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Creationism’s Reluctance to Enter ID’s Big Tent

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Critics of ID are quick to label it creationism. It is therefore ironic that creationists are increasingly reluctant to identify themselves as design theorists. Creationists, both of the young-earth and the old-earth variety, tend to think ID doesn’t go far enough and hesitate to embrace ID’s widening circle of allies, a circle that now includes Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, New Agers, and non-dogmatic agnostics. Indeed, creationists are increasingly distancing themselves from ID’s big tent.

By creationism, I don’t mean merely the belief that God created the world. All theists believe that. Rather, creationism denotes the view that the Bible, and Genesis in particular, guarantees the truth of certain scientific models. Thus, for instance, the young-earth creationist model of flood geology (and, in particular, the use of this model to explain the fossil record) finds its ultimate support in the Genesis account of Noah’s flood. Rather than simply following the evidence wherever it goes and letting the science speak for itself (which is the stated aim of ID), creationism is self-consciously involved in a Bible-science controversy. Because creationists have, in their view, an inside track on scientific truth through the Bible, they already know more (or think they do) than any ID theorist can ever know. For them, ID is too thin a soup on which to nourish a robust creationism. Hence their increasing refusal to place themselves under ID’s big tent.

As evidence, I cite the following three items:

(1) The Institute for Creation Research‘s (ICR’s) 2005-2006 Resource Catalog includes no books published by ID proponents after 2000 — and the bulk of our books have been published since then. In particular, none of my work appears in their catalog. More telling still is where ICR is placing its bets, namely, on showing that the earth is thousands rather than billions of years old. Thus, the very first item, prominently displayed, in that Resource Catalog is a book and video titled Thousands . . . Not Billions. If the earth is indeed thousands rather than billions of years old and this young age can be settled definitiely, then not only will young-earth creationism be vindicated but evolution will be disproven immediately as a straightforward corollary (there simply wouldn’t be any time for evolution to have taken place). Thus, rather than cast their lot with ID, which admits an old earth (if only for the sake of argument, though most ID proponents I know do indeed hold to an old earth) and requires a case-by-case analysis of biological systems to determine their design characteristics and the obstacles these present to evolvability, ICR appears to want a quick and decisive solution. Good luck to them in pulling it off.

(2) Reasons to Believe (RTB) is the ministry of old-earth creationist Hugh Ross. Their online store (go here) serves the same role for RTB as ICR’s Resource Catalog. It too is very sparse in ID offerings. As with ICR, RTB has no books by ID proponents on the biological aspects of ID subsequent to 2000 (with regard to the cosmological aspects of ID, there is one exception, namely, The Privileged Planet by Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay Richards, which is not surprising given that Gonzalez is a long-time associate of RTB). Again, none of my work is in that catalog, with one exception: Mere Creation. This book is the procedings of a conference from 1996 at which Hugh Ross spoke, so he has an essay in the book. Nonetheless, the RTB Store lists Mere Creation as a clearance item, indicating that RTB will soon no longer carry it.

(3) RTB’s official press release in August 2005 claimed that ID is not science (even the young-earth creationists don’t go this far). Note that Fazale Rana is the number-two man at RTB and Hugh Ross’s collaborator on a number of projects:

From: CCNWashDC@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 05,his 2005 3:30 PM
To: newsdesk@earnedmedia.org
Subject: PR: Creation Scientist says Intelligent Design Has No Place in
Public School Science Curriculum

“As currently formulated, Intelligent Design is not science,” says Dr.
Fazale Rana, internationally respected biochemist and one of the world’s
leading experts in origin of life research.

To: National Desk

Contact: Kathleen Campbell, Campbell Public Relations, 877-540-6022,
kcampbell@thecompletesolution.com

NEWS ADVISORY, Aug. 5 /Christian Wire Service
/ — Internationally respected
biochemist and one of the world’s leading experts in origin of life
research, Fazale “Fuz” Rana, PhD, is available for comment on the validity
of teaching “Intelligent Design” in public schools. Dr. Rana states:

“As currently formulated, Intelligent Design is not science. It is not
falsifiable and makes no predictions about future scientific discoveries.

“As a biochemist I am opposed to introducing any idea into the educational
process that is scientifically ludicrous. Proponents of Intelligent Design
lose credibility, for instance, when they say that the Earth is thousands of
years old when the scientific evidence and the fossil record clearly prove
our Earth is at least 4.5 billion years.

“At Reasons To Believe , our team of scientists
has developed a theory for creation that embraces the latest scientific
advances. It is fully testable, falsifiable, and successfully predicts the
current discoveries in origin of life research.

“With the creation model approach every perspective is encouraged to
participate in the scientific process to see which theory best fits the
emerging data. With this cutting edge program no philosophical or religious
perspective is denied access. It holds the possibility of bringing to
resolution the creation /evolution controversy once and for all.”

Fazale Rana, Ph.D. is the vice president for science apologetics at Reasons
To Believe. Dr. Rana earned his Bachelor’s and Master’s Degrees in Biology
and Biochemistry at West Virginia State College and his Ph.D. in Chemistry
at Ohio University. He was twice winner of the Clippinger Research Award at
Ohio University. Dr. Rana worked for seven years as a senior scientist in
product development for Procter & Gamble before joining Reasons To Believe.
He has published more than fifteen articles in peer-reviewed scientific
journals and delivered more than twenty presentations at international
scientific conferences. Dr. Rana is the co-author of the chapter on Anti
Microbial Peptides for Biological and Synthetic Membranes in addition to
contributing numerous feature articles to Facts for Faith magazine. Origins
of Life:Biblical and Evolutionary Models Face Off is Dr. Rana’s first book.
His newest title, Who Was Adam?: A Creation Model Approach to the Origin of
Man is due to release in September ’05.

For more information visit the Reasons To Believe website at www.reasons.org
.

To schedule an interview contact Kathleen Campbell; Campbell Public
Relations, LLC; 877-540-6022; kcampbell@thecompletesolution.com

This press release is remarkable in a number of respects. On the one hand, Rana calls ID to task for not taking a stand on the age of the earth when the fact is that every ID theorist develops ID arguments consistent with standard geological and cosmological dating (i.e., billions, not thousands). Thus, if there are young-earth creationists in our midst, they put their young-earth creationism aside when focusing on ID. This is not to say that they stop believing creationism or lay it aside when considering other scientific questions, like the age of the Earth. The point is that for ID, neither thousands nor billions of years make the problem of design in nature go away. The age question is irrelevant to ID.

On the other hand, Rana dismisses our efforts to develop ID as a scientific program and advertises RTB’s own approach to biological origins as the science of the future. In response to this press release, I wrote Drs. Rana and Ross the following:

I’ve been meaning to ask you about the press release. I’m curious about Fuz’s appeal to Popper’s falsifiability criterion as a defining condition for science. String theory, for instance, isn’t falsifiable at present; maybe it isn’t science, but lots of people in physics departments do it. And yet it seems that RTB is not about to issue a press release against discussing string theory in science classrooms.

But isn’t the real issue not falsifiability but confirmation/disconfirmation. A scientific theory should be disconfirmable by evidence. Whereas falsifiability is supposed to be dramatic and fatal to a theory, disconfirmation merely renders it less plausible. ID is certainly disconfirmable: if someone takes an allegedly irreducibly complex system and finds a good neo-Darwinist story to explain it, then ID is disconfirmed. If you don’t agree, please let me know why.

[[Note that in writing this letter, I drew from a private email by a colleague on Rana’s press release — I would name this colleague, but because his academic position is at this time not secure, I need to preserve confidentiality.]]

Neither Fazale Rana nor Hugh Ross ever responded to this email.

As for their theory of creation, known as the RTB model, which Rana’s press release promises will bring “to resolution the creation/evolution controversy once and for all,” I encourage readers to look at it closely. This theory, known as “the RTB Biblical Creation Model,” appears in a book by Rana and Ross titled Origins of Life: Biblical and Evolutionary Models Face Off. Their model, which states that God created life as recounted in the Bible, is supposed to establish its scientific bona fides through eight predictions on pages 43 and 44 of that book. Here are these eight predictions (note that boldface and italics are as they appear in the text):

The RTB Model’s Predictions

The RTB biblical creation model for the origin of life sets forth the following central ideas and predictions:

1. Life appeared early in Earth’s history, while the planet was still in its primodial state. The backdrop for the origin of life in Genesis 1:2 was an early Earth enveloped entirely in water and as yet untransformed by tectonic and volcanic activity. This tenet anticipates the discovery of life’s remains in the part of the geological column that corresponds to earth Earth.

2. Life originated in and persisted through the hostile conditions of early Earth. Genesis 1:2 describes early Earth as tohu wabohu, an empty wasteland. This model maintains that God nurtured the seeds of Earth’s first life, perhaps re-creating these seeds each time they were destroyed. This model predicts that science will discover life’s first emergence under the hellish conditions of early Earth.

3. Life Orignated abruptly. If God created the first life on Earth through direct intervention, one can reasonably assume that life appeared suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere. This model predicts that the planetary and geological record will demonstrate life’s emergence in a narrow, if not instantaneous, time window.

4. Earth’s first life displays complexity. If a Creator brought life into existence, first life should display significant complexity. Therefore, the RTB Model predicts that fossil and geochemical remains will indicate that Earth’s earliest life forms display complexity.

5. Life is complex in its mininal form. Life in its simplest form should also display considerable complexity. An inherent minimal complexity reasonably indicates that life has been intelligently crafted.

6. Life’s chemistry displays hallmark characteristics of design. Systems and structures produced by intelligent agents typically possess characteristics that distinguish them from those produced by natural processes. These properties serve as indicators of design. They will be apparent in biochemical systems of the cell if the biblical Creator is responsible for life. . . .

7. First life was qualitatively different from life that came into existence on creation days three, five, and six. The third creation day describes the creation of plants. . . . The fifth creation day discusses the creation of marine invertebrates and fish, marine mammals, and birds. The sixth creation day includes the creation of specialized land mammals. These multicellular advanced plants and animals are qualitatively different from the first life forms created on primordial Earth.

8. A purpose can be postulated for life’s early appearance on Earth. The RTB Model bears the burden of explaining why God would create life so early in Earth’s history and why (as well as when) He would create the specific types of life that appeared on primordial Earth. While God would be free to create life for nonutilitarian purposes, discernible reasons should exist for God’s bringing life into existence under the violent conditions of early Earth — conditions under which life could not persist and would presumably need to be re-created.

After reading and re-reading these predictions, I’m frankly scratching my head. These predictions, according to Rana and Ross, are supposed to render their model science whereas ID is not science? Take point 8: How is it a scientific prediction that “a purpose can be postulated for life’s early appearance on Earth”? This is so vague that it can’t count as a prediction. As for points 4 to 6, in drawing attention to the complexity of life and design detection, these points touch on central ID concerns (but note, neither Behe nor I receive any mention in the book’s index). But why should the complexity of life and design detection in living forms follow from Genesis? Presumably God could have made a world in which life forms were materially simple.

Bottom line: Creationists want more than ID is willing to deliver and are now distancing themselves from it.

Comments
I guess a watch that is found on the road cannot be designed because we don't know the identity of the designer.Benjii
October 12, 2005
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"What I personally love about ID is that it’s so obvious that noone can argue against it without looking like a moron." This is arguably a form of the criticism that ID can never be proved wrong, therefore ID is not science. Weird how that works out. jaredl: Intelligence may NOT be inferred because we have no evidence of an intelligence. Whenever Michael Behe makes a comparison to Mount Rushmore and how we can see design there and therefore we can infer design, he is being laughed at by every non-IDer on the face of the planet. We know Mount Rushmore is designed because we have documented evidence that plans were drawn up, rock was blown up, and Teddy's monocle was tweaked.higgity
October 12, 2005
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Well, humor me, Mr. Heddle - what is a cogent counter-argument to "from signs of intelligence, intelligence may be inferred?"jaredl
October 12, 2005
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[...] From “Creationism’s Reluctance to Enter ID’s Big Tent“: Critics of ID are quick to label it creationism. It is therefore ironic that creationists are increasingly reluctant to identify themselves as design theorists. Creationists, both of the young-earth and the old-earth variety, tend to think ID doesn’t goes far enough and hesitate to embrace ID’s widening circle of allies, a circle that now includes Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, New Agers, and non-dogmatic agnostics. Indeed, creationists are increasingly distancing themselves from ID’s big tent. [...]Jeremy’s Stuff and Things » Blog Archive » Creationists Think Intelligent Design is Scary?
October 12, 2005
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Johnnyb wrote:
What I personally love about ID is that it’s so obvious that noone can argue against it without looking like a moron. It shows the obviousness of secularism as a religion.
This is simply not true, and a very bad attitude to have. One can certainly construct cogent and well thought out arguments for or against ID. To dismiss the other side as morons is to make the same mistake that they do. And I don't see how is helpful to press the point that secularism is a religion (Then what is not a religion?) on the one hand and argue that ID has nothing to do with religion on the other. There is an aphorism concerning having your cake and eating it too.David Heddle
October 12, 2005
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Mark Perakh's reluctance to become respected... http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2005/10/origin_of_the_n.htmlDaveScot
October 12, 2005
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Well, i cant say from [ my understanding ] of the bible it really supports the YEC, or gives supports the other [old earth creation]. The bible isn't really clear if the universe , the earth etc. is 6 - 10 thousand years old or 10 billion years old. Thats really the big problem with those who support either the young earth model or the old earth. They cant come to an agreement on the matter when they try to base their world view in this case on the age of the earth with the bible. If the bible did then we wouldn't have this separation from within the parties ?. I think the beauty of ID is it doesn't state the designer. With ID, you don't have to be a particular religion or even belive in one to be included in its realm or scope of science. So if you are a or happen to be a Christian you could affiliate the designer with the God of the Bible, Same thing with Muslims they can affiliate the designer with Allah, Hindus with their millions of Gods [lol], etc. Also if you don't belive in a "God" perse with ID you are free to belive that the designer could be an Alien for zeta something or other that i remember Eugeine referring to that somewhere. Even a time traveler from the distant future or past planting the miracle life seed and boom you could be in ID. Where as the young /old earth creationism model you would be limited or limit a believer in that model to the "God" of the Judeo-Christian bible [Fact is 4 non Christian religious people, a tough sell ]. Although in my point of view there's nothing wrong with that but with ID you can reach virtually every single persons who has a belief or faith in a designer with no limit on what faith or non faith, denomination, religious sect/belief that person belong to. All this to combat the crippling effect that naturalism / materialism has/d on our country but limited to [our country] from the time of the mighty Darwin. So instead of arguing over the minor things we should, remember what joins us together is the eventual termination [yes that should be a capital "T" ] of the "grip" the secular world has on the world / world of science. With good science and hard work and a helping hand from our mutual beneficial partners in the related but separate fields when the secular has pinned us into a corner we can combat and loosen that grip. Using that kind of powerful force is the best way we can take down Darwin and his mighty religious princes in power. P-s what would you do if you had a time machine [ relating to the realm of science only ] if i had a time machine i know exactly what i would do, pay our dear friend Darwin a visit. & no its not what you think, i would give him some first class ID books. probably would also modify the trix rabbits line abit and say.... "Stupid Darwin, atheistic secular humanism masked as SCIENCE is NOT good for kids " & also make sure that old rabbit finally get some well deserved trix cereal :) CharlieCharliecrs
October 11, 2005
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The textual form of Genesis is very much like that of Cuneiform records. See: http://www.trueorigin.org/tablet.aspjohnnyb
October 11, 2005
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I'm another Christian whose understanding of the Bible includes a creation week of six 24-hour days, roughly 6,000 years ago. There's a statement that goes, "If an omnipotent Creator exists He might have created things instantaneously in a single week or through gradual evolution over billions of years." True; however, if one believes the omnipotent Creator to be the God of the Bible, then one has to deal with the fact that this God has given an account of Creation. To me, the choices appear to be 1) accept that what he's on record as saying is true, and seek to explain any contrary evidence; or 2) recognize that what he's on record as saying doesn't tally with other evidence and that the record of his testimony is therefore suspect--either because the record is at fault, or because the testimony is at fault. For instance, God is on record as claiming that, "in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them" (Exodus 20:11). The genealogical records in Genesis 5 and 11 purport to represent an unbroken lineage from Adam to Abraham. If our world is billions of years old, or if life evolved over billions of years, then the biblical records would appear to be untrue. As for ID: I admire and respect what these guys are doing. I think of them as being on the front line of an important issue.intp147
October 11, 2005
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Just a thought about what is at the heart of RTB's disdain for ID as science. In his press release Dr. Rana says: "Proponents of Intelligent Design lose credibility, for instance, when they say that the Earth is thousands of years old when the scientific evidence and the fossil record clearly prove our Earth is at least 4.5 billion years". It seems to me like Dr. Rana is saying that ID can't be science because its adherents believe in young-earth creationism. His statement seems to indicate, at the very least, his failure to recognize the diversity within ID ranks. It is surprising that he misrepresents ID in much the same way as the Darwinists do. As an aside I wonder if RTBers feel the same disdain toward YEC in general (i.e., it is not science) as they do toward ID?drphil
October 11, 2005
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Bill, To be fair I don't see ID promoting any creationist books. Also it seems ID has different goals than those in creationist groups.Smidlee
October 11, 2005
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"one must consider the fact that the literary style of Genesis is historical narrative". C'mon Bombadill as a Christian you know that at the end of the day you must be guided first by the inspired text rather than mankind's efforts to interpret the distant past. A serious considerstion of the literary genre is what finally swayed me to a YEC position and I think its time you too joined the dark side!petro
October 11, 2005
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I've come to prefer a more literary/theological reading of Genesis 1:1-2:3 and just count on simple reading comprehension to see what the text says. In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was formless and empty. Over the next 6 days, God created form and replaced the emptiness. If you think of creating a database -- designing its structure and then populating its tables with objects -- you have a good modern metaphor for the story told in the ancient text. On day 1, he created the forms light and darkness, on day 4 he created the objects that populated those forms -- the sun, moon and stars. On day 2, he created the forms sea and atmosphere (and perhaps some sort of watery canopy high above), and on day 5 he populated those forms -- the sea with fish and great creatures and the sky with "every winged bird." On day 3, he created the form dryland by separating it from the seas and covering it with plants, and on day 6 he populated the form called land with livestock, creatures that move along the ground, wild animals and man. Further, this same literary structure reappears in the flood story, but in reverse. The land that God separated from the seas are swallowed when the atmosphere and its great canopy of waters above collapse. Every living thing that moved on the earth including man or flew through the air -- unless it was aboard the ark -- is wiped out. The world is de-created and de-populated in much the same language used when it was initially formed and filled with objects. And when God is done destroying, we are left in Genesis 8:1 with God remembering his creation and sending a wind over the face of the earth in much the same language of Genesis 1:2 where the Spirit of God was hovering, or brooding, over the primieval waters. The flood and creation are like bookends. Genesis 1-8 has it's own story to tell and it's not Darwin's nor, it seem to me, a force-the-Bible-to-fit-the-science story. Pesonally, I find the evidence strong that the earth has been here a long time. I also find the evidence for 'day' in Genesis 1 being anything other than a 24-hour period to be unconvincing. If we weren't trying to accomodate the long time frame modern science postulates, I doubt that we would be trying to stretch meanings of words in Genesis 1 beyond their common and straightforward usage. Further, given Genesis' sequence of creation, turning days into eons doesn't make peace with evolution. I think I'm probably an old-earth creationist who believes it happened in 6 days some number of billions of years ago -- and someone who finds all the science and ID's contribution gloriously interesting.Jack Golan
October 11, 2005
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Some fantastic insights in this thread. I'm a creationist, but the jury is out for me on the earth's age. That being said, I'm leaning heavily toward old earth. I sometimes wonder if God allowed ambiguity in the Genesis account so that we wouldn't get so focused on the "when" but instead we would revel in the majesty of the creation and it's creator. But then, one must consider the fact that the literary style of Genesis is historical narrative.Bombadill
October 11, 2005
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Anteater "The commenters on this thread can be an experiment (a microcosm) of who supports ID. Of course, the sample size on this blog is small, so it is an unreliable metric. On this thread, there is about 40% support for YECism. Just a first order approximation" I looked at some recent polling data to see if I was far off the mark. It appears I was and your estimate is pretty darn good. This poll says 44%. Of course that's assuming that nearly all YECers are ID supporters. If only half of them are then my estimate would be correct. It seems like most of them are ID supporters. http://pollingreport.com/science.htm#Evolution
NBC News Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Bill McInturff (R). March 8-10, 2005. N=800 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.5. "Which do you think is more likely to actually be the explanation for the origin of human life on Earth: evolution or the biblical account of creation?" Asked of those who answered "Biblical account": "And by this do you mean that God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh as described in the Book of Genesis, or that God was a divine presence in the formation of the universe?" % Evolution 33% Biblical account 57 Created in six days 44 Divine presence 13 None of the above 3 Unsure 7 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DaveScot
October 11, 2005
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I'm a creationist in the sense, that, I believe in a creator. Although I believe in an old earth, I wouldn't say a sympathetic to the OEC. I am by far not sympathetic to the YEC. This, of course, is not meant to be taken offensively. We're all christians with different view points. I think humility is the only true factor in this quest.Benjii
October 11, 2005
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Dr. Dembski: I think the problem is that they are coming at it from different angles, and not seeing that other angles can be correct and valid. It's like having a Christian Heavy Metal Band vs being a Christian in a Heavy Metal Band. In the former, the entire work is dedicated towards serving Christ. In the latter, it is the effect of Christ in the secular position. We can all be Christians in what we do, and some are called to explicit Christian witness as a profession. ID is the former, and Creationism is the latter. The problem is that AiG and similar organizations want everyone to be in the latter field. I love AiG, ICR, CRS, and the rest, but I think they don't understand that not everyone is called to make the same arguments that they are. What I personally love about ID is that it's so obvious that noone can argue against it without looking like a moron. It shows the obviousness of secularism as a religion. But getting back to my original point, ID is not the in-depth study of origins. If it were, then AiG might be right about ID. ID is simply a research program on how intelligent action influences the physical world. I know you are not a creationist of any sort, but even if you were, you're failure to speak on the topic wouldn't matter because, quite simply, that isn't even the topic being discussed! The difference is that ID is really a _different topic_ than origins. It _affects_ the origins debate, but is not equivalent to it. As a creationist, I love ID, because it allows me to talk about a topic that is really easy to win. Age of the earth? It's a win, but there's a lot of road to dig through. Independent creation of baramins? Again, there's a lot to discuss. But ID? That's a no-brainer, and those arguing against intelligent action are simply arguing against the validity of their own arguments.johnnyb
October 11, 2005
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I too am a YEC but even a cursory glance at ID informs me that their programme is to critique methadological naturalism and 'follow the evidence where it leads' this is completely consistent with a YEC worldview and I applaud their efforts. I suspect that Ken Ham and co. don't share the same enthusiasm because the success of ID is taking the lime light away from them and perhaps seeing their supporter base eaten away.petro
October 11, 2005
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As an ex-darwinite who has gone younger earthing strictly on evidence, the real opponent is unscientific dogmatists. That does not include most "creationists."mmadigan
October 11, 2005
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Tell that to people who have never seen a fork. You are using the common definition which is contexualized by culture. That is why I said literal interpretations are contextual. Take the context out of it and 'fork' can be literally interpreted either way. Am I wrong? Maybe....Lurker
October 11, 2005
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I am doing some research for a local, televised debate about intelligent design. One of the claims that I am pretty sure the anti-ID side will make is that the ID movement is just a bunch of evangelical Christians trying to push there religion down the ignorant public’s throat. I just read in this blog posting that the ID movement includes “Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, New Agers, and non-dogmatic agnostics.” I was wondering if you might be able to forward me some names of some ID scientists (maybe 5 or 6) who are not evangelical Christians along with their religious viewpoint and where they teach. I don't know if that would be appropriate or not, but it sure would help if we were able to produce that kind of data for the debate.shoekell
October 11, 2005
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Lurker, If you ask people on the street what a "fork" is (without giving any conditional background info), 90% would probably say an "eating utensil," so that may not be a good analogy.anteater
October 11, 2005
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Yes, "literal" does often depend on context. Consider: "In my great-grandfather's day, it took three days to travel to the next nearest town, given the necessity of traveling only during the day and stopping for the night." Three different meanings for the word "day"--each of them arguably a "literal" meaning. Yet would anyone read the sentence and wonder how long it actually took to make the stated journey, assuming the sentence to be true?intp147
October 11, 2005
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This whole argument over 'literal interpretation' is exhausting for me. 'Literal' seems to always involve context, I don't see how you can get around it. The phrase "A fork in the road" is not talking about a literal eating utensil in the road - unless the context of the converstation forces it to mean that. When I ask you to define "fork" without any context given then the eating utensil and the diverging road are EQUALLY literal.Lurker
October 11, 2005
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BTW, I seem to get the feeling that OECs at RTB are more resistant to ID than YECs.anteater
October 11, 2005
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"On the other hand, YECers are probably less than 20% of all ID supporters and probably less than 10% when it comes to credentials so it’s not such a hard choice (a lose-win situation)" The commenters on this thread can be an experiment (a microcosm) of who supports ID. Of course, the sample size on this blog is small, so it is an unreliable metric. On this thread, there is about 40% support for YECism. Just a first order approximation...anteater
October 11, 2005
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First of all, I do not understand your definition of creationism. I appreciate that you gave one; PT never gives one—they just use it as a pejorative—but I do not understand the one you gave. Just speaking for myself as a Christian, a believer in an inerrant bible, and a cosmological IDer, I wouldn't claim "the Bible, and Genesis in particular, guarantees the truth of certain scientific models" but rather: I fully expect that science is compatible with the bible. I also disagree with your statement "The age question is irrelevant to ID." That is certainly not true for cosmological ID. Cosmological ID makes no sense whatsoever in a young universe. There is nothing awesome about the fine tuning behind stellar evolution if, in fact, no star has ever actually had time to reach the super nova stage. For a YEC, the fine tuning of the universe would, in my opinion, be an unwelcome embarrassment. It would be much better for the YEC view if astrophysics stated "we have no clue how stars work." That, I think, is at the heart of the matter. I'm just speculating, but my guess is that RTB is separating itself from ID because ID generally means biological ID, and biological ID generally welcomes YECers into the fold—while the YEC view is incompatible with cosmological ID. Ross is not so much distancing himself from ID as is distancing himself from young earth creationism—which is intimately connected with (biological) ID.David Heddle
October 11, 2005
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"he ID community seem to go out of their way to point out that they have NOTHING to do with those hick YECs" There's a mad dash to the center for therein lies political victory. Guilt by association is unfair but it's naive to pretend it doesn't matter. IDists trying dissociate themselves from YECers is a reasonable response given the prevailing legal environment. Darwinists trying to dissociate themselves from strong atheists is a reasonable response given the prevailing cultural environment. Unfortunately for the Darwinists, strong atheists compose probably half their number, and in the upper echelons such as the Academy it's over 70% of their number. There's strength in numbers and strength in credentials so this is a difficult choice for them to make (a lose-lose situation). On the other hand, YECers are probably less than 20% of all ID supporters and probably less than 10% when it comes to credentials so it's not such a hard choice (a lose-win situation). Just guessing about the percentages except for % of Academy atheists which is scientific poll data.DaveScot
October 11, 2005
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It is only logical that, as a complete working model, ID is limited. In other words, as someone has said previously, religious inferences will be made from the quest of origins. Dawkins does that (it made him a "fullfilled atheist"), so no one can criticize YECers for doing it. Let's assume (as IDers defend) that things on this realm show the clear evidence of Inteligence at work. Now what? Where do we go from here? I know that people will say "but ID is only science". Sure. But now what? Even if the scientifical comunity stablishes that Inteligent Design is the only scientifical theory in agreement with the evidence, the next step will be "Who is the Designer?". What YECers say is that they not only know that things are designed (based on evidence and Revelation), but they know WHO is the Designer (The Lord Jesus Christ). Ok. So perhaps ID theorists will say "we leave the identity of the Designer to churches". For this I ask "Why?" You may say "we are only interested in science". Sure, but you leave out the most important part of the model: the Source for the Design. I understand that with the "Creationist" tag hanging over ID theorists' head, most prefer not to make religious conclusions from their work. That is their problem. YECers are not bound by those "political correct" chains.Mats
October 11, 2005
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I am a YEC and I see no contradiction between YEC and ID. I think it is unfortunate that many in the ID community seek to distance themselves from YEC. http://bevets.com/evolutionlinks.htm [My point was exactly the opposite, namely, that creationists of either stripe (young-earth or old-earth) are distancing themselves from ID. –WmAD] I should have been more clear. YECs may not be excited about ID but they would not disagree. OTOH Many (You have been an exception) in the ID community seem to go out of their way to point out that they have NOTHING to do with those hick YECs.bevets
October 11, 2005
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