Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Darwinian Debating Device #3: Moving Goalposts

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One of the Darwinists’ favorite tricks is known as “moving the goalpost.” The essence of this trick is deflecting away from having been defeated in a debate by pretending the debate was about something else. Thus, if the ID proponent meets a Darwinist’s challenge with respect to issue X, the Darwinist will pretend the issue was something else and say “Ah hah, you utterly failed to address issue Y,” thereby deflecting from the fact that the Darwinist has just lost with respect to issue X.

In the following example, a Darwinist insisted that “survival of the fittest” was not central to Darwinian theory. The ID proponent cited a prominent Darwinist (Stephen Jay Gould) for the proposition that “survival of the fittest” is indeed central to Darwinian theory. Instead of admitting his error, the Darwinist moved the goalpost by pretending that the issue the ID proponent was addressing with the Gould quotation was whether that phrase is a tautology:

Darwinist:

Well, it’s staggering to me that anyone could spend years arguing about evolution and end up thinking “Survival of the fittest” was a central idea in “Darwinism”, rather than a slightly silly slogan.

ID Proponent:

So, dear readers, we have [Darwinist] denying that “survival of the fittest” is a central idea in Darwinism. Interesting, because Stephen Jay Gould, one of the leading proponents of evolutionary theory in the last 50 years says this:

Natural selection is the central concept of Darwinian theory – the fittest survive and spread their favored traits through populations. Natural selection is defined by Spencer’s phrase, “survival of the fittest” . . .”

Whom shall we believe about whether “survival of the fittest” is a central concept in Darwinian theory? And here’s another interesting question. Why would Darwinist think he could get away with such an egregious falsehood?

At this point the Darwinist is well and truly stuck. He got caught in a falsehood. Of course, the honorable thing to do would be to admit his error and apologize. Does he do the honorable thing? Of course not. Being a Darwinist means never having to say you are sorry. The story continues:

Darwinist:

[ID proponent], I’ll credit you that this little trip to the quote mine was sloppy, rather than a deliberate misrepresentation.

In case it’s not now abundantly clear: if “fittest” means “those that survive” then “survival of the fittest” is not the core idea in Darwinism. For that phrase to adequately describe evolutionary biology “fittest” must mean something else. Most importantly, the theory of natural selection let’s us do science, test ideas svc develop new models (and has been very successful at that ).

Really, the only interfering question that remains is how [ID proponent] can be so ignorant of evolutionary biology, but so sure he is right.

Notice how the Darwinist moved the goalpost. The specific issue under discussion was whether the phrase “survival of the fittest” is a central tenant of Darwinian theory. Darwinist says it is not, that it is just a “silly slogan.” ID proponent crushes that assertion by quoting one of the most prominent Darwinists in the last 75 years saying that the phrase is another way of saying “natural selection,” and that natural selection is a “central concept of Darwinian theory.”

Game over. ID proponent has won the debate.

Goal post moving: Instead of admitting his error, Darwinist retorts that a tautological conception of “survival of the fittest” is not the core idea of Darwinism and implies that a non-tautological scientifically testable conception of the phrase is indeed part of the theory.

Set aside whether the phrase “survival of the fittest” is tautological. That is a discussion we are happy to have, but it was not the issue being debated at this moment. The issue under debate [issue “X”] was Darwinist’s assertion that the phrase “survival of the fittest” is “a slightly silly slogan” instead of a central idea in Darwinian theory. When Darwinist’s falsehood is exposed, instead of admitting his error, he changes the subject and pretends the issue [issue “Y”] was whether a tautological conception of natural selection is part of the theory. The Darwinist adds insult to his deceit by calling the ID proponent “ignorant of evolutionary biology.”

Note that it makes no difference whether this sub-discussion over issue X occurred in the context of a larger discussion about whether natural selection is tautological (issue Y). The specific issue under debate was issue X, whether the phrase “survival of the fittest” was part of Darwinian theory.

Darwinist’s behavior in this example is, of course, equal parts shameful, deceitful and pathetic. Sadly, similar antics from Darwinists are seen all too often in these pages.

Comments
Barry, You are being very naive... Why do you expect wd400 or most Darwinists to feel shame or embarrassed...? They would have to have conscience first... But their indoctrination doesn't allow that because it is a sign of weakness and as you mention it already, for them it is the survival of the fittest and not of the weakest...Quest
October 10, 2014
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wd400: "I see nothing in this thread about which I should be ashamed." Of course you don't, and that is the problem.Barry Arrington
October 10, 2014
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Barry, I see nothing in this thread about which I should be ashamed. If you want to withdraw from the discussion that's fine, but I hope, once you get out of the sulk you seem have got yourself into on this topic, you'll take some time to see how science actually uses the concetps of fitness and selection, and how they are not in fact "vacuous" or "tautological".wd400
October 10, 2014
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Barry: "And I take you are utterly without shame." Nice mature response. From this response I assume that you refuse to respond to WD400's request. You could simply state this rather that resort to an insult.stenosemella
October 10, 2014
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Stenosemella at 15 and Barry Arrington at 16, sorry if I sounded a little uncharitable. Great issues are in play, and it makes no sense, really, to cavil about historically long established facts such as that Darwin gladly accepted Herbert Spencer's coinage as convenient for describing his theory. Which obviates any issue created by his not having coined it himself. What I wish to draw attention to is that these facts are easily ascertained and have never been in doubt. Cavilling about them serves only to confuse onlookers. So why confuse onlookers? Such behaviour should cause people who are still wondering to question Darwin's defenders' claims.News
October 10, 2014
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Heartlander: "In the fifth edition of Origin’s, Chapter IV was titled “Natural Selection, or the Survival of the Fittest”." Since there were only six editions in Darwin's lifetime, this must have been top if his mindstenosemella
October 10, 2014
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Hmmm… this reminds me of something – oh yes, The Black Knight .Heartlander
October 10, 2014
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And I take you are utterly without shame.Barry Arrington
October 10, 2014
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I take it from this that you simply refuse to engage with the real argument?wd400
October 10, 2014
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wd400 just stop it. Really. Please. It is embarrassing.Barry Arrington
October 10, 2014
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As News pointed out @ 14:
"I have called this principle, by which each slight variation, if useful, is preserved, by the term Natural Selection, in order to mark its relation to man's power of selection. But the expression often used by Mr. Herbert Spencer of the Survival of the Fittest is more accurate, and is sometimes equally convenient." -C. Darwin
In the fifth edition of Origin’s, Chapter IV was titled "Natural Selection, or the Survival of the Fittest".Heartlander
October 10, 2014
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As you have such difficulty engaging with the substance, I'll make take a moment to be as clear as possible about this. You have claimed that there the central idea in Darwinism is a tautology (i.e. that "survival of the fittest" is tautological, and using those definitions of the words, this idea is central to Darwinism), and that the concept of fitness as used in evolutionary biology is "vacuous". I don't think either of these are true. The central idea in Darwinism is not that "survivors survivors", and indeed, examples like the Gould quote (in their proper context) make this clear. Moreover, the concent of fitness and the theory of natural selection are helpful, in that they enable us to do science. To take just one example. Using the concept of fitness, we have good population-gentetic models of what happens when a newly-arising allele is selected for (has high fitness), and also what happens when the fitness of an existing alleles suddenly get's higher (i.e. the environment changes such that a previously neutral variant become advantageous). We can use these models, not just to detect selection in genomes (one of the most crucial ways in which we can understand genomic sequences), but also to differentiate so called "hard sweeps" were new genetic variants were favoured as soon as they were born, and "soft sweeps" or "adaptation from standing variation" when some individuals were effectly "pre-adapted" to some environmental change. When we see, for instance, regions of low-genomic diversity surrounding alleles for lactose-tolerance in diarying culutres selection has occured. These models allows us to detect selection, detect types of selection and even predict how different popualtions will react to future changes of environment. How do think evolutionary biology has been able to make so much out of this concept if it's simply a vacuous tautology?wd400
October 10, 2014
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"WD, this may come as a surprise to you, but I really am grieving over your behavior. I wish I could make it stop, but obviously I can’t." You could always ban him. It's not unheard of.stenosemella
October 10, 2014
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WD, this may come as a surprise to you, but I really am grieving over your behavior. I wish I could make it stop, but obviously I can’t.Barry Arrington
October 10, 2014
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Sorry Barry, are you going to address the substantive bit of the argument or are you going to play a silly point-scoring by taking quotes (mine and Gould'sout of context)?wd400
October 10, 2014
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stenosemella
But fitness from the biological perspective does not mean the fastest, strongest, best eyesight, whatever.
Good grief, he did it again.StephenB
October 10, 2014
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Dear readers, please observe wd400’s comment @ 9. Even in admitting his error (in a back door sort of way), he scoffs, deflects and attempts to discredit the one who pointed out his error. After all of these years of debating Darwinists I don’t know why I continue to be astonished by the depths of bad faith to which they are willing (nay, for all appearances, eager) to descend. But I am. It is all very sad.Barry Arrington
October 10, 2014
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News, yes, I am well aware of who coined the term. But fitness from the biological perspective does not mean the fastest, strongest, best eyesight, whatever. It is almost never applied at an individual trait level, except metaphorically (eg, a gene for ???). It can only be looked at from an entire phenotype point of view. Because it is an individual that has offspring, not a trait, it is possible for a trait that, by all measures, is less advantageous than others in the population to become fixed in a population; simply because it occurs in a phenotype that, as a whole, is more adaptive.stenosemella
October 10, 2014
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Re Stenosemella at 5: This is not an attempt to argue with a cluster of Darwin's trolls, but for the record, Herbert Spencer coined the term "survival of the fittest" and Darwin accepted it as descriptive of his theory: "is more accurate, and is sometimes equally convenient." http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/evolution/charles_darwin/darwin_survival_fittest_quotation.html Go on, cavil about that, will you? The world waits, or doesn't. Even Nature has signalled that it is moving on.News
October 10, 2014
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Evolutioinsts will continue to measure natural selection in the wild and sooner or later they will realize that it has no chance at producing the changes required by universal common descent. That is when they will start to catch up with the rest of the world.Joe
October 10, 2014
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Fitness (with a capital F) allowed us to do Science? Oh well, WD, that settles it then, But is it still allowing us to do Science? Maybe sadly outdated. Maybe silly now.ppolish
October 10, 2014
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I take it you agree that wd400 attempted to move the goalposts. Thanks.
What goalposts were these? Just because you do not understand what fitness means from a biological perspective, and WD400 does, and tries to explain it to you, doesn't mean that he was moving any goalposts. If anything, he was simply performing a public service, maybe even a charitable service.
BTW, do you agree with Jeffery Shallit that “[Hamlet] is more random than [gibberish]”?
Barrie, since Jeffrey Shallit never said this, how do you expect me to respond? That would be like me asking someone if they agreed with Barry Arrington that slavery should be reinstated.stenosemella
October 10, 2014
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Tim, I know Barry's MO well enough. I think most people can see through it easily enough.wd400
October 10, 2014
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I see that you would rather play semantic games than address any science, then? Perhaps I should have explictedly "fittest as we are discussin the term in this thread", though that seemed sort of superfluous. Now that we have that cleared up, I'll stand by my statements. If we take "fittest" to simply mean those that survive, then "surivival of the fittest" is not the core of idea in Darwinism. It would be staggering to think someone could spend as long as you have arguing about evolution and come away with this idea. Finally, I'll reiterate the most important point. Fitness, far from being an empty concept, has allowed us to do science. If others want to spend their time in pointless philoshophical debates about precisely what it mean by selection they are welcome to, in the mean time, scientists will continue to measure slection in the wild, build models that predicts its outcomes and detect historic slection in genes, genomes and populations.wd400
October 10, 2014
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Ok,stenosemella, it's your turn. Please stop! I have work to do! It's like creeping by a fender-bender on I-25! I can't not look. Aarrgh.Tim
October 10, 2014
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Steno @5: I take it you agree that wd400 attempted to move the goalposts. Thanks. I really ought to start on “Darwinian Debating Device #6: Tu quoque” of which you have just provided an excellent example. Thank you. BTW, do you agree with Jeffery Shallit that “[Hamlet] is more random than [gibberish]”?Barry Arrington
October 10, 2014
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Just to be clear, "descent with modification" is also NOT Darwinism anymore, right? I get confused. Would Darwin himself recognize Darwinism?mahuna
October 10, 2014
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Ahhh, the old moving the goalposts tactic. If anyone can identify it, it should be Barry. After all, he excelled at the tactic in his epic two character strings serial posting. I am amused by all of this discussion over a phrase that wasn't even coined by Darwin. I really don't understand Barry's logic. The ID community accepts that natural selection exists, they just disagree that it can change one kind into another. So, if it is a real process, how can it be circular? But if you want a circular argument how about this one: This animal/organ/molecule looks designed, therefore, it must have been designed.stenosemella
October 10, 2014
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Tim @ 2. Alas, your advice came too late for poor wd400. I literally would have bet $1,000 that he was going to push back along the lines of his comment 1 [including his sardonic and dismissive tone]. I was ready for it. I am conflicted though. Dealing with such as wd400 is like shooting fish in a barrel, kinda boring. On the other hand, exposing and categorizing their shameless and deceitful tactics is a public service.Barry Arrington
October 10, 2014
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wd400:
This all started because you claimed that fitness was a vacuous concept, and surivial of the fittest is a tautology.
No, wd400, this all started when flatly and without qualification you stated: 1. “Survival of the fittest” is a “rather silly slogan” that is not part of Darwinian theory. You did not say: 2. A tautological conception of “survival of the fittest” is a “rather silly slogan” that is not part of Darwinian theory. That you now pretend to have said “2” when you plainly said “1” is pathetic. You really are shameless. That’s OK though. Pointing out shameless Darwinian antics is what the “Darwinist Debating Devices” series is all about. Thank you for your cooperation.Barry Arrington
October 10, 2014
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