Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Creationism’s Reluctance to Enter ID’s Big Tent

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Critics of ID are quick to label it creationism. It is therefore ironic that creationists are increasingly reluctant to identify themselves as design theorists. Creationists, both of the young-earth and the old-earth variety, tend to think ID doesn’t go far enough and hesitate to embrace ID’s widening circle of allies, a circle that now includes Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, New Agers, and non-dogmatic agnostics. Indeed, creationists are increasingly distancing themselves from ID’s big tent.

By creationism, I don’t mean merely the belief that God created the world. All theists believe that. Rather, creationism denotes the view that the Bible, and Genesis in particular, guarantees the truth of certain scientific models. Thus, for instance, the young-earth creationist model of flood geology (and, in particular, the use of this model to explain the fossil record) finds its ultimate support in the Genesis account of Noah’s flood. Rather than simply following the evidence wherever it goes and letting the science speak for itself (which is the stated aim of ID), creationism is self-consciously involved in a Bible-science controversy. Because creationists have, in their view, an inside track on scientific truth through the Bible, they already know more (or think they do) than any ID theorist can ever know. For them, ID is too thin a soup on which to nourish a robust creationism. Hence their increasing refusal to place themselves under ID’s big tent.

As evidence, I cite the following three items:

(1) The Institute for Creation Research‘s (ICR’s) 2005-2006 Resource Catalog includes no books published by ID proponents after 2000 — and the bulk of our books have been published since then. In particular, none of my work appears in their catalog. More telling still is where ICR is placing its bets, namely, on showing that the earth is thousands rather than billions of years old. Thus, the very first item, prominently displayed, in that Resource Catalog is a book and video titled Thousands . . . Not Billions. If the earth is indeed thousands rather than billions of years old and this young age can be settled definitiely, then not only will young-earth creationism be vindicated but evolution will be disproven immediately as a straightforward corollary (there simply wouldn’t be any time for evolution to have taken place). Thus, rather than cast their lot with ID, which admits an old earth (if only for the sake of argument, though most ID proponents I know do indeed hold to an old earth) and requires a case-by-case analysis of biological systems to determine their design characteristics and the obstacles these present to evolvability, ICR appears to want a quick and decisive solution. Good luck to them in pulling it off.

(2) Reasons to Believe (RTB) is the ministry of old-earth creationist Hugh Ross. Their online store (go here) serves the same role for RTB as ICR’s Resource Catalog. It too is very sparse in ID offerings. As with ICR, RTB has no books by ID proponents on the biological aspects of ID subsequent to 2000 (with regard to the cosmological aspects of ID, there is one exception, namely, The Privileged Planet by Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay Richards, which is not surprising given that Gonzalez is a long-time associate of RTB). Again, none of my work is in that catalog, with one exception: Mere Creation. This book is the procedings of a conference from 1996 at which Hugh Ross spoke, so he has an essay in the book. Nonetheless, the RTB Store lists Mere Creation as a clearance item, indicating that RTB will soon no longer carry it.

(3) RTB’s official press release in August 2005 claimed that ID is not science (even the young-earth creationists don’t go this far). Note that Fazale Rana is the number-two man at RTB and Hugh Ross’s collaborator on a number of projects:

From: CCNWashDC@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 05,his 2005 3:30 PM
To: newsdesk@earnedmedia.org
Subject: PR: Creation Scientist says Intelligent Design Has No Place in
Public School Science Curriculum

“As currently formulated, Intelligent Design is not science,” says Dr.
Fazale Rana, internationally respected biochemist and one of the world’s
leading experts in origin of life research.

To: National Desk

Contact: Kathleen Campbell, Campbell Public Relations, 877-540-6022,
kcampbell@thecompletesolution.com

NEWS ADVISORY, Aug. 5 /Christian Wire Service
/ — Internationally respected
biochemist and one of the world’s leading experts in origin of life
research, Fazale “Fuz” Rana, PhD, is available for comment on the validity
of teaching “Intelligent Design” in public schools. Dr. Rana states:

“As currently formulated, Intelligent Design is not science. It is not
falsifiable and makes no predictions about future scientific discoveries.

“As a biochemist I am opposed to introducing any idea into the educational
process that is scientifically ludicrous. Proponents of Intelligent Design
lose credibility, for instance, when they say that the Earth is thousands of
years old when the scientific evidence and the fossil record clearly prove
our Earth is at least 4.5 billion years.

“At Reasons To Believe , our team of scientists
has developed a theory for creation that embraces the latest scientific
advances. It is fully testable, falsifiable, and successfully predicts the
current discoveries in origin of life research.

“With the creation model approach every perspective is encouraged to
participate in the scientific process to see which theory best fits the
emerging data. With this cutting edge program no philosophical or religious
perspective is denied access. It holds the possibility of bringing to
resolution the creation /evolution controversy once and for all.”

Fazale Rana, Ph.D. is the vice president for science apologetics at Reasons
To Believe. Dr. Rana earned his Bachelor’s and Master’s Degrees in Biology
and Biochemistry at West Virginia State College and his Ph.D. in Chemistry
at Ohio University. He was twice winner of the Clippinger Research Award at
Ohio University. Dr. Rana worked for seven years as a senior scientist in
product development for Procter & Gamble before joining Reasons To Believe.
He has published more than fifteen articles in peer-reviewed scientific
journals and delivered more than twenty presentations at international
scientific conferences. Dr. Rana is the co-author of the chapter on Anti
Microbial Peptides for Biological and Synthetic Membranes in addition to
contributing numerous feature articles to Facts for Faith magazine. Origins
of Life:Biblical and Evolutionary Models Face Off is Dr. Rana’s first book.
His newest title, Who Was Adam?: A Creation Model Approach to the Origin of
Man is due to release in September ’05.

For more information visit the Reasons To Believe website at www.reasons.org
.

To schedule an interview contact Kathleen Campbell; Campbell Public
Relations, LLC; 877-540-6022; kcampbell@thecompletesolution.com

This press release is remarkable in a number of respects. On the one hand, Rana calls ID to task for not taking a stand on the age of the earth when the fact is that every ID theorist develops ID arguments consistent with standard geological and cosmological dating (i.e., billions, not thousands). Thus, if there are young-earth creationists in our midst, they put their young-earth creationism aside when focusing on ID. This is not to say that they stop believing creationism or lay it aside when considering other scientific questions, like the age of the Earth. The point is that for ID, neither thousands nor billions of years make the problem of design in nature go away. The age question is irrelevant to ID.

On the other hand, Rana dismisses our efforts to develop ID as a scientific program and advertises RTB’s own approach to biological origins as the science of the future. In response to this press release, I wrote Drs. Rana and Ross the following:

I’ve been meaning to ask you about the press release. I’m curious about Fuz’s appeal to Popper’s falsifiability criterion as a defining condition for science. String theory, for instance, isn’t falsifiable at present; maybe it isn’t science, but lots of people in physics departments do it. And yet it seems that RTB is not about to issue a press release against discussing string theory in science classrooms.

But isn’t the real issue not falsifiability but confirmation/disconfirmation. A scientific theory should be disconfirmable by evidence. Whereas falsifiability is supposed to be dramatic and fatal to a theory, disconfirmation merely renders it less plausible. ID is certainly disconfirmable: if someone takes an allegedly irreducibly complex system and finds a good neo-Darwinist story to explain it, then ID is disconfirmed. If you don’t agree, please let me know why.

[[Note that in writing this letter, I drew from a private email by a colleague on Rana’s press release — I would name this colleague, but because his academic position is at this time not secure, I need to preserve confidentiality.]]

Neither Fazale Rana nor Hugh Ross ever responded to this email.

As for their theory of creation, known as the RTB model, which Rana’s press release promises will bring “to resolution the creation/evolution controversy once and for all,” I encourage readers to look at it closely. This theory, known as “the RTB Biblical Creation Model,” appears in a book by Rana and Ross titled Origins of Life: Biblical and Evolutionary Models Face Off. Their model, which states that God created life as recounted in the Bible, is supposed to establish its scientific bona fides through eight predictions on pages 43 and 44 of that book. Here are these eight predictions (note that boldface and italics are as they appear in the text):

The RTB Model’s Predictions

The RTB biblical creation model for the origin of life sets forth the following central ideas and predictions:

1. Life appeared early in Earth’s history, while the planet was still in its primodial state. The backdrop for the origin of life in Genesis 1:2 was an early Earth enveloped entirely in water and as yet untransformed by tectonic and volcanic activity. This tenet anticipates the discovery of life’s remains in the part of the geological column that corresponds to earth Earth.

2. Life originated in and persisted through the hostile conditions of early Earth. Genesis 1:2 describes early Earth as tohu wabohu, an empty wasteland. This model maintains that God nurtured the seeds of Earth’s first life, perhaps re-creating these seeds each time they were destroyed. This model predicts that science will discover life’s first emergence under the hellish conditions of early Earth.

3. Life Orignated abruptly. If God created the first life on Earth through direct intervention, one can reasonably assume that life appeared suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere. This model predicts that the planetary and geological record will demonstrate life’s emergence in a narrow, if not instantaneous, time window.

4. Earth’s first life displays complexity. If a Creator brought life into existence, first life should display significant complexity. Therefore, the RTB Model predicts that fossil and geochemical remains will indicate that Earth’s earliest life forms display complexity.

5. Life is complex in its mininal form. Life in its simplest form should also display considerable complexity. An inherent minimal complexity reasonably indicates that life has been intelligently crafted.

6. Life’s chemistry displays hallmark characteristics of design. Systems and structures produced by intelligent agents typically possess characteristics that distinguish them from those produced by natural processes. These properties serve as indicators of design. They will be apparent in biochemical systems of the cell if the biblical Creator is responsible for life. . . .

7. First life was qualitatively different from life that came into existence on creation days three, five, and six. The third creation day describes the creation of plants. . . . The fifth creation day discusses the creation of marine invertebrates and fish, marine mammals, and birds. The sixth creation day includes the creation of specialized land mammals. These multicellular advanced plants and animals are qualitatively different from the first life forms created on primordial Earth.

8. A purpose can be postulated for life’s early appearance on Earth. The RTB Model bears the burden of explaining why God would create life so early in Earth’s history and why (as well as when) He would create the specific types of life that appeared on primordial Earth. While God would be free to create life for nonutilitarian purposes, discernible reasons should exist for God’s bringing life into existence under the violent conditions of early Earth — conditions under which life could not persist and would presumably need to be re-created.

After reading and re-reading these predictions, I’m frankly scratching my head. These predictions, according to Rana and Ross, are supposed to render their model science whereas ID is not science? Take point 8: How is it a scientific prediction that “a purpose can be postulated for life’s early appearance on Earth”? This is so vague that it can’t count as a prediction. As for points 4 to 6, in drawing attention to the complexity of life and design detection, these points touch on central ID concerns (but note, neither Behe nor I receive any mention in the book’s index). But why should the complexity of life and design detection in living forms follow from Genesis? Presumably God could have made a world in which life forms were materially simple.

Bottom line: Creationists want more than ID is willing to deliver and are now distancing themselves from it.

Comments
Davescot: I'll make no claims as to whether or not they've been mined or not because I don't know, but the burden is on you to explain "...the first thing that has to be done is to get the Bible out of the discussion. ...This is not to say that the biblical issues are unimportant; the point is rather that the time to address them will be after we have separated materialist prejudice from scientific fact." "Intelligent Design is an intellectual movement, and the Wedge strategy stops working when we are seen as just another way of packaging the Christian evangelical message. ... The evangelists do what they do very well, and I hope our work opens up for them some doors that have been closed." Both Philip Johnson. It is likely that neither of us will be satisfied with the other's answer on this because I will say that "materialist prejudice" is something he made up and that the definition of science does not need expanding. "Christ is indispensible to any scientific theory, even if its practitioners don't have a clue about him. The pragmatics of a scientific theory can, to be sure, be pursued without recourse to Christ. But the conceptual soundness of the theory can in the end only be located in Christ." "ID is part of God's general revelation..." "Not only does Intelligent Design rid us of this ideology (materialism), which suffocates the human spirit, but, in my personal experience, I've found that it opens the path for people to come to Christ." All three Dembski. These five quotes are endnotes 15-19 on the Wikipeda article. jaredl: http://www.daubertontheweb.com/Chapter_2.htm The five-point checklist at that site is slightly easier to understand. Going on the legal definition of science: The theoretical underpinnings of the methods must yield testable predictions by means of which the theory could be falsified. Evolution meets it. The methods should preferably be published in a peer-reviewed journal. Evolution definitely meets it. There should be a known rate of error that can be used in evaluating the results. Evolution meets it. The methods should be generally accepted within the relevant scientific community. Evolution meets it. Even if one concedes that ID meets the first, it does not meet two, three, or four. In fact, by not meeting definition three, I am fairly certain that it cannot meet definition one.higgity
October 14, 2005
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Which of these four, from the wikipedia rant, does darwinism meet, given materialism? The theoretical underpinnings of the methods must yield testable predictions by means of which the theory could be falsified. The methods should preferably be published in a peer-reviewed journal. There should be a known rate of error that can be used in evaluating the results. The methods should be generally accepted within the relevant scientific community.jaredl
October 14, 2005
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I am YEC. It is disappointing but not really very important to me to learn that Mr. Dembski adopts "billions not thousands". We both agree the complexity of life (of creation in general) bears evidence of design. strating some level of intellectual honesty, YEC at ICR appear to have pursued original research (the RATE program) without having bent the results to butress their theory. I do not believe a person (scientists also being persons) can approach any subject without beliefs of some kind about the nature and character of God nor about the distance of God (near or far) from the present. Some who claim to be objective are simply more circumspect than honest about their preconcepts. Best to be honest as Mr. Dembski is being.glennbob
October 14, 2005
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higgity Questionable quotes such as... ?DaveScot
October 14, 2005
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Some recent news Here's some things I found interesting in the last few days: This year's driverless vehicle challenge, run by DARPA, went quite well. Competitors, out for a $2 million purse, had to design a vehicle able to drive an assigned course...Parableman
October 14, 2005
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Benji: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design#Religion_and_leading_ID_proponents Those two paragraph contain some questionable quotes.higgity
October 13, 2005
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2perfection just has it wrong! Read Dembski's and Behe' work, tell me if they ever mention GOD as the designer or God created this. You won't! Unless, you're a darwinist who loves to quote-mine, which I don't doubt.Benjii
October 13, 2005
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that doesnt make any sense. im pointing out the fact that claiming ID is merely creationism is a lie. and to prove that point, many IDers accept common descent, and many are agnostic- so you can hardly claim these people are creationists. furthermore, we have over 100 comments discussing how creationists, in large part, arent willing to accept ID and come under the tent of ID. are you supporting the conspiracy theory now? the creationist groups are only pretending not to accept ID, and many IDers are lying about their own beliefs in the science? behes common descent belief comes from the science not a belief (not sure of what religious book talks about macroevolution!) you can find some of dembskis books on some creationist sites- gasp! why? because many creationists groups accept ID. they think their ideas go much further and assert the truth of the bible, but many of them find ID more mainstream to more people and use their books as well...so, youre going to say that because a handful of creationist groups sell ID books on their site that these ID books are really creationist books in disguise?jboze3131
October 13, 2005
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jboze: I thought that we weren't supposed to bring ID proponents' personal beliefs into the discussion. We're just supposed to go on the strength of the arguments. When Dover ordered Of Pandas and People, it came with a textbook catalog. That catalog listed Of Pandas And People under "Creation Science." Weird.higgity
October 13, 2005
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well, you just exposed your own lie there by claiming ID is special creation, when looking at any of the writing tells you it isnt. if its special creation, how come behe has no problem with common descent? how come some IDers are agnostic? do you think theyve been lying about their views in order to establish an evil theocracy? its all a conspiracy right?jboze3131
October 13, 2005
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someone wrote "ive been looking into this debate (id, creationism, darwinism), and i can say that i rarely see hate-filled IDers or creationists, but i do see a boatload of darwinists who seem to be filled with hate with any idea but their own, and hate for those who dont sign up for their near dogmatic views." If you were constantly lied about, your work misrepresented, your discussions misrepresented...you would get pretty angry too. If you have *really* looked into the debate then you will have found incredible acts of outright dishonesty, evasion and hypocrisy on the crationist side. A great example of this is the claim Intelligent Design is not creationism. It is, ID is Special Creation. The book 'of pandas an people' was written as a creationist book, with the words 'intelligent design' inserted using little more than 'find and replace' in word. I doubt the veracity of your assertion.2perfection
October 13, 2005
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someone wrote "ive been looking into this debate (id, creationism, darwinism), and i can say that i rarely see hate-filled IDers or creationists, but i do see a boatload of darwinists who seem to be filled with hate with any idea but their own, and hate for those who dont sign up for their near dogmatic views." If you were constantly lied about, your work misrepresented, your discussions misrepresented...you would get pretty angry too. If you have *really* looked into the debate then you will have found incredible acts of outright dishonesty, evasion and hypocrisy on the crationist side. A great example of this is the claim Intelligent Design is not creationism. It is, ID is Special Creation. The book 'of pandas an people' was written as a creationist book, with the words 'intelligent design' inserted using little more than 'find and replace' in word. I doubt the veracity of your assertion.2perfection
October 13, 2005
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Creationists rejecting ID's big tent? Writing on his blog "Uncommon Descent," Intelligent Design theorist William Dembski notes a growing irony: While critics of ID are quick to label it creationism, adherents to creation science are increasingly distancing themselves from ID. "Creation...World Magazine Blog
October 13, 2005
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DaveScot - The problem was that there wasn't _any_ lies being told. PZ disagreed, but called it a lie. Claiming a lie for a disagreement is quite an underhanded tactic in my book.johnnyb
October 13, 2005
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Jboze3131 - "btw- what does everyone make of this find anyhow? im no scientist, but how on earth could soft tissue be intact for a million yrs let alone 65 million yrs?!" I think there are questions to be asked from all camps. Certainly if the fossil is 65 million years old, how could tissue be intact (although changed)? This is a good question that Evolutionists and Old Earth Creationists should ask, but I can't help thinking that all camps will be able to find an explanation that will satisfy their worldviews. Another question that could be asked is: "can tissue be preserved for even thousands of years?" Since these are dinosaur bones, It is apparent that it can. On the other hand, supposing that there are 65 million years involved here, could something possibly decay at a slower rate under certain conditions, say, from an absense of air or other elements? I'm no scientist either, so I don't really know if my questions are valid, but I have read a lot of different scientific arguments, and some people seem to think along such lines. If so, then it could be feesible, that under the right conditions, tissue decay could be slowed to such an extent as to allow it to be intact over vast amounts of time - even millions of years. I don't think that enough information has been provided (perhaps a lot more exists), to make a judgment. It's like discovering a body, but not having done enough research to answer how the body got there, or how it died. Preliminary speculations are bound to occur. Is this discovery in the preliminary speculation stage, while some of the investigators are already making premature conclusions? It seems like that is what happened with Methodological Darwinism. There was good data to show that something interesting was occuring, but people came to conclusions too quickly, and a theory was formed out of a lack of sufficient data. This occured because naturalists were eager to find an alternative to design arguments. Design arguments became blase because they failed (at least in the minds of the naturalists) to deal with the problem of evil. Darwinism, therefore, is not purely scientific, but philosophical - in that the issue of the problem of evil deals with metaphysical questions. This discovery is now being interpreted from a Darwinist perspective that is incomplete, and that fails to resolve its own internal metaphysical problems sufficiently, because it denies that metaphysics enters into the problem. It's very complicated how this occurs. I'm of the understanding that part of the Darwinist method for dating artifacts comes from a need to allow sufficient time for evolution to occur naturally. Yet, there seems to be some credence to other more scientific dating methods. Is the combination of scientific dating methods, and the need to allow a hypothesized evolution to occur naturally, skewing the acutal precision of the dating that can be done?ICtfIAm
October 13, 2005
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I realize some believe they are called upon to evangelize but even the Jehovahs don't try ringing the doorbell again after I've told them "not interested".DaveScot
October 13, 2005
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"that you are still called to share even with those who dont want to hear" That's just obnoxious. Don't do it.DaveScot
October 13, 2005
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"considering christians arent supposed to marry non-christians" Really? According to who?DaveScot
October 13, 2005
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"you have to wonder what kind of catholic she is" Probably Catholic like my wife and a number of my friends - a member in spirit but haven't performed the rituals since they were teenagers and their parents could still force them and you wouldn't know what religion they are unless you specifically ask. Then you still might not believe it, everything considered. ;-) I rather expect the subject doesn't come up and/or he bites his tongue in real life. I bet he has a Christmas tree in his house every year too. Maybe no angel on the top. LOLDaveScot
October 13, 2005
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JohnnyB - I read the blog you linked. The same hyperbole seems to be occuring in the ID confrontation with Darwinism. Since the ideas can't be challenged sufficintly, character assassination is the next best argument - yet it is no argument at all. For those who have dared to bring to light new ideas, and new paradigms of thought, there will always be a tendancy among the orthodox, to object on the basis of a person's character. Yet, it is the detractors of those new ideas, who have the power to define that character. Thus, accusing Creationists of being liars, powerfully diminishes their reasonablenes among the feeble-minded. Yet, people with true humility to desire understanding, do not resort to such tactics. What is going on here is a clear reversal of roles from the Scopes "monkey" trial. The "fundamentalists" in this case, are the Darwinists. They fear new thinking, so they demonize it.ICtfIAm
October 13, 2005
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johnnyb I read the original article (at the time) about the dino tissue (as well as PZ's writeup). I didn't find anything inaccurate in PZ's response. Nothing in it claimed there was anything in it suggesting an age anywhere near 6000 years. We can almost thaw out and revive stuff from 6000 years ago. Badly fragmented DNA is reputedly found in amber-preserved insects in million year ages. PZ hisself said he expected the cells to all be just really good fossils with nothing inside the cell ls but meaningless chemical soup. To be quite honest I put 6000 year-old earth in a less credible category than UFOs, Ouija boards, and pyramid hats.DaveScot
October 13, 2005
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i just reread your comment and you said that youd consider if thumping if you try to tell someone who doesnt want to hear it. my apologies for not noticing that stipulation! thats what you get for reading a comment in a flash then replying. :) anyhow- id still think, according to what christ said, that you are still called to share even with those who dont want to hear. ive often seen (on tv mainly) those who say they dont want to hear and many who hear anyhow and then totally change their minds- they start out proclaiming they dont want to hear a word of it, but they end the conversation with a new understanding of it all, some coming away with a new path for their lives. tho, i dont think id have the guts to share with someone who refused to hear- in the end, most people who DO refuse to hear wont listen no matter what, so its usually a waste of time. so maybe believers are called to proclaim the word even to those who dont want to hear? i couldnt say for sure personally based on my basic understanding of the command. hmm.jboze3131
October 13, 2005
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his wife is catholic?! did he mention to her how much religion makes him sick? you have to wonder what kind of catholic she is, considering christians arent supposed to marry non-christians. why on earth would you? live your life knowing your husband is going to hell according to your faith and all. as for "bible thumping"- its what christ called his followers to do. it might be boorish to some, but religion isnt supposed to be a one day a week sort of thing, and biblically-speaking, christ demanded that believers go and share the faith with anyone who will listen.
“All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (Mt. 28:18-20 ASV).
so, unless a christians wants to disobey a direct order from the risen lord...jboze3131
October 13, 2005
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PZ must have an interesting relationship with his Catholic wife and in-laws, huh? Even Catholics usually don't wear their religion on their sleeve. If you keep your bible thumping to yourself and/or at the church or church functions no one else needs to know a damn thing about it. If you feel compelled to tell someone about it that doesn't want to hear it you're thumping. Don't thump. It's boorish.DaveScot
October 13, 2005
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btw- what does everyone make of this find anyhow? im no scientist, but how on earth could soft tissue be intact for a million yrs let alone 65 million yrs?! from what i read, the find astonished most scientists. the woman, i saw pics of her and of the find itself, was amazed that this could even be possible. i would argue that such amazement should equal a reevaluation of all that we (think) we know, but i wont hold my breath. i read an article the other day that talked about how some scientists just discovered that solar systems take very short times to form when it was thought they took very long times, and that it would totally change the way we see solar systems and the birth of them and the time frames involved...yet no reevaluation of what we (think) we know of that issue either? seems like too many scientists cant even imagine scrapping any part of an idea when evidence suggests the idea is wrong. its maybe easier to stick with the status quo and leave it at that?jboze3131
October 12, 2005
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johnnyb- thanks for posting the link (great comedy with myers who refuses to point out the supposed lie). ive been looking into this debate (id, creationism, darwinism), and i can say that i rarely see hate-filled IDers or creationists, but i do see a boatload of darwinists who seem to be filled with hate with any idea but their own, and hate for those who dont sign up for their near dogmatic views. i also see a lot of dishonesty from the neodarwinists that i dont see with IDers and others (creationists for example). dishonest abounds all over, but it seems that one side of the debate is just out to get anyone who dissents, and its not the IDers but rather people like myers, scott, forrest, and others who are out to ruin anyone who speaks in dissent of the dogmatic view. ive yet to see any IDer try to ruin the career of a neodarwinist, nor have i yet seen any mainstream IDer attack a darwinist with endless ad hominems. doesnt this say so much about the debate itself? this guy is a prime case of this hatred. his hatred for religion, for god, for religious people, for christianity, for anyone who dissent in any way from his views (he makes it fairly clear that hes right and everyone else is a loony anti-science, nutjob, whacko, liar, etc). i read his post and he never pointed out a single lie. he lied claiming that AIG was beating up on the scientist who made this find, when AIG did no such thing! they made it obvious they thought that this evidence wouldnt change her view on common descent and such and a billion yrs old universe, but they never attacked her or anything else as myers claims. hilarious comments you made, he couldnt answer a single one. the fact that this guy is teaching young people sickens me. its an amazing example of how far academia has gone over to the leftist fringe and is nearly totally controlled by these people. anti-religious bigotry and dishonest about others seems to be a hallmark of much of US academia- myers proves as much with a single post. im STILL trying to figure out what lie AIG told. theyre a christian group- thats enough to merit myers' hatred. ill repeat it- i cannot believe this guy is in a classroom daily teaching our young people! if he cant be honest on his own website, how can anyone trust hes being honest in the classroom?jboze3131
October 12, 2005
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I'm new here. I have read most of the comments, and I see some commonality here with the notion of "Creationist." Most here apparently are "Creationists" in a particular sense. ID is not "Creation Science," but it does lend some credence to "Creationism" as opposed to indeterminate natural selection. ID proponents desire to be clear about what science at this juncture in our collective understandings, can and cannot say about what can be known emperically and reasonably, by observation of the cosmos alone. Creation Science, on the other hand, presumes the truthfulness of the Biblical narratives. It's not unscientific to do so - one has to have a worldview, but it is unscientific to bring that presumption into the debate when we are talking about things that are known and observed in nature. The events of Genesis are not necessarily observed in nature (though some would argue that we see evidence of Genesis events in nature - and I would agree to some extent). The point, though, is that as theologians have pointed out for centuries; there is a distinction between "general revelation" and "special revelation." ID has correctly detected the work of God in nature, without specifically calling it "God's work." This is not intended to diminish God's glory in creating, but is intended to distinguish between what can be known about God through science; because naming the Creator is the work of "Special revelation," which is additional to natural phenomenon. We don't come to know who God is through nature, but we can detect His handiwork. I think that this distinction is important, and it is very biblical. In fact, if nature were sufficient for knowing God, then Scripture would be irrelevant. Hugh Ross is a brilliant thinker, but I detect some problems with entering Genesis into a debate on the knowledge of creation as opposed to the knowledge of God. While God's existence can be known through nature, "His ways are past finding out." This to me implies, that theology (the greatest of the sciences) is on a plane above natural science, and needs to be confronted once our scientific observations imply God's necessary existence. It is premature to bring God's knowability into questions involving natural science without taking the next step by reverting to interpretation from philosophy and theology. Intelligent Design brings all Creationists closer to defining the distinction between the limits of general revelation, and the implications of God's special revelation. ID, thus, bridges gaps between naturalism and theology on the one hand, by limiting itself to the dictates of mainstream scientific inquiry; and between the dividing lines of Creationists, (YECs, OECs, and ECs), by providing a basis for communicating God's necessary existence to those who claim no belief in a Creator, but who may go where the evidence leads (as Antony Flew has done). This is a truly beneficial development for apologists of the Christian faith, in my view.ICtfIAm
October 12, 2005
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I called PZ's bluff once when he called creationists "liars" for simply pointing out that soft tissue in dinosaur bones strengthens the case for YEC. It was quite amusing that he ranted on and on about creationists being liars, but couldn't point out a single instance of a lie. I was two weeks out from going to an AiG conference, so I asked PZ for a question I could ask the AiG staff to catch them in a lie. He refused to respond. If you're interested in the conversation (it was quite amusing), you can check it out here: http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/creationists_lie_about_the_t_rex_soft_tissue_data/johnnyb
October 12, 2005
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Midweek In Blog I've decided to start a daily review of posts I've seen during my reading as well as posts that are pertinent to the day's Hot Topics that might be of interest to others. I'm going to call it Midweek In Blog--MIB for short. So let's begin.Mr. Smith in Washington
October 12, 2005
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Interesting parry between higgerty and DaveScot back up the line. Higgerty is right that Rushmore e.t.c provides a design inference that is then proven by further study, but ID strengthens the inference by doing further study and demonstrating specified complexity a hall mark of anything that is designed. I know the designer isn't revealed but with SC does he/she have to be? At the very least SC makes the design argument much more compelling than simply a Paley like assertion.petro
October 12, 2005
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