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Contemplating the Undead

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Origin of Life theories attempt to account for the transition from prebiotic matter to biotic matter.  Beginning with Darwin’s warm little pond and continuing through the present day, scientists have tried to explain how this intuitively unlikely jump could have been made.  In his wonderful article On the Origins of Life (here), David Berlinski summarizes some of the more important assumptions scientists must make in trying to resolve this weighty question:

“First, that the pre-biotic atmosphere was chemically reductive; second, that nature found a way to synthesize cytosine; third, that nature also found a way to synthesize ribose; fourth, that nature found the means to assemble nucleotides into polynucleotides; fifth, that nature discovered a self-replicating molecule; and sixth, that having done all that, nature promoted a self-replicating molecule into a full system of coded chemistry.”

As I was contemplating this issue, something occurred to me.  Why are scientists taking on such a hard job up front?  Why not start with an easier problem and gradually increase complexity.  Instead of starting from nothing and trying to work forward to a full-blown living being, why don’t they start with “almost everything” and work their way backwards?

This is what I mean.  Some enterprising researcher eager for a trip to Oslo should take the very simplest single-celled critter he can find and bump it off.  Then he can take the recently bumped off critter and zap it with electricity or something and make it come back to life.  The critter was, by definition, not alive, so in a sense we can call it prebiotic matter.  But after the zapping stage of the experiment, the critter will be alive (or at least undead).  This will prove that living things can come from non-living matter.

This experiment should be easy.  There are gazillions of very simple single-celled critters running around who, I am certain, would be honored to help advance our understanding of science.  Some of them may even be publicity hounds and therefore eager to be the subject of a Nobel prize winning experiment.  Not even PETA would object to bumping off a couple of these wee beasties in the interest of earth-shattering scientific progress.

On the other hand, it seems like this experiment would involve a huge risk for metaphysical materialists.  In my experiment the non-living matter has every single building block of life readily to hand.  Unlike present origin of life research, no one has to conjure up any critical ingredients through convenient assumptions.  The only thing that is missing is the mysterious “anima” of living things.  But if the researcher can’t make this stuff come alive (or undead) under such ideal conditions, isn’t the attempt to come up with a plausible origin of life scenario under far less propitious circumstances utterly doomed to failure?

I’m sure I’m not the first person who has thought of this.  What say our intrepid readers?

Comments
The univeral probability bound is 500 informational bits. As a comparison, "ME THINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL" is only 133 bits of information(as a sentence; the complexity of the items of the set is 16, 48, 16, 16, 32, 8, 48 plus 8 bits for each space). I doubt “John broke his wind.” comes any closer...not to mention the starting point is "John broke his wand.” so that only reduces the change in information content. If dismissing ID was that easy none of us would be here.Patrick
September 15, 2006
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Houdin, “John broke his wind.” New information again. The “a” in “wand” has been changed to an “i”. Now run it through natural selection (look it up in the dictionary). Success! “wind” is in the dictionary. You can also check the grammer and you’ll find that the grammer is correct, if you want to. We now have a piece of brand new Complex Specified Information: “John broke his wind.” ID is successfully disproven. Congratuations! I see you've finally discovered what all your imagined falsifications of ID really are - breaking wind.DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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Houdin, I suggest you take your sentence example and try to form a paragraph that makes sense of say 5 sentences. Use addition and subtraction mutations as well and then use the period to be a sentence marker. Use every nano second since the beginning of the universe. See what comes out without any direction. Say a sentence is 8 words long and each word is 5 characters and there are a total of 28 characters including the space and the period. So our paragraph is 40 words long but approximately 245 characters depending upon how you use spaces. Now each position could be one of 28 characters, letters, space and period. So the number of possible combinations are 28x28...(245 times) without considering the addition and subtraction mutations. Your mutations or monkeys on a typewriter are never going to produce an English paragraph even with as many universes as you can dream up.jerry
September 15, 2006
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Houdin Think of a simple molecule or a few simple molecules that manage to self-reproduce. Are you channeling Darwin or something? You just asked me to imagine a simple blob of protoplasm. Thanks for reinforcing my point that the idea of spontaneous generation hasn't been refined much in the thousands of years since Aristotle said aphids spring out of morning dew. Too funny! :razz:DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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Karl Pfluger-- What suprises me is that so many seem to think that every living thing requires ongoing immaterial “assistance” to remain living, minute by minute, and that the laws of physics and chemistry are not sufficient to sustain life once it is in existence. Karl do you really believe the laws of physics and chemistry are sufficient to sustain life once it is in existence?tribune7
September 15, 2006
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Just a few answers: Karl Pfluger wrote: “It doesn’t surprise me that ID supporters think the origin of life, or of particular biological structures, required the intervention of an intelligence. What suprises me is that so many seem to think that every living thing requires ongoing immaterial “assistance” to remain living, minute by minute, and that the laws of physics and chemistry are not sufficient to sustain life once it is in existence." and: "Unless I am misinterpreting their comments, five people on this thread alone hold such a view." (including me). Well, I think you got it right, at least about me. I confess again that I don't believe that the laws of physics and chemistry, as they are understood at present, can explain life and/or consciousness. But I am well aware that, probably, most people in the ID field would not agree. That's perfectly right for me, one of the beautiful characteristics of the ID debate is that it is very pragmatic, and that people with very different views of reality may agree on some fundamental interpretations of things. Moreover, I don't think my personal philosophical view of reality (which I have no reason to discuss here) would really fit in your idea of "vitalism". From a strictly scientific point of view, I don't think that life, or consciousness, need any violation of physical laws, I just think that our understanding of physical laws is at present very limited, and that a future, deeper understanding will naturally incorporate the principles governing life and consciousness. I don't believe in a mechanical, deterministic view of nature and of physical laws. As you certainly know, the debate in physics is very open about many of these questions. Again, please check Penrose for a non alghorythmic view of consciousness, and all the debates about possible relationships between quantum theory, consciousness and biological phenomena. This is just to say that it is not only a question of "vitalism", in the sense of reviving old fashioned superstitions of the past centuries. The problem is that some scientists think that science (physics, biology, etc.) has already found the answers to most questions, at least in principle, and that only details are missing. Other scientists don't agree with that, and think that many mysteries are still challenging the human mind. For me, the nature of life and consciousness, the origin and evolution of information in biological beings, the origin of the universe and its true structure, the relationship between relativity and quantum mechanics, are a few very good examples of realities which are still not understood. Regarding the concept, repeated by many in this thread, that the first living things would have been much simpler than actual cells, and so on, I am perfectly aware hat most scientists who discuss abiogenesis believe that. I don't. I want only to state, again, that these are only suppositions, unsupported by any evidence. Again, the truth is that no living thing simpler than archea or bacteria (with the only exception of viruses, which are not autonomous structures) has ever been observed, nor any indirect evidence of its existence, now or in the past, has ever been found. These are the facts. Regarding my affirmation that freezed cells and seeds are not dead, I think it should be perfectly understandable in the light of the common meaning given to the word "dead". To my knowledge, freezed cells have never been considered "dead". They are more commonly considered in some state of "suspended animation". I wanted only to state that both seeds (however long living) and frozen cells are something different from "dead" ex-living things. I can't say what happens in a frozen cell, no more than I can say what life is. So, to Steveh's qestions: "What would happen if you cut a frozen cell in half but kept the two halves frozen? Is it now dead, or does it not die until you thaw it? What happens to the soul or anima (or whatever) while the cell is frozen. Is it bored and/or cold?" my only possible answer is: I don't know. Nor, I think, does science. You seem to know, and I respect your faith, but I feel no need to share it.gpuccio
September 15, 2006
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BarryA: "I am not sure why the fact that the single celled beasties might have had troglodyte tendencies makes a difference to my thought experiment." FilmGrain: "In fact, Berlinski mentions it at length in his response to his critics in the “Letters to the Editor” section of Commentary Magazine (May 2006)." Remarkable! Berlinski knew about what has become the most likely scenario for abiogenesis, but failed to even mention it in an article on abiogenesis! Thermal vents at the bottom of the sea might be a good spot for abiogenesis, but in the last few years we've learned that the possible places for abiogenesis are much huger than that - just about everything under the earth, down to a depth of a mile or more is in play now. Areas where plate tectonics have pulled water deep under the earth are especially likely and that is a huge percentage of our land area. I'm really surprised he didn't mention that. Is Commentary on line?Houdin
September 15, 2006
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BarryA: "That is my point. If we cannot even “repair” the very simplest dead singled celled critter, what hope do we have of ever demonstrating that one sprang up fully formed like Athena from Zeus’s head?" Everybody (and not just BarryA): NO scientist investigating abiogenesis thinks that a single celled critter is going to be the first living thing unless you define "single celled critter" as one or a few chemicals inside a bubble. Pure statistics dictates that the first living thing has to be simple. Life apparently started just about as soon as the lava solidified in the early earth. You'll effectively never get any kind of remotely complex cell to self-assemble in the time available. (The odds exceed the Universal Probability Bounds.) Think of a simple molecule or a few simple molecules that manage to self-reproduce. (And think of a long stringy polymer when you're thinking of that molecule, like proteins or DNA, since life is essentially made from long stringy polymers and long stringy polymers are the only molecules we know of today that reproduce easily.) Once you have a population of them, evolution will start automatically adding new information to the molecule(s) and, in a few million or a few hundred million (we don't know which) years, something approaching a modern cell will be produced.Houdin
September 15, 2006
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BarryA: "1. A living thing, including a man, cannot be anything more than a complicated organic machine, and the first such machine was somehow able to assemble itself from its constituent parts through blind natural forces. 2. Human intelligence must be reducible to the physical properties of the brain, which is nothing more than an organic computer (someone has called it “smart meat”), and consciousness is an illusion." 1. What do you think the first living thing was? A cell? Try a single molecule that is capable of self replication or a few such molecules inside a membrane. One thing that all scientists in the field are agreed on is that whatever the first living thing was, it was much, much, much simpler than a modern cell. All you really need is self-replication, heredity so the offspring are basically the same as their parents and the ability to make small changes so that evolution can start. 2. All the people I know who say "consciousness is an illusion", have heard about Daniel Dennett's thesis, but have never actually read it. Do you know what he really means when he says, "consciousness is an illusion"? BarryA: "There are lots of experiments that would falsify ID. Any experiment that demonstrated, for example, a plausible mechanism for a abiogenesis. By plausible I mean, well, plausible. Wishful speculations like those in Houdin’s comment don’t count. Demonstrating a mechanism for abiogenesis would not falsify ID. It's easy to imagine a world where a designer makes the "big" things while natural mechanisms produce "small" things. BarryA: "Any experiment that shows that information (I would be willing to settle for fairly simple information – you don’t have to demonstrate anything remotely as complex as that contained in the simplest bacterium) can be generated by blind natural forces would falsify ID." Now this is more like it! I will now proceed to falsify ID (according to BarryA's definition of ID) by showing that information can be generated by blind natural forces: 1: Start with a polymer. We could use DNA, RNA, proteins or something like that, but I'm going to start with a short sentence because it's easier to see the information appear that way. Starting sentence "John broke his wand." Now generate new information by mutating one character: "John bzoke his wand." This is new information. The "r" in "broke" has been changed to a "z". You started with one sentence, now you have two. Now simulate natural selection. Normally this happens automatically as the organism tries to develop and live with the new information, but for this demonstration, we just look for "bzoke" in the dictionary. It's not there, so discard it (let the organism die). It's new information, but it's not useful information. (Not Complex Specified Information in Dembski's terminology. It's Complex, but it doesn't meet the specification, which is "information that keeps the organism alive and thriving".) So we're back to our original information: "John broke his wand." Mutate it again. "John broke his wind." New information again. The "a" in "wand" has been changed to an "i". Now run it through natural selection (look it up in the dictionary). Success! "wind" is in the dictionary. You can also check the grammer and you'll find that the grammer is correct, if you want to. We now have a piece of brand new Complex Specified Information: "John broke his wind." ID is successfully disproven. If you doubt my definition of information, read Dembski's first book, "The Design Inference". I think he's also reprinted the salient parts and put them on line somewhere. And, it goes without saying, this is exactly the process that evolution uses to generate Complex Specified Information - random mutations to generate complex new information followed by natural selection to see if the Complex Information is also Specified - to see if meets the specification: keep the organism alive and thriving. Of course, ID isn't really falsified by this argument because a Designer could always put in some new information that would pass the natural selection test. But it does falsify CSI as a marker for ID.Houdin
September 15, 2006
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BarryA, My point was simply to put your claim (with which I agree) into stark terms, for the benefit of those who don't "get it." Also, the focus is so often on the presence (or lack thereof) of CSI "in nature." I think it's worth highlighting the human ability to generate it essentially at will. That's all.j
September 15, 2006
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PaV wrote:
Now, if you were to ask me, “Can anything ‘live’ without God’s active participation?”, the answer would be “no”. But that is because everyone’s “primary substance”, our “being,” not only comes from God, but, apart from God, cannot continue to exist. Again: philosophical/theological.
PaV, To clarify, when you say that life requires God's active participation, do you mean that God "props up" the laws of physics and chemistry, but that otherwise life is simply the unfolding of those laws for a particular configuration of matter, or do you mean that God overrides those laws (whether in a detectable way or not) in order to allow a living being to continue to live?Karl Pfluger
September 15, 2006
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I wrote:
What suprises me is that so many seem to think that every living thing requires ongoing immaterial “assistance” to remain living, minute by minute, and that the laws of physics and chemistry are not sufficient to sustain life once it is in existence.
Patrick asks:
I may be missing something…but exactly who believes this?
Patrick, Unless I am misinterpreting their comments, five people on this thread alone hold such a view. BarryA:
In my experiment the non-living matter has every single building block of life readily to hand. Unlike present origin of life research, no one has to conjure up any critical ingredients through convenient assumptions. The only thing that is missing is the mysterious “anima” of living things.
SatyaMevaJayate:
...or they can take a puppy & cut the vital arteries… & freeze it for 10 days to preserve the state…then defreeze it & rejoin the arteries… technically it should be again begin to work if we are a machine…
gpuccio:
I am personally convinced that life is more than mere biological machinery...I think that, in some way, the statement that “biological building blocks put together with a certain kind of complexity generate life” is very similar to the fundamental belief of Strong AI theory, that “simpler blocks of software put together with a certain kind of complexity generate consciousness”. I believe neither.
Tribune7:
If life is just a chemical reaction –as per abiogenesis advocates — then having the DNA molecules ready-to-go would simplify their project you would think. Just heat and serve. Give the cadaver a jolt from your electrodes and he’ll be doing the Monster Mash.
Paul Nelson:
[Deamer's] thought experiment about killing a modern cell is meant to illustrate the functional necessity of isolating membranes, but arguably it entails much more than that. [I have also seen Nelson making vitalistic arguments elsewhere, though I don't have a reference. Paul, if I'm misrepresenting your views, please correct me.]
Karl Pfluger
September 15, 2006
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Tom, Sorry to lay into you about quote mining. Thank you, I do appreciate that. But I think you mean "alleged quote mining". NAS: “Will we ever be able to identify the path of chemical evolution that succeeded in initiating life on Earth?” Charlie: “Note the assumption that there is such a path.” Tom: There is no such assumption. The NAS piece also mentions the hypothesis that life did not originate on earth. Of course there is such an assumption. The path of chemical evolution succeeded in initiating life on Earth, according to the question itself. The question did not ask, "if there is a path...", or "presuming such a path..." It didn't refer to a 'hypothetical path', nor a 'possible path', but the path And Mars? NAS:The recent speculation includes the possibility that the first living cells might have arisen on Mars, seeding Earth via the many meteorites that are known to travel from Mars to our planet. In this scenario the path of chemical evolution occurred on Mars, where the "first living cells might have arisen", by (according to the first sentence of the paragraph) "the path of chemical evolution". The result? Life on Earth was initiated by the seeding of this life, which evolved from chemicals, confirming, of course, according to a prior paragraph, that life must have evolved from non-life. Tom:My original claim stands: Scientists acknowledge that the origin of life on earth is a mystery. I didn't notice this to be your claim. I do not dispute this claim. I was responding to your comment #35: No scientist has inferred anything about the origin of life on earth. Of course my simple quote, and our further investigation, reveals that at least the NAS-authored book does demonstrate such inferences.Charlie
September 14, 2006
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j regarding 67, I\'m not sure what your point is. If you read my whole comment it is evident that I agree with you.BarryA
September 14, 2006
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NAS: "Will we ever be able to identify the path of chemical evolution that succeeded in initiating life on Earth?" Charlie: "Note the assumption that there is such a path." There is no such assumption. The NAS piece also mentions the hypothesis that life did not originate on earth. My original claim stands: Scientists acknowledge that the origin of life on earth is a mystery. Sorry to lay into you about quote mining.Tom English
September 14, 2006
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Karl Pfluger:
"It doesn’t surprise me that ID supporters think the origin of life, or of particular biological structures, required the intervention of an intelligence. What suprises me is that so many seem to think that every living thing requires ongoing immaterial “assistance” to remain living, minute by minute, and that the laws of physics and chemistry are not sufficient to sustain life once it is in existence.
From a biblical point of view, this is the correct position to take. But this is a philosophical/theological position that is perhaps motivated by those ID supporters who are actually Creationists. Now, if you were to ask me, "Can anything 'live' without God's active participation?", the answer would be "no". But that is because everyone's "primary substance", our "being," not only comes from God, but, apart from God, cannot continue to exist. Again: philosophical/theological. The question of whether the Designer (here let's just assume that it is God) can intervene in the laws of physics and chemistry without detection is a very complicated one. If we deny this possibility entirely, then we have completely ruled out the possibility of 'miracles', which is, of course, the position that historically the Rationalists took. This is, in my opnion, an absurd position. Leaving this position to the one side, there remains the question of whether God can intervene without being detected. My answer to that is: it all depends. If God chooses to be detected, then He is; and if not, then He isn't. Now, the final question is: did God--that is, the Designer--intervene, in time (temporally), to personally bring about the progressive changes detected in living organisms. My personal answer to this is "yes"; but if you ask if that intervention can be definitively detected by science, my answer would be "no". In other words, I don't believe we'll ever find a DNA sequence, for example, that, translated, says, "I did this. Signed God." (Just like I don't think we'll ever find a mammal fossil in the middle of the Devonian.) Now, does that invalidate the efforts of ID? No. Why? Because the goal of ID theorists--as oppossed to the broad spectrum of ID enthusiasts--is to make a logical argument demonstrating that the Darwinian mechanism of RM+NS cannot explain the "progressive" evolution documented by the fossil record; and, that biological phenomena, in its complexity, due to the heirarchical information that it contains, is best explained by a "Design Inference." Why is this important? Because it's important to have the right tools to work with when you are searching for answers. Would this turn evolutionary biology upside down? I don't think so. It would create a theoretical lacuna, and would force biologists to explain their results using different language, but I imagine that the current work going on inside of laboratories would continue on just the same as now. A little long-winded here, but I wanted to give you a full answer to the wonderment you expressed over what ID supporters think that.PaV
September 14, 2006
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Tom, I generally find your comments here helpful and informative but I find your accusation of quote-mining a little disconcerting and uncalled for. For your information, I got the quote from here: http://www.asa3.org/asa/education/origins/public2.htm but thanks for the reference. The quote:
    For those who are studying the origin of life, the question is no longer whether life could have originated by chemical processes involving nonbiological components. The question instead has become which of many pathways might have been followed to produce the first cells.
stands alone, set off from all the other paragraphs. It is intended, as it stands, to make the statement that it makes. Which you have parsed for us:
Now let’s parse the passage you quoted (with emphasis merited by context): “For those who are studying the origin of life, the question is no longer whether life COULD HAVE originated by chemical processes involving nonbiological components. The question instead has become which of many pathways MIGHT HAVE BEEN followed to produce the first cells.” Read the passage in context, and pay attention to the hedges, and it says little but that origins researchers do not despair of finding natural explanations for the origin of life.
Yes, exactly, Tom. The question is which pathway might have been followed. There is no question but that there is such a pathway, but only a question as to which one is correct. No, I think it says not what you claim. What other inferences are made in that page to which you’ve so kindly linked?
These early organisms must have been simpler than the organisms living today. Furthermore, before the earliest organisms there must have been structures that one would not call "alive" but that are now components of living things.
Life must have been simpler, and must have arsien from non-life. These appear to be inferences about the origin of life. They also seem to be claims. And to what do we owe these inferences? Apparently to the fact that we believe that life originated from non-life and that evolution proceeds from simple to complex. Just the things we keep being told on this forum that Darwinists do not claim. The very next line of the page, from which you claim I’ve quote-mined, asks the question:
Will we ever be able to identify the path of chemical evolution that succeeded in initiating life on Earth?
Note the assumption that there is such a path. Not, “maybe there is a path, and we’d like to find out what is”, but “there IS such a path of chemical evolution which SUCCEEDED in initiating life on earth.” Thanks for your help highlighting this question.Charlie
September 14, 2006
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Patrick, I think that Karl is either ill informed or disingenuous. My guess is that he is ill informed.jerry
September 14, 2006
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BarryA (hypothetically) @21: " 2. Human intelligence must be reducible to the physical properties of the brain, which is nothing more than an organic computer (someone has called it “smart meat”), and consciousness is an illusion." P1: Chance and necessity alone cannot produce CSI. P2: Human thought routinely produces CSI. C: Human thought is not the result of only chance and necessity. :grin:j
September 14, 2006
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What suprises me is that so many seem to think that every living thing requires ongoing immaterial “assistance” to remain living, minute by minute, and that the laws of physics and chemistry are not sufficient to sustain life once it is in existence.
I may be missing something...but exactly who believes this?Patrick
September 14, 2006
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"Frozen cells and seeds are, definitely, not dead. They are a completely different thing." What would happen if you cut a frozen cell in half but kept the two halves frozen? Is it now dead, or does it not die until you thaw it? What happens to the soul or anima (or whatever) while the cell is frozen. Is it bored and/or cold?steveh
September 14, 2006
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In Comment #8 Houdin writes: "First: Berlinski’s piece is dated 2006, yet he doesn’t even mention the idea that life probably started under the surface of the earth? I’m sure he’s heard the idea, it’s the current rage in science." In fact, Berlinski mentions it at length in his response to his critics in the “Letters to the Editor” section of Commentary Magazine (May 2006). There, the physicist Lawrence M. Krauss criticized Berlinski for ignoring “the wealth of new data on a wonderful reducing environment associated with thermal vents at the bottom of the sea.” Berlinski mentions German organic chemist Gunter Wachtershauser who promoted that idea (which first appeared in Science 1979) by “imagining a rich series of inorganic catalytic reactions that might have taken place in such environments. A number of distinct …chemical ideas were put in play, the most notable involving iron pyrite acting to promote cyclic chemical reactions among carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen. But experiments did not produce a significant yield of crucial biological molecules, and critics (like Gerald Joyce) have complained that some of the experiments themselves were carried out under unrealistic laboratory conditions. Matthew Levy and Stanley Miller have argued in addition that, although a ‘high-temperature origin of life may be possible,’ it ‘cannot involve adenine, uracil, guanine, or cytosine’ – because, at such temperatures, these molecules are notoriously unstable.” Berlinski goes on to say that the iron-sulphur world scenario is neither new nor wonderful and that it is in conflict with the dominant theory to which his original article in Commentary was devoted, the RNA world scenario. Regarding Wachtershauser’s ideas, Hubert Yockey, in “Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life” writes that “it shares with other speculations the idea that life is just complicated mechanistic chemistry. I have not found any reference to the handedness of amino acids and the ribose sugars DNA and mRNA. It appears to be ‘proteins first’…and of course that is prohibited by the Central Dogma. He does not address adequately the generation of complexity and of the genetic code…[and]…believes that the information metaphor has led to the unfortunate prejudice that life must have started with a polymer sequence.” Quoting Wachtershauser: “By my theory, life would then have started with analog information and it would have ‘invented’ digital information later…The theory of biological evolution is an historic theory. If we could ever trace this historic process backwards far enough in time, we would wind up with an origin of life in purely chemical processes.” To which Yockey responds: “Speculations based on the formation of sequences of molecules directly on the surfaces of minerals face the problem of the Guru and the two-headed coin*. An unbelievably enormous number of sequences must be formed in order to find the ones that form the minimal essential genome of the first living organism…” Earlier in this book, Yockey writes that all proteins-first theories violate Crick’s Central Dogma and should therefore be rejected on that account; for it’s mathematically not possible for an alphabet of 20 (amino acids) to code for an alphabet of 64 (codons). [*A practical man and a True Believer watch the latter’s Guru toss a coin 100 times. In under two hours, the Guru generates a sequence of all heads. The practical man suspects a two-headed coin; the True Believer believes that his Guru has merely randomly selected 1 possible sequence out of all 2^100 sequences.]filmGrain
September 14, 2006
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Barry writes:
I don’t understand this statement. You seem to be saying you are surprised that people who post and comment on a web site devoted to ID theory would suggest that life cannot be explained simply in terms of the unfolding of the laws of physics and chemistry.
Barry, It doesn't surprise me that ID supporters think the origin of life, or of particular biological structures, required the intervention of an intelligence. What suprises me is that so many seem to think that every living thing requires ongoing immaterial "assistance" to remain living, minute by minute, and that the laws of physics and chemistry are not sufficient to sustain life once it is in existence. That's why I specified that I was talking about life as an ongoing phenomenon:
I’m quite surprised to see so many folks suggesting that life (as an ongoing phenomenon, setting aside the question of origins for now) cannot be explained simply in terms of the unfolding of the laws of physics and chemistry.
Those who lean toward front-loading theories generally believe that once the front-loaded progenitor was created, it was allowed to develop "hands-off". Also, don't forget that some front-loading advocates believe the "front-loader" could have been a non-supernatural intelligence, in which case it could not provide an ongoing "life force" to animate its design.Karl Pfluger
September 14, 2006
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tinabrewer wrote: "Even if we could get all of the correct chemicals and other necessary stuff (I’m obviously a scientist, pardon the lofty jargon) into a tube and watch it start generating self-replicating molecules, this still would not in any way show that the process was unguided by intelligence." Hi Tina, It depends on what you mean by "unguided". If you mean "strictly following the laws of physics and chemistry", then any inteference by a supernatural intelligence should in principle be detectable as violations of those laws. If, on the other hand, you propose that there is no violation of the laws of physics and chemistry, but rather that the laws themselves are designed to promote the appearance of self-replicating systems, then you're correct that this is indistinguishable from the materialist view, at least until we determine where the laws come from and whether this process could reasonably have been expected to produce the laws we see today.Karl Pfluger
September 14, 2006
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Karl Pfluger writes: “but I’m quite surprised to see so many folks suggesting that life (as an ongoing phenomenon, setting aside the question of origins for now) cannot be explained simply in terms of the unfolding of the laws of physics and chemistry.” I don’t understand this statement. You seem to be saying you are surprised that people who post and comment on a web site devoted to ID theory would suggest that life cannot be explained simply in terms of the unfolding of the laws of physics and chemistry. Let me get this straight. You are surprised that people who, by definition, believe that life cannot be explained simply in terms of the unfolding of the laws of physics and chemistry would suggest that life cannot be explained simply in terms of the unfolding of the laws of physics and chemistry. This one really leaves me scratching my head wondering what I am missing.BarryA
September 14, 2006
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Paul Nelson wrote: "In a major review paper a few years ago, UC-Santa Cruz abiogenesis researcher David Deamer proposed just the experiment described by Barry above." Hi Paul, The problem with Deamer's experiment is that it is really just a variation of Hoyle's "tornado in a junkyard" argument, without the tornado. Deamer: 1. Take a bunch of cells. 2. Disassemble them into their component parts. 3. Add nutrients. 4. Wait for life to arise. Hoyle a la Deamer: 1. Take a 747. 2. Disassemble it into a big pile of parts. 3. Douse the whole thing with jet fuel. 4. Wait for it to fly away. The pile may not fly away, but that does not mean it lacks an immaterial "flight force" that graces working airplanes. Neither does Deamer's experiment suggest that his pile of cell parts is missing its "anima" (to use Barry's term) or its "vital force". It is simply not organized correctly. Barry's experiment is less disruptive than Deamer's, in that the major parts of the cell do not get mechanically separated and scrambled before the reanimation attempt. Nevertheless, the process of killing the cell thoroughly disrupts its organization at the molecular level, and the effect is the same. You end up trying to reanimate a cell which is not put together the same way as a living cell. Hoyle a la BarryA would look like this: 1. Take a 747. 2. Leave the large scale structure intact. 3. Pop some rivets, run the battery run down, reconnect a bunch of the wires, rust out the hydraulics, and let the fuel evaporate. 4. Try to fly the plane away. It won't happen, but again, there's no big mystery. The pieces may be in place at the macro level, but the plane is in disarray at the micro level. It is not organized in the same way as a "living" plane. P.S. This thread has been an eye-opener. I had no idea there were still so many vitalists around in the 21st century. Explaining consciousness or intelligence by recourse to the immaterial is still common, but I'm quite surprised to see so many folks suggesting that life (as an ongoing phenomenon, setting aside the question of origins for now) cannot be explained simply in terms of the unfolding of the laws of physics and chemistry.Karl Pfluger
September 14, 2006
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Show me the design inference. I want to see the data The amino acid sequence of protein AAC73539.1: Its translation=MQVSVETTQGLGRRVTITIAADSIETAVKSELVNVAKKVRIDGF RKGKVPMNIVAQRYGASVRQDVLGDLMSRNFIDAIIKEKINPAGAPTYVPGEYKLGED FTYSVEFEVYPEVELQGLEAIEVEKPIVEVTDADVDGMLDTLRKQQATWKEKDGAVEA EDRVTIDFTGSVDGEEFEGGKASDFVLAMGQGRMIPGFEDGIKGHKAGEEFTIDVTFP EEYHAENLKGKAAKFAINLKKVEERELPELTAEFIKRFGVEDGSVEGLRAEVRKNMER ELKSAIRNRVKSQAIEGLVKANDIDVPAALIDSEIDVLRRQAAQRFGGNEKQALELPR ELFEEQAKRRVVVGLLLGEVIRTNELKADEERVKGLIEEMASAYEDPKEVIEFYSKNK ELMDNMRNVALEEQAVEAVLAKAKVTEKETTFNELMNQQApk4_paul
September 14, 2006
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Charlie, You mined your quote from a passage that essentially says that scientists have many ideas about the origin of life on earth, but that none of them has gained empirical support. Here is your Missing Link: http://darwin.nap.edu/html/creationism/origin.html "Scientists have concluded that the 'building blocks of life' could have been available early in Earth's history." Not "were," but "could have been." How many qualified claims have you seen in the ID literature? "Some scientists favor the hypothesis..." Only some scientists? Merely a hypothesis? Don't scientists jump directly to the claim of having a theory, the way IDists do? How do the NAS atheists expect to win the cultural war with such a wimpy stance? "Scientists are designing experiments and speculating... The recent speculation includes..." Speculating!!! The NAS admits not merely that scientists studying the origin of life have only hypotheses, but that some are speculating? Now let's parse the passage you quoted (with emphasis merited by context): "For those who are studying the origin of life, the question is no longer whether life COULD HAVE originated by chemical processes involving nonbiological components. The question instead has become which of many pathways MIGHT HAVE BEEN followed to produce the first cells." Read the passage in context, and pay attention to the hedges, and it says little but that origins researchers do not despair of finding natural explanations for the origin of life.Tom English
September 14, 2006
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pk4_paul: "The inference is based on existing data." Show me the design inference. I want to see the data, and I want to see the computation of complex specified information (see "Specification," by Bill Dembski).Tom English
September 14, 2006
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Tom English There is plenty of empirical data by which to test origin theories. See: "Facts for Biotic Theories" at "Facts for Biotic Theories" at ResearchID.org http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/Facts_for_Biotic_Theories Current atelic theories appear a bit stretched to satisfactorly account for or predict these facts. Abiogenesis in particular appears to be the "Achilles heel" of evolution. Without abiogenesis, no evolution. Berlinski only mentions a few of the more obvious factors needed for self replicating self sustaining cell. ny "minimal genome" must be able to process sunlight or natural biochemicals ("tar"). The question is: Can telic theories from “reverse engineering biotic systems” improve on atelic theories? "David L. Hagen's Reseach Questions"DLH
September 14, 2006
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