Doctor Ivette Lozano from Dallas, Texas on treating patients with HCQ Cocktails

_{kairosfocus

May 18, 2020

Defending our Civilization, Medicine, News Highlights, rhetoric, Sci-Tech watch}

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https://youtu.be/coyfWpwxedQ

Food for thought.

U/D: When it reaches the pharmacy . . .

U/D May 19, another Lozano interview:

And, oh yes, breaking 1: Mr Trump is praising — yes, I am NOT using, “touting” — a promising vaccination. Announcement by the firm, here.

Breaking, no 2, courtesy Daily Mail as usual:

Of course, the now standard, it’s risky is in the subheads.

U/D: Video:

Compare our Texas Doctor’s remarks. And then, there is the latest from Dr Raoult:

Whose report do you believe, why? END

Comments

Dr Zelenko speaks out again https://uncommondescent.com/medicine/dr-zelenko-on-israel-national-news-may-21-2020-forthcoming-paper-two-weeks/kairosfocus_{May 27, 2020
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Jerry, I think we are seeing impacts of how a paradigm or plausibility structure lock schools of thought into an overton window that locks out what would be obvious to an outsider. Hence Dr Zelenko saying but isn't it standard to treat a disease as early as possible, so why the strange difference here? He makes a comparison to how a fire can flash over into a much more dangerous stage and notes how much easier it is to hit it while it is small. He identifies that by the time people are at a Doctor's office they are likely to be about day 5 in the disease process, on the verge of an explosion in viral load with attendant damage. He estimates turnaround time at about 3 days on tests, thus if you wait you likely have had serious damage due to explosion in viral load with attendant cell destruction to produce those viruses; linked doubtless, is immune respone which can spin out of control in a potentially fatal cytokine storm. He points to manageable toxicity and safety then suggests, go on the drug cocktail, then pull back if there is no need. In short, he is prioritising cost effectiveness of clinical diagnosis. KFkairosfocus_{May 27, 2020
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But what you actually wrote was nonsense to anyone but a mind-reader
More nonsense. I have made probably a couple hundred comments on C19 since late March when I found out about Zelenko and his approach. All have been consistent arguing for early intervention and nearly no opinion on what works after hospitalization. One has to be obtuse to not know what I have been advocating. Or not reading my comments or the links I posted. If the latter then one should refrain from criticizing what I write. A large percentage of my comments refer to a treatment for C19 advocating zinc and that HCQ is effective as an ionophore. But for early usage. Maybe I talked about HCQ as a possibility for late stage treatment but if I did it wasn’t emphasized. Since I am not a major advocate of HCQ by itself as the way to treat the virus. I constantly advocate for zinc. But I have pointed to other treatments that have promise. Because I believe the way out of this mess is effective early treatment. Eventually most will have to get the virus to effect immunity. Shutdowns, social distancing and masks are possibly just postponIng the inevitable. However, while not a major advocate of HCQ by itself, I find it interesting that numerous countries are using HCQ with success. I also find the criticisms of Raoult specious. And most of the countries that aren’t Using HCQ are having problems. Three good examples are France, UK and United States.jerry_{May 27, 2020
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Was the Lancet study cooked? The most interesting part of the study implies giving HCQ exacerbates the effect of the virus not by causing cardiac problems but by causing oxygen and breathing problems. There ie a very high correlation between ventilator usage and HCQ. This could happen in a couple ways. HCQ causes the virus to become more virulent necessitating ventilation. Or those requiring ventilation who are much more serious were more likely to receive HCQ as a last resort. This happened to my friend. I bet he is in study. He was early March in New York area. Maybe others. But I bet the later hypothesis has merit. I know that supposedly HCQ was administered early where it was administered (Just over 11% of patients got it) but unless each patient is examined to see the progression and prognosis at administration we will not know. Why do NYU study and Lancet study differ so much? Quercetin Is also thought to possibly be an ionophore. There is a study on it going on right now at Magill and possible effect on C19.jerry_{May 27, 2020
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F/N: Quercetin is an anti oxidant, anti-inflammatory flavenoid commonly found in fruit, vegetables etc, which in part acts to help mop up free radicals https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/quercetin#what-it-is KFkairosfocus_{May 27, 2020
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BO'H, you have a point, though it is clear Jerry has been emphasising intervention early in the U, to avert need for hospitalisation to address the seriously damaged body at increased risk of death. I add, it is plausible that fairly strong drugs will have differing toxicity impacts at different stages of the descending arm of the process. Where, I repeat from the old prof in my uni: Pharmacology is the study of poisons in small doses. In this case, I suspect the disease damaged body has steadily decreasing LD50 as damage accumulates. That means the window of effectiveness between dosage/kg and LD50 is steadily narrowing, raising further questions of retention period/persistence in the body. BTW, drunkenness is an early toxic effect as is getting high on many drugs. I have already noted on the fat soluble nature of THC in marijuana and the implications of steady use. Certain anesthetics depend on that solubility to affect myelin sheaths of nerves but can have retentions on the scale of decades, giving a sort of flashback episode effect. LSD seems to be of similar character, based on its notorious flashback effects. The point is, toxicity is a complex challenge hence part of why physician management based on background knowledge and specifics of the patient . . . as opposed to attempted micromanagement by bureaucrats and politicians who do not, cannot, understand unintended consequences and the level of complexity of a society and economy . . . is key. KFkairosfocus_{May 27, 2020
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EG, I am saying that "tests" is not to be conflated with then -- per gold standard fallacy" -- reduced to laboratory tests. I am further saying, that all the tests: of reporting and record [reduced to files], of observation in the Office and/or on an examining table, through sampling and testing by instruments or by lab work, fall under the same inductive logic of inferring based on signs. (BTW, post C S Peirce, we can extend this to responding to text etc.) In the context of CV19, records and reports on medical history identify vulnerable groups, a cluster of reported symptoms and observed signs allows clinical differential diagnosis on a systematic procedure all physicians are taught, this being amplified by the context of pandemic. Further to such, as Raoult, Zelenko, Lozano et al demonstrate with up to 90+% reduction of case fatalities . . . see OP . . . prompt treatment high up the U with a by now known effective and low cost cocktail is a reasonable intervention, even as tests are done using swabs etc. The root of this being that the virally influenced body, through the clash of disease process and immune system, will exhibit clusters of signs manifesting the process at work. However, predictably, objectors to design inferences on adequate signs will struggle far more widely with other such inductive inferences that do not fit the current progressivist narrative. KFkairosfocus_{May 27, 2020
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Jerry @ 270 - if you weren't including more serious patients when you made that comment, you should have said. But what you actually wrote was nonsense to anyone but a mind-reader.Bob O'H_{May 27, 2020
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Acartia Eddie:
How does Joe explain them to his wife (sister, mother, aunt)?
I explain [SNIP -- return shot]ET_{May 26, 2020
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You can treat the flu and covid-19 with the following kit: Emergen-C- Take 1-2 per day. If symptoms arise take 2 @ a time twice a day Cell Power- As directed. Increase if symptoms occur Vitamin D3- take up to 5000 IU’s/ day- this needs to be started months ago so get on it. D is fat soluble. Quercetin- As directed ZMA- As directed Zinc Sulfate- Use to increase total zinc to 90 MG/ day if symptoms arise That’s the basics.
Thanks...
You are welcome, Acartia. My family knows of its effectiveness with respect to the flu. The science supports it with respect to covid-19. Just because you are too stupid to think for yourself doesn't mean the rest of us have to be so handicapped. My kit will save lives. And I am more than OK with that.ET_{May 26, 2020
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Jerry
abstinence
I agree. [SNIP -- needless personal attack of slanderous character.]Ed George_{May 26, 2020
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What do you prescribe for Genital warts?
abstinencejerry_{May 26, 2020
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ET
You can treat the flu and covid-19 with the following kit:
Thanks Dr. Joe. What do you prescribe for Genital warts?Ed George_{May 26, 2020
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You can treat the flu and covid-19 with the following kit: Emergen-C- Take 1-2 per day. If symptoms arise take 2 @ a time twice a day Cell Power- As directed. Increase if symptoms occur Vitamin D3- take up to 5000 IU's/ day- this needs to be started months ago so get on it. D is fat soluble. Quercetin- As directed ZMA- As directed Zinc Sulfate- Use to increase total zinc to 90 MG/ day if symptoms arise That's the basics.ET_{May 26, 2020
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Are you seriously suggesting that doctors can diagnose, prescribe and effectively monitor this workload outside of hospitals?
No problem. There are just under a million doctors in the US. And about 180,000 nurse practitioners and physician assistants. While not all would be treating C19 patients there will be more than enough to test and treat everyone in the US. Remember most will not require treatment or even need to be tested. They would actually do it much more efficiently than hospitals. Hospitals would not be needed except for severe cases which should be few.jerry_{May 26, 2020
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It might actually be worse than that, Ed. In Aus and NZ they use a sentinal system for self-reporting flu-like symptoms (cough, running nose, fever etc) to get an early warning of local epidemics etc. As well as the amazing effect of lockdowns this year, it looks like ~2% of the population report these symptoms each week (admitedly during the sourthen cold and flu season) https://www.newcastle.edu.au/media/viewer?media=616557 2% symptomatic * 330 million people = about 6 million people to triage per week This is not a random sample, so there are possible biases etc, but gives you an idea of the prevalence of the mild symptoms.orthomyxo_{May 26, 2020
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KF, you keep saying that doctors can diagnose and treat COVID-19 without the need for extensive testing or hospitalization. Let’s do the math. Number of GPs in the US: <12,000 Number of confirmed COVID cases: 1,700,000. Number of COVID patients per GP: 141. OK. Doesn’t sound so bad. What disease initially presents itself similar to COVID? Number of reported flu incidents per year: -45,000,000 per year. Number of flu + COVID per year: 46,700,000. Number of flu + COVID per GP. 3,891. Are you seriously suggesting that doctors can diagnose, prescribe and effectively monitor this workload outside of hospitals?Ed George_{May 26, 2020
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This is just nonsense.
No your comment is nonsense. You are referring to late stage patients and I am referring to normal usage as a prophylactic and initial stages of the virus. Given that this study is inappropriate this study and the NYU study on HCQ and zinc show very different results.jerry_{May 26, 2020
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Jerry, the issue with diagnostic "tests" is that we are dealing with inductive inference on signs. When a doctor observes us coming into his office, watches our faces, sees how we breathe, the pupils of our eyes, those are already several signs. Tongue, throat, voice, pulse rate and strength, sound of the heart and many other things are signs that in context tell a story independent of reported symptoms. Here is the clincher: blood tests, ECG's etc are ALSO inferences on sign, so the issue is really the extent and types of tests, not the presence of tests.And of course determined objectors to the design inference are always going to have trouble with inferences on signs. KFkairosfocus_{May 26, 2020
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BO'H, the conflation of two very different points on the U leads to a serious error here. Given at the right time, high enough up on the U -- as Raoult's numbers and those of others show -- the cocktail reduces fatality rates by up to 90+ percent. Lower down the curve, with damage already there, it is plausible that such fairly serious drugs have a very different impact. We must not mistake beach death apples for crab apples. KFkairosfocus_{May 26, 2020
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Jerry -
The side effects are minimal for HCQ. No one has provided any extensive lethal side effects from using it for C19.
This is just nonsense. That's exactly what the paper in The Lancet did. There was a higher death rate in people treated with HCQ. It was quite literally extensive (over 6 continents, with thousands of patients), and lethal (more people died).Bob O'H_{May 26, 2020
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I guess since you didn’t answer my question, that means that there are no tests that can tell if a patient in the early stages of COVID-19 will progress to a more serious case or will recover.
No test exists and I doubt if such tests exists for most diseases. So I do not understand what the concern is. What the doctor can do is diagnose the patient clinically for the virus if an actually quick test is not available. There is usually a high correlation with successful diagnosis. As rapid tests become more available the need for clinical evaluations alone will not be as necessary. A doctor can often diagnose the severity of an illness by the intensity of certain symptoms such as temperature, redness of throat, severity of coughing, blood counts or indications of air blockages etc. Just remember what a doctor does when he examines a patient. He goes through a progression of tests to determine what is not normal. Zelenko divided his patients into high and low risk based on their chances of being affected severely by the virus. This was done by reported progressions with others. High risk patients were given the treatment. Low risk patients were observed because nearly all will defeat the virus with their immune system. This was delineated above and at other places several times. If symptoms progress for the low risk patients, then they are moved into high risk and given the treatment. You really should go to the links for Zelenko and listen. It will answer most of your questions. The side effects are minimal for HCQ. No one has provided any extensive lethal side effects from using it for C19. See the CDC handout for this drug for potential exposure to malaria for anyone. It is used as a prophylactic. My wife and I were given it before going to Africa 6 years ago. https://bit.ly/2LYTPdZ So your objections are specious. There is always the possibility of something going wrong with any treatment or drug (aspirin, ibuprofen and acetaminophen all come with warnings) but we have the other side with a high percentage of people dying from lack of treatment. There should be minimal concern. People seem to be grasping for anything negative when there is little there. My guess is that if Trump had not said anything about HCQ there would be thousands of news articles reporting his irresponsibility for not advancing a potential cure.jerry_{May 26, 2020
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BO'H: you are conflating diagnostic tests of observation and reporting with lab tests then excluding the former through the gold standard fallacy. Jerry and I have both pointed out your error. As far as testing those who have sufficient indications that it would be wise to do so, both he and I also pointed to such. KFkairosfocus_{May 26, 2020
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kf - if what I said was false, please quote the part of Jerry's post where he describes the diagnostic test for whether a patient will get worse or not.Bob O'H_{May 26, 2020
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BO'H: false, likely due to the gold standard fallacy used to dismiss otherwise competent evidence. Jerry did answer your question, based on 2400 years of medicine, that clinical diagnosis is a first filter that is effective in identifying at risk candidates for treatment and those for whom concerns on toxic effects would be significant, in early stages of the U. Confirmatory tests are just that.I add, note, there is no feasibility of testing the population every two weeks or the like, just from the logistics involved. In any case, in early stages, damage would be minimal, the drugs are under physician supervision and are cheap. So, an early intervention is likely to be successful in averting damage requiring hospitalisation even as the immune system mobilises to destroy the infection with low risk of breaking out of control into a cytokine storm. Actually, HCQ is an anti-inflammatory also. Take that with in vitro results, plausible mechanisms and case studies and we can see why there are reports of significant effectiveness. The notion that you kill more than you cure is empirically refuted by the Raoult study, as clipped above and which currently is even stronger. We must not compare crab apples to beach death apples. KFkairosfocus_{May 26, 2020
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Jerry @ 251 - I guess since you didn't answer my question, that means that there are no tests that can tell if a patient in the early stages of COVID-19 will progress to a more serious case or will recover. This is an important problem if you're advocating for using HCQ as a treatment in the early stages. We know there are side effects (from the long history of its use), and that it can be lethal (from the Lancet study, albeit that is in patients with a more severe disease progression). If you are going to give it to patients who will recover anyway, you might end up killing more people than you'll cure. This is especially problematic as you'd be treating a lot of people who wouldn't need it, so it would have to have a big effect on those who would need it if it's to be effective. Fortunately there is a trial to test this.Bob O'H_{May 26, 2020
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EG, an obviously politicised organisation, its announcements have to be carefully parsed and balanced. The evidence as we have tracked still stands on its own merits; once one is so far down the U that one is in hospital care, likely a lot of damage has already been done . . . likely to vulnerable people. The target zone for successful use of the cocktail is early in the course of the disease, preventing damage that leads to needing serious hospital based care; as Jerry has repeatedly pointed out. Where, vulnerable people with lung and likely cardiovascular system damage will plausibly, likely be less able to handle drug toxicity. Yet again, drugs are poisons in small doses. In short the situation is not simple. Also, you have yet to take back some intemperate remarks above i/l/o my step by step response in 199 above. I add, you need to also respond to Jerry's and my comments on relevant early stage patients i/l/o Zelenko et al, cf. 247 on. There are other points of unresponsiveness as well. KF PS: I add, there was some suggestion that other macrolides or doxycycline could be used in cocktails https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04370782 BTW, macrolide action of blocking the P site in ribosomes through a reversible bond would reduce protein synthesis, which would plausibly inhibit virus hijacking of the cellular machinery. I cannot find back a doctor's report on use of I think it was doxycycline in place of azithromycine.kairosfocus_{May 25, 2020
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WHO cancels HCQ testing over safety risks. https://apple.news/APzivcvQ-S72_wVjsw1oUcAEd George_{May 25, 2020
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Whatever RH7. ,, The virus is far less deadly than originally predicted. Frankly, I think someone needs to develop a vaccine for your, and the News media, fear mongering. For middle age. it is no worse than the seasonal flu. Youngsters are barely effected at all. The elderly and those with preconditions are the ones who have to be extra careful. Per Fox News at 5 pm today - Ed Henry interviewbornagain77_{May 25, 2020
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inflammation in tissues throughout the body increases with age, a fact that helps the coronavirus get into the body, bind to molecules in the nose and lungs, and wreak havoc, Janet Lord, director of the Institute of Inflammation and Ageing at the University of Birmingham in England, explained in a webinar this month. Fat tissue, for example, increases inflammation and renders overweight people more vulnerable to a COVID infection. Skeletal muscle helps the immune system,” Lord said. The contractions of skeletal muscles produce small proteins called myokines that, by dampening inflammation, have big health benefits. Myokines ferret out infections and keep inflammation from getting out of hand, she said. Also, exercising skeletal muscle helps diminish body fat and increases the potency of natural killer cells no matter what your age. An 85-year-old who increases muscle mass is better able to recover from COVID, she said. The more extensive or vigorous the exercise, the less inflammation, Lord said. She noted that those who do fewer than 3,000 steps a day have the highest level of inflammation, whereas those who do 10,000 or more steps daily have the least inflammation. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/well/live/to-fight-covid-19-dont-neglect-immunity-and-inflammation.htmlrhampton7_{May 25, 2020
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