Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Darwinian Debating Device #3: Moving Goalposts

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One of the Darwinists’ favorite tricks is known as “moving the goalpost.” The essence of this trick is deflecting away from having been defeated in a debate by pretending the debate was about something else. Thus, if the ID proponent meets a Darwinist’s challenge with respect to issue X, the Darwinist will pretend the issue was something else and say “Ah hah, you utterly failed to address issue Y,” thereby deflecting from the fact that the Darwinist has just lost with respect to issue X.

In the following example, a Darwinist insisted that “survival of the fittest” was not central to Darwinian theory. The ID proponent cited a prominent Darwinist (Stephen Jay Gould) for the proposition that “survival of the fittest” is indeed central to Darwinian theory. Instead of admitting his error, the Darwinist moved the goalpost by pretending that the issue the ID proponent was addressing with the Gould quotation was whether that phrase is a tautology:

Darwinist:

Well, it’s staggering to me that anyone could spend years arguing about evolution and end up thinking “Survival of the fittest” was a central idea in “Darwinism”, rather than a slightly silly slogan.

ID Proponent:

So, dear readers, we have [Darwinist] denying that “survival of the fittest” is a central idea in Darwinism. Interesting, because Stephen Jay Gould, one of the leading proponents of evolutionary theory in the last 50 years says this:

Natural selection is the central concept of Darwinian theory – the fittest survive and spread their favored traits through populations. Natural selection is defined by Spencer’s phrase, “survival of the fittest” . . .”

Whom shall we believe about whether “survival of the fittest” is a central concept in Darwinian theory? And here’s another interesting question. Why would Darwinist think he could get away with such an egregious falsehood?

At this point the Darwinist is well and truly stuck. He got caught in a falsehood. Of course, the honorable thing to do would be to admit his error and apologize. Does he do the honorable thing? Of course not. Being a Darwinist means never having to say you are sorry. The story continues:

Darwinist:

[ID proponent], I’ll credit you that this little trip to the quote mine was sloppy, rather than a deliberate misrepresentation.

In case it’s not now abundantly clear: if “fittest” means “those that survive” then “survival of the fittest” is not the core idea in Darwinism. For that phrase to adequately describe evolutionary biology “fittest” must mean something else. Most importantly, the theory of natural selection let’s us do science, test ideas svc develop new models (and has been very successful at that ).

Really, the only interfering question that remains is how [ID proponent] can be so ignorant of evolutionary biology, but so sure he is right.

Notice how the Darwinist moved the goalpost. The specific issue under discussion was whether the phrase “survival of the fittest” is a central tenant of Darwinian theory. Darwinist says it is not, that it is just a “silly slogan.” ID proponent crushes that assertion by quoting one of the most prominent Darwinists in the last 75 years saying that the phrase is another way of saying “natural selection,” and that natural selection is a “central concept of Darwinian theory.”

Game over. ID proponent has won the debate.

Goal post moving: Instead of admitting his error, Darwinist retorts that a tautological conception of “survival of the fittest” is not the core idea of Darwinism and implies that a non-tautological scientifically testable conception of the phrase is indeed part of the theory.

Set aside whether the phrase “survival of the fittest” is tautological. That is a discussion we are happy to have, but it was not the issue being debated at this moment. The issue under debate [issue “X”] was Darwinist’s assertion that the phrase “survival of the fittest” is “a slightly silly slogan” instead of a central idea in Darwinian theory. When Darwinist’s falsehood is exposed, instead of admitting his error, he changes the subject and pretends the issue [issue “Y”] was whether a tautological conception of natural selection is part of the theory. The Darwinist adds insult to his deceit by calling the ID proponent “ignorant of evolutionary biology.”

Note that it makes no difference whether this sub-discussion over issue X occurred in the context of a larger discussion about whether natural selection is tautological (issue Y). The specific issue under debate was issue X, whether the phrase “survival of the fittest” was part of Darwinian theory.

Darwinist’s behavior in this example is, of course, equal parts shameful, deceitful and pathetic. Sadly, similar antics from Darwinists are seen all too often in these pages.

Comments
That definition is very nearly the same as the one give above. The rest is, again, completely opaque. If you want to address my comment 54, please have a go.wd400
October 13, 2014
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wd400, Sorry, this was way over your head. You might want to look up fitness in Wikipedia:
Fitness (often denoted w in population genetics models) is a central idea in evolutionary theory. It can be defined either with respect to a genotype or to a phenotype in a given environment. In either case, it describes the ability to both survive and reproduce, and is equal to the average contribution to the gene pool of the next generation that is made by an average individual of the specified genotype or phenotype. The term "Darwinian fitness" is often used to make clear the distinction with physical fitness.
You might also want to consider the effect of genome variability on the survival of a species. -QQuerius
October 12, 2014
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Mung, You go out an measure it, over several generations. Q, What? I really no idea what you are on about. I have described what the actual concept of fitness about is above, if you have a problem with that I guess let me know.wd400
October 12, 2014
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wd400, Generations of students have been taught about "the survival of the fittest." Any students who were skeptical were beaten down---after all, this was scientific orthodoxy, the consensus, settled science. Fact. As you've noted---and I agree---there are issues with this articulation of the principle of the interaction of a genome with a variable environment. As I understand it, incremental changes in the genome typically provide only about a 3% advantage. Personally, I think it makes more sense to say that significantly disadvantaged organisms must either adapt, migrate, or die. Some adaptive advantage (or removal of a disadvantage) is required for the frequency of a new allele to increase. Even then, genetic changes are be more likely to disappear than to persist when in the minority. The other mechanism is how new alleles are introduced, whether by radiometric destruction, transcription errors, transduction, or some other mechanism. My point is that both of these mechanisms must be present for Darwinistic evolution to occur. There might even be a third mechanism that somehow applies or utilizes new genetic information. This is why I'm skeptical of your claim that "survival of the fittest" or some more accurate representation of that mechanism is not one of the irreducible features of Darwinism . . . unless you had something else in mind. Care to explain? -QQuerius
October 12, 2014
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wd400:
Fitness is defined as the reproductive sucesss of a genotype or phenotype.
The actual reproductive excess or the expected reproductive success? You've just presented two very different definitions of fitness. One is predictive and the the other is after the fact.Mung
October 12, 2014
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wd400:
Fitness is a measurable property of genotypes and phenotypes. There is no tautology in saying “the fitness of a genotype is that expected contribution of that genotype to the next generation”.
Can you please explain how it is possible to measure the expected contribution of a genotype to the next (future) generation?Mung
October 12, 2014
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In my observation, one of the evolutionist's favorite things to do is pretend they corrected you on something by behaving in an extreme nit-picky and often self-contradictory fashion. It's like how sometimes you'll even be criticized for using the term "natural selection" because of its anthropomorphizing quality... even though the phrase is obviously replete throughout evolutionary literature. Just more silly games evolutionists play to fill the void created by their lack of real arguments and evidence. What else are they going to fill up paragraphs with?lifepsy
October 12, 2014
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Mung #48
– Walter James ReMine
From that and other quotes he seems like a very insightful author.Silver Asiatic
October 11, 2014
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I’m guessing this is what wd400 has in mind in his defense of the scientific utility of the fitness concept. No Mung. What I mean is what I have said repeatedly. Fitness is a measurable property of genotypes and phenotypes. There is no tautology in saying "the fitness of a genotype is that expected contribution of that genotype to the next generation". What's more, that concept of fitness has been immensely powerful in science, proving it's far from an empty concept. On the other hand, if we take the phrase "survival of the fittest" and drop in the biological meaning of "fitness", it does amount (more or less) to a tautology. When someone (who knows anything about evolution) claims "survival of the fittest" is core to evolutionary biology, they obviously aren't using above definition of fitness, and instead meaning something like "best suited to their environment". That's precisely the argument Gould and other quote-mined authors were making. So we are left, all these threads and all this noise later, with no serious argument about the way fitness is used in bioloy, and a whole bunch of quibbling, toy-throwing and fantasy. On the off chance some one wants to move on from this, I'll repeat the most important point: Fitness is defined as the reproductive sucesss of a genotype or phenotype. In many cases, it's only possible to measure the fitness of a genotype of phenotype but actually letting evolution happen and keeping track of the relative sucess of genotypes and phenotypes. I see no reason why this should be construed as a problem for evolutionary biology. Indeed, the linked concepts of fitness and natural selection are at the core of what is a very profitable scientific paradigm, that has created findings that are of importance to medicine, genomics, conservation, ecology and the wider field of evolutionary biology. If anyone has a serious objection to this claim, I'd like to hear it.wd400
October 11, 2014
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The idea of the survival of the fittest is of course a tautology and it could be in caricature imagined in this way: A discussion in A.D. 1400: Why are swans white? I don’t know, but the Creator in His wisdom certainly knew why He made them white. The same discussion after 1859: Why are swans white? Swans are white because this color came out on top in the selection process. Why this happened, I don’t know, but because the swan has this color, it must have had some selective value (from the above the unstoppable progress of science is apparent, as well as the quick end to various forms of obscurantism). Stanislav Komárek, "Mimicry, Aposematism, and related Phenomena"
Jon Garvey
October 11, 2014
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In a discussion with a militant atheist this week, I posed the simple question. Do chemicals reactions concern themselves with truth or do they obey the laws of nature?" His answer; "Of course chemicals concern themselves with truth, the more complex the reactions become the more they can search for truth, we are testimony of that." WTH??????Andre
October 11, 2014
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Mung "The truly skillful Darwinist leaves the goalposts where they are and moves the entire playing field!" I always figured that is what the invention of multi-universes was about. Keep the goal post where it is, but play the game from a parallel universe where you control the rulesDavidD
October 11, 2014
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As he steps into the arena, the crowd roars thunderously. He is dressed in a tight-fitting black outfit intricately embroidered with bright gold thread that twinkles under the burning sun. He is Darwin's matador. The powerful bull charges into one end of the arena, but Darwin's matador is unconcerned. He is prepared. He is ready. He is focused. As the bull comes near, Darwin's matador catches the bull's attention with a bright red cape and shakes it, taunting the bull: DM: “Survival of the fittest is not central to Darwinian theory.” The bull charges. The Darwin's matador knows he has several moves depending on what the bull does next. B: Darwin wrote about the survival of the fittest. It was central to him! See here, I have a quote . . . DM: We're talking modern science here, past even neo-darwinism. Crowd: Ole'! B: If an organism doesn't survive it doesn't reproduce. DM: Exactly. We are talking about reproduction, not survival. Crowd: Ole' B: “Fittest” is a tautology. DM: Exactly. Fittest can change as the environment changes. Crowd: Ole' DM: Makes deprecatory comments—skillfully placing two barbed banderillas in the bull's shoulders. Crowd: Ole' B: But how do any new genes fare? DM: They become part of the extensive gene pool of the organism, where it's included in the genetic drift. Crowd: Ole' B: But how do brand new genes, not to mention body plans, originate? DW: Well we don't know all the details yet, but it musta happened because we're here! B: Because “we're here” is not exclusive. Darwin's matador feels an exploding pain as one of the bull's horns sinks deeply into the matador's delicate groin, and the bull violently lofts him into the air . . . repeatedly, and then trampling and goring him. As he is carried off from the arena, Darwin's matador shouts repeatedly that "we won," "we won!" -QQuerius
October 10, 2014
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A way out of the tautology objection is with a special definition. A special definition is when a theory (or keyword) is specially defined for each case. Special definitions are made by redefining fitness for each given case, resulting in a special definition of fitness. ...A theory cannot be tested when redefined for every case. – Walter James ReMine
I'm guessing this is what wd400 has in mind in his defense of the scientific utility of the fitness concept.Mung
October 10, 2014
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Tautological fitness is when fitness is defined as survival, thereby making natural selection a tautology. Tautological fitness is measurable, in a sense, since survival can be measured. Theorists are often using tautological fitness when they say fitness is measurable. In summary, when natural selection is a tautology, it is not science because it is neither explanatory not testable. Nonetheless, it can mislead us in three ways: 1) It masquerades as an explanation when it is not. 2) It is 'always true' (by definition) and thereby captures our confidence. 3) Tautological fitness is observable and measurable, therefore it seems like empirical science. - Walter James ReMine
Mung
October 10, 2014
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Entirely too many threads now attempting to cover the same topic. =p that said,
Natural selection is merely the replacement of the less able by the more able. Able at what? At survival and reproduction. - Douglas Futuyma
Mung
October 10, 2014
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Yes it is a serious question - Is evolution mindless / vacuous? "Let's not waste time in pointless philoshophical debates about precisely what it means by selection" or say "fitness".Heartlander
October 10, 2014
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Barry, It is admirable what you are trying to do... Thank you for that.... Unfortunately, I'm afraid I don't have your patience... :-( Since some boys down on sandwalk.blog.ca "accuse" me of being YOU, I thought I would give you a word of advice... I also thought that it was a complement to me that some people thought you were hiding under my nickname... It tells me that when logically thinking people argue some issues, logical arguments just come out naturally with out any kind of script...I think...Quest
October 10, 2014
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Q @ 42. Masterful. You have gift for metaphor.Barry Arrington
October 10, 2014
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Is this a serious question Heartlander? The concept of "force" is as mindless as that of "fitness", but not many people would say "force" was an empty concept that didn't help scientists do science.wd400
October 10, 2014
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My theory as to why logic doesn't seem to gain traction in an argument with many (not all) Darwinists is that they seem to believe that their opinion constitutes irrefutable proof, needing no other support. Similarly, their simple denial of any logical conclusion or observed evidence constitutes definitive refutation. This is traditionally followed by the ritual immolation of the opponent by ad hominem, and then the victory speech. But there's another problem, Barry. You're using the wrong sports metaphor, football. They don't get football. Instead, they see themselves as a graceful torero, a matador in a bullfight. What you see as their moving the goalposts or questioning a definition is simply a deft sweep of their cape as they sidestep the charging bull. It's a work of art not of logic. Then, what you see as a troll, is actually to them a banderillero, the performer who plants the barbed sticks in the bull's shoulder. Sometimes though, one of the bull's horns manages to snag the carefully woven philosophical fabric of the torero's traje de luces, their appropriately named "suit of lights." The slight tear and drop of blood is immediately obscured by the other toreros who rush in and distract the bull with non sequiturs and irrelevant side issues. However, what actually is happening in the ring is in grotesque contrast to their imaginations. While it's too graphic to describe medically, the bull works in three acts: the wounding of the torero, the insertion of the emasculating horn, and the final trampling and goring. Regardless of the actual outcome, the torero always claims victory in a demonstration of undaunted bravado! -QQuerius
October 10, 2014
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Is evolution mindless? - because "far from being an empty concept, [it] has allowed us to do science".Heartlander
October 10, 2014
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Hearlander,
BTW, to state a society that can drink milk – will be a society that can drink milk, is – tautology…
Yes. Thankfully I didn't say this. You'd have to ask Barry what he meant by vacuous in the earlier posts, but I very much doubt he meant "mindless" in the sense that evolution is mindless.wd400
October 10, 2014
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There was no "quote-mine." Response hereMung
October 10, 2014
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as to wd400's comment here,,,
how science actually uses the concetps of fitness and selection,,,
And to reiterate once again, (and as many times as need be so as to expose wd400), Darwinism, or any materialistic theory of origins that has randomness as a base postulate, is not a rigid science in any proper sense but is/are more realistically thought of as a pseudo-science(s) The main reason why Darwinian evolution is more properly thought of as a pseudo-science instead of a proper science is because Darwinian evolution has no rigid mathematical basis, like other overarching physical theories of science do. A rigid mathematical basis in order to potentially falsify it,,,
“On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” - Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/quote-of-the-day-8/ Nobel Prize-Winning Physicist Wolfgang Pauli on the Empirical Problems with Neo-Darwinism – Casey Luskin – February 27, 2012 Excerpt: While they (Darwinian Biologists) pretend to stay in this way completely ‘scientific’ and ‘rational,’ they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word ‘chance’, not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word ‘miracle.’” Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/02/nobel_prize-win056771.html “It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.” Murray Eden, “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, June 1967, p. 109. WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Evolution is True - Roger Highfield - January 2014 Excerpt:,,, Whatever the case, those universal truths—'laws'—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology. Little seems to have changed from a decade ago when the late and great John Maynard Smith wrote a chapter on evolutionary game theory for a book on the most powerful equations of science: his contribution did not include a single equation. http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25468
In fact, in so far as math can be applied to Darwinian claims, mathematics constantly shows us that Darwinian evolution is astronomically unlikely),,
Active Information in Metabiology – Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Robert J. Marks II – 2013 Except page 9: Chaitin states [3], “For many years I have thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have proof that Darwinian evolution works.” In fact, mathematics has consistently demonstrated that undirected Darwinian evolution does not work. http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2013.4/BIO-C.2013.4 HISTORY OF EVOLUTIONARY THEORY – WISTAR DESTROYS EVOLUTION Excerpt: A number of mathematicians, familiar with the biological problems, spoke at that 1966 Wistar Institute,, For example, Murray Eden showed that it would be impossible for even a single ordered pair of genes to be produced by DNA mutations in the bacteria, E. coli,—with 5 billion years in which to produce it! His estimate was based on 5 trillion tons of the bacteria covering the planet to a depth of nearly an inch during that 5 billion years. He then explained that,, E. coli contain(s) over a trillion (10^12) bits of data. That is the number 10 followed by 12 zeros. *Eden then showed the mathematical impossibility of protein forming by chance. http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/20hist12.htm Darwin's Doubt - Chapter 12 - Complex Adaptations and the Neo-Darwinian Math - Dr. Paul Giem - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFY7oKc34qs&list=SPHDSWJBW3DNUaMy2xdaup5ROw3u0_mK8t&index=7 See also Mendel's Accountant and Haldane's Ratchet: John Sanford
As to empirical evidence, the only thing that I have ever seen evidence for virtually unlimited plasticity in is not in any living organism, as is postulated in Darwinism, but is in the theory of evolution itself as it forever morphs into new shapes to try to 'explain away' whatever contrary evidence comes along,,
“Being an evolutionist means there is no bad news. If new species appear abruptly in the fossil record, that just means evolution operates in spurts. If species then persist for eons with little modification, that just means evolution takes long breaks. If clever mechanisms are discovered in biology, that just means evolution is smarter than we imagined. If strikingly similar designs are found in distant species, that just means evolution repeats itself. If significant differences are found in allied species, that just means evolution sometimes introduces new designs rapidly. If no likely mechanism can be found for the large-scale change evolution requires, that just means evolution is mysterious. If adaptation responds to environmental signals, that just means evolution has more foresight than was thought. If major predictions of evolution are found to be false, that just means evolution is more complex than we thought.” ~ Cornelius Hunter
bornagain77
October 10, 2014
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'Fitness and selection' in nature is not 'vacuous'?
vac·u·ous / ?vaky?w?s/ • adj. having or showing a lack of thought or intelligence; mindless
Is evolution mindless?
[Darwin's] alternative to intelligent design was design by the completely mindless process of natural selection, according to which organisms possessing variations that enhance survival or reproduction replace those less suitably endowed, which therefore survive or reproduce in lesser degree. This process cannot have a goal, any more than erosion has the goal of forming canyons, for the future cannot cause material events in the present. Thus the concepts of goals or purposes have no place in biology (or any other of the natural sciences), except in studies of human behavior. Evolution, by Douglas J. Futuyma (p. 282)
BTW, to state a society that can drink milk - will be a society that can drink milk, is - tautology...Heartlander
October 10, 2014
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I am truly ashamed to say that I was a Darwinist for the first 41 years of my life, but thankfully ,after being exposed to thinkers like Stephen Meyer who caused me to have an honest second look at Darwinian evolution , I could no longer hold to it as intellectually tenable.wallstreeter43
October 10, 2014
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'Fitness and selection' in nature is not 'vacuous'?
vac·u·ous / ?vaky?w?s/ • adj. having or showing a lack of thought or intelligence; mindless
Is evolution mindless?
[Darwin's] alternative to intelligent design was design by the completely mindless process of natural selection, according to which organisms possessing variations that enhance survival or reproduction replace those less suitably endowed, which therefore survive or reproduce in lesser degree. This process cannot have a goal, any more than erosion has the goal of forming canyons, for the future cannot cause material events in the present. Thus the concepts of goals or purposes have no place in biology (or any other of the natural sciences), except in studies of human behavior. Evolution, by Douglas J. Futuyma (p. 282)
BTW, to state a society that can drink milk - will be a society that can drink milk, is - tautology...Heartlander
October 10, 2014
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The truly skillful Darwinist leaves the goalposts where they are and moves the entire playing field!Mung
October 10, 2014
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Quest:
Barry, you are being very naive . . .
Perhaps Quest. I prefer to believe that I have allowed hope to triumph over experience.Barry Arrington
October 10, 2014
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