Intelligent Design Video

New Cellular Animation: Journey Inside the Cell

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Dr. Stephen Meyer, author of Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design, narrates a new video illustrating evidence for intelligent design within the cell.  This excellent new video illustrates aspects of the role of information in the cell including protein synthesis.

From Evolution News and Views:

“This video is going to make things worse for critics of intelligent design,” Dr. Meyer explains. “They will have more difficulty convincing the public that their eyes are deceiving them when the evidence for design literally unfolds before them in this animation.”

Narrated by Meyer, the video is a short tour of the molecular labyrinth, the cell’s sophisticated information-processing system, which not only produces machines, but also reproduces itself.

70 Replies to “New Cellular Animation: Journey Inside the Cell

  1. 1
    bornagain77 says:

    This video is simply excellent in detail,,,

  2. 2
    MeganC says:

    Is the actual evidence for design in part 2?

  3. 3
    GilDodgen says:

    Dear Megan,
    Are we going to be treated to evidence of how this came about without design in your next post?

  4. 4
    DATCG says:

    Good quality. Is this on Youtube? Should be, as well as other major video sites. Twitter too.

    This short clip had a speeding up of ribosome actions and amino acid sequencing. A small suggestion. This is good. Speed it up real-time. Warn the viewer, give the actual nanoseconds and microsecond times of each action(or total time elapsed), then show it slo-mo, half-speed, then real-time.

    Show error correction slo-mo, then speed up in increments to realtime editing and correction.

    Most people have no idea how fast these processes are in functional exchanges between each networked area, communication and physical interactions for detection, reading, creation and signals.

    People get use to slow motion details on TV or movies, like a baseball pitch replay for example. However, if they were the actual batter or umpire, they’d understand the difficulty of calling strikes/balls of a 95mph fastball cutter, an 85mph slider, or 78mph curve ball.

    Now imagine trying to hit one.

    This is what unfolds in our trillions of cells daily. Nanoscale/Nanosecond/Microsecond accuracy of a batter knocking a grandslam(99.999/hundred times) out of the park bottom of the 9th, with 2 outs in the 7th game of the world series. This simple analogy fails in one way. When this batter in a cell misses? It requeues the ball as if this is childs play in t-ball little league and hits amino acid out of the park again. In baseball, the batter strikes out. In the cell, amino acids are edited all the time for accuracy.

    As a suggestion show the process real time. Prepare the viewer, show slow motion, speed up by half, then real time. Most people will be floored at the speed of the process and how much the graphic artist has slowed down these processes.

    Great job guys!

  5. 5
    FreshVoice says:

    #4
    Excellent suggestion. The speed at which this happens is incredible… approximately 1800 bases per second for RNA polymerase II, the enzyme that transcribes mRNA. Or better, about 30 bases per second, faster than most video frame rates!
    Excellent video!

  6. 6
    FreshVoice says:

    #5… oops 1800 bases per minute (not second)

  7. 7
    DATCG says:

    BTW…

    Looking for examples of how fast these operations take place within the cell and scientific inquiry I found an interesting site.

    Nanoseconds for cell entry.

    It takes a 20Terraflop Cray to simulate the Cell Gates

    The scientist involved in the simulations comment:

    The life sciences, says Klaus Schulten, are moving on to bigger things. When it comes to understanding processes in living systems at the molecular level, it’s become possible — thanks to technology such as the Cray XT3 — to look at very large systems, of which the nuclear pore is one example. “The XT3,” says Schulten, “is a terrific computer platform for this new generation of work.”

    Encouraged by success with the NPC, Schulten has (as of late August 2006) begun to use his powerful software NAMD on PSC’s XT3 to simulate the ribosome. This huge aggregate protein-RNA assembly is a cellular factory that reads the genetic blueprint from messenger RNA and uses it to manufacture proteins. “It’s possible to do this now with the XT3.”

    Schulten’s MD simulations of the ribosome (2.7 million atoms) are using NAMD with 1,000 XT3 processors — unprecedented large-scale parallelism for molecular dynamics.

    Because of the XT3’s fast inter-processor communication, NAMD can use the entire system efficiently, 2,000 processors, for a single simulation. “This is just the right system for this kind of project,” says Schulten. “If you have a tennis racquet, it has a sweet spot where you can hit best, and for this project the sweet spot is the entire XT3 at Pittsburgh.”


    Big Ben –

    Cray XT3 20 Terraflop MPP – Massively Parallel Processor

    A simulation of a nanoscale processer(cellular functions like Ribosomes or Cell entry) running in nanoseconds that must decrypt passing mRna, tRna, etc., requires a 20 Terraflop Mega Fast Parallel processing device that takes the best engineers in the world to create.

    Why? Why so much processing power is required for cellular technology? Ooops, there’s the rub – “technology” – in the cell, a signature of technology and motors, communicators, translators, editors, feedback loops, and transporters.

    All a mutated, unguided process? A process that in this video narrated by Meyer mentions gateway keepers that require screening of information and agents to pass into the cell.

    So what was first? The Password gated entry? Or the transport with a password?

    How did anything transport into a cell before a Gatekeeper entry system existed without killing the cell? Or, damaging it, mutating it to the point of reproductionless cellular gloop?

    Truth is no one knows, can’t explain it, except for…

    Accidents Did “It.”

    That is the Darwinist answer.

    Accidents happen, or in the PZ Meyers vernacular of teaching his students, horse____ happens.

    They think as one of the materialist accidents this is a better answer than intelligence did it. Why? There’s no evidence in these simulations of accidents. None. Ramdom mutations for what? For a Keyed entry system? Or the entry transport? Both at the same time? How long before the cell dies while it is waiting on the correct alignment of 2.7million atoms?

    Their answer(s) are no better than the IDist, they infer an accidentall beginning because in the beginning they didn’t know any better than to repeat darwin.

    Times changing with new technology, mega computers, etc., now to understand and “reverse engineer” engineered systems is the way forward.

    This does not even get into the signaling systems for the calls between cells and different processes.

  8. 8
    DATCG says:

    Correction, the simulation was about binding sites, several nanoseconds to bind.

    But watch how they run the simulation and after binding takes place.

    There is another movie they created for the simulation of gateway entry into the nucleus here:

    See Movie: Bouncer of the Nucleus

    or click on the Purple Bouncer Monster pic for movie half way down the page.

  9. 9
    DATCG says:

    FreshVoice,

    Cool… didn’t see your post.

    And the nanoscale size is actually measured in Angstroms, .1 nanometers. less than a billionth of a meter.

    Curious to see how they did with the Ribosome.

  10. 10
    Nakashima says:

    Mr DATCG,

    Anyone with a modern graphics card or a PS3 can join Folding@Home and participate in this kind of research! It is a great way to contribute spare cycles to science.

  11. 11
    IRQ Conflict says:

    I’m folding on two dual core and a quad core as well as a GPU.

    You can still fold using the CPU it is just not a effective. Best to decrease the size of your work units in those cases to make sure you don’t blow the deadline in time sensitive WU’s.

  12. 12
    DATCG says:

    Nakashima,

    Yes, familiar with it and other shared sites in astronomy, etc., for over a decade now.

    Long before the internet existed in the public domain, TI was ahead of the curve before most were in business or an apple in a garage. Shared processing was routine by TI engineers. They had their own network. Unfortunately did not sell as a product. It was lovely to watch programs running on other machines, spitting out data points and chip diagrams, etchings, etc.

    Oddly enough, another Texan didn’t miss the boat. The idea of using idle computer systems started in Texas before the PC market was born. It wasn’t as dynamic, but the idea was far ahead of its time and made billions for the man.

    A little guy named Ross Perot, who created EDS and rescued his employees from terrorist in Tehran. Sold EDS to GM for over 2 billion, then started a new company making multi-billions as Perot Systems competing against EDS now worldwide.

    I admire his tenacity, perseverance and discipline. He kept on GM so much about their inefficient business processes that the majority owners/directors became so irate, they bought his chair back for almost another billion.

    What a bunch of idiots. If they had listened to him, American tax payors would not be suffering now.

    And that is the rest of the story.

    You’ll still have to explain to me the intuitive part of shared computer processing to model and reverse engineer an undesigned, unguided macro evolutionary system. This isn’t rainy day algorithms.

  13. 13
    Oramus says:

    Well, I don’t know about anyone else. But to think that i have billions of these cells doing mind-boggling assembly work to allow me to express me is just ______ !

    But yes, I know, that is just an argument from incredulity.

    Deep time and infinite chances (both of which I can’t observe) are the real designers.

    It is strange though that I am not able to observe deep time and chance. I wonder why they won’t show themselves?

    Hello?!

    😛

  14. 14
    CannuckianYankee says:

    DATCG. re: #4

    Great Suggestion. A nonosecond-length video would be hard to comprehend. It would be interesting to see it repeated continually over say a few minutes to get an idea of the speed and volume of these interactions. It would be mesmerizing, I’m sure.

  15. 15
    William J. Murray says:

    It seems to me that materialists wish to have their theory – that all of this can be accomplished by chance and/or necessity – without ever having demonstrated that probability theory supports this view.

    They just invoke chance and deep time “as if” it can be scientifically expected to do anything. Apparently, most believers in Darwinian Evolution don’t realize how intractable the problem is that chance and necessity must overcome to produce even a single functional protein of moderate length, much less the factory of interdependent, organized protein nano-technology we find at work in the cell.

  16. 16
    William J. Murray says:

    If you haven’t gotten Signature in the Cell yet, I advise that you do, whatever side of the debate you are on.

    If you are intellectually honest about the ID debate and are skeptical about ID, it will eliminate a lot of the need for constantly rebutting weak anti-ID arguments.

    I knew the argument for design was strong, but frankly, Meyer knocks it out of the ballpark. Not only is ID sound science – as he successfully proves from historical, empirical and philosophical perspectives – but it is also the only current theory that adequately (or even remotely) explains the information found in DNA. Nothing else (chance, necessity) even comes close.

  17. 17
    kairosfocus says:

    WJM:

    Just 1,000 bits of information capacity has in it so many potential configurations that the whole observed universe, acting across its thermodynamically credible lifespan and changing state every 10^-43 s [the Planck time], would not be able to sample 1 in 10^150 of the possible configs.

    the simplest observed life forms, just off their DNA alone, store over 600 k bits of information.

    THAT is why those who want to suggest t hat the available time and resources of he universe are enough to make life’s spontaneous origin likely, are not willing to allow you to think through the real probabilities implied by the specified complexity of life.

    It is also why they are so desperate to separate the issue of the origin of life from its claimed macro-evolution. But, for major body plans to originate — and the survival of the “fittest” is dependent on the prior ARRIVAL of same — we credibly are looking at increments in DNA of order 10’s – 100’s of Millions of bits.

    So, the real issue is not to sniff dismissively that hose who object are being “incredulous,” butt hart those who propose the claims are ducking answering tot he search space challenge.

    Of course, intelligences routinely produce FSCI of that magnitude and more.

    GEM of TKI

  18. 18
    William J. Murray says:

    It’s interesting that the argument that the mind is nothing more than an accumulation of chance/necessity sequences is factually contradicted (as much as anything can be via science) by the ability to write a paragraph asserting that it is.

  19. 19
    Lenoxus says:

    It’s interesting that the argument that the mind is nothing more than the product of creation by unknown extra-natural forces is factually contradicted (as much as anything can be via science) by the ability to write a paragraph asserting that it is.

    The mind can only be material. It can’t be immaterially based. How do I know? Because I know.

    Whee!

  20. 20
    PaulN says:

    I’m so stealing that argument from you for future use KF. Well said!

  21. 21
    Overburden says:

    The body and mind are material, the activity within biochemical – nothing mechanical about any of it.
    The activity in the brain, by which we reason and wonder, is electrical, a massive synaptic exchange. Thinking, thought, ideation, virtually all conceptualization associated with the animal, are never ‘contained’ within.
    To suggest that this fugitive identity has some escape venue for surviving the collapse of its support system – the animated body – would suggest an event that would require the ‘individual’ to exist outside the physiology of its host.
    What science suggests there is the possibility to survive the body?

  22. 22
    Gods iPod says:

    Stephen, audio book version PLEASE…

  23. 23
    Nakashima says:

    Mr IRQ Conflict,

    Very cool! I’m folding on my home PC, quad core and two GPUs. Dell was selling it as a gaming platform. I think I’m getting about 8,000 PPD out of it.

  24. 24
    William J. Murray says:

    Perhaps this study of NDE’s published in The Lancet:

    http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf

    Not to mention William Crookes research in the 1800’s published in the Journal of Science, the published research done at the University of Arizona’s Veritas project; the published research from the Windbridge Institute; the Scole Experiment, the Afterlife Experiemnts, and the research carried out at Princeton’s PEAR labs?

  25. 25
    William J. Murray says:

    #24 was in response to #21.

  26. 26
    bornagain77 says:

    Overburden asks:

    What science suggests there is the possibility to survive the body?

    There are a few very intriguing evidences:

    The Day I Died – Part 4 of 6 – The NDE of Pam Reynolds – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA37uNa3VGU

    Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw0lNh7NVb0

    Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported being able to see during their NDEs. 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. In all, 15 of the 21 NDEers and 9 of the 10 OBEers could see during their experience while the remaining participants either claimed that they did not see or were not sure whether or not they had seen.

    The Gallup poll in 1992 was of U.S. adults, and found 5% had a NDE: .05 = (number of those surveyed with a prior history of NDE)/(total number surveyed). That equates to 15 million of a population of 300 million

    A Reply to Shermer – Medical Evidence For NDEs – Pim van Lommel M.D.
    Excerpt: as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body.

    The Mind and Materialist Superstition – Six “conditions of mind” that are irreconcilable with materialism:
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....super.html

    Removing Half of Brain (Hemispherectomies) Improves Young Epileptics’ Lives – article
    Excerpt: “We are awed by the apparent retention of the child’s memory after removal of half of the brain, either half; and by the retention of the child’s personality and sense of humor.” Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining of Johns Hopkins University
    http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08.....lives.html

  27. 27
    Overburden says:

    William – thank you for responding.
    I’m familiar with much of the ‘evidence’ provided by the ‘near death experience’ and have reviewed some, not all, of the research you suggested – all unsatisfactorily inconclusive. Now I’m not suggesting there is an answer, just curious, but what would you suggest takes place?

  28. 28
    bornagain77 says:

    A Small Glimpse At The Preponderance Of Negative Near Death Experiences Being Found In Foreign, Non-Judeo-Christian, Cultures:

    Near-Death Experiences in Thailand:
    Excerpt: The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of `going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. (Murphy 99)
    http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm

    Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999:
    Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient.

    The Japanese find death a depressing experience – From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991)
    Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing ‘tunnels of light’ or having ‘out of body’ experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled ‘dreams’, many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering.

    One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. ‘Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.’

    Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. ‘It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.’

    Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before.

    etc..etc..etc…

    From all concise studies I’ve, whether materialistic in orientation or not, It is by far more desirable to have a NDE in Judeo-Christian cultures which of course heavily suggests, some sort of basic belief in God/Christ.

    In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRpbNgBn8XY

    and of course let’s not forget the testimony to life after death witnessed by the Shroud:

    Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words “The Lamb” – short video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XLcdaFKzYg

    Even with the advantage of all our advanced space-age technology at their fingertips, all scientists can guess is that it was some type of electro-magnetic radiation (light) which is not natural to this world. Kevin Moran, a scientist working on the mysterious “3-dimensional” nature of the Shroud image, states the ‘supernatural’ explanation this way:

    “It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was “lifted cleanly” from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state.”

  29. 29
    MeganC says:

    kairosfocus,

    I heard that you invented FCSI/FSCI and I understand that the ‘F’ stands for ‘functional’. So I was just wondering if this renders the information part of the original CSI concept, as invented by Dr Dembksi, as non-functional?

  30. 30
    Overburden says:

    I’m not convinced there isn’t an ‘avenue’ to another consciousness, or that there is, I only suggest that there must be better methods for researching this possibility than relying on testimony from various samplings of the culturally affected. I consider all such ‘reporting’ dubious at best. It may provide information for psychologists, but adds nothing to biological inquiry.
    The wish to live beyond this short term on planet earth can be a powerfully delusional concept for many fearing mortality, but not as much so for the intellectual and/or the religious. Faith shields one from what could possibly be an ugly, empty event. Information and knowledge also cushion the blow by fashioning reasonable acceptance.

  31. 31
    bornagain77 says:

    Well,
    Overburden I’ve spent a little time investigating this very issue. I consider the evidence I presented very strong in fact. Yet you consider the testimony of others dubious. Thus I suggest you seek a personal encounter with Christ so that you may personally know.

    Revelation 3:20
    Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

  32. 32
    Overburden says:

    I have a friend, an anesthesiologist, well into his 60’s – been at the table for decades – who has ‘brought back’ an unimaginable number of he ‘dead’. It is very common for trauma victims, to ‘die’ during procedures. Their heart stops and remains so for several minutes, some for an hour and more. This is not that uncommon within a population of billions.
    Of these ‘revived’ millions, very few recollect witnessing any alternative dimension. This doesn’t prove anything but seriously dilutes the pool of experiences, so much so that there is strong evidence that the experience is more about the unconscious than it is about ‘other life’ events.

  33. 33
    Overburden says:

    bornagain77
    Thank you for your information.
    I’m only looking for new sources of information that don’t involve personal accounts or are faith based. I assure you I have enough of both.
    Science blogs are great resources and that is why I am here, not to discredit anyone. I do feel I have the right to share my opinion – respectfully of course.

  34. 34
    William J. Murray says:

    Overburden:

    In #21 you asked: “What science suggests there is the possibility to survive the body?”

    Several people including myself have provided science that suggests – not conclusively proves, but suggests – that there is the possibility that consciousness can exist outside of the body – i.e., survive its demise.

    You ask in #27 what I believe is going on; I believe that the consciousness of some people survives death.

  35. 35
    bornagain77 says:

    Well,
    Overburden, Von Lommel’s study is at 18%, and the Morse “Seattle Study showed over 90% NDE for children,,, something tells me there is a lot more going on than meets the eye,,, non-the-less I have laid out fairly strong evidence for you to peruse:

    Here is something else you may want to look at:

    Miracle Testimony – One Easter Sunday Sunrise Service – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj0L5dwuX0g

  36. 36
    Overburden says:

    William
    You ask in #27 what I believe is going on; I believe that the consciousness of some people survives death.

    Why ‘some’?

  37. 37
    bornagain77 says:

    Overburden:
    May I suggest this reasoned discourse:

    The Mind and Materialist Superstition – Six “conditions of mind” that are irreconcilable with materialism:
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....super.html

  38. 38
    DATCG says:

    CYankee,

    LOL… mesmerizing, good one :).

    “All you amino acids are belong to us”

    The point is to show the process, not just one step, but an entire process at realtime. Obviously you have to consider our ability to see it. But the good point can be made even by showing the beginning and end points, then step by step nanosecond process as it moves with highlights as time ticks off.

    Maybe even make an interactive flash presentation. Where the user is in control of stepping through it and controlling speed. The Flash movie could allow the user to branch off and come back and forth to different processes in the cell in order to understand the mutual workings of each individual component, network, building and signal structures or pathways.

  39. 39
    ScottAndrews says:

    Reading over this thread, I see that it took an abrupt turn. At 18 it was pointed out that the mind cannot be the result of random natural forces. At 19 the subject changed to whether the mind is material or immaterial. These are, of course, two unrelated issues. There is nothing about ID that requires an immaterial mind.

  40. 40
    Overburden says:

    bornagain77, thank you, but we’re still talking about studies and population samples.
    Eliciting rudimentary, cognitive information, supposedly streaming from the unconscious isn’t fact, it’s figment. Studying is fine, however observation is still nothing more than subjective, behavioral analysis – psychology.
    I am looking for something different – maybe it doesn’t exist – and I’m just asking questions.

  41. 41
    PaulN says:

    How about the NDE of Pamela Reynolds?

  42. 42
    William J. Murray says:

    Overburden asks in #36: “Why ’some’?”

    I think claiming that everyone’s consciousness survives death would be a case of overreaching. The evidence indicates that some people’s consciousness might survive death; it certainly doesn’t indicate that everyone’s does.

    Why should everyone’s consciousness survive death? Heck, it would be a stretch, IMO, to call most people who are living “conscious”.

  43. 43
    PaulN says:

    The videos for Pam Reynold’s NDE can be found here:

    Part 1

    Part 2

    The focus on her NDE cuts into the middle of the documentary as a whole, so you’ll have to excuse the small segment in part 1 before they actually start covering it. Her case is probably the most highly monitored case to date, as the monitoring happened while the actual NDE occured. Some key points to note are that she was completely dead- as in no heart function or brain function whatsoever, and during this period of time she was still able to observe in 3rd person the surgery being conducted on her own body as well as being able to quote some of the conversations going on between the surgeons.

  44. 44
    Overburden says:

    There is nothing about ID that requires an immaterial mind.
    With that said, why is it so difficult to navigate away from the near death conundrum. It’s irrelevant. You can collect or concoct such experiences forever and there will never be an adequate amount of conclusive evidence to support a theory – back to biology.

  45. 45
    Overburden says:

    Michael #36
    What do you believe determines survival? What physical attributes do you believe support such a transcendence?

  46. 46
    William J. Murray says:

    Overburden says in #40: “You can collect or concoct such experiences forever and there will never be an adequate amount of conclusive evidence to support a theory.”

    Why is that? Aren’t you presupposing that the phenomena isn’t real?

  47. 47
    Overburden says:

    In response to #46

    Of course the ‘phenomena’ is real, experientially, for each and every participant. It’s as real as this exchange is for you and me, but that doesn’t make any of it relative to the study of the material mind.
    Is it rational? Is it reasonable?

    To accept paranormal explanations is to ‘presuppose’ they are somehow conclusive, reliable and testable.

  48. 48
    bornagain77 says:

    Overburden:
    But why should you presuppose “material” to be rational, when quantum mechanics basically slam dunks every materialistic postulation put forth?

    As well don’t you find it a bit queer, from what we know to be true with 4-D space time cosmology, that the universe would found to be “centered” on each observer no matter where they are in the universe?

    —- In what I consider an absolutely fascinating discovery; Space itself was created in the Big Bang and continues to “expand equally in all places” i.e. The universe is not expanding “into” anything outside of itself. Thus from a 3-dimensional perspective, any particular “material” spot in the universe is to be considered just as “center of the universe” as any other particular spot in the universe is to be considered “center of the universe”.

    There Is No Three-Dimensional Center To This Universe – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_7Ta5igSEc

    Where is the centre of the universe?:
    Excerpt: There is no centre of the universe! According to the standard theories of cosmology, the universe started with a “Big Bang” about 14 thousand million years ago and has been expanding ever since. Yet there is no centre to the expansion; it is the same everywhere. The Big Bang should not be visualized as an ordinary explosion. The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places, as far as we can tell.
    http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/.....entre.html

    COBE – WMAP Satellites – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huaS_iSITQs

    Earth As The Center Of The Universe – image
    http://universe-review.ca/R02-16-universe.htm

    And Overburden to top all that off, don’t you find it even weirder that quantum mechanics tells us that all quantum events are integral, and even “centered”, on a observer?

    Why should the sub-atomic world of quantum mechanics center on each “individual observer?,,,Why should the universe center on each individual observer?,,,No Overburden you may pretend that materialism is true and deny any rational basis for consciousness from such presupposition, but as for myself I will follow what the evidence is screaming at me and believe that my consciousness does indeed have a very unique quality to it as has been endowed by my Creator and savior Jesus Christ.

  49. 49
    ShawnBoy says:

    There goes that Stephen Meyer trying to take science back to the dark ages again.

  50. 50
    William J. Murray says:

    #47:

    No, I mean, why can’t it be scientifically verified (at some point) that minds exist independent of physical bodies?

  51. 51
    AussieID says:

    ShawnBoy,

    The Dark Ages quip mightn’t be too far from the mark … although it is recognised that the Renaissance is where ‘science’ came alive, it was in the the unfortunately-named Dark Ages that the foundations were laid for that later science to blossom. the scientific method originated here as distinct from the philosophy.

    Maths, algebra, calculus and trigonometry were all advanced. Chemistry and surgery were also given sure platforms. Navigation and mechanics were also advanced markedly. There was a slow but sure revolution, building on the knowledge of the past.

    The ‘Dark’ aspect was the lack of recording for posterity. They didn’t stop, as such …

    So, Meyer, etal may be the vanguards of a new Renaissance, and that would be a good thing!

    Also, to the point made in the first posts, I agree that showing the speed at which these sequencing patterns occur would also highlight the marvel that this process is. I would also like to have shown in such animations how slightly different processes achieve different outcomes, all from within the confines of a cell.

    It’s amazing stuff, all this ‘totally unplanned, uncontrolled’ chemical reactions …

  52. 52
    Overburden says:

    #47
    Exactly!
    Would be nice to know, but how?
    The research into the paranormal doesn’t convince me, nor does it impress the greater science community, because there is no way to test any hypothesis. Your either dead or alive, and if your body is dead and your consciousness is suspended, there is no way by which to ‘collect’ evidence of the individual.
    To base a belief that such an event does occur requires either religious faith or the reliance on very speculative, subjective reports from a questionable population.
    Having faith doesn’t answer questions scientifically, but neither does the baloney being passed off as supernatural investigation.
    I do believe the answer is far more simple than we suspect, but impossible to accept.

  53. 53
    DATCG says:

    Scott,

    Yep, topic back on Signature in the Cell. Anyone read it yet?

    I’ve got a request in, waiting on library to stock it.

  54. 54
    Overburden says:

    bornagain #48
    Quantum mechanics tells us nothing of the sort. The ‘observables’ are merely the measurable properties, energy, momentum, so on, and the principle theory centers on matter and its various states of instability.
    But if you need to believe that to bolster you faith, I commend you.

  55. 55
    Overburden says:

    I must apologize for the off topic submissions – done.

  56. 56
    bornagain77 says:

    Overburden states in response to my assertion that the observer is integral to quantum mechanics:

    Quantum mechanics tells us nothing of the sort. The ‘observables’ are merely the measurable properties, energy, momentum, so on, and the principle theory centers on matter and its various states of instability.

    Oh Overburden, but if only reality could be separated from the observer as you need to maintain your materialistic basis,,,but I and a few thousand scientists disagree with you:

    Dr. Quantum – Double Slit & Entanglement – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzQuU6FpYAk

    In fact, the actions observed in the double slit experiment are only possible if our reality has its actual basis in a “higher dimension”. Here are some more videos revealing this “supernatural Quantum world” which is the basis of our reality:

    Explaining The Unseen Spiritual Realm – Dr. Quantum – Flatland – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhjNlp5RIZs

    The Electron – The Supernatural Basis of Reality – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv_YQl6XSMM

  57. 57
    bornagain77 says:

    Here is another recent study that basically body slammed materialism:

    Refutation of the “hidden variables” argument that is used by materialists in trying to explain quantum phenomena,,,

    Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show:
    In comparison to classical physics, quantum physics predicts that the properties of a quantum mechanical system depend on the measurement context, i.e. whether or not other system measurements are carried out. A team of physicists from Innsbruck, Austria, led by Christian Roos and Rainer Blatt, have for the first time proven in a comprehensive experiment that it is not possible to explain quantum phenomena in non-contextual terms…..Quantum mechanics describes the physical state of light and matter and formulates concepts that totally contradict the classical conception we have of nature. Thus, physicists have tried to explain non-causal phenomena in quantum mechanics by classical models of hidden variables, thereby excluding randomness, which is omnipresent in quantum theory.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....142824.htm

  58. 58
    PaulT says:

    Excuse me, I have a short off topic message for bornagain77. They have created a thread for you over at the sight that shouldn’t be named. They say you are welcome to comment there.

  59. 59
    bornagain77 says:

    Skew Jones states:
    “I have no idea how you stretched that Science Daily article to somehow “slam” materialism.”

    The hidden variables conjecture is overthrown in the paper,,,i.e. materialism body slammed.

    Quantum mechanics allows one to calculate the probabilities of each viable location of the electron as a wave function. However, the theory goes further, saying that until the electron is observed, it is in all possible positions, until the wave function that describes it is collapsed to a specific location by an observation. This creates some interesting philosophical problems and has been seen by some as implying that human beings create reality. Hidden variables, the EPR papers argue, would overcome these problems and allow for reality to be described with the same certainty that applies in Newtonian physics.

    Hidden variables would also remove the need for “spooky” forces, as Einstein termed them—forces that act instantaneously at great distances, thereby breaking the most cherished rule of relativity theory, that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. For example, quantum theory implies that measurement of one particle can instantaneously change another particle that may be light years away, if the particles are an entangled pair. Entangled particles are identical entities that share a common origin and have the same properties. Somehow, according to quantum theory, these particles remain in instantaneous contact with each other, no matter how far apart they separate. Hidden variables would allow two entangled particles to have specific values upon creation, thereby doing away with the need for them to be in communication with each other in some mysterious way.
    http://www.scienceclarified.co.....stems.html

    i.e. the instantaneous nature of the communication is indeed real,,, not only is the communication of information real, the transcendent information exercises dominion of energy-matter and thereby establishes itself as the primary and dominate component of reality,,,i.e. John 1:1 is verified:

    further reference:

    How Teleportation Will Work –
    Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. — As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made.
    http://in.geocities.com/info_aruni/tele.htm

    As well, the following video shows quantum teleportation breakthroughs have shed even more light on exactly what, or more precisely on exactly Whom, has created this universe:

    Scientific Evidence For God Creating The Universe – 2008 – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQhO906v0VM

  60. 60
    bornagain77 says:

    further reference:

    Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh
    Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) — Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport.
    http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/fa.....lPSA2K.pdf

    It is also interesting to note that we can only “destroy” a photon in these quantum teleportation experiments. No one has “created” a photon as of yet. I firmly believe man shall never do as such, since I hold only God is infinite, and perfect, in information/knowledge.

    More supporting evidence for the transcendent nature of infinite information is found in these following studies:

    Single photons to soak up data:
    Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information.
    http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201

    Ultra-Dense Optical Storage — on One Photon
    Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact.
    http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html

    This following experiment clearly shows information is not a “emergent property” of any solid material basis as is dogmatically asserted by some materialists:

    Converting Quantum Bits: Physicists Transfer Information Between Matter and Light
    Excerpt: A team of physicists at the Georgia Institute of Technology has taken a significant step toward the development of quantum communications systems by successfully transferring quantum information from two different groups of atoms onto a single photon.
    http://gtresearchnews.gatech.e.....mtrans.htm

    Reflection on the quantum teleportation experiment:

    That a photon would actually be destroyed upon the teleportation of its “infinite” information to another photon is a direct controlled violation of the first law of thermodynamics. Thus, this is a direct empirical validation for the primary tenet of the Law of Conservation of Information (i.e. information cannot be created or destroyed). This conclusion is warranted because information exercises direct dominion of energy, which cannot be created or destroyed by any known material means, yet a photon of energy is destroyed by this transcendent means. Thus, this experiment provides a direct line of logic that transcendent information cannot be created or destroyed. Clearly anything that exercises dominion of the fundamental entity of this physical universe, energy, must of necessity possess the same, as well as greater, qualities. i.e. All information that can exist, for all past, present and future events of energy, already must exist. Another line of evidence, corroborating the primary tenet of the Law of Conservation of Information, is the required mathematical definition for infinite information needed to correctly specify the reality of a photon qubit (Armond Duwell).
    The fact that quantum teleportation shows an exact “location dominion”, of a photon of energy by “a specified truth of infinite information”, satisfies a major requirement for the entity needed to explain the missing Dark Matter. The needed transcendent explanation would have to dominate energy in a very similar “specified location” fashion, as is demonstrated by the infinite information of quantum teleportation, to satisfy what is needed to explain the missing dark matter. Moreover, the fact that simple quantum entanglement shows “coordinated universal control” of a entangled photon of energy, by transcendent information, satisfies a major requirement for the entity which must explain the missing Dark Energy. i.e. The transcendent entity, needed to explain Dark Energy, must explain why the entire space of the universe is expanding in such a finely-tuned, coordinated, degree, and would have to employ a mechanism of control very similar to what we witness in the quantum entanglement experiment. Thus “infinite transcendent information” provides a coherent picture of universal control, and specificity, that could possibly unify all of physics upon further elucidation. It very well may be possible to elucidate, mathematically, the overall pattern God has chosen to implement infinite information in this universe.

    “I discovered that nature was constructed in a wonderful way, and our task is to find out its mathematical structure”
    Albert Einstein

    Further reflections on the “infinite transcendent information” framework:

    Mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, thus mass will never go the speed of light. As well, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for mass at the speed of light (i.e. the mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light.). For us to hypothetically travel at the speed of light, in this universe, only gets us to first base as far as quantum teleportation is concerned. That is to say, traveling at the speed of light only gets us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, “past and future folding into now”, framework/dimension of time. This “eternal” inference for light is warranted because light is not “frozen within time” yet it is shown that time does not pass for light.

    “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.”
    Albert Einstein

    Also, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, but, and this is a big but; this “timeless” travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework/dimension of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. In information teleportation the “time not passing”, eternal, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but also in our temporal framework/dimension. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks/dimensions, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus “pure information” is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks/dimensions. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which it inhabits is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned). Logic also dictates “a decision” must have been made, by the “transcendent, eternal, infinite information” from the primary timeless reality it inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from infinite possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive. The restriction imposed by our physical limitations of us ever accessing complete infinite information to our temporal physical framework/dimension does not detract, in any way, from the primacy and dominion of the infinite, eternal, transcendent, information framework/dimension that is now established by the quantum teleportation experiment as the primary reality of our reality. Of note: All of this evidence meshes extremely well with the theistic postulation of God being infinite and perfect in knowledge.

    “An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality”
    Akiane – Child Prodigy – Artwork homepage – music video

    As a side light to this, leading quantum physicist Anton Zeilinger has followed in John Archibald Wheeler’s footsteps (1911-2008) by insisting reality, at its most foundational level, is “information”.

    Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe?
    Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: “In the beginning was the Word.”
    Anton Zeilinger – a leading expert in quantum teleportation:

  61. 61
    Overburden says:

    bornagain77
    I don’t see your point. What is your argument?

    ‘thereby excluding randomness, which is omnipresent in quantum theory.’

    Do you understand this? How does it fit into your argument? How can you argue design when the atomic base for all existence is collapsible.

    You are reading something into quantum discovery, something you believe supports your personal interpretation of what ‘nature’ is for you – designed by your personal god.
    That doesn’t change physics, and it won’t change my understanding, or that of others relying on a stricter interpretation of how matter is assembled at the sub atomic level.

  62. 62
    bornagain77 says:

    Paul T, thanks but no thanks, I had quite enough abuse last night from the “unmentionable” blog to last me awhile,,,I really feel sorry for Dr. Dembski’s students,,,, he should really give them more points on the grade for having to put up with that kind of treatment…

  63. 63
    bornagain77 says:

    Overburden you ask:

    “How can you argue design when the atomic base for all existence is collapsible.”

    Collapsible by what and only what Overburden?

    A conscious observer!!!!

    downright spooky huh overburden?

  64. 64
    Overburden says:

    77 You are spooky, that you are.

  65. 65
    Lenoxus says:

    Regarding the whole NDE thing (now used to abbreviate near-death experience and not neo-Darwinian evolution — huh, not a very efficient abbreviation now that I had to explain it): Are there any reported cases of someone returning from brain death? Because, regardless of the consequences for our various and sundry theories, that would be pretty awesome.

    I must admit, the NDE phenomenon is strange enough for me to ponder my lack of afterlife belief. Still, I think the idea that it’s a “side effect” of unknown neural phenomena makes just as much sense as saying that it’s the literal experience of a soul which is never otherwise (in our life experience) disembodied.

  66. 66
    bornagain77 says:

    Skew Jones objects:

    ” there’s a large difference between “all possible locations” and “any possible location”. You’re conflating the two in your definition of QM.”

    Well Skew,,, Let’s see what we can gather from what we have so far,,, we know from 4-D space-time cosmology that “any” possible 3-D location is just as “center of the universe” as “all” other 3-D locations of the universe are center,,,thus any and all 3-D locations are equivalent in 4-D space-time cosmology.
    Whereas in quantum mechanics, especially with the falsification of hidden variables mentioned earlier, we have uncontested wave collapse to a quasi- 3-D particle centered on each and every observer in the universe, Thus since each and every observer is responsible for collapsing wave functions to their particular 3-D point of view within 4-D space-time cosmology, it naturally follows in Quantum Mechanics that “any possible location” is equivalent to “all possible locations” as far as the 3-D perspective of each individual observer is concerned in Quantum Mechanics. i.e. an observer on the other side of the universe would have all wave collapse in the universe to his particular point of view,,, For you to prove that this is not so you would have to prove that that each individual observer is not integral and unique to wave collapse in quantum mechanics,,, But as with all other things in quantum mechanics that have been challenged by the materialistic philosophy, I have great confidence you will never save your “hunch” for a separate material reality “out there somewhere” from the spooky and strange reality revealed to us by Quantum Mechanics.

  67. 67
    bornagain77 says:

    This song came on the radio right after I wrote this, and seems “strangely” appropriate:

    Earth, Wind & Fire Shining Star LIVE Midnight Special
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmEwTrpZs0I

    Coincidence?,,, Well,,, I have my doubts,,, LOL,,, It has been told to me there are no coincidences in God’s world,,,,

  68. 68
    bornagain77 says:

    Lenoxus asks,

    Are there any reported cases of someone returning from brain death?

    Yes, this following NDE pretty much rocked the NDE world,

    The Day I Died – Part 4 of 6 – The NDE of Pam Reynolds – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA37uNa3VGU

    This one the man was confirmed dead in a car wreck:

    Don Piper – 90 Minutes in Heaven – A Trip To Heaven and Back!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O0KCfLqMZo

    this following NDE was of a man who was in a brain dead coma for 27 days:

    Near Death Experience – Raised From Brain Death By Jesus – Miracle
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA-P4c36E2A

    This following NDE personally rocked my world:

    Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw0lNh7NVb0

    Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported being able to see during their NDEs. 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. In all, 15 of the 21 NDEers and 9 of the 10 OBEers could see during their experience while the remaining participants either claimed that they did not see or were not sure whether or not they had seen.

    This following NDE should give severe pause to anybody who rails against God:

    Former Atheist Howard Storm’s Hellish NDE – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF7AzxplsME

  69. 69
    ScottAndrews says:

    Re: Change of subject

    I wasn’t actually complaining about the thread going off-topic – it seems that they all do, and it leads somewhere interesting.
    I was just pointing out (39) that the way the subject changed appeared to relate two unrelated subjects.

  70. 70
    bornagain77 says:

    In further reflection to post 69:

    I find it extremely interesting that quantum mechanics tells us that a wave collapse to a quasi 3-D particle is “centered” on each individual conscious observer, whereas 4-D space-time cosmology tells us the 3-D universe is “centered” on each individual conscious observer. Why should the universe, or the sub-atomic world, even care that I exist? This is obviously a very interesting congruence in science between the very large and the very small. A congruence they seem to be having a extremely difficult time making a connection with mathematically (Penrose, Einstein). Yet, a connection which Jesus apparently seems to have joined together with His resurrection:

    A Particle Physicist Looks At The Turin Shroud Image – 4:25 minute mark of video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgvEDfkuhGg

    “Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but only in contradiction to that which is known to us of nature.”
    St. Augustine

    The wonder of it all is truly amazing.

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