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Creationism’s Reluctance to Enter ID’s Big Tent

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Critics of ID are quick to label it creationism. It is therefore ironic that creationists are increasingly reluctant to identify themselves as design theorists. Creationists, both of the young-earth and the old-earth variety, tend to think ID doesn’t go far enough and hesitate to embrace ID’s widening circle of allies, a circle that now includes Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, New Agers, and non-dogmatic agnostics. Indeed, creationists are increasingly distancing themselves from ID’s big tent.

By creationism, I don’t mean merely the belief that God created the world. All theists believe that. Rather, creationism denotes the view that the Bible, and Genesis in particular, guarantees the truth of certain scientific models. Thus, for instance, the young-earth creationist model of flood geology (and, in particular, the use of this model to explain the fossil record) finds its ultimate support in the Genesis account of Noah’s flood. Rather than simply following the evidence wherever it goes and letting the science speak for itself (which is the stated aim of ID), creationism is self-consciously involved in a Bible-science controversy. Because creationists have, in their view, an inside track on scientific truth through the Bible, they already know more (or think they do) than any ID theorist can ever know. For them, ID is too thin a soup on which to nourish a robust creationism. Hence their increasing refusal to place themselves under ID’s big tent.

As evidence, I cite the following three items:

(1) The Institute for Creation Research‘s (ICR’s) 2005-2006 Resource Catalog includes no books published by ID proponents after 2000 — and the bulk of our books have been published since then. In particular, none of my work appears in their catalog. More telling still is where ICR is placing its bets, namely, on showing that the earth is thousands rather than billions of years old. Thus, the very first item, prominently displayed, in that Resource Catalog is a book and video titled Thousands . . . Not Billions. If the earth is indeed thousands rather than billions of years old and this young age can be settled definitiely, then not only will young-earth creationism be vindicated but evolution will be disproven immediately as a straightforward corollary (there simply wouldn’t be any time for evolution to have taken place). Thus, rather than cast their lot with ID, which admits an old earth (if only for the sake of argument, though most ID proponents I know do indeed hold to an old earth) and requires a case-by-case analysis of biological systems to determine their design characteristics and the obstacles these present to evolvability, ICR appears to want a quick and decisive solution. Good luck to them in pulling it off.

(2) Reasons to Believe (RTB) is the ministry of old-earth creationist Hugh Ross. Their online store (go here) serves the same role for RTB as ICR’s Resource Catalog. It too is very sparse in ID offerings. As with ICR, RTB has no books by ID proponents on the biological aspects of ID subsequent to 2000 (with regard to the cosmological aspects of ID, there is one exception, namely, The Privileged Planet by Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay Richards, which is not surprising given that Gonzalez is a long-time associate of RTB). Again, none of my work is in that catalog, with one exception: Mere Creation. This book is the procedings of a conference from 1996 at which Hugh Ross spoke, so he has an essay in the book. Nonetheless, the RTB Store lists Mere Creation as a clearance item, indicating that RTB will soon no longer carry it.

(3) RTB’s official press release in August 2005 claimed that ID is not science (even the young-earth creationists don’t go this far). Note that Fazale Rana is the number-two man at RTB and Hugh Ross’s collaborator on a number of projects:

From: CCNWashDC@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 05,his 2005 3:30 PM
To: newsdesk@earnedmedia.org
Subject: PR: Creation Scientist says Intelligent Design Has No Place in
Public School Science Curriculum

“As currently formulated, Intelligent Design is not science,” says Dr.
Fazale Rana, internationally respected biochemist and one of the world’s
leading experts in origin of life research.

To: National Desk

Contact: Kathleen Campbell, Campbell Public Relations, 877-540-6022,
kcampbell@thecompletesolution.com

NEWS ADVISORY, Aug. 5 /Christian Wire Service
/ — Internationally respected
biochemist and one of the world’s leading experts in origin of life
research, Fazale “Fuz” Rana, PhD, is available for comment on the validity
of teaching “Intelligent Design” in public schools. Dr. Rana states:

“As currently formulated, Intelligent Design is not science. It is not
falsifiable and makes no predictions about future scientific discoveries.

“As a biochemist I am opposed to introducing any idea into the educational
process that is scientifically ludicrous. Proponents of Intelligent Design
lose credibility, for instance, when they say that the Earth is thousands of
years old when the scientific evidence and the fossil record clearly prove
our Earth is at least 4.5 billion years.

“At Reasons To Believe , our team of scientists
has developed a theory for creation that embraces the latest scientific
advances. It is fully testable, falsifiable, and successfully predicts the
current discoveries in origin of life research.

“With the creation model approach every perspective is encouraged to
participate in the scientific process to see which theory best fits the
emerging data. With this cutting edge program no philosophical or religious
perspective is denied access. It holds the possibility of bringing to
resolution the creation /evolution controversy once and for all.”

Fazale Rana, Ph.D. is the vice president for science apologetics at Reasons
To Believe. Dr. Rana earned his Bachelor’s and Master’s Degrees in Biology
and Biochemistry at West Virginia State College and his Ph.D. in Chemistry
at Ohio University. He was twice winner of the Clippinger Research Award at
Ohio University. Dr. Rana worked for seven years as a senior scientist in
product development for Procter & Gamble before joining Reasons To Believe.
He has published more than fifteen articles in peer-reviewed scientific
journals and delivered more than twenty presentations at international
scientific conferences. Dr. Rana is the co-author of the chapter on Anti
Microbial Peptides for Biological and Synthetic Membranes in addition to
contributing numerous feature articles to Facts for Faith magazine. Origins
of Life:Biblical and Evolutionary Models Face Off is Dr. Rana’s first book.
His newest title, Who Was Adam?: A Creation Model Approach to the Origin of
Man is due to release in September ’05.

For more information visit the Reasons To Believe website at www.reasons.org
.

To schedule an interview contact Kathleen Campbell; Campbell Public
Relations, LLC; 877-540-6022; kcampbell@thecompletesolution.com

This press release is remarkable in a number of respects. On the one hand, Rana calls ID to task for not taking a stand on the age of the earth when the fact is that every ID theorist develops ID arguments consistent with standard geological and cosmological dating (i.e., billions, not thousands). Thus, if there are young-earth creationists in our midst, they put their young-earth creationism aside when focusing on ID. This is not to say that they stop believing creationism or lay it aside when considering other scientific questions, like the age of the Earth. The point is that for ID, neither thousands nor billions of years make the problem of design in nature go away. The age question is irrelevant to ID.

On the other hand, Rana dismisses our efforts to develop ID as a scientific program and advertises RTB’s own approach to biological origins as the science of the future. In response to this press release, I wrote Drs. Rana and Ross the following:

I’ve been meaning to ask you about the press release. I’m curious about Fuz’s appeal to Popper’s falsifiability criterion as a defining condition for science. String theory, for instance, isn’t falsifiable at present; maybe it isn’t science, but lots of people in physics departments do it. And yet it seems that RTB is not about to issue a press release against discussing string theory in science classrooms.

But isn’t the real issue not falsifiability but confirmation/disconfirmation. A scientific theory should be disconfirmable by evidence. Whereas falsifiability is supposed to be dramatic and fatal to a theory, disconfirmation merely renders it less plausible. ID is certainly disconfirmable: if someone takes an allegedly irreducibly complex system and finds a good neo-Darwinist story to explain it, then ID is disconfirmed. If you don’t agree, please let me know why.

[[Note that in writing this letter, I drew from a private email by a colleague on Rana’s press release — I would name this colleague, but because his academic position is at this time not secure, I need to preserve confidentiality.]]

Neither Fazale Rana nor Hugh Ross ever responded to this email.

As for their theory of creation, known as the RTB model, which Rana’s press release promises will bring “to resolution the creation/evolution controversy once and for all,” I encourage readers to look at it closely. This theory, known as “the RTB Biblical Creation Model,” appears in a book by Rana and Ross titled Origins of Life: Biblical and Evolutionary Models Face Off. Their model, which states that God created life as recounted in the Bible, is supposed to establish its scientific bona fides through eight predictions on pages 43 and 44 of that book. Here are these eight predictions (note that boldface and italics are as they appear in the text):

The RTB Model’s Predictions

The RTB biblical creation model for the origin of life sets forth the following central ideas and predictions:

1. Life appeared early in Earth’s history, while the planet was still in its primodial state. The backdrop for the origin of life in Genesis 1:2 was an early Earth enveloped entirely in water and as yet untransformed by tectonic and volcanic activity. This tenet anticipates the discovery of life’s remains in the part of the geological column that corresponds to earth Earth.

2. Life originated in and persisted through the hostile conditions of early Earth. Genesis 1:2 describes early Earth as tohu wabohu, an empty wasteland. This model maintains that God nurtured the seeds of Earth’s first life, perhaps re-creating these seeds each time they were destroyed. This model predicts that science will discover life’s first emergence under the hellish conditions of early Earth.

3. Life Orignated abruptly. If God created the first life on Earth through direct intervention, one can reasonably assume that life appeared suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere. This model predicts that the planetary and geological record will demonstrate life’s emergence in a narrow, if not instantaneous, time window.

4. Earth’s first life displays complexity. If a Creator brought life into existence, first life should display significant complexity. Therefore, the RTB Model predicts that fossil and geochemical remains will indicate that Earth’s earliest life forms display complexity.

5. Life is complex in its mininal form. Life in its simplest form should also display considerable complexity. An inherent minimal complexity reasonably indicates that life has been intelligently crafted.

6. Life’s chemistry displays hallmark characteristics of design. Systems and structures produced by intelligent agents typically possess characteristics that distinguish them from those produced by natural processes. These properties serve as indicators of design. They will be apparent in biochemical systems of the cell if the biblical Creator is responsible for life. . . .

7. First life was qualitatively different from life that came into existence on creation days three, five, and six. The third creation day describes the creation of plants. . . . The fifth creation day discusses the creation of marine invertebrates and fish, marine mammals, and birds. The sixth creation day includes the creation of specialized land mammals. These multicellular advanced plants and animals are qualitatively different from the first life forms created on primordial Earth.

8. A purpose can be postulated for life’s early appearance on Earth. The RTB Model bears the burden of explaining why God would create life so early in Earth’s history and why (as well as when) He would create the specific types of life that appeared on primordial Earth. While God would be free to create life for nonutilitarian purposes, discernible reasons should exist for God’s bringing life into existence under the violent conditions of early Earth — conditions under which life could not persist and would presumably need to be re-created.

After reading and re-reading these predictions, I’m frankly scratching my head. These predictions, according to Rana and Ross, are supposed to render their model science whereas ID is not science? Take point 8: How is it a scientific prediction that “a purpose can be postulated for life’s early appearance on Earth”? This is so vague that it can’t count as a prediction. As for points 4 to 6, in drawing attention to the complexity of life and design detection, these points touch on central ID concerns (but note, neither Behe nor I receive any mention in the book’s index). But why should the complexity of life and design detection in living forms follow from Genesis? Presumably God could have made a world in which life forms were materially simple.

Bottom line: Creationists want more than ID is willing to deliver and are now distancing themselves from it.

Comments
"We may have believed design was at work in Stonehenge since it was a geometric formation of huge rocks, but we could only CONCLUDE that after finding old postholes in the area" We're not talking about a logical 100% conclusion; we could theoretically infer from first principles and come up with a high probability that it was designed (but I don't know enough about Stonehenge to make that justification). Probabilities of 0 or 1 are really strong statements anyways.anteater
October 12, 2005
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I'm afraid my challenge has been passed unmet: what is a cogent counter-argument to "From signs of intelligence, intelligence may be inferred?" If there is no cogent counterargument, there is no cogent counterargument against ID. If there is, produce it.jaredl
October 12, 2005
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Dave Scot,
Visible matter = 5% Dark matter = 20% Dark energy = 70%
Your percentages don't add up to 100.
No one has a clue what dark energy is or if it's even real. It's more likely, IMO, that the theory of gravity is flawed.
What we know for sure is that the expansion of the universe is accelerating and the universe is flat. There has to be a sizable anti-gravity force present, and at the moment the best theory has it coming from the comological constant. Thus we do have a clue about what dark energy is--we believe it to be the vacuum energy density. It may turn out that we are wrong--that happens a lot in science--but we now have a model that fits the data and makes predictions and, to my delight, exhibits extreme fine-tuning. I have no comment on your "opinion" that it is probably the case that the theory of gravity is flawed. neurode: There is some truth that the multiverse theories do not completely avoid the problem--especially the origins question. However, some of them, such as Linde's chaotic inflation essentially take us back to a kind of steady state--a unstable equilibrium that has always existed that is constantly creating new universes. (I am not saying I support this model, in fact I don't.) The point is these are smart people doing physics with no anti-Christianity agenda--they are not morons simply because they disagree with Dave Scot.David Heddle
October 12, 2005
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Dave: That goes back to what I said earlier. If you don't educate yourself on Rushmore, you'll jump to the conclusion that it was designed. You are the one who is creating a straw man by insisting that we look at Mt. Rushmore in a context of "What if we didn't know it was designed?" when the bottom line is that we do know that it was designed. We may have believed design was at work in Stonehenge since it was a geometric formation of huge rocks, but we could only CONCLUDE that after finding old postholes in the area. The key word you are using is "inference." And it goes right to the heart of the matter: You are willing to conclude design first and prove it later. I am not. Since our debate is going in circles, this is where I leave you.higgity
October 12, 2005
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Anteater "The probabilities don't come out right? Just add more resources into our model! A better solution would be to change the model altogether." Exactly. Infinity trumps almost impossible odds every time.DaveScot
October 12, 2005
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The multiverse theory seems absurd to me because a few minutes reflection showed that even a small amount of matter would in a short time generate such a profusion of new universes, and that profusion would grow exponentially larger as more and more universes generated more and more particle interactions to produce yet more universes quicker and quicker to the point that the universes would be speeding away from each other faster than light.avocationist
October 12, 2005
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Higgity "We know Rushmore was designed because we have documented evidence that it happened." YOU know that. Not everyone in the world knows the history of Rushmore. The premise is that someone who has no knowledge of that history would make a design inference upon seeing it. Your continue to argue against a straw man. Stonehenge is in an area where glaciers deposited out of context stones in sometimes interesting formations. You are correct that one cannot just jump to the conclusion it was designed as it's possible that a glacier desposited those stones. The design inference at Stonehenge was made long before anyone had archeological evidence hinting at who made it. The design inference is made because the formation conforms to an independently given pattern and it is complex. The possibility of a glacier depositing stones in an independently given pattern of that complexity is too remote to pass the giggle test.DaveScot
October 12, 2005
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Multiverse theory, whether or not it has merits, has sort of become an 'escape hatch' for naturalists. The probabilities don't come out right? Just add more resources into our model! A better solution would be to change the model altogether.anteater
October 12, 2005
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"As an aside I wonder if RTBers feel the same disdain toward YEC in general (i.e., it is not science) as they do toward ID?" Yes, they certainly feel more disdain towards YEC than ID. I once heard an RTBer say that evolutionists are 2/3rds wrong and YECers are 2/3rds wrong. They fail to see that the controversy between OEC and YEC is small; only a few orders of magnitude. However, the distinction between design and non-design is an impassable chasm. We shouldn't get hung up about OEC vs. YEC; it is easy to unite behind design. Once design takes down naturalistic Darwinism, then we can sort out our differences.anteater
October 12, 2005
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Dr. Heddle You're quite the equivocator. Everyone who follows cosmology knows the best current guesses for composition of the universe following from gravitational interaction: Visible matter = 5% Dark matter = 20% Dark energy = 70% The cosmological constant was thrown out decades ago. Now it's back due to observation of accelerating expansion that wasn't predicted by theory. This is a very recent development. No one has a clue what dark energy is or if it's even real. It's more likely, IMO, that the theory of gravity is flawed. In any case, you should have known right away what I was talking about if you're as knowledgeable as you pretend to be. "I didn't attemt to dispute it, because it wasn't worth the electrons." Well, you got that right. The logical implications of multiverse theory aren't worth discussing. They're ludicrous. Multiverse theory is ludicrous. Connect the dots, doctor. It's a self-evident truth.DaveScot
October 12, 2005
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David Heddle: "The multiverse theory is that they would have different values in different universes. It, like design, is a perfect though untestable explanation for the fine tuning. Fits all the data. It is a question of which you prefer to believe." Multiverse theories have a problem: to avoid explaining the collapse of the qwf, or allowing that the observable cosmos had a special origin, they affirm that all (internally self-consistent) possibilities are realized within some set of physical or metaphysical constraints. However, this merely pushes the problems of origin and collapse back to a wider, prior context in which the origin and collapse problems spring forth anew. To wit, instead of asking how the observable universe originated, multiverse theorists merely widen the focus of the origins question to the multiverse, i.e., the overall system which "keeps the books" for all of the universes undergoing causal divergence within it. To put the question another way, how are the constraints on "possibilities" initially defined? Without an account of this process, one cannot adequately characterize an overall ontic potential ("multiverse"); one has no initial source of information from which to begin. In this sense, multiverse hypotheses as currently formulated are physically and cosmologically worthless from not just an empirical standpoint, but a theoretical one as well. From the standpoint of Occam's razor alone, one is better off seeking to explain the origin of the observable cosmos alone...this, at least, does not involve an exponential explosion of the logical entities called "universes". It follows that multiverse theories offer no real scientific alternative to fine tuning arguments (with all due respect, of course, for the consderable expertise of Dr. Heddle).neurode
October 12, 2005
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DaveScot: I am laughing at your attempt to prop up a weak analogy for your side. We know Rushmore was designed because we have documented evidence that it happened. As for Stonehenge, we know that it was designed and constructed by humans because we have found evidence consistent with architectural and construction techniques. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge Hypothetically, if there were no evidence for design in either Rushmore or Stonehenge, the scientific mind would be forced to conclude that they were both incredibly amazing phenomena. You can't just jump to the conclusion that they were designed. Ya know, the Greeks and Romans ascribed things like lightning and famine to their gods. Over its entire history, when mankind couldn't explain something, it would always default to the supernatural. Now we know how lightning strikes happen and why there wasn't enough rain to make Farmer Jay's crops grow. The list of things that we explain via the supernatural gets smaller every day.higgity
October 12, 2005
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Dave Scot,
I notice you did not attempt to dispute my point that in an infinite number of universes there must be one each where God created Eve out of an infinite number of permutations of body parts.
I didn't attemt to dispute it, because it wasn't worth the electrons.
I'm referring to dark matter and dark energy.
Your comment "what do these physicists postulate composes the 95% of the “stuff” in the universe that theory doesn't predict?" was nebulous. We have theories for what dark matter is (non interacting partcles such as nutrinos) and dark energy (the vacuum energy density or cosmological constant) so you'll have to excuse me for not knowing what the hell you were talking about, since it had no connection to reality.
Fine tuning is made obvious from knowledge acquired via *experimental* physics.
Partially true, but wrong in the sense you mean it. The fine tuning in the cosmological constant is related to the fact that theory predicts a large value, while observation puts the upper limit at a very small, non zero number. If we didn't know the theory, we wouldn't know the CC was fine tuned. Similarly, if we didn't know how to calculate the nuclear chemistry inside a star, we wouldn't know how sensitive it is to the relative strengths of the fundamental forces. Fine tuning only makes sense in light of theory. Yes, you need observations, but without the theory you'd have no appreciation for the fine tuning.
Multiverse arguments are just plain silly when one begins to consider the logical consequences of it.
I wish that were true, but your assertion doesn't make it so.
The physical constants (or enough of them) are well characterized and supported by repeatable experiment that a case cannot be made they're sufficiently wrong to significantly undermine the fine tuning argument.
Once again I have no idea what you are talking about. Nobody is making a case that they are "wrong." The multiverse theory is that they would have different values in different universes. It, like design, is a perfect though untestable explanation for the fine tuning. Fits all the data. It is a question of which you prefer to believe.David Heddle
October 12, 2005
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Higgity Instead of Mt. Rushmore let's talk about Stonehenge as there is no documentation of its design or construction. Tell me if you think Stonehenge was designed or not. Support your answer.DaveScot
October 12, 2005
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Davescot, your statement is about as inflammatory as this one by PZ Myers: "A religion that declares the bible inerrant is not compatible with science, because its followers would have to be idiots." Does that lead to a productive discussion? No. All it does is put the other side on the defensive and puts up an emotional barrier that prevents the other from thinking about your arguments coherently. I may disagree with Dr. Heddle on specific aspects of Calvinism and that supporting ALL fine-tuning arguments requires the support of a particular cosmological model but I'm not about to go and call him a moron for it (though, honestly, the thought does flash through my mind... *beats those bad thoughts back with a stick* ;) ).Gumpngreen
October 12, 2005
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Dr. Heddle Is it possible you assign such credence to your multiverse adversaries because without them there would be no debate? In other words, you want the controversy. If your opponents didn't exist you'd have to invent them! That is a big motivating factor for me but I prefer more of a challenge. There's no challenge in arguing for Cosmological ID. It's just too easy to point out it's theoretical nature and the absurd consequences that follow from it. Biological ID on the other hand is a tougher row to how as it passes the giggle test and has some basis in experimental science (microevolution to support RM+MS and molecular homology in support of common ancestry). The Darwinian narrative only falls apart when unjustifiable extrapolations are made from microevolutionary adaptation and molecular homology to a comprehensive story about mud to man evolution.DaveScot
October 12, 2005
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Dr. Heddle I notice you did not attempt to dispute my point that in an infinite number of universes there must be one each where God created Eve out of an infinite number of permutations of body parts. Obviously you ignored it because 1) you know that it is a logical necessity following from an infinity of universes and 2) it's so silly it makes anyone who confirms it look like a moron. Multiverse theory doesn't pass the giggle test and your refusal to carry it through to inescapable logical consequences for fear of being laughed at is compelling evidence of its absurdity. "Are you talking about dark matter?" Eh? I can hardly imagine a physicist who claims to be up to date on cosmology and multiverse models would need to ask that question. I'm referring to dark matter and dark energy. That you'd recognize dark matter and fail to mention dark energy indicates you haven't been keeping up with cosmology very well in the past few years. Fine tuning is made obvious from knowledge acquired via *experimental* physics. In fact the fine tuning argument is what turned me from atheist to agnostic 15 years ago. It's multiverse models of *theoretical* physics that earn my derision. I'd focus more on the fine tuning argument if there were reasonable alternatives to it or if there were any question of the supportive data being wrong. Multiverse arguments are just plain silly when one begins to consider the logical consequences of it. The physical constants (or enough of them) are well characterized and supported by repeatable experiment that a case cannot be made they're sufficiently wrong to significantly undermine the fine tuning argument.DaveScot
October 12, 2005
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Morpheus faith, You must have misread what I wrote, because your respose only makes sense if I had said "multiverses are on firmer scientific footing than design." What I said was, I can understand how a person would choose multiverses over design as an explanation for fine tuning, especially given that modern theory suggests multiverses. Such a person is not to be dismissed as a "moron." Dave Scot,
The multiverse argument employed against fine-tuning is pure logical rubbish. Only the feeble minded and/or secular zealouts (do I repeat myself there?) entertain it.
Are you joking, or do you actually consider that this argument is worth making? Dave Scot,
Dr. Heddle, what do these physicists postulate composes the 95% of the “stuff” in the universe that theory doesn't predict? Seems to me a theory that only predicts 5% of what's observed has a rather long way to go before it's right.
Are you talking about dark matter? Let me understand your position on fine tuning and your confidence in modern physics. Because the two are related. And on the one hand you seem to rally behing fine tuning, but on the other you cast aspersions at modern physics. This is, in my opinion, an inconsistent position. The reason we have a good fine-tuning design argument is because of the tremendous success of modern physics. To then say that, in effect, cosmology stinks is more of the "lets have our cake and eat it too." If cosmology is really bad, then the fine tuning it uncovered is suspect.David Heddle
October 12, 2005
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Heddle and Higgity: My point about ID and "noone can argue against it without looking like a moron" was not about the origins side of ID, but rather as ID as the philosophy that material explanations are not sufficient to explain what happens every day. If you want a good example of what I'm talking about, see this conversation I had over on FR. I eventually stopped responding when it was apparent that the person I was discussing the topic had to resort to logical contradictions and contortions within a single post to defend himself: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1497875/posts?page=96#96 It's the thread from post 96 through 101. The foundation of ID is that intelligent processes are separate from material processes and should be considered separately. Might Dembski's work be shown false? Possibly, but I doubt it. Might other parts of origins be shown false? I think they will be shown to not be radical enough. But the part that is simply not defendable on the basis of everyday experience is the foundation of ID -- that intelligent action is a separate causitive force from natural law and chance.johnnyb
October 12, 2005
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Design theory makes a claim based on circumstantial inferences. Of course there is no plan or layed out blue print, because it happened so long ago. If you ask an evolutionist how RM+NS can create novel body parts and species, he or she just says,"Well, I don't know, however, an inference from the data, by far, warrants an evolutionary process." So Design is an inference, not something that can be implemented. To me, that's perfect legitimate science at work.Benjii
October 12, 2005
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Higgity I'm laughing at your weak attempt to equivocate your way out of this. Say we take an aborigine that cannot read and has no prior knowledge of Mt. Rushmore, bring him by Mt. Rushmore, and ask him it if he thinks it was sculpted by design or accident. When you're at the hypothetical library teaching the aborigine to read so he can study the history of Mt. Rushmore I suggest you pick up an introductory tome on formal logic and study the "straw man" argument.DaveScot
October 12, 2005
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If there's an infinite number of universes it then follows there's an infinite number of them where God created man. There must also be universes where God created Eve not from a rib but from a finger, an eyelash, and really any body part you care to mention. That's the nature of infinity. The multiverse argument employed against fine-tuning is pure logical rubbish. Only the feeble minded and/or secular zealouts (do I repeat myself there?) entertain it. Dr. Heddle, what do these physicists postulate composes the 95% of the "stuff" in the universe that theory doesn't predict? Seems to me a theory that only predicts 5% of what's observed has a rather long way to go before it's right. You know what I think about that missing 95%? It's proof the programmers of the computer simulation we exist within are not perfect.DaveScot
October 12, 2005
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Benji: Once you pick up the watch, a simple visit to the library is all it takes to see how watches are designed. "The Mt. Rushmore analogy is premised by the observer having no prior knowledge of its origin." If that is how the analogy is presented, then what it is saying is "Here's Mt. Rushmore. Let's assume there's no evidence sitting on my desk that indicates that it was planned, blueprinted, and dynamited. Let's just assume that it was designed." What you should be doing is the same thing you did for the watch. You walk down to the library and read a book on the plans for Mt. Rushmore. You can look at newspaper clippings from the time period for day-by-day coverage of the project. The comparison is absurd on its face. People watched and documented Mt. Rushmore. I have yet to see a newspaper clipping with a headline saying "Intelligent Designer Lays Out Plans For New Species: 'Cheetorilla' To Be Athletically Designed Powerhouse Treeswinger."higgity
October 12, 2005
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"How is it that multiverse theories do not pass the giggle test?" Are you asking me or one of the the other DaveScots standing in an infinitely long line behind me? [giggle] "They are possible in the most current inflationary big bang models and quantum gravity." It's also possible that we're living in "The Matrix" and everything we perceive is immaterial computer fabricated inputs to illusory material human sense organs. A good example of infinity is the number of hare brained "possibilities" out there. "one is forced to chose between design or multiverses" That's what the machines who create the illusory material universe we perceive want you to believe. Their nefarious plan works only too well! "What exactly do you hope to accomplish by dismissing the opposition as morons?" Nothing. Experience has shown you can't change a moron's mind because they really don't have a mind to change. P.S. There's only 1 't' in Scot. I don't misspell my own name.DaveScot
October 12, 2005
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Jaredl: "There are counter arguments to cosmological ID, such as multiverses, and to biological ID, such as evolution. Just because we don't agree with them doesn't make their arguments “moronic.”" Reply: There are no "counter arguments" to cosmological ID that hold any weight. Multiple universes can only mitigate the calibration of natural laws if a near infinite number of them exist. And, as I have pointed out elsewhere, the invokation of an infinite (or excessively large) number of universes is a science stopper. http://www.arn.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/ubb/get_topic/f/13/t/002396.html#000000morpheusfaith
October 12, 2005
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Dave Scott, How is it that multiverse theories do not pass the giggle test? They are possible in the most current inflationary big bang models and quantum gravity. That doesn't mean they exist, but it gives a gravitas to the idea that must be addressed. In fact, looking at all the evidence for fine tuning, I would argue that one is forced to chose between design or multiverses. I choose design, but I can easily understand why others choose multiverses. They are certainly not morons. What exactly do you hope to accomplish by dismissing the opposition as morons? At best, that only plays well when preaching to the choir.David Heddle
October 12, 2005
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Dr. Heddle "it just makes our side look foolish if the best we can come up with is “whoever disagrees is a moron.”" What on earth justifies your implication that the best johhnyb can come up with is "whoever disagrees is a moron"? I've seen him make wonderful arguments opposing various bits of specious crap offered up by Darwinian narrative apologists. The "moron" statement you have such a problem with is a small conclusive capstone, far from the best johhnyb (or "we") can come up with. Your statement demonstrates either a civility so profound it would spell your own extinction should you venture out into the jungle that is the real world or just a case of you not doing your homework. Possibly both.DaveScot
October 12, 2005
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David Heddle Multiverse theories don't pass the giggle test. Standard goo to zoo evolution barely does. Statements like those from the 38 Nobel laureates, given with such intellectual brio it makes their peers gasp in wonder while making everyone else roll their eyes, about evolution being understood to be an unguided, unplanned process supported by overwhelming evidence, is just silly. Morons say silly things. Or in this case idiot savantes. Or maybe bald faced liars. There is not a shred of direct evidence that any single bit of evolution was unplanned. To make such a conclusion with conviction requires a metaphysical faith that the universe is non-deterministic. You of all people should know that.DaveScot
October 12, 2005
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higgity The Mt. Rushmore analogy is premised by the observer having no prior knowledge of its origin. Every time Darwinian narrative apologists distort what ID theorists say it makes their side look too weak to take on undistorted ID theory. The whole world laughs at their weakness. :-) :-) :-)DaveScot
October 12, 2005
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jaredl, There are counter arguments to cosmological ID, such as multiverses, and to biological ID, such as evolution. Just because we don't agree with them doesn't make their arguments "moronic." And it just makes our side look foolish if the best we can come up with is "whoever disagrees is a moron." That is the argument of someone who is not willing to do their homework.David Heddle
October 12, 2005
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