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Darwinian Debating Device #4: “Desperate Distractions”

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Darwinists frequently employ the debating device that I call “Desperate Distractions.” This occurs when the Darwinist has lost the debate beyond any hope, and instead of admitting they have lost, the Darwinist continues to throw mud at the wall to see if anything will stick. Apparently, their determination never to cede a micro-millimeter impels them to continue to post even the most outrageous foolishness rather than be seen as ceding the field. I suppose they believe that as long as they continue to respond nobody will notice they have lost.

Our example of this debating device is drawn from a comment posted by a Darwinist defending Jeffrey Shallit, who ran a string of gibberish through a compression program and then ran the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy through the program and concluded that “String #2′s compressed version [i.e., the compressed version of the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy] is bigger and therefore more random than string #1 [i.e., gibberish achieved by haphazardly banging at a keyboard].”

Barry Arrington responded:

Sure, the compressed version of Hamlet is bigger than the compressed version of gibberish. And if one insists on defining relative randomness in terms of relative compressibility Hamlet is “more random.” Here’s the problem with that approach. It is glaringly obvious that Hamlet is not in any degree “random” whatsoever as that word is used by English speakers. Therefore, by its very nature it is not subject to a relative randomness analysis except to the extent one observes that it is totally non-random and any string that is even partially random is therefore more random. So what did Shallit accomplish when he insisted that under his esoteric definition of “random” Hamlet is “more random” than gibberish? He made a trivial mathematical point, and in the process made himself look foolish.

There followed a back and forth in the combox, but at the end of the day no one was able successfully to defend Shallit’s calling Hamlet more random than gibberish. That did not stop DiEb from continuing the debate long after the debate was lost, and he posted this gem:

J. Shallit said:

String #2′s compressed version is bigger and therefore more random than string #1: exactly the opposite of what Arrington implied!

That’s quite different from

“[Hamlet’s] compressed version is bigger and therefore more random than [gibberish].”

1. String #1 is not “Hamlet”, just an excerpt of ca. 500 bytes.

2. It’s not about gibberish in general, but about your special version of “gibberish”, represented by string #2.

First, let us fisk DiEb’s comment [DiEb gets the strings confused; I will correct this with brackets]:

1. String #[2] is not “Hamlet”, just an excerpt of ca. 500 bytes.

And the point of this observation is what exactly? Sure, Barry used “Hamlet” for a shorthand reference to the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy. So what? DiEb has drawn a distinction that makes no difference.

In other words, in order for DiEb’s comment to have any force it would have to make a difference that String # 2 is merely the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy instead of the entire play. He is essentially saying “Oh sure, the entire play of Hamlet may not be “more random’ than a string of gibberish, but the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy surely are.” And that statement is just plain foolish.

2. It’s not about gibberish in general, but about your special version of “gibberish”, represented by string #[1].

DiEB again draws a distinction that makes no difference. He is essentially saying “Oh sure, the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy might not be “more random” than gibberish in general, but it is certainly more random than the special version of gibberish in string 1.” No, the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy is not random at all. It follows that it is never “more random” than any gibberish, whether gibberish in general or the specific example of gibberish in string 1, and to suggest otherwise is, again, just plain foolish.

So what is going on here? DiEb has made a fool of himself. He obviously thought that making a fool of himself served some purpose. What purpose might that be? The purpose is to continue debating long after the debate is lost. It makes no difference that the actual words border on the idiotic. The point is to keep going in a desperate attempt to distract attention away from the fact that the debate has been lost, thus, “desperate distractions.”

Comments
ES: “Can you name a thing that has no design or function?” SB: “the pattern my coffee makes on the floor after I spill it” ES: “coffee still has function” … “I won’t accept category errors” … “there is no logical way to distinguish design from non-design” … “I have been faced with nonsense like this here all along”
ES, what is the "design or function" in the pattern of coffee spilled on the Stephen’s floor? It’s a simple question: what is the function of the pattern?Upright BiPed
October 11, 2014
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DiEB- If you want to provide a clear example of specified text do you A) provide an encrypted form of the specified text (unrecognizable) or B) provide the text verbatim so that it is recognizable?Joe
October 11, 2014
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I found a source of Shallit's confusion:
String #2 can be said to "conform" to many, many different specifications: English text, English text written by Shakespeare, messages of length less than 545, and so forth. But the same can be said for string #1.
Except of course that string #1 does not conform to English text. It does not conform to English text written by Shakespeare, it's creator has said it isn't a message and so forth. So Barry tries to spoon feed the opposition, they knock the spoon out of his hand and then complain about the service. And in their little minds it becomes some sort of victory. The sad part is that tactic is the strength of their positionJoe
October 11, 2014
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DiEb @ 6: As soon as you stop evading the question and address how the two distinctions you drew made any difference whatsoever, I will answer your question.Barry Arrington
October 11, 2014
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BA:
What is conspicuous in its absence? Any defense of his antics described in the OP. And why does he not attempt to defend his antics? Because they are indefensible, as “desperate distractions” always are.
Perhaps I was to subtle. My apologies.
Darwinists frequently employ the debating device that I call “Desperate Distractions.” This occurs when the Darwinist has lost the debate beyond any hope, and instead of admitting they have lost, the Darwinist continues to throw mud at the wall to see if anything will stick. Apparently, their determination never to cede a micro-millimeter impels them to continue to post even the most outrageous foolishness rather than be seen as ceding the field. I suppose they believe that as long as they continue to respond nobody will notice they have lost.
To address this point, I wrote: "That’s the second time that there is a post at Uncommon Descent with me at its center: the other one was Questioning Information Cost, where Winston Ewert – collaborator of W. Dembski and R. Marks – and I discussed some questions I had about their paper “A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search”. W. Ewert even was able to clarify some of my misconceptions." - so, you see, though I'm a "Darwinist" in your dictionary, I do accept that I have misconceptions which can be cleared...
There followed a back and forth in the combox, but at the end of the day no one was able successfully to defend Shallit’s calling Hamlet more random than gibberish.
I wrote "I’m willing to accept that “[Hamlet’s] compressed version is bigger and therefore more random than [gibberish].” uses [Hamlet] and [gibberish] as “shorthand references”, this excuse is ridiculous when the phrase evolves to something like: It is just sad to watch Shallit howl in success that he has demonstrated that Hamlet is more random than gibberish." In fact, BA, you wrote in this very piece above that J. Shallit was calling "Hamlet more random than gibberish". He never did, and repeating this statement doesn't make it true.
DiEB again draws a distinction that makes no difference. He is essentially saying “Oh sure, the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy might not be “more random” than gibberish in general, but it is certainly more random than the special version of gibberish in string 1.” No, the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy is not random at all. It follows that it is never “more random” than any gibberish, whether gibberish in general or the specific example of gibberish in string 1, and to suggest otherwise is, again, just plain foolish.
This is addressed by my fourth point: " even if we know that a string wasn’t the product of a random process, we can calculate the probability that it will occur as the product of a random process – W. Dembski did so for the phrase “methinks it is like a weasel”. So, I agree that “the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy is not random at all.”, but nevertheless, we can look at a random process spouting out letters with uniform probability and ask ourselves: when will it come up? " So, I think I addressed at least a couple of your points. I just don't think that stating my conclusions and answering your questions are "antics". And again, I ask:
B. Arrington, what’s your take: is “4ad9;SdaodDajdjad9;Sdjfijdvsdjf;dHJ;sjvaD5…” gibberish or is it Hamlet – or something else?
- yes, I did spot the absence of an answer to this...DiEb
October 11, 2014
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ES, what exactly is the "design or function" in the pattern of coffee spilled on the Stephen's floor? It's a simple question: what is the "design or function" of the pattern? Given the obvious vehemence you've demonstrated at the whole ordeal, I would think the answer would be easy for you. What is it?Upright BiPed
October 11, 2014
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ES @ 2
What if the defense of the antics is missing because the antics are only there in your imagination?
ES @ 4
I think DiEB sufficiently explained himself in #2.
Hmmm. DiEb's defense is missing but nevertheless sufficient for ES. OK. For those who do not speak Darwinese, I will translate ES’s comments into plain English:
I’ve got nothing, and I try to disguise the vacuity of my ideas by increasing the bombast of my rants.
Again, equal parts sad, embarrassing and pathetic. ES, I implore you to do better. Your adolescent rants are growing tiresome.Barry Arrington
October 11, 2014
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Mapou:
My point is that, sometimes, even non-repetition is a sign of design.
Of course it is. As a matter of fact, many statistics teacher will demonstrate how difficult it is to "fake" random by having half the class flip a penny 100 times and the other half write down a "random" sequence of heads and tails. The teacher then picks the designed sequences with almost 100% accuracy. The trick? Look for the sequences that have six or seven heads in a row. These will be the actual flipped coins. Humans erroneously believe that a random sequence will not have any long repeating sequences.Barry Arrington
October 11, 2014
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Barry Arrington
OK ES. DiEb was unable to defend his comment. Can you? Can you tell me how the distinctions DiEb drew made a difference? If you can’t then your comment at 4 will exposed for so much ranting.
I think DiEB sufficiently explained himself in #2. You don't think so, but you ask no further questions. You only repeat what was already answered. What can I say? It appears that different people are satisfied with different kinds of explanations. Good luck finding yours.E.Seigner
October 11, 2014
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DiEb is incorrigible. No surprise here. Going on a slight tangent, it occurred to me that there is one thing about the Hamlet string that is detectable by our brains but is completely invisible to a compression algorithm. Shakespeare went out of his way not to repeat himself in short passages. The only parts of the string that he could not avoid repeating are the many spaces between words, the small articles (a, an, the, of, etc.), and of course, the individual letter codes themselves. My point is that, sometimes, even non-repetition is a sign of design.Mapou
October 11, 2014
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ES: "Can you name a thing that has no design or function?" SB: "the pattern my coffee makes on the floor after I spill it" ES: "coffee still has function” … “I won’t accept category errors” … “there is no logical way to distinguish design from non-design” … “I have been faced with nonsense like this here all along”
ES, you probably shouldn't trust your reading comprehension to pick out irony.Upright BiPed
October 11, 2014
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OK ES. DiEb was unable to defend his comment. Can you? Can you tell me how the distinctions DiEb drew made a difference? If you can't then your comment at 4 will exposed for so much ranting.Barry Arrington
October 11, 2014
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Barry Arrington
I invite readers to examine DiEb’s comment @ 2 closely. What is conspicuous in its absence? Any defense of his antics described in the OP.
What if the defense of the antics is missing because the antics are only there in your imagination? What if you are misrepresenting DiEB the way you misrepresent Shallit, and the way you misrepresent the original context where you first typed the strings? I'm very much tempted to call your tactics "desperate distractions", but this would be true, and you don't appreciate truth. Also, it would be revealing that you are guilty of what you blame others for, and this would not at all be nice to you. So I will play nice and not say this.E.Seigner
October 11, 2014
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I invite readers to examine DiEb’s comment @ 2 closely. What is conspicuous in its absence? Any defense of his antics described in the OP. And why does he not attempt to defend his antics? Because they are indefensible, as “desperate distractions” always are.Barry Arrington
October 11, 2014
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That's the second time that there is a post at Uncommon Descent with me at its center: the other one was Questioning Information Cost, where Winston Ewert - collaborator of W. Dembski and R. Marks - and I discussed some questions I had about their paper "A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search". W. Ewert even was able to clarify some of my misconceptions. For a second post, I'd have preferred a discussion of W. Dembski's talk at the University of Chicago, which I have transcibed here - or perhaps about the amusing little miscalculation in his "perhaps the simplest example". But alas, there are more (hobby) philosophers at UD than (hobby) mathematicians... Secondly, it would have been nicer when B. Arrington just answered some question I have asked him, instead of evading them and coming up with another opinion piece about the oh-so-evil/stupid-evolutionists. Questions like:
B. Arrington, what’s your take: is “4ad9;SdaodDajdjad9;Sdjfijdvsdjf;dHJ;sjvaD5…” gibberish or is it Hamlet – or something else?
Thirdly, B. Arrington and I have different opinions when it comes to the handling of quotations and that is something for which I will not apologize. But while I'm willing to accept that “[Hamlet’s] compressed version is bigger and therefore more random than [gibberish].” uses [Hamlet] and [gibberish] as "shorthand references", this excuse is ridiculous when the phrase evolves to something like:
It is just sad to watch Shallit howl in success that he has demonstrated that Hamlet is more random than gibberish.
That's not a shorthand, just a misrepresentation. Fourthly, even if we know that a string wasn't the product of a random process, we can calculate the probability that it will occur as the product of a random process - W. Dembski did so for the phrase "methinks it is like a weasel". So, I agree that "the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy is not random at all.", but nevertheless, we can look at a random process spouting out letters with uniform probability and ask ourselves: when will it come up? If I'm not afraid of VERY large numbers, I can think this through. We expect the outcome of such a random process to be not very good compressible, and we can compare the length of the compressed strings. Why not? Because you are telling us that it is Shakespeare we are talking about?DiEb
October 11, 2014
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Apparently, their determination never to cede a micro-millimeter impels them to continue to post even the most outrageous foolishness rather than be seen as ceding the field.
We've gotten a lot of mileage out of the Shallit threads because they offer so many examples of outrageous foolishness and determination never to cede a micro millimeter - even on totally irrelevant distractions.Silver Asiatic
October 10, 2014
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