Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Darwinism Is Turtles, All The Way Down — I’ll Explain Below the Fold

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For those not familiar with “turtles all the way down,” I offer the following from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

The most widely known version today appears in Stephen Hawking’s 1988 book A Brief History of Time, which begins with an anecdote about an encounter between a scientist and an old lady:

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: “What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.” The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, “What is the tortoise standing on?” “You’re very clever, young man, very clever,” said the old lady. “But it’s turtles all the way down.”

The association of Russell with this story is most likely due to Russell’s telling of a version of the story in his 1927 essay Why I Am Not a Christian (in discounting the “First Cause” argument intended to be a proof of God’s existence): “If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause. If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world as God, so that there cannot be any validity in that argument. It is exactly of the same nature as the Hindus’ view, that the world rested upon an elephant and the elephant rested upon a tortoise; and when they said, “How about the tortoise?” the Indian said, “Suppose we change the subject.” The argument is really no better than that.

Russell apparently did not know or could not conceptually grasp the notion that time itself came into being at the origin of the universe, so the question of the origin of the cause of the universe is completely meaningless. Something must exist on the time line of the physical universe in order for the question of origins to have any meaning at all. But I digress.

So, how is Darwinism “turtles all the way down”? Just search and replace “turtles” with “speculation.”

In a previous UD comment I noted that Darwinian explanations for the evolution of anatomical features (e.g. the eye) depend on easily imagined, but undemonstrated, gross morphological and naturally selectable pathways. But I also noted that the starting point, a light-sensitive spot, would be of no use, without colossally complex mechanisms that could transform photon collisions into neurological signals that could result in meaningful muscle movements.

Commenter Hawks retorted: “The old ‘something cannot possibly have evolved unless it was for the sole purpose of doing what it is doing in modern organisms’, aka ‘something had to evolve the intricacies of whole biochemical pathways (including all its enzymes) all at once in one feel swoop’ argument. It is very convincing.”

This is the now tiresome co-option fantasy which I blogged about here.

So, you see, Darwinian “theory” really is turtles (oops, speculation) all the way down. Speculate about imagined but undemonstrated morphological pathways, and when challenged to explain the engineering that would be required, speculate about imagined but undemonstrated and highly improbable co-option scenarios.

When it comes to Darwinism, this is how “science” works.

Comments
OFF TOPIC Am I the only one that is shocked at the fact that a working scientist (Wes Elsberry) could, at all, be taken seriously? Just take one look at his website and you see that he posts every post here (I guess he has it set up to copy over every post here to that site) and it's under "anti-science news". Then, he has forums where they have disgusting stuff like this:
Tard Awards Official Uncommonly Dense Discussion Thread
And this sort of civil and oh-so-classy material:
1) Professional tards (Dimbski, Behe, Wells, Fuller, etc) 2) Lay tards (Denyse, dave tard, joel tard, and other ordinary tardettes from UD)
If this guy is a professor- let us know, so we can make sure to not send our kids to that school! Just as I'd urge my kids to not attend the school where hate-filled PZ teaches. No bias at all. None. Nope. Thank goodness for unbiased scientists like Elsberry. (what a joke). Finally- is it just me or do these sites like the one above and the other who link to it and from it (pz, pt, and others) seem to be run mainly by atheists, commented on by atheists, etc? If an alien were to land on earth tomorrow to read Elsberry's site or the sites he links to- that alien would almost surely conclude that darwinism=atheism. I don't think I'm imagining things, but it seems like these sites are all too ready to attack religion, religious people, etc. And the supporters of these sites seem to be very anti-religious for the most part. Just from browsing comments, I'd make the guess that atheism runs about 85% at these sites. My point with this- it seems that darwinism, in the minds of a large number of people, DOES equal atheism. The Dawkins quote comes to mind right away. An intellectually fulfilled atheist, indeed. I've a feeling that there's an anti-theistic bias running through mostof these sites, which I think will only make people further solid in their belief that darwinism and theism are the great friends so many try to claim.JasonTheGreek
September 12, 2006
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Come to think of it- I don't know of a single scientific theory that claims to explain EVERYTHING outside of darwinian evolution. I can't think of any branch of science that thinks their particular branch can explain everything or even nearly everything.JasonTheGreek
September 12, 2006
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Actually, I'd say that no hypothesis could possibly explain everything and that even trying to explain everything means that there's a fundamental flaw in the hypothesis. The theory of evolution- I'd think most people use this to describe the general idea that life has evolved over time. You could probably throw in common descent for most people who would say they believe ToE explains all of life. Darwinism would be ToE but with the stipulation that all of life was the result of accidental events that took place in DNA and that they stuck around for a survival benefit. Also- that we can explain everything in life by pointing to it's supposed survival benefit and its benefit in helping reproduction. I still wonder about the hypothetical situation. If all the evidence pointed 100% conclusively to "all in biology was designed" what your proposed plan on scientific pursuit would be. What would your overall hypothesis be besides "this and this were designed by some designing agent at some time."JasonTheGreek
September 12, 2006
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"Just because the theory of evolution (again, we have to point out that ID takes issue with Darwinian evolution, not “ToE” in general as you imply) makes a hypothesis on how all the life we see on earth came to be doesn’t mean it’s actually how life came to be. It’s great to have a hypothesis and try to explain everything with it, but if it’s wrong, then what?" Then you rework the hypothesis until it DOES explain everything. Good hypotheses do that. Or, you could scrap it all and start with a fresh hypothesis. It seems that everyone here is ready to take the second choice, but without a fresh hypothesis to work with yet, it's a bit premature. Unfortunately the hypothesis of "all biology was designed" isn't testable. By the way, I would like to hear your distinctions between the ToE and "Darwinian evolution".Strangelove
September 12, 2006
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But Fross- how would a system, without any instructions whatsoever, move into a different spot to perform a different task? There's no information there to tell any of these systems to do any of this. That seems to be a problem in my mind. Further- EVERYTHING in Darwinism is accidental. You have to provide convincing evidence that not only did certain parts of a system change function, change place, change their overall part of the whole, but you also have to provide evidence that this was all the result of a trillion accidental events. I know of no observational evidence to suggest that any accidental event can causee any system to form itself, let alone parts of a system to move into different spots and take over different functions. Especially with no directions to do any of this and no information to kick off any of these events. If you told me that a automobile factory suddenly started to transform itself via accidental events, and that certain machinery started to switch spots to do different jobs, I'd call you crazy. Yet, NDE can claim that this happened in systems 1, 000 times more complex than any auto factory every imagined and it all happened via a bunch of accidental events with no foreman handing out instructions/no blueprints involved? I know of no observational evidence that co option has taken place, as you seem to be saying. There are claims that A and B probably switched off, changed areas/functions, but I don't think we've ever witnessed it.JasonTheGreek
September 12, 2006
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I don't get that complaint. If something was designed and did not evolve (or that it did not evolve via RANDOM MUTATIONS and SELECTION)- what else do you propose? Let's say that all of life was designed. Every bit of it from front to back. Let's argue the evidence was behind that. Where would that leave you? Without knowing the designer, what could say you? Well, there's much that has been said- Dembski has how many books 3? 4? Behe's book. Others on the market- I have a feeling it's not 300 pages of "something was designed at some time by some agent, end of story." Let's argue that the evidence is behind the idea that EVERYTHING biological was designed. It was so clear that no one ever argued differently. Now, what explanation would you provide if that were the case? I have a feeling that you'd have to live with the limits of knowledge. There are limits to all knowledge. No one will ever know everything, nor even half of everything. If all the evidence was behind "all of biology was designed"- but we didn't know who did the designing, my bet is that you would live with that and not demand more. Just because the theory of evolution (again, we have to point out that ID takes issue with Darwinian evolution, not "ToE" in general as you imply) makes a hypothesis on how all the life we see on earth came to be doesn't mean it's actually how life came to be. It's great to have a hypothesis and try to explain everything with it, but if it's wrong, then what? I don't see how saying "A and B were designed- we can find out all about how both of these work, we can see how they have changed in minor ways, etc...but other than that, we eventually hit a limit to what we can know further" I don't see why that's such a problem. We hypothesize the big bang created matter and space and time, but we can't go beyond that point. We eventually go back and hit a wall and our knowledge is limited by that wall. We don't complain in that situation, why complain that "A and B are designed" isn't enough. I'd really like to know, given my hypothetical above, what else you would say about the clearly designed elements of life. IF the evidence was 100% behind "all biology was designed"- I guess you think we'd all be in a heap of trouble, as it would mean there's absolutely no scientific pursuit to be had, right?JasonTheGreek
September 12, 2006
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"ID proponents do not pretend to explain everything, as do Darwinists (even though their proposed simplistic mechanisms are clearly inadequate and undemonstrated)." It's not that ID proponents do not pretend to explain everything, they don't try to explain anything. The ToE lends a hypothesis for how structures evolve. You don't like the hypothesis, fine. But you are unable to provide a better hypothesis than "something was designed at some time by some agent." A hypothesis that doesn't lend itself to any scientific pursuit.Strangelove
September 12, 2006
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Many biological features serve multiple purposes. Sometimes the primary purpose and the secondary purpose get switched out in terms of how benificial they are in a particular environment. By doing so, the path to co-option can and does take place. Some people here seem to think co-option happens in a linear switch off fashion as if one sub-system that does one thing suddenly gets more complex and becomes a newer more complex system that does something else. A good prediction is that any system that was coopted into another system would have an overlap in dual functionality. (for instance the flagellum precursor would serve both as a device for transport and secretion, assuming there's not another function bridging those two.)Fross
September 12, 2006
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Do you believe that cooption is impossible in principle, or merely unlikely? If the latter, how do you estimate its likelihood? Are you evaluating the cartoon version of cooption, or the real version? You failed to reference the rest of my argument concerning assembly mechanisms and instructions, so your depiction of my thesis is a cartoon version. Co-option is just a story that has no basis in evidence. Concerning unlikelihoods, see my essay here.GilDodgen
September 12, 2006
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Yes. Because, the theory that jaw bones moved slowly (for whatever reason) up inside the head to eventually become bones in the ear with brand new functions and complete systems that also evolved with this slow drift up isn't cartoonish at all. It's like claiming that a computer slowly, through some direction-less process evolved into a newer, faster running computer, with parts in the hard drive no longer needed, so they slowly work their way up to become parts of the new graphics system (without any direction to do any of this)..all the while, a new operating system was being formed to work with the new hardware, all of it from pieces of the old operating system that were no longer needed in point A so could be used in point B. We do have to remember one imporant thing- ALL of these co-option scenarios have two imporant features. 1. There are no directions from any outside source to do any of this co opting, evolving, etc. 2. All of the new functions are accidental remnants of accidental mutations. These mutations were left in the gene pool, because those who had the accidents, for whatever reason, lived longer and passed these accidents into their offspring. A trillion accidents "evolved" systems that are far more complex than any madmade system, and certain old parts were used as new parts with new functions, the underlying systems forming around them at the same time. Let's face it- it sounds fairly cartoonish no matter how you put it.JasonTheGreek
September 12, 2006
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In Gil's critique of cooption, he says: "Even if all the parts are available at the same time and in the same place, and are functionally compatible, one can’t just put them in a bag, shake them up, and have a motor fall out." This is a retread of Hoyle's "tornado in a junkyard" metaphor. Evolutionists do not promote this cartoon version of cooption. To an evolutionist, cooption proceeds more slowly and gradually. Existing structures are not completely dismantled, with the (possibly modified) parts being thrown back together in a completely novel (and random) way. Rather, the structure, like the parts themselves, is modified gradually. Later, he says: "Co-option is a demonstrably fantastic story made up out of whole cloth, with absolutely no basis in evidence. And it doesn’t withstand even the most trivial analytical scrutiny. There is not a shred of evidence that this process ever took place, or that it even could have taken place. Worst of all, it requires blind acceptance of the clearly miraculous." Gil, Cooption would require "blind acceptance of the miraculous" if it required many highly improbable things to happen at once. But this is true only of the cartoon version of cooption, not the one accepted by evolutionary biologists. Do you believe that cooption is impossible in principle, or merely unlikely? If the latter, how do you estimate its likelihood? Are you evaluating the cartoon version of cooption, or the real version?Karl Pfluger
September 12, 2006
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Perhaps it would be wise to detail how Intelligent Design Theory explains the eye? ID proponents do not pretend to explain everything, as do Darwinists (even though their proposed simplistic mechanisms are clearly inadequate and undemonstrated). ID proponents propose design as the best inference from the evidence, based on the known cause-and-effect structure of the world. Light-sensitive spots are found among protists, which have neither nerves nor muscles. Perhaps I should have been more explicit in noting that the standard Darwinian story suggests that the primary survival value of light sensitivity in the early evolution of the eye was derived from the ability to move away from or toward a light source. The fact that light sensitivity might have other useful purposes in other biological systems is irrelevant. Skin tans when exposed to light, but this provides no insight into how co-option could use this light sensitivity to produce vision.GilDodgen
September 12, 2006
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But I also noted that the starting point, a light-sensitive spot, would be of no use, without colossally complex mechanisms that could transform photon collisions into neurological signals that could result in meaningful muscle movements. Light-sensitive spots are found among protists, which have neither nerves nor muscles.Carlos
September 12, 2006
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Perhaps it would be wise to detail how Intelligent Design Theory explains the eye? You know, for comparison. What research avenues into eye development does IDT open up? I'm all ears.Strangelove
September 12, 2006
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