it for a few thousand years now. ID (as espoused by its leading proponents) assumes that dualism is true. This is a metaphysical - rather than a scientific - position, but ID folks tend to downplay that :-)
In a funny way, you are using the “who designed the designer” argument, as well as the argument that we must identify the designer if we are to posit that one must exist. But as you know, ID only asserts what can be deduced from what we know and stops there.
I am absolutely not talking about either of those things, no. I am not asking "who designed the designer" because I am not talking about the origin of the designer at all. And I am not asking about the designers "identity" because I don't believe the cause of life is something that has an "identity" (a name, for example) any more than the gravity has an "identity". I'm simply pointing out that if you are going to claim to have a scientific explanation that posits a cause for some phenomenon, you actually have to say what it is you are offering as an explanation. Saying "the cause was complex" doesn't aid our understanding at all. Neither does saying "the cause was interesting" or "the cause was happy" or "the cause was blue" or "the cause was intelligent". None of these are explanations, because they all fail to mention what the cause was supposed to be.
Sigh. But I have already explained that Meyer did not mean that the intelligence that created life forms is part of our experience. He meant only that it is our experience that it takes intelligence to create CFSI and unguided nature never does. That is all.
But I have already explained that there is no science behind the assumption that there is a known distinction between "intelligence" and "unguided nature". What is it you think "guides" nature that allows humans to be intelligent? Mind? You are again assuming that metaphysical mind/body dualism is true. That's just fine, but completely unscientific.
Yes, I indeed do mean an intelligent entity and I am sure there are many examples of terms not being quite linguistically correct but understood by all.
The term is understood as a general descriptive label, but not as a characterization of a scientific cause or explanation. Imagine I wrote a computer program that did something that seemed intelligent (like designed an electronic circuit) and somebody asked me how it worked. If I explained "It works by means of intelligence" they would laugh, because I haven't actually told them anything that explains how the circuits got designed. The word "intelligence" is like the word "athleticism". It is a general, subjective label that we use to describe various things human beings (and perhaps other animals) can do. But there is no objective meaning to these terms.
I guess the reason in this case is that ID bends over backwards to make clear that the intelligent entity’s identity is unknown or unprovable at this point and not necessary to the inference.
I've already explained that just saying the cause has an "identity" reveals the anthropormorphic assumptions underlying ID. The question is not who the cause of life is, but what. If it turns out to be a person of some sort that has a name, that would be another story... but we don't know that.
Really? Well, I consider myself a being, a composite being with a body, a brain, a personal history of this body and a soul, and I do not think that this body is the only one my soul has occupied.
All fine and good. All as completely unscientific as any set of beliefs could possibly be.
Re ID positing an intelligence, of course, you know, it is within ID to posit frontloading or panspermia or alien terraformers, but in the end it just begs the question of where the information comes from.
Each of these are different theories. To lump them all under "ID" is nothing but equivocation, intended to make it difficult to argue against ID. Nobody writing books on ID believes in pansermia or extra-terrestrial engineers. As for front-loading, yes this is another hypothesis, but the confusion there is that the front-loader may not have been a conscious entity either.
So you think ID is metaphysics?
Yes of course it is.
The problem here is that there is one reality, and it is not divided up into physical and metaphysical, science and spirit.
But ID proponents like Meyer and Dembski disagree with you. They believe there is a division between science on one hand and theology/philosophy on the other hand. They claim that ID is scientific and not metaphysical. That is why I say they are wrong.
The reason science is limited is that we have not yet discovered ways to inquire into and study metaphysics.
That's right. As we learn more, some metaphysical questions become informed by science. But currently the mind/body problem remains the realm of philosophy, and since ID rests squarely on one particular solution to the mind/body problem (i.e. that mind exists apart from mechanism and could have been responsible for the first CSI-rich organisms), then ID is metaphysics. (Real scientific theories do not rest on the truth of one answer or another to the mind/body problem).
But people are working on it. With our eyes, we see a certain amount of the electromagnetic spectum. But our instruments have discovered more, beyond what we see. They are real but we can’t see or feel them directly. It’s the same with metaphysics. It is silly for people to get too wrapped up in these labels which are about moving targets. Science is the study of reality.
Science is distinguished by appeal to observations, whether directly or with instruments. We have scientific answers to some questions, but many other questions cannot be resolved empirically. The existence of a conscious being prior to first life is among those.
Nice! I like it. You are a real thinker. Me, I choose to make God everything, because I see no other option.
!! The option of course is to say "I just do not know". I'm very comfortable with that... I can't understand why everyone doesn't admit this.
Why? Because the self-existent cannot be avoided, and self-existence is THE definition of God, and all things can only come of one source, (the self-existent)and all things are therefore connected, arising out of God.
Everybody has a different definition of "God" of course. Your definition of God, "self-existence", doesn't imply sentience. Sentience (consciousness) is one of the attributes that define God for some other people, though. This is why I'm a non-cognitivist... I don't believe anybody really knows what they're talking about when they talk about "God". There is no clear referent for the term at all.
But they do use science/math and also logical deduction.
No, there is no science, no math, and no logic behind ID whatsoever! All of these books with all of this talk of math and biology are actually talking about evolutionary theory, not ID! One of the many mistakes that ID makes is that focussing on the shortcomings of current theories somehow constitutes evidence for their particular theory, which is that some sort of conscious entity existed prior to life and somehow created the first living cell. No science, no math, no logic... just the ancient philosophical design argument disguised as science.aiguy
August 12, 2010
August
08
Aug
12
12
2010
08:51 AM
8
08
51
AM
PDT
aiguy, By the way, I don't remember if I said this, but since I do find the idea of the nature of God and the divine mind so mysterious, I am not at all convinced that the designer is God or is one entity. There could surely be other types of entities besides ourselves and God.avocationist
August 11, 2010
August
08
Aug
11
11
2010
10:13 PM
10
10
13
PM
PDT
aiguy,
You have now discovered why ID is completely empty as a theory of anything – because it doesn’t actually refer to anything that can cause life or anything else.
You exaggerate! Technically, perhaps you are correct that "an intelligence" doesn't refer to anything, but we know that what is meant is an 'intelligent entity.' That is an awfully slim reason to say that ID is empty!
I didn’t say brains were sufficient, but they are apparently necessary...
But you see it is the intelligence, as opposed to blind processes, that is at issue. Whether the intelligence requires a meaty brain or not is a matter of dispute. In a funny way, you are using the "who designed the designer" argument, as well as the argument that we must identify the designer if we are to posit that one must exist. But as you know, ID only asserts what can be deduced from what we know and stops there.
That is why Stephen Meyer is wrong when he claims that ID posits a cause that is known to our experience,
Sigh. But I have already explained that Meyer did not mean that the intelligence that created life forms is part of our experience. He meant only that it is our experience that it takes intelligence to create CFSI and unguided nature never does. That is all.
If by “an intelligence” you mean “something which is intelligent”, then you really need to say what it is you are talking about.If “intelligence” means simply “able to produce CSI”, then ID theory is pretty silly: “ID holds that CSI in biology was created by something able to produce CSI”. Duh!
Yes, I indeed do mean an intelligent entity and I am sure there are many examples of terms not being quite linguistically correct but understood by all. I guess the reason in this case is that ID bends over backwards to make clear that the intelligent entity's identity is unknown or unprovable at this point and not necessary to the inference.
I’m not sure what you mean by “being”
Really? Well, I consider myself a being, a composite being with a body, a brain, a personal history of this body and a soul, and I do not think that this body is the only one my soul has occupied.
No, you misunderstood me. Stephen Meyer claims that ID points to a cause within our experience. Apparently you and I agree that he is wrong.
Probably I should not even paste this as I have already stated what Meyer meant, which means he thinks that our experience of what intelligence does is a clue to a cause outside our experience. Re ID positing an intelligence, of course, you know, it is within ID to posit frontloading or panspermia or alien terraformers, but in the end it just begs the question of where the information comes from.
I do not object to the notion that mind is somehow involved in the universe in ways we don’t understand and that mind had something to do with the creation of the universe, or of life. I do strongly object to the notion that any of this can be supported by empirical evidence.
Well, you know, since I am attracted to this sort of thing, I find what evidence there is, and I think it is real and growing.
Of course it is THE question metaphysically! And metaphysics is not at all silly. However, metaphysics is also not science. ID proponents go to great lengths to insist that ID is not metaphysics, but rather is science. That is what I argue against.
So you think ID is metaphysics? The problem here is that there is one reality, and it is not divided up into physical and metaphysical, science and spirit. It's all here together. The reason science is limited is that we have not yet discovered ways to inquire into and study metaphysics. But people are working on it. With our eyes, we see a certain amount of the electromagnetic spectum. But our instruments have discovered more, beyond what we see. They are real but we can't see or feel them directly. It's the same with metaphysics. It is silly for people to get too wrapped up in these labels which are about moving targets. Science is the study of reality.
I’m an atheist not because I believe in some sort of “materialism” that precludes God. Rather, I am a non-cognitivist – a mysterian – who believes we just have no conception of the truth of these ultimate metaphysical questions.
Nice! I like it. You are a real thinker. Me, I choose to make God everything, because I see no other option. Why? Because the self-existent cannot be avoided, and self-existence is THE definition of God, and all things can only come of one source, (the self-existent)and all things are therefore connected, arising out of God.
What I argue against in these forums is the idea that scientific inquiry leads to the conclusion that some entity with human-like consciousness and mental abilities could somehow have existed and created life, the universe, and everything. I have no objection to people who choose to believe this, but I object to those who claim they know it’s true by means of science.
And yet you have almost reasoned yourself there... But they do use science/math and also logical deduction. It is the implication, of where the clue may lead to, that suggests a possible metaphysical answer, but ID itself - no. It is indeed science, math, logic.avocationist
August 11, 2010
August
08
Aug
11
11
2010
10:11 PM
10
10
11
PM
PDT
avocationist,
I see you are right, but when you said an intelligence creates, it makes sense. But when you said a complexity creates, it doesn’t. ??
It makes no more sense to say "an intelligence" does something than it does to say "a complexity" does it. Both of these terms refer not to things-in-themselves, but rather to properties of other things. Intelligence does not exist per se, just as complexity does not exist per se. In order to make sense you must say what it is you are referring to that you find intelligent or complex. You have now discovered why ID is completely empty as a theory of anything - because it doesn't actually refer to anything that can cause life or anything else.
AIGUY: You can say that, but I could surely say that the actions of brains is the key attribte needed to build CSI. AVO: No, brains are not sufficient. We see that many animals have brains, but their intelligence is not adequate. So the brain that creates CSI must be of sufficient intelligence.
I didn't say brains were sufficient, but they are apparently necessary (at least some physical information processing mechanism seems necessary to be able to think).
The only agent we know capable of CSI is us! Although to be sure animals do create things which nature does not, such as bird nests.
Of course other animals (which I see as part of nature of course) create CSI - in termite mounds, bird bowers, bee hives, beaver dams, etc. In our experience, complex physical living things create CSI.
Yes, but the problems we are trying to solve, one of which is how anything can exist at all, point to something a bit outside our experience.
I agree. That is why Stephen Meyer is wrong when he claims that ID posits a cause that is known to our experience, which ID calls "an intelligence" or "an intelligent agent". As we've discussed, there is no such thing as "an intelligence", just as there is no such thing as "a complexity". Nor can we say precisely what "intelligent agency" means in the abstract. Rather, we know only that living things create other living things, and that some living things also create artifacts of complex form and function.
When we see that life forms must have been initiated by an intelligence,...
There you go again. If by "an intelligence" you mean "something which is intelligent", then you really need to say what it is you are talking about. Obviously we can call anything capable of producing CSI intelligent, but that doesn't help us explain anything. If "intelligence" means simply "able to produce CSI", then ID theory is pretty silly: "ID holds that CSI in biology was created by something able to produce CSI". Duh!
...and that intelligence must have not had a meat body, we can come to the conclusion that it is reasonable to posit the possibility of a different sort of being.
I'm not sure what you mean by "being" but yes, I think we do not know what the cause of life was.
It is like a clue. You seem to think that as a default we should assume that there is nothing outside our experience, when the data actually seem to point instead to the expectation that there is.
No, you misunderstood me. Stephen Meyer claims that ID points to a cause within our experience. Apparently you and I agree that he is wrong.
So just to be perfectly clear, I do not see a disembodied mind as not being physical, or two such minds communicating as being outside the conventional universe or processing information that is not physical. There is really no such thing as physical or spiritual. There is only reality, and it is all one.
That's all fine. Whatever ontological beliefs you may have, I think we agree that if ID is going to posit something intelligent that created life, it is speculating about the existence of a sort of thing that is outside of our uniform and repeated experience, contra Meyer and and many other ID proponents.
Yet there are many interesting books that are asking the questions that need to be asked. Our instruments are not yet adequate and yet have already proven the unseen microworld. And we know that we have not gotten to the bottom of reality so we know there is more. This is a very reasonable expectation and you dismiss it as silly imagination.
You again misunderstood me. I do not think imagining these things is silly. My point is just that we are in fact imagining them, rather than finding them in our experience as Meyer et al try to have us believe. I do not object to the notion that mind is somehow involved in the universe in ways we don't understand and that mind had something to do with the creation of the universe, or of life. I do strongly object to the notion that any of this can be supported by empirical evidence.
It surprises me how people don’t see what a fundamental question this is. It is THE question, metaphysically.
Of course it is THE question metaphysically! And metaphysics is not at all silly. However, metaphysics is also not science. ID proponents go to great lengths to insist that ID is not metaphysics, but rather is science. That is what I argue against.
Continuing from above, although you deny it below, matter cannot pop itself into existence. Physics seems to state (I am no physicist, just a lay person) that things pop into existence, but when I inquired further, I find that they speak of a quantum foam.
Yes. Matter is much weirder than we can imagine.
Well a quantum foam may as well be the void of pure potential of Buddhism. Physicists see particles pop in and out of existence, but they have no idea how and from where! It is VERY premature to announce that particles pop into existence from a state of true nothingness.
Right - nobody claims to understand quantum physics conceptually, even though the math agrees with experiment perfectly. It's all very mysterious.
What we experience is that all things are caused in an endless chain, yet there must be something at the root of reality which is quite different, that is not caused, i.e., self-existent. Otherwise, its turtles all the way down.
So it seems we don't disagree about too much here. I am not a theist, but otherwise I have no objection to anything you've said. I'm an atheist not because I believe in some sort of "materialism" that precludes God. Rather, I am a non-cognitivist - a mysterian - who believes we just have no conception of the truth of these ultimate metaphysical questions. What I argue against in these forums is the idea that scientific inquiry leads to the conclusion that some entity with human-like consciousness and mental abilities could somehow have existed and created life, the universe, and everything. I have no objection to people who choose to believe this, but I object to those who claim they know it's true by means of science.aiguy
August 11, 2010
August
08
Aug
11
11
2010
07:55 AM
7
07
55
AM
PDT
aiguy,
You’re mistaken. “Intelligence” is a noun, and so is “complexity”. The related adjectives would be “intelligent” and “complex”.
I see you are right, but when you said an intelligence creates, it makes sense. But when you said a complexity creates, it doesn't. ??
You can say that, but I could surely say that the actions of brains is the key attribte needed to build CSI.
No, brains are not sufficient. We see that many animals have brains, but their intelligence is not adequate. So the brain that creates CSI must be of sufficient intelligence.
In our experience, every intelligent agent invariably is a complex physical living thing.
The only agent we know capable of CSI is us! Although to be sure animals do create things which nature does not, such as bird nests.
I’m saying that we have no evidence that intelligent beings can exist without complex physical bodies. In our experience, intelligence is a property of living organisms.
Yes, but the problems we are trying to solve, one of which is how anything can exist at all, point to something a bit outside our experience. When we see that life forms must have been initiated by an intelligence, and that intelligence must have not had a meat body, we can come to the conclusion that it is reasonable to posit the possibility of a different sort of being. It is like a clue. You seem to think that as a default we should assume that there is nothing outside our experience, when the data actually seem to point instead to the expectation that there is.
Moreover, I believe minds need to process information, and as far as we know information is invariably associated with states of physical systems.
Well, here is where I run into difficulties on a forum such as this. I find it difficult to discuss nonphysical reality as I don't see there being such a thing. As I said, either a thing exists or it doesn't. What does it mean to exist? To exist is to be not nothing. Whereas I believe in God, I don't separate the physical from the spiritual. I believe this is an old convention from ages past in which such an idea seemed necessary to explain spirit. So if I think that our consciousness survives the death of the body, that does not mean it is truly nonphysical. Yes, I could agree a mind needs to process information. Yet I see no contradiction in a mind without a heavy body. So just to be perfectly clear, I do not see a disembodied mind as not being physical, or two such minds communicating as being outside the conventional universe or processing information that is not physical. There is really no such thing as physical or spiritual. There is only reality, and it is all one.
We can imagine, or choose to believe, any number of things outside of our experience.
Yet there are many interesting books that are asking the questions that need to be asked. Our instruments are not yet adequate and yet have already proven the unseen microworld. And we know that we have not gotten to the bottom of reality so we know there is more. This is a very reasonable expectation and you dismiss it as silly imagination.
The existence of anything at all cries out for explanation. It would great if we could explain everything, but we can’t.
It surprises me how people don't see what a fundamental question this is. It is THE question, metaphysically.
If there is no soul or mind but only matter, then matter is God, being self-existing. I don’t know what this means.
Continuing from above, although you deny it below, matter cannot pop itself into existence. Physics seems to state (I am no physicist, just a lay person) that things pop into existence, but when I inquired further, I find that they speak of a quantum foam. Well a quantum foam may as well be the void of pure potential of Buddhism. Physicists see particles pop in and out of existence, but they have no idea how and from where! It is VERY premature to announce that particles pop into existence from a state of true nothingness. Besides, there is no such thing as nothingness. The cosmos already exists and it is full of stuff. To say that particles pop into existence is like a baby looking at blinking Christmas tree lights and supposing that each blink is a brand new light. What we experience is that all things are caused in an endless chain, yet there must be something at the root of reality which is quite different, that is not caused, i.e., self-existent. Otherwise, its turtles all the way down.avocationist
August 10, 2010
August
08
Aug
10
10
2010
10:25 PM
10
10
25
PM
PDT
avocationist, Here is how to make a quote: (blockquote)Your text goes here(/blockquote) Except replace the parentheses with angle brackes ''.
AIGUY: But nobody has ever ever seen complexity created by intelligence per se,any more than anyone has ever seen complexity created by complexity per se. Both “intelligence” and “complexity” are properties of other things, not things-in-themselves. AVO: A strange argument. First, complexity and intelligence are not words in the same category. Intelligence is a noun, but complexity is an adjective.
You're mistaken. "Intelligence" is a noun, and so is "complexity". The related adjectives would be "intelligent" and "complex".
So, we see the actions of intelligence, and we can surely say that intelligence used with a will is the key attribute needed to build CSI.
You can say that, but I could surely say that the actions of brains is the key attribte needed to build CSI. As far as the evidence goes, we're both right.
It has been said we cannot know the things in themselves. If that is what you are saying, it seems to have little meaning to our problem.
No, I'm not brining up ultimate problems in epistemology. I'm just pointing out the obvious: In our experience, every intelligent agent invariably is a complex physical living thing.
So perhaps you are asking in the case of an intelligent designer, what other attributes would this entity have, if not a body?
No, I'm not asking that. I'm saying that we have no evidence that intelligent beings can exist without complex physical bodies. In our experience, intelligence is a property of living organisms.
And basically, what I get from reading your posts, is that you find the idea of a mind without our type of body hard to imagine. Why is that?
Because in our experience, minds are invariably associated with bodies. Moreover, I believe minds need to process information, and as far as we know information is invariably associated with states of physical systems.
Why should there only exist that which we already know about and see with our senses on this planet?
No reason. All sorts of things may exist that we don't know about. We can imagine, or choose to believe, any number of things outside of our experience.
The existence of anything at all cries out for explanation.
It would great if we could explain everything, but we can't.
If there is no soul or mind but only matter, then matter is God, being self-existing.
I don't know what this means.
And if matter is self-existing it is very different from what we think; fundamentally at odds with basic common sense: things cannot pop into existence from a prior condition of nothingness.
It is quite certain already that matter is very different from what we think and fundamentally at odds with common sense. We also know that things do indeed pop into existence from a prior condition of nothingness. If you aren't aware of these things, you need to read about physics.
So yes, your mind resists but there is really no choice. Something very other is at the root of existence.
So you say.aiguy
August 10, 2010
August
08
Aug
10
10
2010
01:49 PM
1
01
49
PM
PDT
aiguy, OK, with much difficulty I was able to get something in blockquotes, but cannot figure out how to end it. So I still can't use it. "But nobody has ever ever seen complexity created by intelligence per se,any more than anyone has ever seen complexity created by complexity per se. Both “intelligence” and “complexity” are properties of other things, not things-in-themselves. A strange argument. First, complexity and intelligence are not words in the same category. Intelligence is a noun, but complexity is an adjective. So, we see the actions of intelligence, and we can surely say that intelligence used with a will is the key attribute needed to build CSI. It has been said we cannot know the things in themselves. If that is what you are saying, it seems to have little meaning to our problem. "What we see create complexity are living things that have complex physical bodies and have various physical and mental abilities." So perhaps you are asking in the case of an intelligent designer, what other attributes would this entity have, if not a body? And basically, what I get from reading your posts, is that you find the idea of a mind without our type of body hard to imagine. Why is that? Why should there only exist that which we already know about and see with our senses on this planet? See how things are really run from the inside with a wondrous micro-reality so removed from our clumsy senses that until the invention of the microscope it was absolutely unimagined? And that micro-reality we have not gotten to the bottom of yet, it being so subtle and elusive. And consider the electromagnetic spectrum. The existence of anything at all cries out for explanation. If there is no soul or mind but only matter, then matter is God, being self-existing. And if matter is self-existing it is very different from what we think; fundamentally at odds with basic common sense: things cannot pop into existence from a prior condition of nothingness. So yes, your mind resists but there is really no choice. Something very other is at the root of existence. Then, too, if you want God to have a body, why shouldn't it be the entire cosmos? "What I object to is pretending that we can explain these things by imagining a human-like mind could be responsible when we have no reason to think a human-like mind could exist prior to human-like brains." Well, it is a funny thing. I think there is quite a lot of evidence that mind is independent of brain, but others say there is not. I am however not at all sure what sort of consciousness the creator has. It may indeed by very different. I suspect lesser beings may have created life.avocationist
August 9, 2010
August
08
Aug
9
09
2010
11:12 PM
11
11
12
PM
PDT
Axe talks about this for evolved biological resistance – this is restricted to a local search resulting in one or two amino acid changes in the enzyme. The problem of evolving novel folds still remains.
It's just as big a problem for a designer. The fastest possible way to compute folds is to let the proteins do it. There are no computational shortcuts taht are faster, and it is unlikely that any computational algorithm will ever be faster than a quantum computer. And assuming you set up a laboratory to force the production and testing of novel proteins, you still have the problem of testing their fitness in a living ecosystem.Petrushka
August 8, 2010
August
08
Aug
8
08
2010
11:08 AM
11
11
08
AM
PDT
Avocationist,
I have not been able to figure out how to do quotes here.
Use the "blockquote" tags.
It would take something outside our experience to create matter and life forms. If an intelligence did it, it would have to be different than us. That is the implication. but I am merely pointing out that I don’t think you have found Meyer in error because I don’t think he intended to say anything other than that we see complexity created by intelligence,
But nobody has ever ever seen complexity created by intelligence per se, any more than anyone has ever seen complexity created by complexity per se. Both "intelligence" and "complexity" are properties of other things, not things-in-themselves. What we see create complexity are living things that have complex physical bodies and have various physical and mental abilities.
...and therefore we must assume that it took an intelligence to create the life forms initially. The implications disturb you, but that is for you to ponder.
You are completely mistaken to imagine that the implications disturb me. What disturbs me is this specious argument that refies intelligence as though it is something that exists independently of the life forms that exhibit intelligent behavior. To say "an intelligence created life" is as meaningless as saying "a complexity created life". Nothing at all follows from either of these statements.
But when I said why call it immaterial, I was not referring to you. It is a general question, why do we refer to “spiritual” things as nonmaterial? How do we know they are nonmaterial? Do we know everything about the cosmos and its energies?
No, we clearly do not know everything about the cosmos, the mind, or matter and energy. There are deep mysteries that we do not understand. What I object to is pretending that we can explain these things by imagining a human-like mind could be responsible when we have no reason to think a human-like mind could exist prior to human-like brains. Of course there may be other sorts of "minds" that are not human-like, but we know precisely nothing about what that might mean. In other words, may be nothing at all in common between our human minds and the cause of life. Maybe the cause of life had a very different sort of consciousness, or maybe it wasn't conscious at all. We have no way of knowing.aiguy
August 8, 2010
August
08
Aug
8
08
2010
09:44 AM
9
09
44
AM
PDT
p.s. Could we design an A.I. that could determine how stupid a human being could be? (Like the guy who just killed himself in the international Sauna competition.)alan
August 8, 2010
August
08
Aug
8
08
2010
09:13 AM
9
09
13
AM
PDT
veilsofmyer #38: "You seem to be suggest an intelligent designer could iterate over protein folding geometry space to select working proteins “in his head”, but could not design a natural process that does the same thing." Beside the response by cbburn re. Douglas Aex's work - are you saying you are a Theistic Evolutionist then and would this not necessitate an admittance to ID?alan
August 8, 2010
August
08
Aug
8
08
2010
09:08 AM
9
09
08
AM
PDT
AIguy, I have not been able to figure out how to do quotes here. You said: "He refers to both living things one hand, and hypothetical immaterial intelligent beings on the other hand, all together under the label “intelligent agency”. But we only have experience of one of these two types of things, not the other." Yes, my point was that Meyer did not imply that we have experience of both. (Many people may say they do, but it is very subjective, shall we say.) And: "But obviously human beings didn’t create the first living cell – nothing remotely like anything in our experience could have, because in our experience we only see complex FSCI-rich things acting intelligently" Yes, obviously. It would take something outside our experience to create matter and life forms. If an intelligence did it, it would have to be different than us. That is the implication. but I am merely pointing out that I don't think you have found Meyer in error because I don't think he intended to say anything other than that we see complexity created by intelligence, and therefore we must assume that it took an intelligence to create the life forms initially. The implications disturb you, but that is for you to ponder. And: "In this context I’m referring to intelligent beings which do not have complex, FSCI-rich physical bodies. " Yes, that's the problem isn't it. But when I said why call it immaterial, I was not referring to you. It is a general question, why do we refer to "spiritual" things as nonmaterial? How do we know they are nonmaterial? Do we know everything about the cosmos and its energies? As I said, either a thing exists or it does not. What can nonmaterial mean? I think it means we can't perceive it, but we already know that some very real and material things are not perceivable by our senses.avocationist
August 8, 2010
August
08
Aug
8
08
2010
12:31 AM
12
12
31
AM
PDT
@Petrushka (#41)
I think this is consistent with something I’ve been arguing for a couple of weeks. Biological evolution is absolutely the fastest possible way to solve the problems of survival that living things face.
Axe talks about this for evolved biological resistance - this is restricted to a local search resulting in one or two amino acid changes in the enzyme. The problem of evolving novel folds still remains.cbburn1
August 7, 2010
August
08
Aug
7
07
2010
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6

Leave a Reply