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Computer Simulations and Darwinism

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Okay dudes, no more talk about my abandonment of atheism. Here’s some science and engineering talk.

I know something about computer simulations. In fact, I know a lot about them, and their limitations.

Search algorithms (and especially AI-related search algorithms) are a specialty of mine, as is combinatorial mathematics.

The branching factor (the average number of moves per side) in chess yields approximately 10^120 possible outcomes, but the number of legally achievable positions is approximately 10^80 — the estimated number of elementary particles (protons and neutrons) in the entire known universe. Compare this to the branching factor of nucleotide sequences in the DNA molecule. Do the math.

Finite element analysis (FEA) of nonlinear, transient, dynamic systems, with the use of the most sophisticated, powerful computer program ever devised for such purposes (LS-DYNA, originally conceived at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in the mid-1970s for the development of variable-yield nuclear weapons) is another of my computer-simulation specialties.

Dyna has been used heavily in the automotive industry for simulating car crashes, so that cars can be designed to produce the least damage to occupants.

In these simulations everything is precisely known and empirically quantified (the material properties of the components — modulus of elasticity, mass density, shear modulus, precisely calibrated failure modes, etc.).

In addition, the explicit FEA time step (the minimal integration time step determined by the software based on the speed on sound in the smallest finite element and its mass density, which is required to avoid numerical instability) is critical. In my simulations the time step is approximately a ten-millionth of second, during which partial differential equations, based on the laws of physics (F=ma in particular) are solved to compute the physical distortion of the system and the propagation of the forces throughout the system in question.

One learns very quickly with FEA simulations that even with all of this knowledge and sophistication one must empirically justify the results of the simulation incrementally by comparing the results with the reality it attempts to simulate.

One false assumption about a material property or any of the other aspects of a simulation can completely invalidate it. Worse yet, it can produce results that seem reasonable, but are completely wrong.

So, the next time someone tries to convince you that a computer simulation has validated the creative power of the Darwinian mechanism of random errors filtered by natural selection in biology, you should tell them to go back to school and learn something about legitimate computer simulations, and how difficult it is to produce reliable results, even when the details are well known.

Comments
I'm aware of the problems of pumping blood to the giraffe brain. But the fact is that when legs get longer, many systems have to get longer. How do you suppose all that is coordinated?Petrushka
October 4, 2011
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Are you seriously arguing that the giraffe’s neck supports a gradualistic evolutionary scenario and counts as evidence against design because it is designed poorly? If so, you need to do two things: (i) read up on what is involved in the engineering of the giraffe’s neck, (ii) think through what would be involved in changing it, before making assertions based on simplistic notions of what you think the design should be.
What do you suppose is involved in engineering the difference between a basset hound and a greyhound? You suppose selection could manage that?Petrushka
October 4, 2011
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Elizabeth: "In fact the giraffe’s neck is an excellent example of incremental adaptation being a more likely explanation than intelligent design . . ." Are you seriously arguing that the giraffe's neck supports a gradualistic evolutionary scenario and counts as evidence against design because it is designed poorly? If so, you need to do two things: (i) read up on what is involved in the engineering of the giraffe's neck, (ii) think through what would be involved in changing it, before making assertions based on simplistic notions of what you think the design should be. I would hope you would appreciate this by now, but it bears repeating. First, bad design is not a valid argument against design. Second, the bad design nonsense, from Darwin to modern times, enjoys an extremely poor track record -- nearly 100% negative. Almost without exception (so-called vestigial organs, the supposed backwards wiring of the vertebrate eye, junk DNA, etc.) once we learn more about the system in question it turns out to be an example of exquisite design, including often ingenious engineering constraint tradeoffs. People who make the bad design arguments invariably never offer any detailed engineering explanation for how the system could be engineered better. The argument always grovels at the base level of "gee, this looks kind of strange to me, so it must not have been designed."Eric Anderson
October 4, 2011
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Petruskha: "I’m addressing the Douglas Axe paper in which he argues that sequence space is so sparse that you can’t evolve a new protein by gradual accumulation of mutations from an old one. This is a non-problem. I don’t have the pathetic level of detail, but no one thinks that you can modify an existing protein coding sequence substantially while it is still needed for its old function." You are missing Axe's point. He is not primarly talking about changing a protein while it is still needed for old function (although that would further complicate things). His work shows that *even assuming* you've got a neutral sequence hanging around (from duplication or whatever your preferred approach is). Even if you have complete and total freedom to tweak the sequence all you want, you simply are not likely to stumble upon a functional protein sequence.Eric Anderson
October 4, 2011
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Elizabeth: "But Gil, the range of “existing” information in any given population that is “mixed and matched” is itself the result of mutations!" If you simply mean that mutations are happening and changing existing information, then sure (although they wouldn't be changing it for the better, see below). If you mean that mutations are responsible for the functional complex specified information that is in organisms in the first place, then your statement is an unsupported article of faith. "Mutations – novel sequences – are constantly being drip-fed into the population . . ." Again, if you mean that mutations can change sequences, sure. If you mean that mutations bring about new functional complex specified information, then this statement is unsupported. "Especially as we know from simulations that this is exactly what happens!" Not clear what you mean by "this." What is it you think is happening in computer simulations? If you are referring to the fact that simulations are programmed to keep the "helpful" changes and cull the bad ones, then we are simply talking about a circular programming logic. If you are suggesting that simulations produce new functional complex specified information, that is simply false. No computer simulation has ever done so.Eric Anderson
October 4, 2011
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[q]I think we have a language problem here. “Natural selection” doesn’t “act” at all. It’s just the name we give to what happens when variants have differential reproduction in a given environment, and the resulting increased prevalence in the population of those variants that do best in that environment is what we call the adaptation of the population to that environment. That is the sense in which I was using the word “adaptation”.[/q] Liz, et.al. Its nice to see someone from the Darwinian camp admit to this. I've been saying for quite some time that NS is not a mechanism contrary to the claims of Darwinists that NS is one of the main mechanisms of evolution. It is just as you say, little more than a label given after the fact to certain observations we make. But if NS isn't the mechanism, then what is? That, it seems to me, is part of the issue...evolution doesn't really seem to have a mechanism.DonaldM
October 4, 2011
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For record, moving around WITHIN a landscape of complex function, is utterly different from FINDING the islands in which those landscapes live, in the wider space of configs.kairosfocus
October 4, 2011
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DLH You are of course right, but the problem is not cogency but listening. We have people who refuse to see a difference between moving about within an island of complex and specific function, and getting to such an island in a vast config space without intelligent guidance. You cannot extrapolate from the one to the other, but that is not recognised. The same people use intelligence to compose messages, and who see that you cannot compose anything of consequence by trial and error, want to imagine that in the special case of life, that happened. The implied appeal to repeated miracles of chance -- a cull on differential reproductive success across sub-populations is REMOVING not adding info -- pass right over their heads without their noticing. I have seen this before, with Marxists. So, I conclude: we are seeing a priori commitments and indoctrination in action. It is going to take an internal collapse of the evolutionary materialistic paradigm for many minds to change. But, already, alarming cracks are springing up in the foundations of the scheme. At this point, we need to note for record, observe on the implications of the symptoms, and move on. Twenty more years, is my guess. Back in 1980, few would have predicted that by 1990 - 91, Communism would be dead. (Never mind how it keeps on trying to stir and rise from its shallow grave. Von Mises and von Hayek put the fatal stake through the heart.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 4, 2011
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ScottAndrews: "Even that gets you only as far as variation, perhaps changes in beak sizes and shapes. It does not extrapolate to beaks, birds, or vertebrates." Elizabeth: "Why not?" Elizabeth, here is the fundamental, critical question you need to ask yourself: What if the microevolutionary changes we see don't lead to large-scale macroevolutionary changes? Once you are willing to sincerely ask this question and escape from the assumption that everything is all part of a the same long process of evolution, you find yourself free to examine the evidence in a whole new light. This mindset -- that all reality is just different manifestations of the one overarching reality of evolution -- is one of the principle barriers to being able to evaluate the evidence in an impartial manner.Eric Anderson
October 4, 2011
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Elizabeth,
It’s just the name we give to what happens when variants have differential reproduction in a given environment, and the resulting increased prevalence in the population of those variants that do best in that environment is what we call the adaptation of the population to that environment.
Which is it? Differential reproduction or adaptation? How do you know whether differential reproduction has anything to do with the environment at all? It's circular. Differential reproduction results from a better fit to the environment, and a better fit to the environment is determined by differential reproduction.
you determine that it becomes fixed in the population faster than predicted by drift, and then you figure out by what mechanism it is conferring advantage.
That's better, although the dots between the specific benefit of the variation and the differential reproduction would have to be connected quite well. What appears to be selection could be epigenetic.
Even that gets you only as far as variation, perhaps changes in beak sizes and shapes. It does not extrapolate to beaks, birds, or vertebrates.
Why not?
I stand corrected. Such an extrapolation is at best a guess, so who am I to say what you may or may not imagine?ScottAndrews
October 4, 2011
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Natural selection (according to theory) acts on individual variations, not adaptations. It is parts, not sums.
I think we have a language problem here. "Natural selection" doesn't "act" at all. It's just the name we give to what happens when variants have differential reproduction in a given environment, and the resulting increased prevalence in the population of those variants that do best in that environment is what we call the adaptation of the population to that environment. That is the sense in which I was using the word "adaptation".
Well, you have to do it statistically – if a variant becomes more prevalent in a population, then it is probably conferring some systematic reproductive advantage.
How can natural explanation explain anything when you cannot identify when it has occurred?
You can identify it, but only in the aggregate. This is true of lots of phenomena.
In order for the theory to be meaningful you must observe an individual variation, determine that it is advantageous, and observe that it leads to differential reproduction and becomes fixed in the population.
Or backwards: you determine that it becomes fixed in the population faster than predicted by drift, and then you figure out by what mechanism it is conferring advantage.
I honestly don’t find the idea that controversial, but that doesn’t mean it should get a free pass right on to being the cornerstone of biology without which nothing in biology makes sense, etc.
Sure, it shouldn't. I'm not suggesting it should.
Even that gets you only as far as variation, perhaps changes in beak sizes and shapes. It does not extrapolate to beaks, birds, or vertebrates.
Why not?
To say after the fact, that well, it’s prevalent in the population therefore it’s possible that it was advantageous and possible that it was selected, or maybe not, is meaningless. Less than meaningless.
Well you have to first compute the probability under the null of neutral drift, and if that is low, find the mechanism that seems to be conferring reproductive advantage.Elizabeth Liddle
October 4, 2011
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Elizabeth,
It’s what natural selection is – the adaptation of a population to its environment by means of the differential reproduction of heritable variants within that environment.
Natural selection (according to theory) acts on individual variations, not adaptations. It is parts, not sums.
Well, you have to do it statistically – if a variant becomes more prevalent in a population, then it is probably conferring some systematic reproductive advantage.
How can natural explanation explain anything when you cannot identify when it has occurred? In order for the theory to be meaningful you must observe an individual variation, determine that it is advantageous, and observe that it leads to differential reproduction and becomes fixed in the population. I honestly don't find the idea that controversial, but that doesn't mean it should get a free pass right on to being the cornerstone of biology without which nothing in biology makes sense, etc. Even that gets you only as far as variation, perhaps changes in beak sizes and shapes. It does not extrapolate to beaks, birds, or vertebrates. To say after the fact, that well, it's prevalent in the population therefore it's possible that it was advantageous and possible that it was selected, or maybe not, is meaningless. Less than meaningless.ScottAndrews
October 4, 2011
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Dr Liddle, the problem persists that in nothing you say is there anything of the rise of semiosis/information. I know its a broken record for materialists, but unforatunately its also the central figure in living systems. Without it, the prolific assumptions begin at the very start. Please point me to a materialist paper that doesn't simple assume a material reason for a combination of chemical compounds throwing off the shackles of entropy which ALL other material things must endure - only to forge unbelievable complex function in its place. Function? Can you point me to a single peer-reviewed article that calls this assumption into question in a serious manner. How many times has it been cited by others as a serious challenge to this assumption? Has it been buried? Why is not such a paper(s) heralded as being a logical benchmark in the search for OOL; why is it not in constant discourse among scientist attempting to explain the utterly astounding presence of biosemiotic LIFE in a universe of constant degradation and entropy? Or, in place of another round of meaningless answers to these questions, I would settle for your answers in regard to this conversation: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/science-and-freethinking/comment-page-2/#comment-401695Upright BiPed
October 4, 2011
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Liz, Let me preface my comments with some accolades. You have tremendous courage coming on this forum and defending your position with decorum and civility.
You are very gracious, Gil, but no courage on my part is required :) If I persuade you of my case, that is fine - if you persuade me of yours - well, I shall also regard that as fine! After all, in that case I will presumably regard my change of view as an improvement :)
But Gil, the range of “existing” information in any given population that is “mixed and matched” is itself the result of mutations!
This is a completely unverified assumption based on an a priori assumption that random errors — which universally and consistently degrade complex functionally integrated systems — can produce the exact opposite.
It's an extremely well-verified "assumption" - which is why evolutionary algorithms actually work! Random copying "errors" (scare quotes used because of course they are not "errors" - an EA wouldn't work without them), in other words, replication with stochastically introduced variation do not "consistently" and certainly do not "universally" degrade complex functionally integrated systems. They do if the system is not robust to variation (by definition) but not all complex functionally integrated systems are vulnerable to variation, and biological organisms are demonstrably robust to variation, which is why most of us are healthy despite the huge number of alleles found in the human population.
In addition, even the most trivial mathematical calculation of the probabilistic resources that would be required relegates all of this speculation to the realm of magical thinking, in my opinion.
Required for what? Could you show your calculation, and show me what you are calculating?
I no longer visit Darwinist websites because of the vilification and outright pathological hatred and vitriol displayed against me and those of my persuasion.
Well, I can understand that. It's one of the reasons I set up my own site.
I am especially offensive to such people, because my interest and expertise in science, engineering, mathematics, computation, and information theory — all of which they thought would support their worldview — convinced me that they have everything wrong.
But there are many people with interest and expertise in science, engineering, mathematics, computation and information theory who are just as convinced that you have "everything wrong"! I'd argue many more, in fact. I'd even include myself :)
The point of my post is that the creative potential of the proposed Darwinian mechanism is based on completely unverifiable assumptions (and even empirically falsified assumptions), which contradict everything we have learned in the information age.
Well, I'm not sure what "unverifiable assumptions" you mean, but it seems to me that it is perfectly verifiable that organisms are robust to genetic variation, and, moreover, that even though in a well-adapted population, more new variants will be less good than even better, those that are less good will tend to drop out of the gene pool. So far from contradicting "everything we have learned in the information age" that "assumption" is entirely consistent with it, and, moreover, underlies much information theory, including neural science, and certainly including the development of evolutionary algorithms.
Natural selection does nothing to mitigate the probabilistic hurdles that must be overcome.
Well, first I'd like to know what these "probabilistic hurdles" and then I'd like to know why "natural selection does nothing to overcome" them. Natural selection is not, of course, an agent, and it can be misleading to use it as the subject of a verb. Natural selection simply means, no more and no less, than the simple fact that in populations that replicate with heritable variance in reproductive success, the probability is high that variants that confer some phenotypic feature that enhances reproductive success will become more prevalent than those that those without that feature. In other words, far from being "improbable", adaptation becomes highly probable, once you have that self-replicating population.
NS is a garbage-disposal system. Garbage disposals don’t create anything new.
Not really. Natural selection is simply differential reproduction. If a new variant reproduces better in a given environment, or even if an old variant reproduces better in a new environment, that is natural selection. What produces something "new" is the drip feed of near neutral variation. What builds these new variants into some new function is the accumulation, over generations, of variants of variants each of which confer increased reproductive success in the current environment. Which can be observed readily in any Evolutionary algorithm, and is observed both in the lab and in the field.
Finally, I refer you to my link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEQbgJ2J9D4 If Darwinism is true we must believe that random errors (with the bad errors thrown out by natural selection) created the mind of Chopin who composed his beautiful piano concerto.
Natural selection does not throw out bad errors. Natural selection is, as I said, no more than heritable variation in reproductive success. Obviously if a new variant is incompatible with reproduction it will be "thrown out" in the sense that it will not join the gene pool. Much more important is that any change in the environment will tend to result in a change in the prevalence of existing variants within the pool, a pool that is being constantly drip-fed by near-near neutral variants that drift kaleidoscopically across it. As the environment fluctuates and changes, these variants shift in "selection coefficient" - fluctuate from being slightly advantageous to neutral to slightly disadvantageous and back again, sometimes simply around a mean, sometimes, if the change in the environment is rapid (and remember that the environment includes the evolving population itself, so there are feedback loops and resulting non-linearities) in a consistent direction along some fitness dimension. So why should this not result eventually in Chopin? Why should our primate ancestors not have moved systematically along the dimension of greater and greater intellectual and imaginative power, given the benefits that it provides?
It also must explain the invention of the musical instruments, the skill and dedication of the musicians, and the passion and beauty of this wonderful art.
Well, no. It must explain the capacity to invent musical instruments. But once you have cultural vectors for the transmission of behaviour as well as genetic ones, we are beyond Darwin (except in the sense of "neural Darwinism", which is important, and relevant, but not what Darwin was talking about). Nobody thinks that Chopin's music evolved by Darwinian mechanisms (apart from neural Darwinism), merely that people with the capacity to develop a culture that enabled some to write music on a par with Chopin's did.
I’m sorry, but there is no way I could possibly muster up enough irrational blind faith to believe in such a thing.
And I hope you never will :) What is required is not "irrational blind faith" but insight into just how well the universe actually works :) In fact, if the ID argument was that only a God could have invented a universe that could bring forth Chopin, I'd be almost fine with it. What I'm not fine with is the idea that the only possible God is one who had to tinker with his/her creation from time to time in order to ensure that Chopin turned up. The theory that the universe actually works without outside interference seems infinitely more marvellous to me than one that requires a maintenance engineer :) It is also, IMO, one that is supported by overwhelming evidence.Elizabeth Liddle
October 4, 2011
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I'm addressing the Douglas Axe paper in which he argues that sequence space is so sparse that you can't evolve a new protein by gradual accumulation of mutations from an old one. This is a non-problem. I don't have the pathetic level of detail, but no one thinks that you can modify an existing protein coding sequence substantially while it is still needed for its old function. But there are many sources of emergent proteins, ones with minimal functionality, arising from duplicated genes or from other genomic changes. We can track these through lineages. Someone else on this forum asserted there were 22 proteins separating humans from chimps. This was supposed to be an argument in favor of ID. But 22 proteins is eleven each for the two species, about 2 per million years since divergence. That seems about right for evolution and not particularly fast for a designer. More pathetic detail is no doubt needed. It would be interesting to see and compare the coding sequences.Petrushka
October 4, 2011
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sorry about messing up the quote tags!Elizabeth Liddle
October 4, 2011
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Natural selection is the selection of individual variations.
Well, it's the increase in prevalence, in a population, of those heritable variants that tend to confer reproductive success.
The concept of natural selection does not include adaptation.
? Yes it does! It's what natural selection is - the adaptation of a population to its environment by means of the differential reproduction of heritable variants within that environment.
You could argue that an individually selected variation is an adaptation, but above you distinguished the two by stating that one leads to the other.
Well, if it's "selected" that means it was adaptive! Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "individually selected variation". Variants aren't exactly "individually selected". No active "selection" of course takes place at all. "Natural selection" simply refers to the self-evident fact that variants tend to reproduce better in a given environment will become more prevalent in that environment (by definition!) The other name for that is "adaptation" by a population, to its environment, i.e. the increased prevalence of variants that do well (are well "adapted") to that environment
Is every inherited variation a selected one?
No. "Selected" variations are those that become more prevalent in a population because they confer some kind of reproductive advantage in that environment (better camouflage, for instance, or more efficient foraging). Most variants will be neutral with respect to the current environment.
Can a variation be inherited but not selected?
Of course. Any variant that is passed on to an organism's offspring is "inherited". Only when, and if, organisms with that variant tend to reproduce better in that environment than other variants do we say they are "selected".
It seems that in order to know the difference one would have to determine that a single variation was directly responsible for differential reproduction. How does one do that?
Well, you have to do it statistically - if a variant becomes more prevalent in a population, then it is probably conferring some systematic reproductive advantage. However, some fluctuations in prevalence are simply drift, so you'd need to demonstrate that the rate of increase in prevalence is sufficiently rapid that it is unlikely to be due to drift alone. And of course all inferential statistics come with confidence limits. Also, de novo mutations are fairly unlikely to be advantageous ("selected") at time of first appearance - the vast majority of de novo mutations are near-neutral in effect, and some of them drift right out of the population straight away while others drift across it. Those that become prevalent by drift contribute to the richness of the gene pool, so that when the environment changes, the population is able to adapt. In populations that get too small, this richness of course is reduced, and extinction becomes more likely.
Elizabeth Liddle
October 4, 2011
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There isn't any evidence that demonstrates any organism is a sum of its genome. And although genes may influence development they do not determine it. As for gene regulation, well Darwinism can account for that either.Joseph
October 4, 2011
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But why would new proteins be needed for any of those things? Ciphertext: a regulatory sequence is a DNA sequence of that may or may not code for a protein, but does code for the expression of genes that do code for proteins, according to incoming signals, either from internal or external environment. Genes are expressed both during development, to build the organism, and throughout the lifetime of the organism, to enable it to maintain itself and to function. Every time you move, or think, genes are switched on and off, so that they express, or stop expressing, proteins. When and where they do so is what makes you physically different from other people (even your identical twin!), from other species, and from yourself yesterday.Elizabeth Liddle
October 4, 2011
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Except nature does not select and natural selection is just an output of three processes.Joseph
October 4, 2011
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One doesn’t need new proteins to make a longer neck. Changes in size are regulatory changes, and one doesn’t have to have separate genetic changes to take care of muscles and bones. Development takes care of coordinating the separate systems.
Those are pretty bold assertions! No, usually an offspring with a longer neck does not need new proteins to accomplish that. Let's say I have a 5.0" neck and my child grows up and has a 5.3" neck. I would feel safe with your assertion that no new proteins were developed for him/her to have the 0.3" longer neck. But at some point during giraffe evolution, many new features were required to prevent catastrophe: pressure sensors along the arteries, valves throughout the veins to control returning blood flow, along with the larger heart, thicker arteries, etc. I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but I would tend to be more cautious when saying "no new proteins are needed to make a longer neck".uoflcard
October 4, 2011
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Well, that’s the irreducible complexity argument.
No, it's not. It's the fCSI argument.
But it’s based simply on the assertion that these “canyons” exist.
It's not an assertion, it's an observation. It's an observation from every time we have ever witnessed something complex, functional and specified being created; it has always involved leaps in information, not piece-by-piece increases in functionality. The burden of proof is on you to show that this is possible. You are the one making unsubstantiated assertions. And incremental modification does not conflict with ID. It just depends on what how big the "increments" are. Many ID advocates believe in descent with modification, in one way or another. So many would agree with you for why the laryngeal nerve is where it is. Others say it serves, or may serve, purposes we're not yet fully aware of. You could fill a 500-page text book with the cases where neo-Darwinian evolutionists completely underestimated a biological feature as "bad design" when it was accomplishing something no one had foresaw.uoflcard
October 4, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle Re: "Mutations – novel sequences – . . .Why shouldn’t this produce a continously operating homeostatic system that constantly optimises the population . . .?" Excellent question that strikes to the core of the issue. 1) The very high probability that mutations systemically degrades the genome much faster than any probability of fixing "beneficial" mutations. 2) Any benefit of "beneficial" mutations is swamped by the load of harmful mutations since the organism can only pass them all on to the next generation, negating any possibility of beneficial "natural selection". 3) This overwhelming degenerating process very strongly prevents the first viable self reproducing cell from ever forming. These degeneration statistics are similar to that of the overwhelming probability of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. For a popular presentation with technical appendix see John Sanford, Genetic Entropy and The Mystery of the Genome ISBN-13: 978-0981631608. To see the effective consequence of such mutations, check out: Mendel's Accountant. That gives you full control over all the mutation parameters and gives you quantitative statistics from actual forward mutation runs. All Darwinian arm waving is not in the remotest sense credible against the overwhelming statistics of mutational degradation. Arthur Eddington declared:
if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation.”
Gifford Lectures (1927), The Nature of the Physical World (1928), 74 Ivan Pavlovich Bazarov (1916-2005) observed:
“The second law of thermodynamics is, without a doubt, one of the most perfect laws in physics. . . . . It is not possible to find any other law (except, perhaps, for super selection rules such as charge conservation) for which a proposed violation would bring more skepticism than this one.
The statistical probability of overcoming this systemic mutational degradation of the genome is in the same class as the probability of violating the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Any attempt to overcome it is laughably futile.DLH
October 3, 2011
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Liz, Let me preface my comments with some accolades. You have tremendous courage coming on this forum and defending your position with decorum and civility.
But Gil, the range of “existing” information in any given population that is “mixed and matched” is itself the result of mutations!
This is a completely unverified assumption based on an a priori assumption that random errors -- which universally and consistently degrade complex functionally integrated systems -- can produce the exact opposite. In addition, even the most trivial mathematical calculation of the probabilistic resources that would be required relegates all of this speculation to the realm of magical thinking, in my opinion. I no longer visit Darwinist websites because of the vilification and outright pathological hatred and vitriol displayed against me and those of my persuasion. I am especially offensive to such people, because my interest and expertise in science, engineering, mathematics, computation, and information theory -- all of which they thought would support their worldview -- convinced me that they have everything wrong. The point of my post is that the creative potential of the proposed Darwinian mechanism is based on completely unverifiable assumptions (and even empirically falsified assumptions), which contradict everything we have learned in the information age. Natural selection does nothing to mitigate the probabilistic hurdles that must be overcome. NS is a garbage-disposal system. Garbage disposals don't create anything new. Finally, I refer you to my link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEQbgJ2J9D4 If Darwinism is true we must believe that random errors (with the bad errors thrown out by natural selection) created the mind of Chopin who composed his beautiful piano concerto. It also must explain the invention of the musical instruments, the skill and dedication of the musicians, and the passion and beauty of this wonderful art. I'm sorry, but there is no way I could possibly muster up enough irrational blind faith to believe in such a thing.GilDodgen
October 3, 2011
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Your last paragraph is almost as predictable from you as your "conversion from atheism" story. Yet you never give any evidence. Some time ago you said that your high school math showed you why "Darwinism" is wrong: when are you going to share the math with us?Grunty
October 3, 2011
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What would constitute a regulatory sequence? Is that a sequence of genes? If so, I gather that the use of the term "sequence" indicates that there is a significance in the order of the genes comprising the sequence. So perhaps you don't need new genes (folded proteins), but you would need a previously unrecorded sequence? So you have a specific set of proteins/genes to operate upon which represent a reduced set of the larger, possible proteins in configuration space. I wonder what the possible sequences could be? Can they repeat or is that a "no no"? What are the other term limiting factors? Something like I have a "G" so that means the next term could be a "C" or an "A" but not a "T". That could further reduce the config space per term, but probably not in total.ciphertext
October 3, 2011
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That's interesting - I didn't realise that people thought that having a longer neck required new proteins.Elizabeth Liddle
October 3, 2011
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It really depends on the landscape. I think the Douglas Axe paper muddies the water by assuming that evolution is mostly about making new proteins. This seems to be the focus of Behe's Edge also. But most morphological evolution, including most of what separates one mammal from another, is accomplished in regulatory sequences, not in protein coding sequences. One doesn't need new proteins to make a longer neck. Changes in size are regulatory changes, and one doesn't have to have separate genetic changes to take care of muscles and bones. Development takes care of coordinating the separate systems. If this weren't true, then sizes differences within species would be mostly fatal.Petrushka
October 3, 2011
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Well, that's the irreducible complexity argument. But it's based simply on the assertion that these "canyons" exist. Why should the giraffe's neck not have been due to incremental adaptation? It's not as though anyone is proposing that suddenly a generation of giraffes had 8 foot necks and then had to wait around hoping for the right kind of arterial support. In fact the giraffe's neck is an excellent example of incremental adaptation being a more likely explanation than intelligent design - why else would its recurrent laryngeal nerve have to take such an enormous detour rather than a short cut, if not because it is the result of incremental modification from a short-necked ancestors in which the routing is less of a problem (though still a problem, and for us too), and, which in turn resulted from incremental change from yet more remote ancestors with no necks at all?Elizabeth Liddle
October 3, 2011
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Why shouldn’t this produce a continously operating homeostatic system that constantly optimises the population as the environment changes, and maintains it at an optimum when it stays the same? Especially as we know from simulations that this is exactly what happens!
Sounds good, except you forgot the whole problem about complexity, in which life is rich. It works great when you don't need complex novelty, just optimization in the variety. For instance, Darwin's finches. It also works with make-believe, middle school biology explanations for things like giraffe's necks. Long ago, ancestors to giraffes had much shorter necks (among other differences). There was competition for the available foliage. Some orangisms' necks were longer than others. The longer their necks, the higher the vegetation they could reach, where there was less competition. These were more likely to reproduce than the average pre-giraffe, so the average neck length of the population drifted upward. This continued until we have the giraffe's of today! Nevermind that multiple phenotypic canyons had to be crossed, which required loads of new information to prevent the organism from passing out, arteries from rupturing, etc. None of this information could seemingly be pieced together bit-by-bit with gradually increasing fitness, just as the code for Windows 7 can't be generated bit-by-bit with increased functionality at each step. Simulations are great at showing that functional, complex specificity can only be generated by intelligence, either all at once or piece-by-piece with an end goal in mind. It's like saying my car can drive from here to Disney World all by itself (as long as I make velocity [speed and direction] corrections at certain points).uoflcard
October 3, 2011
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