Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Dear Richard Dawkins – what is new in your book?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Dawkins’ new book is reviewed in the Economist.

How humans are related to chimpanzees—and to cheese mites and cherry trees too, Sep 3rd 2009, The Economist,

From the review there are no new arguments, just more of the same polemical rhetoric and the same tired old evidences. If this is the best RD can do then Darwinian evolution is clearly on its last legs.

Does Dawkins really appeal to the homology of skeletal plan which could be equally evidence of common design, or to the fossil record with all its out of place fossils including a Jurassic Beaver, Carboniferous dragonflies and Cambrian vertebrates.

Does Dawkins really retreat to the rhetoric and polemics of a schoolyard bully again by misrepresenting arguments and people’s positions?

The reviewer writes “Perhaps some evolution-deniers will read this book and be convinced. But even to pick it up they would have to ignore a determined campaign of misinformation: polemicists demanding that schools “teach the controversy” (there is none); books about “intelligent design” written by “creationist scientists” (a ragbag of nonentities, mostly engineers or chemists rather than biologists); untruths and ad hominem attacks (few [scientists] “accept that an amoeba can evolve into a human being, even one as flawed as Richard Dawkins,” wrote one Christian essayist recently, neatly combining both genres).”

If this is the level of debate then it is clearly not about science, but about a struggle for supremacy over control of the educational institutions and direction of society. Perhaps if Dawkins understood some of the new philosophy taking place in biology involving cooperation, epigenetics and lateral gene transfer, and not simple struggle for survival, he might be more willing to engage in a respectful and reasoned debate and dialogue.

One may wonder whether Dawkins’ position is looking more and more like one of those extinct Cretaceous dinosaurs that fill the British Natural History Museum.

Comments
"That’s what I believe, what exactly do ID folks believe" Here is something I wrote a year ago about what ID is about and no one has disputed it here. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/november-apologetics-conference-we-need-more-than-good-arguments/#comment-296129 If you consider dog breeding persuasive then you do not understand the debate. There are two theories of evolution, micro evolution and macro evolution. Micro evolution is well accepted and is not an issue but the mechanism for macro evolution has never been demonstrated and Darwin's ideas of gradualism, natural selection and competing for resources has not been showed to lead to macro evolutions. The issue is one of information and how it is built. Micro evolution essentially reshuffles the same deck of cards and gives you a new hand each time or the same information while macro evolution requires several new decks of cards with different characters on it.jerry
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
04:28 PM
4
04
28
PM
PDT
Andrew:
Whenever there is a claim for a gap in macro evolution, the rebuttal is ‘just give us more time and we’ll close it naturalistically.’
And they're still dawdling. C'mon, biologists! Let's see some ape-people! Some walking whales! Some genome comparisons! Some homologous genes for protein functions! They still haven't turned any up, and the gaps stay just the same size as always. It's pathetic.Lenoxus
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
04:16 PM
4
04
16
PM
PDT
Andrew, Do you believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old? If so, what evidence can you cite? I'm curious because you used the phrase "tired old evidences" in reference to Dawkin's arguments. For my part, I find selective breeding to be a highly compelling argument for evolution. Taken in conjunction with other lines of evidence (the vast age of the earth, patterns of diversity (biogeography), genetics, and the fossil record), I find no good reason to reject modern evolutionary theory (as I understand it as a lay person). It remains the very best explanation I've yet heard for the diversity of life on earth. That's what I believe, what exactly do ID folks believe? I read a lot here about what they don't believe but nobody seems to spell out exactly what they do believe.NormO
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
03:51 PM
3
03
51
PM
PDT
Andrew,
If this is the level of debate then it is clearly not about science, but about a struggle for supremacy over control of the educational institutions and direction of society.
You may have stated something here that you didn't really intend. Back 3 or 4 centuries, those with the greatest curiousity about the natural world could not have fathomed common ancestry between a lion and a dandelion. Increasingly, people became devoted to observing, gathering, measuring, comparing, documenting the forms of life and non-life (geology) on earth. Before Darwin was born, the notion of change of life forms over time -- deep time -- was commonplace among this cadre of the curious and well-studied. People became increasingly unhindered by preconceptions from ancient texts deemed of supernatural origin. Shortly after 1859, nearly everyone among this cadre accepted common descent. As the years roll by, the evidence only piles higher, not as part of a culture war, but as part of the advance of understanding (amplified profoundly by technology). While biological science still has many subtle puzzles to solve, common descent remains uncontroversial. It is made controversial by those in a struggle to regain a supremacy that was enjoyed for centuries and subsequently lost. You expose this with your next statement:
Perhaps if Dawkins understood some of the new philosophy taking place in biology involving cooperation, epigenetics and lateral gene transfer, and not simple struggle for survival, he might be more willing to engage in a respectful and reasoned debate and dialogue.
There's no indication you've read the book, yet you point to flaws in the author's understanding. Remarkably, you are doing this in response to statements by a reviewer.
If this is the best RD can do then Darwinian evolution is clearly on its last legs.
You are counting on the gullibility of your audience to buy into the wishful fiction that your opposition is comprised of a small number of prominent people. In fact, your opposition is a sturdy and robust body of knowledge with a hundred thousand protagonists.Neil Schipper
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
03:14 PM
3
03
14
PM
PDT
"Dog breeding is non-natural selection but it is selection on the same level as natural selection, that is, picking and choosing who wins and who loses as opposed to genetic manipulation." No one is arguing that artificial selection is not evolution but it is evolution in a trivial sense because it is micro evolution and not of any interest to anyone in the evolution debate. The debate is about macro evolution and dog breeding or artificial selection has no bearing on this. So to use it is an admission that one does not have anything of consequence or why not go to the real issue. They use it because it will appear to the uninformed that it is meaningful. For example, that you questioned it is indicative that you do not understand the issues. So use yourself as a prime example of who the target is and the type of argument that will appeal to the uninformed. It is a bogus argument but it works as your question shows No one is denying natural selection works or that changes are gradual or the environment affects evolution. They just do not have any demonstrated role in macro evolution or the origin of novel complex capabilities.jerry
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
03:12 PM
3
03
12
PM
PDT
It is natural selection the moment those cells begin dividing.Dustin
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
12:54 PM
12
12
54
PM
PDT
"The fact that Dawkins uses dog breeding as an example is another illustration of the admission of the Darwinists that the ID position is valid. It is not science but a rhetorical trick to influence the uninformed. The average person will say that is really interesting and nod their heads without seeing beyond the superficiality of the argument. The other trick they use is the religious one either overtly by calling ID people creationists or by invoking the bad design argument in some way." I guess I'm missing something. Dog breeding is non-natural selection but it is selection on the same level as natural selection, that is, picking and choosing who wins and who loses as opposed to genetic manipulation. Yeah? Sorry, I'm just trying to make sure I'm clear on the argument.ellazimm
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
12:50 PM
12
12
50
PM
PDT
Andrew,
yakky d – no one is claiming that, your goal seems so big as to make it unmissable, just like the claim for bunnies in the pre-Cambrian to dismiss evolution – but no one believes that.
But it's still a potential falsification of common descent of primates, as it is currently understood. It doesn't matter that most people think such a finding is unlikely. In fact, isn't it true that the Creation Science Movement organization, of which you are a prominent member, holds that Adam was created within the first six days of earth's existence? Do you share this view? If so, why wouldn't you expect to see rabbits or even humans for that matter in the 'Precambrian'? Just for the record, I've asked three times how you would falsify a hypothesis of common design, and haven't received an answer. I can only conclude (provisionally) that common design is unfalsifiable.yakky d
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
12:30 PM
12
12
30
PM
PDT
Andrew
ID people have an interest in finding what natural selection can do and what applied design can do.
And what can applied design do? Can it make a thing that uses a rotating wheel as a propulsion method? Why, yes it can. Can natural selection? No, not really! It seems NS cannot make the "jump" to allow a freely rotating wheel. So, if life is designed why don't we see it using things that could only have been designed?
As for ID Behe’s IC is a good place to start where there seems to be a move towards the development of regularities or laws of bio-mechanics, as is his ‘Edge’ book where he is seeking to find where the limits of design and evolution lie.
Ah, of course. IC. Behe has written his book now you know. He's no longer "seeking". He's sought. Where do the limits of design lie? If life is designed, it's knees, spines, combined eating and air tubes and other fun stuff indicate the designer was simply not very good at all. Where do the limits of evolution lie? Knees that work, air tubes that share space with food because nobody was there to point out that is a bad idea and nobody to point it out to anyway, spines because nobody said "don't do it that way" and so on.Blue Lotus
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
10:54 AM
10
10
54
AM
PDT
Andrew
Whenever there is a claim for a gap in macro evolution, the rebuttal is ‘just give us more time and we’ll close it naturalistically.’
It starts off all gap you know. Then those gaps are filled. Are being filled. Have been filled in many cases. What's your alternative to looking for a naturalistic answer? Not looking at all? If you do in fact look how do you go about doing that? Why are you not doing that already?
In other words it is not falsifiable.
That does not follow from your previous sentence.
It is ultimately belief.
Andrew, as you are a self admitted creationist I would imagine you know all about it. How old do you think the Earth is Andrew?Blue Lotus
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
10:49 AM
10
10
49
AM
PDT
yakky d - no one is claiming that, your goal seems so big as to make it unmissable, just like the claim for bunnies in the pre-Cambrian to dismiss evolution - but no one believes that. Whenever there is a claim for a gap in macro evolution, the rebuttal is 'just give us more time and we'll close it naturalistically.' In other words it is not falsifiable. Have you considered Goodson's second riddle of induction? What is it about properties that makes them projectable? It is ultimately belief.Andrew Sibley
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
10:26 AM
10
10
26
AM
PDT
Andrew,
yakky d – you have to ask a similar question if weighing inductive inferences. What evidence would count against macro-evolution? and then test both claims against each other.
Suppose someone were to find a number of fully modern human skeletons in various locations around the world, all of which dated to approximately 100 million years ago. That would certainly be grounds for rejecting common descent of primates. Again, what evidence would cause you to reject common design?yakky d
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
09:37 AM
9
09
37
AM
PDT
yakky d - you have to ask a similar question if weighing inductive inferences. What evidence would count against macro-evolution? and then test both claims against each other. ID people have an interest in finding what natural selection can do and what applied design can do. As for ID Behe's IC is a good place to start where there seems to be a move towards the development of regularities or laws of bio-mechanics, as is his 'Edge' book where he is seeking to find where the limits of design and evolution lie.Andrew Sibley
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
09:04 AM
9
09
04
AM
PDT
"Dawkins does discuss dog breeding (again) as an example of what selection pressure can achieve in a short period of time." The fact that Dawkins uses dog breeding as an example is another illustration of the admission of the Darwinists that the ID position is valid. It is not science but a rhetorical trick to influence the uninformed. The average person will say that is really interesting and nod their heads without seeing beyond the superficiality of the argument. The other trick they use is the religious one either overtly by calling ID people creationists or by invoking the bad design argument in some way. The argument for micro evolution instead of macro evolution is the basic bait and switch of the Darwinists. Which is why I say that none of them, Dawkins, Coyne, Sean Carroll, Ayala, Ken Miller, Henry Gee, Will Provine, Allen MacNeill, etc., any pro ID person here. and even Darwin himself never present evidence to back the macro evolution claim. It is always the bait and switch or the irrelevant or the odd instance of novelty or the religious argument. Where's the Beef? For those under 30 years of age read the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where's_the_beef%3F http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aISkVvi5iI8 I love the line "I don't think there's anybody there." That describes the Darwinists position exactly. There is no beef and no one is there.jerry
September 5, 2009
September
09
Sep
5
05
2009
06:44 AM
6
06
44
AM
PDT
Dawkins does discuss dog breeding (again) as an example of what selection pressure can achieve in a short period of time and then points out that natural selection can also achieve similar results albeit somewhat slower. Selection pressure, natural or intelligent, can create highly varied body forms; that doesn't seem very controversial to me.ellazimm
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
11:22 PM
11
11
22
PM
PDT
"What does the overall theory of ID say again?" That some things are best explained by design. Not all things or most things but some things.jerry
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
10:14 PM
10
10
14
PM
PDT
An unabashed pro ID commenter named Allen Factor has interdicted the ID point of view into the comments of the Economist article. http://www.economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14361755&mode=comment&intent=readBottom Go Allen.jerry
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
10:10 PM
10
10
10
PM
PDT
What does the overall theory of ID say again?
That all those things you mentioned happen in the way they do because someone wanted them to. Also, "evolution" doesn't bind those things because evolution has nothing to do with common descent, relatedness of organisms, genetic mutations, natural selection, or the combination of RM and NS producing this or that trait. "Evolution" is solely the denial of the design of a few biochemical structures, plus, I dunno, maybe birds and whales. That's why people here can keep railing against something called "evolution" without contradiction.Lenoxus
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
03:44 PM
3
03
44
PM
PDT
Yes, you are correct. The theory that explains, predicts, and binds biology, biochemistry, paleontology, anatomy, physiology, genetics, ecology, microbiology, botony, and developmental biology is about to be overturned and replaced with... ...with... ...the theory that...we can't explain complex biological structures... or... or... Hitler!...or.. or...something...wait... What does the overall theory of ID say again?SingBlueSilver
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
02:14 PM
2
02
14
PM
PDT
... mostly engineers or chemists rather than biologists ...
I like this. Recalling a famous say by Clemanceau, we could paraphrase into: "Biology is by fara a too serious argument to leave it in the hands of biologists ..."kairos
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
01:49 PM
1
01
49
PM
PDT
Andrew,
yakky d – design is a probabilistic inference to the best explanation, as are evolutionary explanations. The problem for biology is to determine which is the best explanation, sometimes the answer is clear, sometimes it isn’t. For those who like to think that science gives absolute answers such probabilistic solutions are not very satisfactory. But as a meteorologist I have to write weather forecasts on the basis of over 50 solutions. Uncertainty is a fact of scientific life, so all I can say is ‘deal with it.’
Thanks for the response. I have no problem with the statement that evolutionary explanations are often based on probabilistic inference. But I don't think that really addresses my question: What sorts of evidence would lead you to reject a hypothesis of common design?yakky d
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
01:10 PM
1
01
10
PM
PDT
Given that ch. 2 of his new book is about wolves and dog breeding and "what they tell us about evolution" I'd say Dawkins is on his last leg. He essentially takes breeding - something we've known about for 1000's of years - and tries to make it support evolution. At one point he tells the reader to look at the differences between a Great Dane and a Pekinese and then extrapolate (gratuitously) the possible 'evolutionary' changes back 20M generations to see how easy it is to imagine that evolution could make a dog (or whatever) from a bacterium! Pretty lame and dishonest, imo.Borne
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
12:56 PM
12
12
56
PM
PDT
it seem that why but I think the left over are there to make sure that we do not think there are many designers. no lefter overs means no signs of command design. Also if we think natural section is strong enough to make evolution happen than these non coding parts will go away very quickly. eaten way by deletions. We have genes for laying eggs. Why in hell would natural selection persevere it. It since it does no do any thing it takes up space and energy and in nature is very sightly deleterious. Any deletion will be beneficial since it will reduce energy being wasted and add to our fitness. Since that gene still exist means it sending message to us that one designer created us. Anther thing is rise question about natural selection because it show natural selection does not see there fore it's creative powers are limited.spark300c
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
11:40 AM
11
11
40
AM
PDT
hmmm... maybe i should've just said "useless structures". a thoughtful designer would probably be inclined to eliminate extraneous elements. evolution would predict leftovers.Jack Golightly
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
10:42 AM
10
10
42
AM
PDT
I have great idea what if the designer took one form and genetically engineered to be anther. The way the designer worked would be very similar to command descent. In Yec model is imposable but in Oec model is very possible because there enough time for genes to brake.spark300c
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
10:36 AM
10
10
36
AM
PDT
I have two points, 1 - It seems that Andrew Sibley agrees with Richard Dawkins that common ancestry = neo-Darwinism. It doesn't. Behe, for instance, very clearly holds to common ancestry. 2 - Please explain the following via "common design". There are about 80 known disease producing specific point mutations that are shared by both human and chimp. 3 - I well understand that common ancestry is incompatible with a literal interpretation of a Biblical Adam and Eve. Is ID truly scientific, or is it creationism in a cheap tuxedo? The answer to the latter will be determined by the answer to my question 2 above.bFast
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
10:34 AM
10
10
34
AM
PDT
left-over, useless structures would be evidence against common design. Why?Learned Hand
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
10:23 AM
10
10
23
AM
PDT
Anybody know if he talks about dog breeding again? That would be really funny. Jack, left-over from what? You mean left-over from the original design?tragic mishap
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
10:20 AM
10
10
20
AM
PDT
yakky d, left-over, useless structures would be evidence against common design.Jack Golightly
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
10:18 AM
10
10
18
AM
PDT
yakky d - design is a probabilistic inference to the best explanation, as are evolutionary explanations. The problem for biology is to determine which is the best explanation, sometimes the answer is clear, sometimes it isn't. For those who like to think that science gives absolute answers such probabilistic solutions are not very satisfactory. But as a meteorologist I have to write weather forecasts on the basis of over 50 solutions. Uncertainty is a fact of scientific life, so all I can say is 'deal with it.'Andrew Sibley
September 4, 2009
September
09
Sep
4
04
2009
10:18 AM
10
10
18
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply