Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Darwinian Debating Device #4: “Desperate Distractions”

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Darwinists frequently employ the debating device that I call “Desperate Distractions.” This occurs when the Darwinist has lost the debate beyond any hope, and instead of admitting they have lost, the Darwinist continues to throw mud at the wall to see if anything will stick. Apparently, their determination never to cede a micro-millimeter impels them to continue to post even the most outrageous foolishness rather than be seen as ceding the field. I suppose they believe that as long as they continue to respond nobody will notice they have lost.

Our example of this debating device is drawn from a comment posted by a Darwinist defending Jeffrey Shallit, who ran a string of gibberish through a compression program and then ran the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy through the program and concluded that “String #2′s compressed version [i.e., the compressed version of the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy] is bigger and therefore more random than string #1 [i.e., gibberish achieved by haphazardly banging at a keyboard].”

Barry Arrington responded:

Sure, the compressed version of Hamlet is bigger than the compressed version of gibberish. And if one insists on defining relative randomness in terms of relative compressibility Hamlet is “more random.” Here’s the problem with that approach. It is glaringly obvious that Hamlet is not in any degree “random” whatsoever as that word is used by English speakers. Therefore, by its very nature it is not subject to a relative randomness analysis except to the extent one observes that it is totally non-random and any string that is even partially random is therefore more random. So what did Shallit accomplish when he insisted that under his esoteric definition of “random” Hamlet is “more random” than gibberish? He made a trivial mathematical point, and in the process made himself look foolish.

There followed a back and forth in the combox, but at the end of the day no one was able successfully to defend Shallit’s calling Hamlet more random than gibberish. That did not stop DiEb from continuing the debate long after the debate was lost, and he posted this gem:

J. Shallit said:

String #2′s compressed version is bigger and therefore more random than string #1: exactly the opposite of what Arrington implied!

That’s quite different from

“[Hamlet’s] compressed version is bigger and therefore more random than [gibberish].”

1. String #1 is not “Hamlet”, just an excerpt of ca. 500 bytes.

2. It’s not about gibberish in general, but about your special version of “gibberish”, represented by string #2.

First, let us fisk DiEb’s comment [DiEb gets the strings confused; I will correct this with brackets]:

1. String #[2] is not “Hamlet”, just an excerpt of ca. 500 bytes.

And the point of this observation is what exactly? Sure, Barry used “Hamlet” for a shorthand reference to the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy. So what? DiEb has drawn a distinction that makes no difference.

In other words, in order for DiEb’s comment to have any force it would have to make a difference that String # 2 is merely the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy instead of the entire play. He is essentially saying “Oh sure, the entire play of Hamlet may not be “more random’ than a string of gibberish, but the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy surely are.” And that statement is just plain foolish.

2. It’s not about gibberish in general, but about your special version of “gibberish”, represented by string #[1].

DiEB again draws a distinction that makes no difference. He is essentially saying “Oh sure, the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy might not be “more random” than gibberish in general, but it is certainly more random than the special version of gibberish in string 1.” No, the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy is not random at all. It follows that it is never “more random” than any gibberish, whether gibberish in general or the specific example of gibberish in string 1, and to suggest otherwise is, again, just plain foolish.

So what is going on here? DiEb has made a fool of himself. He obviously thought that making a fool of himself served some purpose. What purpose might that be? The purpose is to continue debating long after the debate is lost. It makes no difference that the actual words border on the idiotic. The point is to keep going in a desperate attempt to distract attention away from the fact that the debate has been lost, thus, “desperate distractions.”

Comments
E.Seignor:
P: It doesn’t really matter that you can describe an infinite number of differences between the two strings, does it?
ES: Actually, it crucially matters how many possible descriptions there are and which one we choose. If you are interested in other perspectives, you will take seriously what I say. If not, I will be forced to make this same point again.
You didn't really make a point. You made a bare assertion. In order to make a point, you'd need to explain why the number of descriptions is germane, let alone cruicial. Currently, I see no reason to take this particular assertion seriously, but I'm open to having my mind changed on the matter.
P: There is a very striking and obvious difference between the two strings that even a child could recognize. You and I both know that it is there. How would you describe that difference?
ES: You have a monolingual English-speaking child in mind? Maybe it’s inconceivable in your universe, but I am multilingual and English is my fourth language. Seriously, I won’t play guessing games.
For Shakespeare, written in the English language on an English blog by an English speaker and being discussed by English-speaking posters, yes, I have an English-speaking child in mind. I fail to see the importance of whether or not that child is monolingual. Similarly, I'm not sure why you are telling me how many languages you speak. Is this really important to the issue at hand? So far, it seems to me that your grasp of English is sufficient. I'm not so confident I can say the same about your grasp of games. Did you really suppose I'd have a non-English speaking child in mind when discussing the obvious difference a child can see between a string of gibberish and English text? And that I'd expect you to guess that? Or were you just being pedantic? Why don't we treat all games the same here, including rhetorical games? The OP has charged that anti IDers are prone to turn to distractions in an attempt to avoid the real issue. Are you going to do anything to disabuse observers of this notion? Anything at all? Or will you insist on reinforcing it? But if the English language is going to be a stumbling block for you, I'm happy to fall back on pictures. Mound of Dirt 1 Mound of Dirt 2 There is a very striking and obvious difference between the two mounds of dirt depicted that even a child could recognize. You and I both know that it is there. How would you describe that difference?Phinehas
October 15, 2014
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Joe:
DiEB:
Nevertheless one can look at the probability of this phrase coming up randomly
Do it then- I say the probability of Hamlet arising by chance is zero. What do you say?
First, Joe, thank you for showing how important my first "distinction without a difference" was: we are not talking about "Hamlet" but about a couple of lines of the famous soliloquy, in fact 534 bytes - quite a difference to the ca. 190Kbytes of the full play! There are 256^534 = 10^1286 strings of this length - and following W. Dembski's arguments - the probability of finding a specific one is 10^(-1286). Pretty small, but not zero.DiEb
October 15, 2014
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SB: "That’s very funny coming from someone who conveniently ignores these two verifiable facts of epistemology: [a] The creator of design, not the observer of design, projects design onto the object. [b] That is why the design is in the object and not, as you would have it, running around looking for a home or wandering off into another object. Correction: those are two facts about metaphysics. Through epistemology, we can discern the effects of the creative effort by drawing inferences from the evidence--not, as ES would have it, by projecting our cultural biases onto the evidence.StephenB
October 15, 2014
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Phinehas
It doesn’t really matter that you can describe an infinite number of differences between the two strings, does it?
Actually, it crucially matters how many possible descriptions there are and which one we choose. If you are interested in other perspectives, you will take seriously what I say. If not, I will be forced to make this same point again. Phinehas
You know exactly what I am asking.
Yes, I know exactly that you asked "If there is a difference, how would you describe the difference?" If you had something else in mind, then spell it out. I won't waste time for assumptions. Phinehas
There is a very striking and obvious difference between the two strings that even a child could recognize. You and I both know that it is there. How would you describe that difference?
You have a monolingual English-speaking child in mind? Maybe it's inconceivable in your universe, but I am multilingual and English is my fourth language. Seriously, I won't play guessing games. You are repeating a question I already answered. If you wanted to ask a different question, then go ahead.E.Seigner
October 15, 2014
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E.Seigner:
Phin: You appear to have skirted around this question: “How would you describe that difference?”
ES: I answered it. I told it can be answered in infinitely many ways.
No, you didn't really answer it. You blew smoke. You did pretty much exactly what the OP said you would. Instead of addressing what is staring you in the face, you chose to start pointing to all sorts of distractions. Look: I'm happy to learn new perspectives, especially from a fellow believer in God. If you have something important to say, I want to hear it. But please, let's drop the rhetorical games and just talk about the reality in front of us, shall we? It doesn't really matter that you can describe an infinite number of differences between the two strings, does it? You know exactly what I am asking. There is a very striking and obvious difference between the two strings that even a child could recognize. You and I both know that it is there. How would you describe that difference?Phinehas
October 15, 2014
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E. Seigner
Hmm. So you handily reconcile your “I can think of millions of things that have no design” with everyone else’s “All things have an order or arrangement” by saying that you are being epistemological rather than ontological.
Try to follow the argument. I didn't say that "Everything is designed" can be reconciled with "everything is not designed." What I said was that ID's epistemological method can be reconciled with the ontological proposition that everything is designed, which it can.
To help you out, here’s what epistemology is not" It’s not whatever you rationalize up for your own personal convenience.
That's very funny coming from someone who conveniently ignores these two verifiable facts of epistemology: [a] The creator of design, not the observer of design, projects design onto the object. Learn it, live it, love it. [b] That is why the design is in the object and not, as you would have it, running around looking for a home or wandering off into another object. When you learn the difference between the creator and the observer, and when you grasp the point that the design in my coffee cup cannot be applied to the design in your automobile, you will finally make progress, assuming that all your mental faculties are in operation.StephenB
October 15, 2014
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E Seigner- If you are done with us then why don't you leave and take your incoherent babbling with you.Joe
October 15, 2014
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StephenB
ID’s epistemological design inference is compatible with the ontological claim that everything is designed.
Hmm. So you handily reconcile your "I can think of millions of things that have no design" with everyone else's "All things have an order or arrangement" by saying that you are being epistemological rather than ontological. To help you out, here's what epistemology is not: It's not whatever you rationalize up for your own personal convenience. And here's what epistemology is: It's what anyone with certain faculties can reliably determine. And if they can't determine it, then there's an explanation why, the usual explanation being the lack of the relevant faculty. If you dispute this, I will not immediately conclude that you lack the relevant faculty to comprehend epistemology. Rather, I will assume that you have other additional faculties that interfere with the relevant faculty. I can still be generous even now that I am done with you.E.Seigner
October 15, 2014
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DiEB:
Nevertheless one can look at the probability of this phrase coming up randomly
Do it then- I say the probability of Hamlet arising by chance is zero. What do you say?Joe
October 15, 2014
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E Seigner:
In past discussions it has become abundantly clear that ID theorists don’t have the foggiest idea what causes ID is about.
You mean YOU don't have the foggiest idea what causes ID is about.Joe
October 15, 2014
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E Seigner
“My logic is that the design is analytically separable from the thing.
Your logic is wrong. Only the idea of the design or the purpose for the design can be analytically separate from the designed object--not the design itself.
Any design, form, pattern, etc. can be applied to any thing.
That's crazy. The design of my coffee cup cannot be applied to the design of your car. This is more of your nonsense to the effect that the observer projects design.
My last two sentences state the same as #1 above, and the rest is in harmony with the view that design proceeds, in first order, from intelligence, and is only incidentally related to things, i.e. design is not inherent to things, even though every thing has some design or other.
Doesn't follow at all. Not even close.
All these agree that design proceeds from intelligence and all things display some order or pattern. It’s common knowledge. Only you (and KF and BA and some other incoherent pomo hyperskeptics) disagree.
Everyone agrees that design proceeds from intelligence. Everyone agrees that natural bodies (as opposed to paint splattered by a vandal) display some kind of order or pattern. However, these ontological propositions, reasonable though they may be, have nothing to do with the design inference, which is epistemological. ID's epistemological design inference is compatible with the ontological claim that everything is designed. If you don't understand that fact, then you don't understand the design inference.
Funny enough, the way “design” is often talked about in ID theory, it comes very close to purpose rather than mere shape. “Design” in ID theory is often equivalent to a plan, to a project.
No, the purpose is the rationale for the design. It is not the design itself.
Is the project really in things or is it projected by intellect?
A project is not synonymous with a purpose, which is not synonymous with a design. You must learn to make these distinctions. However, as I have already explained to you, the designer projects design into the thing. The architect and the engineer project design into the building. The concept of the design was first in the mind of the designer and then became realized in the designed object when the parts were so arranged. Now please pay attention: The observer of the building does not project a demn thing. The observer detects the design that the designer projected into the designed object. It is your argument that the observer projects design on the basis of his cultural biases and prejudices. Your argument is nonsense. The observer doesn't project design; the creator projects design. The observer detects (or infers) design. The design is in the designed object. There is no where else that it can possibly be. Have you got it?StephenB
October 15, 2014
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StephenB
ES: Dembski says, “For the Thomist/Aristotelian, final causation and thus design is everywhere.” StephenB: I am not challenging that proposition. I am challenging your absurd claim that the observer “projects” design and that the history of philosophy confirms that claim. You cannot defend that assertion—even on a dare.
More specifically, here you challenged my argument of the nature of design, and my claim that the argument is standard in classical philosophy. Now, instead of quoting Aquinas and Aristotle at length to you and to end up quibbling about words like "art" and "order" and whichever way the relevant terms have been translated into English, I will quote a syllogized summary of Aquinas' argument from design on a university website:
1. All things have an order or arrangement, and work for an end. 2. The order of the universe cannot be explained by chance, but only by design and purpose. 3. Design and purpose is a product of intelligence. 4. Therefore nature is directed by a Divine Intelligence or Great Designer.
Premises #1 and #3 are most relevant here. #1 is an inductive generalization from experience. #3 proposes the source of design, based on the nature of intelligence. Design proceeds from intellect. Intellect imparts design to things, hence design is not inherent to things, but imposed, secondarily imputed. Right? Keeping this in mind, compare it with my argument: "My logic is that the design is analytically separable from the thing. Any design, form, pattern, etc. can be applied to any thing. Each thing has some design or other. There’s no thing without some design or other." My last two sentences state the same as #1 above, and the rest is in harmony with the view that design proceeds, in first order, from intelligence, and is only incidentally related to things, i.e. design is not inherent to things, even though every thing has some design or other. Moreover, #1 goes squarely against your proposition that you can see a million things that have no design. You really need a separate argument to back it up, to make it even intelligible. Now, the essential outline of the argument from design is not specific to Aquinas, but derives from Aristotle. It is also, with modifications, shared with Platonism, Islamic philosophy, Buddhism, and Vedanta. All these agree that design proceeds from intelligence and all things display some order or pattern. It's common knowledge. Only you (and KF and BA and some other incoherent pomo hyperskeptics) disagree. Funny enough, the way "design" is often talked about in ID theory, it comes very close to purpose rather than mere shape. "Design" in ID theory is often equivalent to a plan, to a project. Is the project really in things or is it projected by intellect? Instead of blaming me for saying that design is projected - i.e. proceeds from intelligence, not from the thing - ID theorists themselves should be saying this, if they were coherent and consistent, attentive of their own metaphysical assumptions, and in line with common logic. Evidently you don't want to be. But I digress. I was done with you.E.Seigner
October 15, 2014
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Phinehas
You appear to have skirted around this question: "How would you describe that difference?"
I answered it. I told it can be answered in infinitely many ways. This is precisely how I personally answer this question in the abstract, which is how you presented it. Furthermore, if something crucially depends on how I personally would describe it, how I personally would approach it, then there's a problem - the problem of the lack of common ground, lack of independent evaluation, lack of objectivity. There's already plenty of that. Mung
ES: Design and shape are synonyms. They are also interchangeable with pattern and structure for most purposes. Mung: Another synonym would be form. Correct?
Correct. Mung
ES: To play it safe, I quote Dembski, because I cannot be sure you would recognize any other authority. Dembski says, “For the Thomist/Aristotelian, final causation and thus design is everywhere.” Mung: And yet final causes are not formal causes.
Indeed. And, for your information, forms do not equal formal causes. Form in English equals shape. Formal cause equals essence. As to final causes, I deeply doubt Dembski knows what they are. And the emphasis is not in any causes anyway. The emphasis for our purposes is on that design is everywhere for Aristotelians and Thomists. At least that much is intelligible and that's the part I agree on in the quote. Mung
So you and SB appear to be talking past one another.
So true. And it appears so do you and I. Mung
ES: So, everybody at least from Aristotle to Aquinas base their line of argument on the thesis that design is omnipresent. Intelligent design is about efficient causes, not formal or final or material causes.
In past discussions it has become abundantly clear that ID theorists don't have the foggiest idea what causes ID is about. See, Dembski's quote looks like equating design with final causes. You say it's efficient causes. You two seem to be talking past each other.E.Seigner
October 14, 2014
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ES E. Seigner
Dembski says, “For the Thomist/Aristotelian, final causation and thus design is everywhere.”
I am not challenging that proposition. I am challenging your absurd claim that the observer "projects" design and that the history of philosophy confirms that claim. You cannot defend that assertion---even on a dare.StephenB
October 14, 2014
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E Seigner:
Design and shape are synonyms.
That all depends on the context. And in the context of the coffee spill they are not synonymous.
This is why I am done with you like I was done with Joe at a fairly early stage.
LoL! You were done long before you showed up here.Joe
October 14, 2014
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DK, Send money :)Mung
October 14, 2014
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Mung:
I am so confused.
We already knew that. How can we help you?Daniel King
October 14, 2014
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I am so confused. E.Seigner:
Design and shape are synonyms. They are also interchangeable with pattern and structure for most purposes.
Another synonym would be form. Correct? E:Seigner:
To play it safe, I quote Dembski, because I cannot be sure you would recognize any other authority. Dembski says, “For the Thomist/Aristotelian, final causation and thus design is everywhere.”
And yet final causes are not formal causes. So you and SB appear to be talking past one another. E:Seigner:
So, everybody at least from Aristotle to Aquinas base their line of argument on the thesis that design is omnipresent.
Intelligent design is about efficient causes, not formal or final or material causes.Mung
October 14, 2014
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E.Seigner: You appear to have skirted around this question:
How would you describe that difference?
Phinehas
October 14, 2014
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Phinehas
OK, so everything is designed. Now, do you admit that there is a qualitative difference between string 1 and string 2. If so, then how would you describe that difference?
Sure there's a difference. Different qualities can be described in infinite ways. Linguistic, literary, calligraphical, historical, cognitive, optometrical, sociological, geometrical, etc. Since ID is quantitative, it has no way of saying which qualitative difference is relevant.E.Seigner
October 14, 2014
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E.Seigner: OK, so everything is designed. Now, do you admit that there is a qualitative difference between string 1 and string 2. If so, then how would you describe that difference?Phinehas
October 14, 2014
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Phinehas
If I understand you correctly, you are equating “design” with “shape” or perhaps “all the characteristics taken together” of an object.
Design and shape are synonyms. They are also interchangeable with pattern and structure for most purposes. "All characteristics taken together" is quite different. In some sense, "all characteristics taken together" amount to the thing itself, whereas design and shape are what the thing superficially appears to be. What the thing is and what it appears to be is a very important distinction. Among other implications, since design is what the thing appears to be rather than what it is, it's a contradiction in terms to say that design is inherent to the thing. Superficialities are incidental, not inherent. Phinehas
From this perspective, you believe that God has given shape/design/characteristics to everything in existence. So, everything that exists has characteristics, ultimately given it by God. Perhaps, in a similar way, Barry gave shape/design/characteristics to String #1. In a sense, it could be said that Barry “designed” the string to appear random. Barry is directly responsible for the ordering and content. Etc. Is this about right?
Not just that Barry typed the string, not just that the string has been typed at all, not just that the string consists of ASCII characters, but the fact that there are distinct shapes, that we can call it a string, etc. It has a shape or design. Only chaos lacks design, but chaos is after the end (and before the beginning) of the universe, so this doesn't count for our empirical purposes. StephenB I'm basically done with you. Just this little thing:
ES: And it’s not my personal argument. It’s standard throughout classical philosophy. StephenB: You cannot support that claim. I dare you to try.
To play it safe, I quote Dembski, because I cannot be sure you would recognize any other authority. Dembski says, "For the Thomist/Aristotelian, final causation and thus design is everywhere." So, everybody at least from Aristotle to Aquinas base their line of argument on the thesis that design is omnipresent. Edward Feser, who might be more readily available for you, makes the same point. Dembski continues: "Fair enough. ID has no beef with this." Whereas you have lots of irrational beef, wilful misunderstandings, and conflict-oriented disrespect. This is why I am done with you like I was done with Joe at a fairly early stage.E.Seigner
October 14, 2014
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DiEb @ 6: As soon as you stop evading the question and address how the two distinctions you drew made any difference whatsoever, I will answer your question.
I wrote about my first distinction ("And the point of this observation is what exactly? Sure, Barry used “Hamlet” for a shorthand reference to the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy. So what? DiEb has drawn a distinction that makes no difference. ") in my comment #2:
Thirdly, B. Arrington and I have different opinions when it comes to the handling of quotations and that is something for which I will not apologize. But while I’m willing to accept that “[Hamlet’s] compressed version is bigger and therefore more random than [gibberish].” uses [Hamlet] and [gibberish] as “shorthand references”, this excuse is ridiculous when the phrase evolves to something like:
It is just sad to watch Shallit howl in success that he has demonstrated that Hamlet is more random than gibberish.
That’s not a shorthand, just a misrepresentation.
For me the difference is that one is a shorthand, understandable in context, but the other is a clear misrepresentation of Shallit's ideas, especially when you don't provide context. So now for my second distinction:
DiEB again draws a distinction that makes no difference. He is essentially saying “Oh sure, the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy might not be “more random” than gibberish in general, but it is certainly more random than the special version of gibberish in string 1.” No, the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy is not random at all. It follows that it is never “more random” than any gibberish, whether gibberish in general or the specific example of gibberish in string 1, and to suggest otherwise is, again, just plain foolish.
No, Hamlet's soliloquy is not random. Nor is the phrase "methinks it is like a weasel". Nevertheless one can look at the probability of this phrase coming up randomly - William Dembski has done so. Why not I?DiEb
October 14, 2014
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E Seigner
I say “inherent”, and this is not the same as “in the thing”.
Bad logic. It is exactly the same thing. Inherent (definition) "existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute."
Actually, I laid out an argument that demonstrated how design is analytically separable, and you said nothing to refute it.
Your attempt at an argument stands on your false assertion that the observer "projects" design in accordance with his cultural biases and prejudices, which you are now trying to quietly disavow by refusing to acknowledge it. Before I refuted that position, you boldly claimed it. Now, you want nothing to do with it. Sorry, but life doesn't work that way.
And it’s not my personal argument. It’s standard throughout classical philosophy.
You cannot support that claim. I dare you to try.
You evidently have no clue *who* you are calling “bad logic” here.
Bad logic. I didn't call "you" bad logic. I said that your arguments are built on bad logic (and false premises).
Anyway, ever since I saw how little respect you have for science, it was clear that you have even less respect for philosophy and logic. It’s conclusively confirmed now.
I have enormous respect for science and philosophy--less so for your unorthodox interpretations of science and philosophy. It is not I who denies the legitimacy of inferential reasoning in the name of "projection," it is you.StephenB
October 14, 2014
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E Seigner:
Anyway, ever since I saw how little respect you have for science, ...
Nice projection.Joe
October 14, 2014
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StephenB
Bad logic: To say that design is in the thing is not to say that it is the thing.
We are talking past each other. I say "inherent", and this is not the same as "in the thing". Since I noticed that we are talking past each other, but you didn't, my logic is, even if bad, still better than yours. StephenB
Bad logic: To presuppose, believe, or assume that design is analytically separable from the thing is not to apply logic.
Actually, I laid out an argument that demonstrated how design is analytically separable, and you said nothing to refute it. And it's not my personal argument. It's standard throughout classical philosophy. You evidently have no clue *who* you are calling "bad logic" here. Anyway, ever since I saw how little respect you have for science, it was clear that you have even less respect for philosophy and logic. It's conclusively confirmed now.E.Seigner
October 14, 2014
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E.Seigner: If I understand you correctly, you are equating "design" with "shape" or perhaps "all the characteristics taken together" of an object. From this perspective, you believe that God has given shape/design/characteristics to everything in existence. So, everything that exists has characteristics, ultimately given it by God. Perhaps, in a similar way, Barry gave shape/design/characteristics to String #1. In a sense, it could be said that Barry "designed" the string to appear random. Barry is directly responsible for the ordering and content. Etc. Is this about right?Phinehas
October 14, 2014
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E. Saigner
It takes a separate argument for you to establish that the thing is the same as its design.
Bad logic: To say that design is in the thing is not to say that it is the thing.
But if you did, and if design was inherent to things and inseparable from them, then wouldn’t this make it logically impossible for you to show me a thing without design?
Bad logic: To say that design is inherent in a thing is not to say that everything is designed.
My logic is that the design is analytically separable from the thing.
Bad logic: To presuppose, believe, or assume that design is analytically separable from the thing is not to apply logic.
Each thing has some design or other. There’s no thing without some design or other. Things can be re-designed whichever way, but empirically never un-designed.
What you want to say here is that everything in the universe is designed (humans, the cosmos, etc), including the raw materials for other designs (matter itself). Thus, the designed matter of which my coffee cup is made was always present, but the design in the coffee cup, which is a special arrangement of designed matter, did not exist until it was designed. You are confusing the designed matter in the object with the design of the object.
This means that the thing can be mentally separated from its design, one can imagine the thing with some other design, and then one can follow through with the plan, to re-design the thing. However, the thing has some design or other all along. It’s never without it.
Bad logic: I cannot imagine my coffee cup having another design. If it has another design, it is no longer a coffee cup. I can, however, imagine the matter in my coffee cup being rearranged into another kind of object.
You assume and assert there’s bad logic somewhere, without properly identifying where it is and what would be the right logic.
Bad logic: I did not simply assume and assert the existence of bad logic, I provided examples of bad logic.StephenB
October 14, 2014
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E. Seigner
What I have said is design cannot be empirically detected. From this you jumped to “nothing is designed” but this was an unwarranted non-sequitur on your part.
You have claimed that humans project design onto the object. You have also claimed that everything was already designed even before humans came into existence. If you don't understand why that is a contradiction, I will be happy to explain it.StephenB
October 14, 2014
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E Seigner:
Anyway, it’s not my job to fix ID theory.
You couldn't fix anything. Not only tat it is a given that you couldn't find anything that is actually wrong with ID.
What doesn’t make sense is how anyone, believer or not, can hold that some things are devoid of design and, furthermore, that the distinction can be quantified.
And yet we do exactly tat on a daily basis.
How are things designed? Someone outside shapes the thing, that’s how. Hence the design is not inherent to the thing, but imposed.
LoL! What you said means that the design is inherent in the thing. The design is inherent to my car, house, computer, etc. As I said, obviously you have issues.Joe
October 14, 2014
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