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Dawkins, Myers, and what R.S.V.P. means

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R.S.V.P. is an abbreviation for the French “répondez s’il vous plaît” which means “please respond” and traditionally is appended on invitations so that the host knows who and how many guests to expect.

Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers are running around saying they weren’t “gate crashers” at a pre-screening of “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed”. But that’s exactly what they were. PZ Myers claims he went through the same process to get a reservation for himself and a number of guests as all the other guests by going here

Expelled – RSVP System

ADDENDA: 3/25 There is no way to get to the URL above from the main page www.getexpelled.com. The above is not a publicized address. The links from the main page all go to TOUR BUS events not movie screenings.

The sticking point is that Myers was never invited. Myers RSVP’d to an invitation he never received. He fooled the host by gaming the invitation/response system employed. The host wasn’t checking RSVPs against a list of invitations sent out but rather just assumed that any RSVP received was in response to an invitation sent out. One could possibly say this was due to Myers’ ignorance of what RSVP means but he seems to be “As Smart as a 5th Grader” so that’s not a credible excuse. The only other alternative is Myers’ purposely and knowingly deceived the host which of course means Myers is dishonest. THAT is credible.

One might blame how this was allowed to happen on the naivety of the producers in trusting that RSVPs would be received only from invited guests. Honest people don’t tend to think like thieves so it might not have occurred to them that RSVPs would be received under false pretenses. But that still doesn’t excuse Myers’ dishonesty.

Richard Dawkins isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed but even so it’s hard to believe he believed that Myers was an invited guest but the possibility exists that Myers duped him into believing he was a legitimate participant in the pre-screening so I’ll reserve judgement on Dawkins for the nonce in this one case.

The question remains as to why Myers was singled out of a crowd waiting to get in when a more notorious and easily recognized skunk at the garden party (Dawkins) was not. I’d guess it’s because Myers was vigorously exercising his anti-religious potty mouth loud enough to offend other guests and someone complained while the other members in Myers’ anti-Christ crusader party were exercising a modicum of discretion. That’s just my working theory and it could be wrong but I wouldn’t bet even money on it being wrong. Too bad Myers doesn’t have the stones to be honest about his indescretions. Real men ‘fess up when caught pulling sophomoric stunts but I guess Myers can’t play it down by saying something whimsical like “Sorry, the devil made me do it.” 😆

Comments
ov Your link is to the tour bus RSVP site. Those are NOT movie screenings. The global invitation was for the tour bus not for movie screenings.DaveScot
March 25, 2008
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Reread the comments above and ask yourself: if you had not made up your mind about this subject, would you like to be associated with people like you?-Allen MacNeill
Compared to what anti-ID sites say about IDists I would rather be associated with the people here. And there really isn't any comparison to what is posted here with the viritrol that is spewed on anti-ID sites. Do you like being associated with those people? I have read Sean Carroll- nothing but speculation. If science is done via imagination and speculation then you guys have it down pat. However there STILL isn't any way to objectively test that the transformations required are even possible. If you want people like me to shut up then start putting up.Joseph
March 25, 2008
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StephenB wrote (in #54): "I agree with that. Dr. MacNeill has given much of himself and I think everyone has benefited from it. I hope it is the same for him." Indeed, as I often tell my correspondent Hannah Maxson (currently caring for homeless orphans in Ulaan Baator, Mongolia), one reaches clarity not by discussing such things with people who agree with you, but rather with people who most vehemently disagree with you. Darwin himself set the example in this, saying that he spent little time corresponding with people who agreed with him, concentrating instead on the arguments of those who disagreed with him. This is precisely the attitude of "universal skepticism" that I have advocated as the heart and soul of science. We are never in greater danger of error than when we believe that we know the Truth about something, and only discuss it with people who agree with us.Allen_MacNeill
March 25, 2008
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Allen, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” What about those of us who reject the concept of original sin?Clarence
March 25, 2008
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Um, did anyone notice that the "private" RSVP link is now publicly posted right here in an article declaring how private it is supposed to be? To wit, from the ADDENDA "The above is not a publicized address." Well, it is now, if not before.thauma
March 25, 2008
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DaveScot: Here's another one: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Have I been throwing stones here?Allen_MacNeill
March 25, 2008
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DaveScot, No, Todd is correct. You can navigate to the rsvp site from the public getexpelled.com site. (I'll add the links in, step by step.) (1) Click his original link - getexpelled.com (2) From there Click the Events and Tours link on the bottom left. (3) On that page, the first paragraph (which Todd originally cited above) has a link "Click here to RSVP now" Your addenda above is mistaken, and thus your argument about the selectivity of invitation is mistaken. Anyone interested could have accessed that from the publicly advertised website - a church group, my girlfriend, PZ Myers, etc. It is open to anyone interested enough to click the links. As Myers stated he did from the start. I'm not understanding how this could even be controversial. It took me less than 30 seconds to find the RSVP site a minute ago. Honestly, I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but its about principle. I'm sorry - folks who are pulling the "not invited" argument are not only (easily) demonstrably wrong, but frankly come off as rather disingenuous. The ID camp is often accused of disingenuousness to advance an unpopular agenda. That migh be an unfair generalization, but this affair has certainly reinforced that, at least in my mind.ov_
March 25, 2008
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Tom Riddle wrote (in #50) about Michael Behe's treatment at a dinner at West Campus: Unfortunately, I was not present at this dinner, and so shall have to take your work for it. However, I was present at Will Provine's evolution class (in fact, I have participated in that course as one of the lecturers for over a decade). What happened at that lecture bore absolutely no similarity to what you describe. On the contrary, our students attacked Behe's ideas, but gave him a hearty round of applause at the end of his lecture. Perhaps it was (and is) Will Provine's influence that convinced our students to treat him (and Hannah Maxson, John Sanford, Phillip Johnson, and other IDers) as people to be treated with respect, rather than representatives of a viewpoint which one attacks with as much vigor as one can muster. Tom also asked: "How you could say that when you know the kinds the things that Myers and others say." Once again, the fact that one's opponents in an intellectual debate may stoop to ad hominem arguments and personal attacks cannot in any way justify counterattacking in the same way. On the contrary (and as you pointed out), if one adheres always to the tradition of "respect the person/attack his ideas", one can claim the moral high ground as well as defending one's ideas to the best of one's ability. As a person who was long trained in two different religious traditions (Quakerism and Zen Buddhism), I thought that this attitude of mutual respect and humility was what precisely what those traditions were all about.Allen_MacNeill
March 25, 2008
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Todd Nice try but you can't get to the movie screening RSVP site from the main page anywhere I found. All the links go to stuff about the tour bus stops. Gerry “Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds discuss ideas.” And insecure minds are the only ones that care about the distinctions. It slips my mind which volume of "The Great Books of the Western World" the quote about small, medium, and jumbo brains came from. Obviously you have a set handy so could help me out there. Allen: Most of us have been to the Pharyngula, Panda’s Thumb, and others on your side of the fence. That speaks volumes about the kind of people most of YOU are and it’s quite a contrast to what you see here. Obviously not a good contrast for your side. I suggest you heed what my mother taught me: People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Err... come to think of it that wasn't my mom. It was my immediate superior in the Marine Corps 30 years ago who said that. He moonlighted as a bartender and, like all great bartenders, had short bits of good advice handy for any situation. DaveScot
March 25, 2008
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-----Eric B on Allen MacNeill: "On the rest of your main point in this thread, very well said. You set an example in word and in deed." Yes, I agree with that. Dr. MacNeill has given much of himself and I think everyone has benefited from it. I hope it is the same for him.StephenB
March 24, 2008
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Allen MacNeil said: "I was moderating (and even banning) more commentators from “my side” than she was for hers, an empirical fact about which I am still somewhat ashamed. " Allen, I appreciate your integrity in this. But, I thought your comments earlier like: "if you had not made up your mind about this subject, would you like to be associated with people like you?" were just totally over-the-top. How you could say that when you know the kinds the things that Myers and others say. Your statement appears disengenuous. And, I sincerely do respect you for the moderation that you said you provided, but would respectfully disagree with what you say here: "However, in defense of “real” EBers, most of the offenders that I moderated (and all of the ones I banned) were not practicing evolutionary biologists. Rather, they were partisans for the EB side with little or no real understanding of the science of evolutionary biology." I believe it was 2006 when Mike Behe came to speak in one of the new dining halls on West Campus. I'm not sure if you were there, but many who were could testify that he was treated so disrespectfully. And not in a minor way. I was there, and I saw people's voices literally crack from screaming at Mike. These were the EB's from your department because they identified themselves as such. I haven't heard a person's voice crack from screaming since middle school. Others shouted obsenities at him during their questions, and I remember one person in particular screaming (not raising their voice, but once again screaming in a shrill voice), that he needed to stop speaking so she could provide a full rebuttal ("you have already had 45 minutes to speak, now its my turn" she said). Oh yeah, and this was the one who turned to the rest of the audience, and in tears, while shouting at us, told us all we were uneducated and therefore were duped by Behe. In all the years I was at Cornell, and all the seminars I attended, I have never, ever witnessed such a cesspool. It was a total embarrassment to the institution. I would have much preferred to see them ask Mike hard questions, but rather, they went totally mental. To be fair, there were two very good questions from people in your Department, but everything else was totally unprofessional. I know some of the people were grad students, but again, what a disgrace it was. Especially since they affiliated themselves with the biological science departments. If there is anything you should be ashamed of, its how these folks represented themselves, your department (and others), and the University as a whole. Finally, you say: "No fundamentalist would ever say that." are you joking? seriously, are you joking? Look around Cornell, at the Christians who participate in these discussions. Look at the three largest Evangelical churches in Ithaca, Allen. I personally know each of the Pastor's of those churches, and have heard many, many sermons from each of them where they indicated that they were wrong about something they believed after many years. Some of those topics include things like age of earth, common descent, and other Christian hot-topics like the rapture, tithing principles, manifestations of spiritual gifts, etc., etc. If you stuck your nose into one of those churches you would see that it is quite common - and a pretty good example of humility. How many of the Christians on that campus came from 6-day creation backgrounds, and now state that those beliefs (to them at least) were not properly vetted out. And, they are man (or woman) enough to admit it. So, where do you get off saying: "No fundamentalist would ever say that." Right in your hometown they are saying things like that, and on a frequent basis. I think you may need to reconsider that statement.TomRiddle
March 24, 2008
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toc asked (in #43): "...have you posted similar admonishments on the other blogs also?" Yes, I have, and have been criticized for doing so be who were supposed to be on "my side." Indeed, if you are curious about this, please take a look at the posts and commentary threads at: http://evolutionanddesign.blogsome.com/ This blog was co-moderated by Hannah Maxson (founder of the Cornell IDEA Club) and me. Very early in that process we settled on an equitable solution to the problem of "unsportsmanlike behavior": she would moderate the comments of ID supporters ("IDers") and I would moderate the comments of evolution supporters ("EBers"). As I admitted to her at the time, I was moderating (and even banning) more commentators from "my side" than she was for hers, an empirical fact about which I am still somewhat ashamed. However, in defense of "real" EBers, most of the offenders that I moderated (and all of the ones I banned) were not practicing evolutionary biologists. Rather, they were partisans for the EB side with little or no real understanding of the science of evolutionary biology. Why can I say this with such confidence? Because in science (as in any intellectual endeavor) there should be no "partisans", nor any "true believers in the cause." On the contrary, the traditions of science require an attitude of unremitting skepticism, especially with regards to one's own favorite theories. Personal attacks and speculation unsupported by any attempt at empirical verification (such as those so liberally used in the post that heads this comment thread), have no place in science, nor in any intellectual endeavor. Are we not all. EBers and IDers alike, ultimately motivated by a sincere desire to understand as much about the nature of reality as we are capable of?Allen_MacNeill
March 24, 2008
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StephenB wrote (in #31): "Some of the most personal, and at other times, blatantly and inappropriately religious statements, come from anti-ID bloggers who like to visit here and pose as ID sympathizeers." I'm sorry, I admit that I should have known that.Allen_MacNeill
March 24, 2008
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Dr. MacNeill, Your comments are reasonable and right, I think. Belligerence is unbecoming and embarrassing. On the ID side of this debate, it probably stems from being cast aside and patently rejected from people like Dawkins, Meyers, and a host of other academics who wish to debunk any ideas not falling in line with their views (Lewontin had something to say about that). Indeed, it is analogous to insubordination in the corporate world. The recent books published by this group are offensive attacks on the alleged morons and dullards who haven't a clue about Science, and their position within it. Some comments posted on this blog are sophomoric, Comments I have read on Dawkins's site, Meyers' site, and also on "The Brights" are downright visceral and disgraceful. The internet has a similar effect on angry people as does the automobile interior on a busy interstate. The driver can express actual hatred toward someone who gets in his way without losing his teeth from the gesture, but in turn, he only harms and embarrasses himself. Readers on this blog should respond positively to your post. And I wonder, have you posted similar admonishments on the other blogs also?toc
March 24, 2008
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Todd Berkebile @ # 3: "The front page of the public website http://getexpelled.com/ has a link called “Events & Tours”....That certainly seems like a general invitation to the entire community to me." Mr.Berkebile, the link is in reference to Expelled tours, which are different from the screening events (and private at that) we have been discussing here.JPCollado
March 24, 2008
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Am I the only one to be embarrassed by this fiasco? PZ Myers, as I did, accepted an open invitation on the eXpelled website to attend a screening of the movie. The only 'gaming' was to read the website and follow instructions. Mathis has acknowledged that he ejected Myers because he wanted him to have to pay full price to see it, with no mention of him being disruptive and bothering anyone. The speculation and rumormongering going on here is an embarrassment to the ID movement and we should be ashamed. Whatever PZ Myers may stand for, he was a participant in the movie and quite reasonably wanted to see it. HE SHOULD HAVE RECEIVED A PERSONAL INVITATION FROM MATHIS, as should all the participants. Mathis behaved boorishly and should be called on by the ID community to take the high ground and act with common decency and politeness. He does the cause no good by this behaviour.Horace_Worblehat
March 24, 2008
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congregate: "Stuart Blessman doesn’t actually say that PZ Myers was the man he saw behaving badly." Oh, so there was another guy with Dawkins that got booted in addition to Myers? My, oh my. ACLU is going to have a field day. Who is this other 'Personality Type A' individual?JPCollado
March 24, 2008
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Another thing. About theatre management, or any other business setting. Since when is a contractor responsible for the establishment's employees (i.e., security personnel), to include their supervision, control and actions?JPCollado
March 24, 2008
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Stuart Blessman doesn't actually say that PZ Myers was the man he saw behaving badly.congregate
March 24, 2008
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I'll wait and see if Myers is preparing to sue the theatre for giving him the boot for no specific reason, 'cause we all know Myers' fondness of the judicial system. If he really was wronged, and he did everything right, legal recourse will show the light day.JPCollado
March 24, 2008
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DLH @ 32, Stuart Blessman's description of Myers' disruptive and rude behavior is consistent with Myers' offensive persona, thus confirming our original hunch for why he was shown the exit door. It's almost sad that Myers is so easy to read.JPCollado
March 24, 2008
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...hhmm...2001 space odyssey. Wasn't that actually about Intelligent Design...? From an atheist as well!Timothy V Reeves
March 24, 2008
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PannenbergOmega said.... Mr Reeves, “Or was it actually an ID stooge dressed up in a monkey suite to look like PZ in order to give him a bad name?” With all due respect, 1. This supposibly fits Myer’s “M.O.” 2. Do you really think the ID community would stoop that low? I don’t. No I suppose not. It probably helps to believe that one has decended from a common primate ancester before one is prepared to run around with bent back and knuckles dragging on the ground a la 2001 space odyssey. So it must have been PZ after all.Timothy V Reeves
March 24, 2008
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There are two links to expelled viewings. One is labeled "private screenings" http://rsvp.getexpelled.com/events/special/expelled Note the "special" in URL. Here is a google cache of the same URL: It seems clear there were special Private screenings of Expelled to which the RSVP system might have been gamed.Charles
March 24, 2008
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Nochange wrote: To get an invitation e-mail, you needed to sign up for e-mails on their website. I did it. I imagine PZ Meyers did it, too.
If he did, he should say so. But he hasn't. He simply discusses how he signed up and received a confirmation email (from an automated RSVP system).William Wallace
March 24, 2008
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Rather than speculate, how about some facts. Eyewitness Stuart Blessman reports:
I just happened to be standing directly in line behind Dawkins’ academic colleague. Management of the movie theatre saw a man apparently hustling and bothering several invited attendees, apparently trying to disrupt the viewing or sneak in. Management then approached the man, asked him if he had a ticket, and when he confirmed that he didn’t, they then escorted him off the premises. Nowhere was one of the film’s producers to be found, and the man certainly didn’t identify himself. If a producer had been nearby, it’s possible that he would have been admitted, but the theatre’s management didn’t want to take any chances.
''Richard Dawkins crashes the party at a screening of “Expelled”'' By JEFFREY OVERSTREET, ExpelledTheMovie.com March 20, 2008DLH
March 24, 2008
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-----Allen MacNeill: "Reread the comments above and ask yourself: if you had not made up your mind about this subject, would you like to be associated with people like you?" Some of the most personal, and at other times, blatantly and inappropriately religious statements, come from anti-ID bloggers who like to visit here and pose as ID sympathizeers.StephenB
March 24, 2008
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Not only is it a huge loss for you, but the tenor of the preceding comments speaks volumes about what kind of people most of you are. Let us grant for the moment that PZ Myers is not a gentleman when describing ID or discussing it. Does that mean that those supporting ID should be just as venal as he is? What kind of witness do you wish to present to the world? That you attack individuals using unsubstantiated hearsay, or that you conduct yourselves at all times as gentlemen who respect their opponents as people at the same time that you attack their ideas? When Will Provine and I invited John Sanford to our evolution course at Cornell, we did exactly that. John wrote us a very gentlemanly email in which he thanked us for our courtesy toward him and for the opportunity to let him make a presentation to our students (many of whom, BTW, attacked his ideas vigorously while treating him as a person worthy of respect). Reread the comments above and ask yourself: if you had not made up your mind about this subject, would you like to be associated with people like you? Allen_MacNeill
March 24, 2008
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Dictum of the day! If something is private, it cannot be public.JPCollado
March 24, 2008
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Obviously, the theme of this documentary touches upon an incendiary topic that has strong emotional ties to religion, politics, education, philosophy, etc., and unlike other movies, it is caught up on a social dynamic that is complex, unnerving, and on the verge of a breaking point. Therefore, any comparisons made with other movies don't really do it any justice.JPCollado
March 24, 2008
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