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Darwinism: Why it is philosophy, not science

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My most recent post talked about why Fr. George Coyne was asked to retire from the Vatican Observatory, after his vigorous campaign to oppose the Vatican’s efforts to distance itself from Darwinism (or “evolutionism,” as Cardinal Schoenborn likes to call it).

I shouldn’t have to point this out, but hey. Sidelining Fr. Coyne does not mean that the Vatican is weighing in on the interminable US school board wars.

Yes, the Pope used the term “progetto intelligente,” which is a functionally equivalent rendering of “intelligent design” in a homily. But only a naive person would imagine that the Catholic Church, which is thousands of years old, would stake all on current specific ideas of American biochemists, mathematicians, or astronomers.

Why? It need not. Philosopher David Stove has already demolished Darwinism by doing nothing more than unpacking what neo-Darwinists really expect us to believe, to help them preserve their theory.

And if you really believe all that the Darwinists wish, you had better ask a solicitous friend to answer the door for you whenever you see two frumpy people approaching your house, armed with tracts … .

I expect ID ideas to come thick and fast in the next few decades, and it certainly won’t be the job of the Catholic Church to keep up with, let alone pass judgment on, all of them. The main thing the Church seems to want to get across is that “evolutionism” (Darwinism) fails to account for human life in the present day, which happens to be true.

A given ID hypothesis may turn out to be well or poorly supported. That, in a nutshell, is the science game. But an ancient institution like the Catholic Church can well afford to wait and see what happens, as Darwinism self-destructs.

Of course the universe and life forms show evidence of intelligent design! It is a measure of the sheer stunnedness of a materialist culture that such a proposition would even be controversial. Or that academics should be obsessing about why the American public doesn’t believe in Darwinist materialism. Well, primarily because Americans enjoy the unique and enviable freedom to say that they don’t believe nonsense. I hope the freedom spreads. Lots of places could sure use it right now.

Meanwhile, I was recently involved in a somewhat heated private discussion about whether Darwinism can be held in a purely “scientific” way, devoid of the philosophy that usually animates its most fervent promoters.

Well, maybe. And maybe I can wake up my old cat and learn him to play the fiddle, and then we can all have a dance …

From everything I can see, 150 years later, Darwinism is still the creation story of materialism. That is the real reason for its persistence.

Physics has got on fine in the last century without a Grand Unified Theory, and biology could too. But materialism, unlike biology, needs a creation story in order to function as a religion – hence the value of Darwinism.

In the private debate noted above, I discovered that philosophers who argue for fine distinctions between Darwinism as a theory in science and Darwinism as a philosophy have rarely actually encountered serious Darwinists in their native state. The Thumbsmen are a case in point , and a piece of work, too (scroll down). But the philosophers are unlikely to go out and discover that for themselves.

Essentially, no Darwinist has any motive whatever to clear up the confusion between Darwinism as a theory about how species develop and Darwinism as a philosophy. The confusion is precisely what maintains Darwinism’s social power.

The last thing the Darwinists want is to see Darwinism evaluated on its own merits as a strictly defined theory of the origin of species (with such issues as origin of life and human consciousness off the table because Darwinism is probably inapplicable to them). You may as well expect communists to accept an objective evaluation of the performance of Marxist economics!

To anyone who doubts this, I have three-word suggestion: Google “evolutionary psychology.”

You could sink a canal barge with all the nonsense that has been talked about cave guys and gals, as a speculative explanation for the life around us. Guarantee: You will wake up in the morning, and the sun is shining and all that is still nonsense.

Indeed, Darwinists will stoop a long, long way in their efforts to prevent an objective evaluation. I am reminded of a sentence from journalist Michael Powell’s masterly Washington Post piece on Richard Sternberg:

Sternberg was advised not to attend. ‘I was told that feelings were running so high, they could not guarantee me that they could keep order,’ Sternberg said.

Oh yes? Indeed. And yet I was informed by certain sniffy philosophers that my distrust of a point of view on account of the behaviour of those who hold is a “genetic fallacy.”

I want to say here and now that I do not believe in the genetic fallacy in any systematic way.

Some points of view are only held by persons of poor character.

The eminent Darwinists who can no more be trusted to keep order than the guys in the Court Services van that shuttles between the jailhouse and the courthouse are a possible case in point ….

Here’s another interesting “Darwinism” item: University of Washington psychology professor and Darwinist David P. Barash recently looked forward enthusiastically to the day when “thanks to advances in reproductive technology, there will be hybrids, or some other mixed human-animal genetic composite, in our future.”

Barash objects to drawing a line between humans and other life forms: “It is a line that exists only in the minds of those who proclaim that the human species, unlike all others, possesses a spark of the divine and that we therefore stand outside nature.”

There, you see. It is as plain as daylight. Barash is NOT making a secret of his aim to denigrate humans and there is NO big philosophical conundrum. If you can read a newspaper, you an understand what he is saying.

Barash’s point of view is NOT the inevitable outcome of any reasonable interpretation of science, it is merely the outcome of radical materialism.

I know of no serious proposition to separate that sort of thing from the teaching of Darwinism in tax-supported schools. And that is the main reason why there is an intelligent design controversy in the public at large.

Comments
Carlos: "But as things stand now, they are about as testable as string theory. And string theory isn’t physics; it’s metaphysics." The association with metaphysics is only weakly made. These tentative assertions are more properly called theoretical speculation. The intent of both string theory and theories of abiogenesis is to eventually find a valid explanation and empirically predictive theory.Zachriel
August 31, 2006
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Flippantly talking about priests molesting altar boys is over the top, John. Yer outta here. Again.DaveScot
August 30, 2006
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Richard Dawkins is either congenitally deranged or was molested as an altar boy by an Anglican priest. I can conceive of no other explanations for his writings, each book more bizarre than its predecessor. God only knows what he will come up with next. I shudder to think. It is hard to believe isn't it? "Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics and it stems from the same source...They are creatures that can't hear the music of the spheres." Alice Calaprice, The New Quotable Einstein, page 204 "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
August 30, 2006
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Since DaveScot denies supernatural intervention at any level, I take it he is a Darwinist? How does he otherwise account for the origin or origins of life and its subsequent evolution? Those are questions that I feel DaveScot should be willing to answer. But will he? Somehow I doubt it. We will soon see unless of course this message never appears. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
August 30, 2006
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Now that Darwinism is finally defunct, we might start teaching a prescribed evolution, since obviously there is no other viable alternative. Davison, J.A. A prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis. Rivista di Biologia 98: 155-166, 2005. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
August 30, 2006
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Regarding abiogenesis: The "RNA world" hypothesis has been severely criticized, but it's not yet evident (to me, at least) that there is no good response to these criticisms. For example, I've recently read "The two ages of the RNA world and the transition to the DNA world: a story of viruses and cells" (Forterre, Patrick. Biochemie 87 (2005), 793-803). The story unfolded there is, so far as I can tell, plausible and coherent. But is it testable? Not so far as can tell. Did live actually arise that way? I don't know, and I'd be suspicious of anyone who thought they did know. If you don't care for the RNA world scenarios, then maybe you'd like to visit the debate between the replication-first and the metabolism-first schools. And I'd like to mention my favorite proposal, if for nothing else than sheer wackiness -- A. G. Cairns-Smith's proposal that the first organisms may have been clay crystals. Could the first organisms have been clay crystals? Sure, why not? Were they? Who knows -- and who could know? None of these scenarios are immune to criticism, and all of them have something strangely compelling about them. But as things stand now, they are about as testable as string theory. And string theory isn't physics; it's metaphysics. (And I never metaphysics I didn't like.)Carlos
August 30, 2006
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DaveScot, You raise an excellent point -- I'd gone against my own sage advice that one shouldn't prescribe a priori limits to what can be discovered by some future science. Perhaps some science yet to come can identify the designer. But nothing in contemporary ID theory allows us to do so, and that means that the catch-22 I presented above remains a problem for contemporary ID theory -- either it gives us what we want theologically, in which case it goes beyond what can be established scientifically -- or it remains within the limits of science alone, in which case it doesn't deliver on theology. Another way of getting at the same problem is by pointing out that intelligent design theory doesn't give us what Paley's argument from design gave us -- an a posteriori justification for identifying the designer as the Biblical God.Carlos
August 30, 2006
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Why can't the designer be known by scientific means? It's beyond the scope of intelligent design to identify a designer - ID is design detection not designer characterization. It doesn't follow that science can never discover a designer. To put it analogously, it's beyond the scope of biology to identify the source of matter in the universe. It doesn't follow that science can never discover the source of matter in the universe. ID critics seem to think that unless ID can identify the designer it's not science. That's incorrect. It's simply outside the scope of ID. Of course ID critics will never accept that because it blows the false dichotomy strategy that you outlined. Straw men with "ID" tatooed on their foreheads are legion.DaveScot
August 30, 2006
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(59) Theistic evolution as it has been explained to me by its advocates, is the belief that there is a God, generally even an omnipotent and omniscient one, but that science can never discover any evidence that points to said existence of God or her Mind underpinning this universe. Interesting. I wonder if theistic evolution might be cashed out as follows: (a) scientific procedures -- observation, experiment, and inference -- indicate to us a world produced through contingency and randomness; nevertheless (b) we are rationally entitled to believe that the world is more than what is empirically revealed to us, because (c) science does not have exclusive access to truth. As I said before, atheist evolutionists (e.g. Dennett, Dawkins) deny (c); they insist that only science can provide us with access to truth (i.e. with knowledge). (Notice that (a)-(c) are compatible with more than just theistic evolution. I agree with (a) through (c), but I wouldn't consider myself a theistic evolutionist. I don't want to reconcile science and faith; I want to preserve and uphold the antinomy of science and faith.) It seems to me that intelligent design theorists also deny (c). They want to demonstrate, through stricly scientific means, that there was an intelligent designer of some kind. But that's where the science presumably stops, and it's then up the individual to decide if she or she thinks that the intelligent designer was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or Vishnu, or an advanced alien race. Here's the catch, then: intelligent design is not going to provide us with an alternative to fideism, precisely because intelligent design theory cannot identify the designer. That's where faith has to step up to the plate. So the fideist move is only pushed further out, not refuted. Or, put another way, intelligent design is caught in a catch-22: it can either assert that the designer is God or a god -- in which case ID cannot be taught in public school science classrooms without violating Edwards v. Aguillard -- or it can preserve its scientific credibility, assert that the identity of the designer cannot be known by scientific means, in which case fideism is not refuted, but only postponed.Carlos
August 30, 2006
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Oh yeah, I forgot that science calls upon miracles to explain things. Abiogenesis is impossible NOW but the reason is because miracles no longer happen. That some strong science you got there, John. I'm envious.DaveScot
August 30, 2006
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Of course abiogenesis is impossible NOW. That it must have occurred an unknown number of times is undeniable. The origin and subsequent evolution of life is a miracle and miracles have a nasty way of taking place against all odds any number of times. That is why chance had absolutely nothing to do with either ontogeny or phylogeny. That is why it is inconceivable that any thinking person could ever either be a Darwinian or one to deny one or more supernatural Creators. In that sense every rational human must be a creationist of some sort. "When little is known with certainty, every man is an expert." John A. Davison "Men are most apt to believe what they least understand." Montaigne "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
August 30, 2006
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My conviction that evolution is finished applies only to the organic component. Technical evolution is an entirely different matter. I feel we are reaching the limits of that as well as we are now at the molecular level. Just as all other ages terminated, I believe the Age of Technology will as well. Of course I may be wrong. The important thing is to stop destroying the earth if we expect to have the necessary time to be able to make much further progress. I repeat Robert Leakey's final words in The Sixth Extinction. "For the sixth extinction, however, we do know the culprit. We are." I hope that will be allowed to stand without further comment. It is after all only the judgement of a distinguished paleontologist with whom this investigator happens to agree. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
August 30, 2006
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DaveScot: "All species appear to exhibit the ability to quickly (on evolutionary timescales) vary scale and cosmetics to best suit the environment." Almost everyone would agree that the broad morphological changes in dogs and cats represent significant evolutionary change. Specific mutations can be determined for many recent changes. There is a gradation of sterility between species; there is no species barrier. And there is strong evidence of common descent in the succession of fossils, in the nested hierarchy of physical forms, and in the recently discovered nested hierarchy of genomes.Zachriel
August 30, 2006
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Alan I hadn't yet read your comment in the other thread. When I did I addressed it there - at least on the snake. The accumulation of changes in scale and cosmetics does not add up to evolution of novel biological features. The Chihuahua and the St. Bernard are seperated by great gulfs in scale and cosmetics yet there isn't a novel difference between them and they remain the same species. The Chuhuahua and the Mexican Hairless Cat are remarkably alike in scale and cosmetics. The difference between them is a retractible claw on the cat which is not a difference in scale or cosmetics. They are not the same species. Similarly, a snake with a larger or smaller head does not a new species make. All species appear to exhibit the ability to quickly (on evolutionary timescales) vary scale and cosmetics to best suit the environment. On the tube worm. I don't see any reason why deep-sea vents would be an unforseeable environment unique to the earth. Presumably a front-loaded design would include in its toolbox all requisite components for living in a wide variety of environments likely to be encountered. A Humvee comes with a snorkel on it regardless of whether its owner plans on driving it through water deep enough to submerge the engine or not. It was designed to handle that situation. The tube worm could simply be exploiting design features not needed unless that particular environment is encountered.DaveScot
August 30, 2006
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Alan I’m afraid you’ll have to do better than this: “Cane-toad-eating snakes?” “Tube-worms at deep-sea vents?” I have no bloody idea what point you meant to make from these cryptic incomplete sentences. I was repeating points from this comment in another thread which I assumed you had read as you responded to it. That thread is closed at the moment. Several species of Australian snake have adapted smaller head size, as they are thus prevented from attempting to predate the recently introduced poisonous cane toad. This example of selection has taken place over only a few decades. Evolution is merely accumulation over time of such changes. The giant tube worm, Riftia pachyptila, is supremely adapted, along with its symbiotic bacteria, to its environment at deep sea vents, and could exist nowhere else on earth. How can front-loading explain how this worm was designed and arrived at its only possible niche on the planet?Alan Fox
August 30, 2006
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Theistic evolution is incompatible with the existence of God?? Huh? Ho"w does that work?" Theistic evolution as it has been explained to me by its advocates, is the belief that there is a God, generally even an omnipotent and omniscient one, but that science can never discover any evidence that points to said existence of God or her Mind underpinning this universe. So that means our universe looks identical to an unplanned and accidental one. But if there is a God, then there is not and could not be an accidental universe, there being nothing but this one. If there is a God, an accidental universe is a nonpossibility in every way, including to the imagination. Therefore we cannot possibly say that the universe appears undesigned. That would require that there be some other sort of universe with which to compare.avocationist
August 29, 2006
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The error the Darwinians continue to perpetuate is the assumption that evolution had an external cause. Such a cause has never been found because it does not and never did exist. Does such an external cause operate in ontogeny? No matter how you stimulate an egg, it can do only one thing which is to begin development. No matter how you stimulate a muscle cell it can only contract, a nerve cell conduct, a gland cell secrete, etc, etc. The environment can only stimulate and release an internal potential, whether it be in ontogeny, phylogeny or physiology. It explains why when you are hit on the head you see stars and hear thunder afterwards. In physiology it is called The Law of Specific Nerve Energies. It has all been “prescribed” don’t you know. Furthermore, the only role for allelic mutation, sexual reproduction and natural selection WAS and STILL IS to prevent evolution, bring it to a halt, and promote extinction, indispensable features for evolution to have ever occurred. How wrong can the Darwinian pipe dream possibly be? Have some more crack cocaine and pass the pipe I say! “Darwinians of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your natural selection.” after Karl Marx “Marx, Darwin and Freud are the three most crashing bores in the Western World.” William Golding There is not a shred of evidence that any contemporary organism will ever be able to become very different from what it is right now. The vast majority and perhaps all are doomed, as were their predecessors, to ultimate extinction. “Extinction is to the species what the death of the individual is to each member of that species.” John A. Davison It is all over. Get used to it. I have and published as much thirteen years ago. “Evolution as a self-limiting process.” Rivista di Biologia 91: 199-220, 1993, and again more recently. “Is evolution finished?” Rivista di Biologia 97: 111-116, 2004. Of course you must understand that I, like my invaluable sources, simply do not now and never have existed. The “establishment” ruled as it still is by “prescribed” atheists cannot afford to let that happen. Nevertheless - “Meine Zeit wird schon kommen!” Gregor Mendel A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable.” John A. Davison Comment by John A. Davison — August 29, 2006 @ 4:23 pm
John, lest you again accuse me of having no motive but to discredit you I want to make it clear that I agree with every bit of the above comment you made. It is profoundly insightful. But just because I agree with that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with everything you say. I would also like to add my belief that humans are still capable of evolving through the use of intellect and technology such as recombinant DNA. I agree that prescribed organic evolution has terminated and that we are the final product of it. Where organic evolution ends technological evolution begins. That has been prescribed too.DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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I am not at all certain as you are that “intelligent agents who can tinker with DNA for their own purposes exist in the universe. Does intelligent agents who can tinker with DNA for their own purposes not describe the people employed in the field of genetic engineering? Don't make me throw a genetically engineered rotten tomato at you. I'd have to wait a long time for it to rot as its DNA was modified to give it a longer shelf life. So which part of genetic engineering are you uncertain about - all of it or some specific aspect?DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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No, abiogenesis has not been demonstrated as possible. We have never observed anything but biogenesis. Maybe life has been a part of the universe since its beginning. Maybe life preceded the universe we observe today. Whatever the case, we have never, ever observed anything other than life coming from life (biogenesis). Abiogenesis is pure axiomatic presumption without a shred of supporting evidence.DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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Abiogenesis most certainly WAS possible and it DID occur or we wouldn't be here would we? The only issue is how many times and where did it occur, and how many Creators were involved. I am betting on at least two Creators, one malevolent, the other benevolent. It makes the world much easier for me to understand. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
August 29, 2006
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DaveScot I am not at all certain as you are that "intelligent agents who can tinker with DNA for their own purposes exist in the universe." There is neither any evidence for them nor need for them in the postulates of the PEH. All that is required is a long past existence of one or more intelligences far beyond our power to comprehend. Pierre Grasse felt as I do. "Let us not invoke God in realities in which He NO LONGER HAS TO INTERVENE. The single absolute act of creation was enough for Him. Evolution of Living Organisms, page 166. his emphasis. I would only add that I see no necessity for a single act of creation and much evidence against it. Monophyleticism is basically a Darwinian, chance dependent idea anyway which means I don't give it much credence. The evidence for that will be presented in a subsequent installment of the Manifesto if that ever occurs. There are sound reasons to favor several independent origins of life. Whether or not that is the case is still not resolved but there is sure no evidence for any recent "tinkering." Life in all its manifestations is miraculous and a dozen miracles are neither more nor less miraculous than one. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
August 29, 2006
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Alan I'm afraid you'll have to do better than this: "Cane-toad-eating snakes?" "Tube-worms at deep-sea vents?" I have no bloody idea what point you meant to make from these cryptic incomplete sentences. "Are they called humans? Or do you have evidence of extra-terrestrials?" They are called humans and they are proof positive that intelligent agents who can tinker with DNA for their own purposes exist in the universe. Is there some part of that you don't understand? The second part of the point was that there is no evidence at all that abiogenesis is even possible.DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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Ofro I don't know where you got the information on DNA vs. RNA stability but it's wrong. http://www.mun.ca/biochem/courses/3107/Topics/DNA_properties.htmlDaveScot
August 29, 2006
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The error the Darwinians continue to perpetuate is the assumption that evolution had an external cause. Such a cause has never been found because it does not and never did exist. Does such an external cause operate in ontogeny? No matter how you stimulate an egg, it can do only one thing which is to begin development. No matter how you stimulate a muscle cell it can only contract, a nerve cell conduct, a gland cell secrete, etc, etc. The environment can only stimulate and release an internal potential, whether it be in ontogeny, phylogeny or physiology. It explains why when you are hit on the head you see stars and hear thunder afterwards. In physiology it is called The Law of Specific Nerve Energies. It has all been "prescribed" don't you know. Furthermore, the only role for allelic mutation, sexual reproduction and natural selection WAS and STILL IS to prevent evolution, bring it to a halt, and promote extinction, indispensable features for evolution to have ever occurred. How wrong can the Darwinian pipe dream possibly be? Have some more crack cocaine and pass the pipe I say! "Darwinians of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your natural selection." after Karl Marx "Marx, Darwin and Freud are the three most crashing bores in the Western World." William Golding There is not a shred of evidence that any contemporary organism will ever be able to become very different from what it is right now. The vast majority and perhaps all are doomed, as were their predecessors, to ultimate extinction. "Extinction is to the species what the death of the individual is to each member of that species." John A. Davison It is all over. Get used to it. I have and published as much thirteen years ago. "Evolution as a self-limiting process." Rivista di Biologia 91: 199-220, 1993, and again more recently. "Is evolution finished?" Rivista di Biologia 97: 111-116, 2004. Of course you must understand that I, like my invaluable sources, simply do not now and never have existed. The "establishment" ruled as it still is by "prescribed" atheists cannot afford to let that happen. Nevertheless - "Meine Zeit wird schon kommen!" Gregor Mendel A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
August 29, 2006
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The reason why RNA is “unstable” is primarily and above all the fact that all cells contain RNAse, an enzyme that specifically degrades only RNA but not DNA or protein. Thanks for the memory jog (It was thirty-six years ago, not thirty). Liver cells have RNAase in spades, and my tutor mentioned that was why it was difficult to obtain RNA from liver cells.Alan Fox
August 29, 2006
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In evolution we are dealing with a one-time event that is unpredictable, unrepeatable, unwitnessed, and undemonstrated. If evolution is still happening today it is happening too slowly to observe.
Cane-toad-eating snakes?
The plain fact of the matter is that a front-loaded evolution that followed a predetermined plan fits the observations better than chance evolution.
Tube-worms at deep-sea vents?
we already know that intelligent agents 1) exist in the universe and 2) can tinker with DNA to achieve desired ends.
Are they called humans? Or do you have evidence of extra-terrestrials?
Omne vivum ex ovo (every living thing comes from another living thing) which is the most well observed and unexcepted law in all of biology need not be broken to explain how the diversification of life on earth got started.
Descent with modification from a common ancestor is indeed the best explanation of how the diversity of life on earth arose.
The pattern of one cell unfolding in a prespecified manner into a complex network of dedicated, differentiated components in ontogenesis is elegantly repeated in phylogenesis.
Evo-devo is one of the most interesting and rapidly developing of the biological sciences. We have come a long way from Haeckel's drawings.
The next generation telescopes will be able to resolve and spectrographically analyze earth size planets in distant solar systems and our first intersteller spacecraft (Voyager 1) just recently exited the solar system. Did Darwin predict that?
I am pretty sure Darwin did not predict space travel, but why would it matter?Alan Fox
August 29, 2006
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A primer on the stability of RNA: Now let's be fair to poor ol' RNA. The reason why RNA is "unstable" is primarily and above all the fact that all cells contain RNAse, an enzyme that specifically degrades only RNA but not DNA or protein. It is one of the most rugged enzymes known; boiling won't destroy it all. A fingerprint contains RNAse. The saying is that if a fly lands in the right place in your container with RNA, that could well deposit enough RNAse to mess up your experiment. Where you don't find RNAse is in the "primordial soup" since it doesn't contain enzymes yet. So RNA is stable for the purpose of this discussion, regardless of whether RNA participated in the original formation of "life." Having said that, it is possible that RNA is chemically not quite as stable as DNA in the complete absence of enzymatic activity. But that is more of an academic issue than one relating to abiogenesis.ofro
August 29, 2006
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DaveScot: "that’s the scientific method and it doesn’t apply to forensic science." Um, that sentence appears self-contradictory. The methodology of forensic sciences is, well, the scientific method. The fundamental principle of forensics is that "every contact leaves a trace", and that we can use scientific methodology to investigate these traces. DaveScot: "In evolution we are dealing with a one-time event that is unpredictable, unrepeatable, unwitnessed, and undemonstrated." A one-time 'event' that spanned hundreds-of-millions of years. DaveScot: "If evolution is still happening today it is happening too slowly to observe." Evolution can be directly observed, from simple mutations to morphological adaptations, while common descent can be inferred from the nested hierarchy and the fossil succession.Zachriel
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"And the best way to scientifically show that something true that happened in the distant past is to use the hypothesis to make predicitons and advance scientific progress." No Chris, that's the scientific method and it doesn't apply to forensic science. In evolution we are dealing with a one-time event that is unpredictable, unrepeatable, unwitnessed, and undemonstrated. If evolution is still happening today it is happening too slowly to observe. So what we do in a forensic science is gather whatever evidence we can and then form a hypothesis that fits it. The plain fact of the matter is that a front-loaded evolution that followed a predetermined plan fits the observations better than chance evolution. And unlike abiogenesis which we haven't been able to demonstrate is possible, we already know that intelligent agents 1) exist in the universe and 2) can tinker with DNA to achieve desired ends. So we know design by intelligent agency is possible in the universe. We just don't when or who or what did the designing. But that's still more than we know about abiogenesis. From that point on a front-loaded evolution explains all observations as well as or better than anything else. There are no "mount improbables" to climb in the front loaded case. Omne vivum ex ovo (every living thing comes from another living thing) which is the most well observed and unexcepted law in all of biology need not be broken to explain how the diversification of life on earth got started. The pattern of one cell unfolding in a prespecified manner into a complex network of dedicated, differentiated components in ontogenesis is elegantly repeated in phylogenesis. Phylogenesis can continue the pattern of life by transporting seeds younger worlds where it can start all over again. Now THAT is elegant. And it's a prediction that is coming true even as we speak. The next generation telescopes will be able to resolve and spectrographically analyze earth size planets in distant solar systems and our first intersteller spacecraft (Voyager 1) just recently exited the solar system. Did Darwin predict that?DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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"Since when does the truth have to be useful to justify seeking it? Knowing if there is design in the universe that isn’t ours seems like a pretty important question to me. More important than anything at all in cosmology or astronomy. It bears on who we are, where we came from, and where we’re going." And the best way to scientifically show that something true that happened in the distant past is to use the hypothesis to make predicitons and advance scientific progress. "From what I have studied the case for biogenesis is closed." If you are saying that is is a proven fact that abiogenesis is impossible then I would say that is just your opinion. I have not seen anything that comes close to proving that. "In fact you are a well known evanglelical evolutionist who finds plenty of time to focus on spreading the word on numeorus forums and blogs that ID is a nonsensical creationist plot without any scientific credibility and indeed without any scientific goal i.e ID just a trojan horse for political and religious exploitative purposes." Im don't it was concieved as a trojan horse for political and religious exploitative purposes, although I do think that a great deal of people who support it use it that way. I have said on this blog and others that I think many ID supporters who are scientifically literate belive it is scientifically valid, otherwise why would i bother posting here? I don't think it currently has scientific credibility, but as I have said in this blog I certainly don't discount that it could have at some point. "You must live in a vaccum. I suggest you read the thread about the University of Virginia or google Richard Sternberg if you think scientists don’t give a damn." I know a lot of scientists give a damn about ID, what I said was most of them don't give a damn about religion one way or the other.Chris Hyland
August 29, 2006
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