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Dilbert’s creator, Scott Adams, gives lessons in being a troll for science

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Courtesy Salvo 49:

Last fall, Dilbert creator Scott Adams held his first online “Troll College.” Sitting in front of a wonky whiteboard, the satirist extraordinaire and sarcastic poker-of-fun at all things pompous, taught seven rules for would-be internet trolls. One capitalized on the straw man fallacy, which involves misstating your target’s argument, then criticizing the misstatement. Others focused on rhetorical strategy: always issue a “halfpinion,” for example, which reduces a complex issue to one variable, rather than a real opinion, which would require taking all factors into account.

“You should also pretend,” Adams said, moving on to rule number five, “that you as a troll [do] something called ‘understanding science.’ . . . Just make the assumption that you know more about science than other people.” And like a good teacher, he modeled how it should be done. “Ah huh huh huh,” he guffawed, demonstrating the condescending, arrogant, mocking tone you should assume. “You don’t know anything about science, ah ha ha. . . .” A troll should never give reasons for what he “understands.” What matters is the attitude.

Terrell Clemmons, “When Darwin’s Foundations Are Crumbling, What Will the Faithful Do?” at Salvo

They seem to have followed the script, Clemmons reports, with Michael Behe’s Darwin Devolves.

You can sit on the observation deck here.

Hat tip: Philip Cunningham

See also: Dilbert’s Scott Adams And The Reproductively Effective Delusion Evolutionary Thesis

and

Schrodinger’s cat applies for a job

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Comments
ba77 q 41 -
Thus, a study that was central to a conference that was held at the Vatican that proved that the vast majority of atheists do not live consistently within their naturalistic worldview, but harbor many supernatural beliefs, is somehow, for Bob (and weave) O’Hara and Hazel, proof that their atheistic worldview is correct???
I can't speak for Hazel, but I wasn't offering it up as proof that my worldview is correct, but rather that to dismiss atheists who aren't materialists as exceptions is erroneous. If anything, atheists who are philosophical naturalists are the exception (even in the Us only about a third fall into that category).Bob O'H
June 30, 2019
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JAD, H et al know that UD has more influence than they suggest in their comments. That itself speaks volumes, that they resort to berating and false assertion-based belittling; there is a reason why UD has a penumbra of attack sites and there is a reason for the ad hominem tone of those sites. Second there is a place for exposing just how empty the rhetoric we deal with is. On this, the core matter is that over the past few days things deteriorated to the point where for the first time in years I thought it advisable to remind of the still open challenge to actually warrant the blind watchmaker thesis. The ducking, dodging and evasion shows by implication that those who so busily expend rhetorical effort to attack the design inference and anyone willing to support it know they don't have a sound case on the merits. You can rest assured that if there were such a warrant, it would be triumphantly trumpeted all over the Internet. There isn't. As it is we see clear evidence of ideological imposition (which they don't like to be reminded of) and we find that there is no good observational warrant for the claim that FSCO/I arises by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, whilst trillions of observed cases show it to be a reliable sign of design. This is backed by something else they can only distract attention from, search challenge. The issue on substance is actually settled: there is every good reason to infer from the FSCO/I in the world of life that it is designed. Cosmological fine tuning points to a designed cosmos set up to support such life. The onward issue is to identify how the rhetoric of distraction and the politics of imposition work, and to counter them. KFkairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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H, all worldviews need responsible warrant. Faith in God is not even comparable to that in fairies and the like in terms of logic of being and core of worldview. The comparison is itself telling. KFkairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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BB, you are setting up a strawman and knocking it over, and you know or should know better. While Lewontin's discussion as a member of the elites is striking as he responded to his friend Sagan's last book, The Demon-haunted World, Sagan being a leading populariser of evolutionary materialistic scientism, there are in fact a great many cases that amount to much the same. The impression I get from your reaction and attempts to dismiss is that you have no cogent answer on the merits to what is inadvertently exposed here but do not wish to be reminded of the fact. KF PS: Here is Alex Rosenberg's admission as he tries to celebrate evolutionary materialistic scientism -- and note the title:
Alex Rosenberg as he begins Ch 9 of his The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: >> FOR SOLID EVOLUTIONARY REASONS, WE’VE BEEN tricked into looking at life from the inside. [--> So, just how did self-aware, intentional consciousness arise on such materialism? Something from nothing through poof magic words like "emergence" won't do.] Without scientism, we look at life from the inside, from the first-person POV (OMG, you don’t know what a POV is?—a “point of view”). The first person is the subject, the audience, the viewer of subjective experience, the self in the mind. Scientism shows that the first-person POV is an illusion. [–> grand delusion is let loose in utter self referential incoherence] Even after scientism convinces us, we’ll continue to stick with the first person. But at least we’ll know that it’s another illusion of introspection and we’ll stop taking it seriously. We’ll give up all the answers to the persistent questions about free will, the self, the soul, and the meaning of life that the illusion generates [–> bye bye to responsible, rational freedom on these presuppositions]. The physical facts fix all the facts. [--> asserts materialism, leading to . . . ] The mind is the brain. It has to be physical and it can’t be anything else, since thinking, feeling, and perceiving are physical process—in particular, input/output processes—going on in the brain. We [–> at this point, what "we," apart from "we delusions"?] can be sure of a great deal about how the brain works because the physical facts fix all the facts about the brain. The fact that the mind is the brain guarantees that there is no free will. It rules out any purposes or designs organizing our actions or our lives [–> thus rational thought and responsible freedom]. It excludes the very possibility of enduring persons, selves, or souls that exist after death or for that matter while we live.>>
PPS: Similarly, here is Crick (a Nobel Prize winner):
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
PPPS: William Provine in his U Tenn Darwin Day address:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]
And there are more.kairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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Here’s a clear and classic example of trolling:
kf writes, “DS, Hazel and BB, I now extend the formal challenge to you.” Baloney! There is a huge body of literature about evolution, and some clear distinctions, I am sure, about the difference between metaphysical and physical statements about what has happened. To expect a few laypersons to summarize all that in 6000 words is silly. Here’s my challenge to you. Write up a summary of all your arguments about design and do something with them to impact a wider audience of qualified persons rather than posting repetitively on some relatively obscure internet forum with three or four diehards who are willing to keep discussing things with you. Will you accept that challenge?
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/first-ever-natural-narwhal-beluga-hybrid-found-has-bizarre-teeth/#comment-679759 Know-it-all Hazel and “her” fellow interlocutors won’t take up the challenge because, as we all know (including them, if they are honest) they don’t have any arguments to begin with. Nevertheless, for some reason Hazel feels compelled to comment here almost every day and several times a day. Why? It’s obvious that she and her friends know how to be argumentative. However, do they understand the difference between making a sound logically valid argument and being argumentative? Personally, I don’t care what Hazel believes and thinks. (Now just watch “she’ll” try to do a rhetorical turn-around with what I just said like she tried to do above with Kf.) But what will that prove? Nothing. So why is she so obsessed with this site? Frankly, it’s irrational. Empty rhetoric proves nothing. I found the following sentence especially telling:
“Write up a summary of all your arguments about design and do something with them to impact a wider audience of qualified persons rather than posting repetitively on some relatively obscure internet forum with three or four diehards who are willing to keep discussing things with you.”
So, why is Hazel wasting time on a third rate site like UD? And why is she wasting everyone else’s time with her argumentative yet baseless and vacuous comments? Is it because she feels our third rate site is a threat to civilization? Or, is it because she feels socially intellectually superior to the “rubes” who post here. (Maybe she’ll be open and transparent and finally tell us.) Is it ethical to waste other people’s time-- especially people you don’t know-- with inane and stupid “arguments”? She and her minions certainly know how to obfuscate and obstruct and how to disrupt and derail the discussion. But what’s the point? People on the ID side need to stop taking the bait! They need to stop enabling and pandering to these people. I have said that here many times before but for some reason it doesn’t sink in. The only thing more foolish than being a fool is being played by one. PLEASE STOP being played by these people. If they don’t offer a logically valid argument, with fact based of evidence based premises, don’t reply. If want to be polite then remind them they need to make a valid argument. But please don’t pander.john_a_designer
June 30, 2019
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kf writes, " I think that it’s worth an OP." Keep it short, and don't paste stuff you've pasted dozens of times before. My 2 cents. Also, kf says, "Instead, atheism is the choice exerted to disbelieve in God, and that to claim one has adequate warrant for such disbelief — as opposed to having doubts that God exists. " I don't believe in leprechauns, or angels and demons, or fairies. Do I have to provide warrant for such belief, or just point out there is not anywhere enough evidence for such for me to even bother wondering whether they exist?hazel
June 30, 2019
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hazel, I'm not a materialist in that I do believe abstract things (numbers, propositions, etc.) actually exist independently of us. That belief comes with a whole host of problems for which I don't have answers, unfortunately.daveS
June 30, 2019
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Good point, BB.hazel
June 30, 2019
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SA
What about Bob? Seversky? Mimus? DaveS? Brother Brian? There are “supernatural forces” out there?
I don’t know. But until there is evidence to the contrary I will live my life under the premise that they do not exist. I think the source of confusion has to do with how we define supernatural. Some perceive things like magnetism and gravity to be supernatural forces. I consider that anything that can be measured and that interact with matter are natural (material) forces. That does not preclude some God from interacting with the material world. But if one does, and we can measure/observe these interactions, then he is a natural force. The fact that there have been no confirmed incidents of God interacting with the material world (seeing Jesus in a slice of toast or claiming that one is only alive because of God’s intercession don’t count) any belief in such a being must be taken on faith.Brother Brian
June 30, 2019
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Various replies to SA: First, as I implied at 25, by “atheist” I mean someone who does not believe in any “gods” in the sense of beings who participate actively in the physical world or the lives of human beings.” I also agree with Sev that atheism implies that the gods described by all religions do not exist when he writes “No, atheism is the position that there exists no evidence sufficient to compel belief in a specified deity or group of deities.” Second, SA says of me, “Ok, you are one that believes in the existence of some immaterial being of some kind.” No, not at all, as I said above. I believe there is more than matter, but I don’t think that is a “being” of any kind. Also, SA says, “Hazel is a believer in some supernatural something out there.” I don’t think “supernatural” is a good description of my beliefs: this discussion should not be about my particular beliefs, I don’t think, but my basic metaphysical speculation is that there is an underlying unknowable oneness from which both mind and matter arise through what we experience at the physical level as quantum processes. This oneness does not have the quality of personhood, nor take any active interest in human affairs, but it is the source of our minds with which we create personhood within ourselves, and is the creative force which structures matter and mind so that they can function as they do. But the point is that this is an example of a non-materialistic atheism. SA writes, “There are probably 10 atheists who are active on this site presently, maybe more.” and then surmises other than me the other nine are materialists. He then mentions five people (Bob? Seversky? Mimus? DaveS? Brother Brian): I can’t think of other current posters. I’m pretty sure Dave has said he is not a materialist, but he hasn’t shown any interest in discussing his beliefs (and we certainly can’t blame him for that!) Sev has explained that he is agnostic about ultimate reality. That leaves Bob, Brother Brian, and Mimus as potentially materialists, although I don’t know for sure whether any of them have so stated about themselves. Side note: supernatural is not a good term, as one can argue (I do) that mind arises as naturally as matter. Non-material is better, I think. And as Sev says, “unknown” applies to lots of things, some of which, in my opinion, will be forever unknown because they are beyond any experience we can ever have. Last, you write to Sev, "You affirm then, that non-material (immaterial) forces, entities or beings exist?" I don't think he said that at all. He said there is a "possibility that there are as yet unknown phenomena underlying what we can currently observe in the Universe," which I agree with (with the caveat, as stated above, that they may be permanently unknowable to human experience.hazel
June 30, 2019
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Hazel
I am really puzzled why you think one quote from one guy is a definitive statement that everyone who thinks that science is the “surest method of putting is in contact with physical reality” is somehow beholden to. Lewontin is certainly not any “official spokesperson” for science, or any other group.
It’s called the argument from authority fallacy. Just as the claim that a hand written sentence from a note written by Crick is proof that DNA is a code is an argument from authority fallacy. Or Plato’s cave. I wouldn’t be surprised if the argument from authority fallacy is one of the “weak arguments” that KF often directs us to.Brother Brian
June 30, 2019
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Sev, is there evidence enough to COMPEL belief in essentially anything of consequence, factoring in grand delusion models of the world, Boltzmann brains, etc? Belief and inference simply are not compelled, they are inferred or acknowledged i/l/o irreducibly free choice. Even, perceptual beliefs -- what compels acceptance that the world you see is real? Instead, atheism is the choice exerted to disbelieve in God, and that to claim one has adequate warrant for such disbelief -- as opposed to having doubts that God exists. This joint claim is very hard to justify on comparative difficulties grounds starting with implications of the logic of being and arguable need for an adequate, finitely remote root of reality; to be further discussed. Later today after church, DV . . . and I think that it's worth an OP. KFkairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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Seversky
Admitting the possibility that there are as yet unknown phenomena underlying what we can currently observe in the Universe does not undermine that position in the slightest.
It undermines the question "where is the evidence"? On what basis do you conclude there is "the possibility"?
I prefer “unknown” to “supernatural” because I regard the latter as an incoherent and largely redundant concept.
You affirm then, that non-material (immaterial) forces, entities or beings exist? So you are not a materialist in the ordinary understanding of that term, correct?Silver Asiatic
June 30, 2019
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Hazel is a believer in some supernatural something out there. What about Bob? Seversky? Mimus? DaveS? Brother Brian? There are "supernatural forces" out there?Silver Asiatic
June 30, 2019
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Silver Asiatic @ 42
As BA77 indicated, this merely shows the inconsistency and illogic of the atheistic view. To admit that some, undefined supernatural forces exist is to undermine atheism
No, atheism is the position that there exists no evidence sufficient to compel belief in a specified deity or group of deities. Admitting the possibility that there are as yet unknown phenomena underlying what we can currently observe in the Universe does not undermine that position in the slightest. I prefer "unknown" to "supernatural" because I regard the latter as an incoherent and largely redundant concept.
If these forces exist, why can’t they or don’t they act upon nature?
A perfectly good question and one that implies that you agree with me that we can only know of such phenomena through their observable effects on the material world.Seversky
June 30, 2019
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Bob
I knew I should have bookmarked this page. It refers to a survey which shows that only a minority of atheists surveyed didn’t believe in any supernatural forces.
As BA77 indicated, this merely shows the inconsistency and illogic of the atheistic view. To admit that some, undefined supernatural forces exist is to undermine atheism. If these forces exist, why can't they or don't they act upon nature? Scientism is killed off with this notion also. So, you're giving us good news. I'm happy to be corrected. I mentioned to Hazel that I judged the percentage of materialist-atheists from interactions on this site (and others) debating atheists. Where do you place yourself on the spectrum, Bob? Materialist? Or believer in some supernatural forces?Silver Asiatic
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You simply can't make this stuff up, nobody would believe it. Only an atheist would think that supplying the rope for his own hanging would somehow exonerate him of the crime that led to his hanging in the first place. Bob O'H, in response to,,,
Silver Asiatic @ 29 (& Hazel) – But I’ll once again point out that atheism is not synonymous with materialism… There are exceptions and contradictions among every group of believers. But we don’t argue by way of those exceptions.
Bob O'H, in response to that cites this study from a conference on unbelief that was held at the Vatican
Major 'unbelief' conference held at Vatican - 28 MAY 2019 Excerpt: The multidisciplinary research programme,,, mapped the nature and diversity of 'unbelief' across six countries including Brazil, China, Denmark, Japan, UK and the USA. Researchers asked unbelievers across the six countries about attitudes to issues such as supernatural phenomena, whether the “universe is ultimately meaningless” and what values matter most to them. Their interim findings, published in a report “Understanding Unbelief Atheists and agnostics around the world”, showed that in all six countries, the majority of unbelievers identified as having 'no religion'. Unbelievers, the report found, exhibited significant diversity both within, and between, different countries. It also found that a lack of belief in God didn’t necessarily entail unbelief in other supernatural phenomena - the majority of unbelievers in all countries surveyed expressed belief in one or more supernatural phenomena. The report also found that, contrary to popular belief, only around a third of unbelievers in each country regard the universe to be ultimately meaningless. The report also tackles the implication of unbelief on morality and values, finding that most unbelievers endorse objective moral values, human dignity and attendant rights and the “deep value” of nature, at similar rates to the general populations in their countries. https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/11733/major-unbelief-conference-held-at-vatican-
Here's the pdf
Reports – Understanding Unbelief - Research - University of Kent - Atheists and agnostics around the world: Interim findings from 2019 research in Brazil, China, Denmark, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States Excerpt conclusions: 5. Unbelief in God doesn’t necessarily entail unbelief in other supernatural phenomena. Atheists and (less so) agnostics exhibit lower levels of supernatural belief than do the wider populations. However, only minorities of atheists or agnostics in each of our countries appear to be thoroughgoing naturalists. (2.2, 2.3) 6. Another common supposition – that of the purposeless unbeliever, lacking anything to ascribe ultimate meaning to the universe – also does not bear scrutiny. While atheists and agnostics are disproportionately likely to affirm that the universe is ‘ultimately meaningless’ in five of our countries, it still remains a minority view among unbelievers in all six countries. (2.4) 7. Also perhaps challenging common suppositions: with only a few exceptions, atheists and agnostics endorse the realities of objective moral values, human dignity and attendant rights, and the ‘deep value’ of nature, at similar rates to the general populations in their countries. (3.1) 8. There is remarkably high agreement between unbelievers and general populations concerning the values most important for ‘finding meaning in the world and your own life’. ‘Family’ and ‘Freedom’ ranked highly for all. Also popular – albeit less unanimously so – were ‘Compassion’, ‘Truth’, ‘Nature’, and ‘Science’. (3.2) https://research.kent.ac.uk/understandingunbelief/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2019/05/UUReportRome.pdf
Thus, a study that was central to a conference that was held at the Vatican that proved that the vast majority of atheists do not live consistently within their naturalistic worldview, but harbor many supernatural beliefs, is somehow, for Bob (and weave) O'Hara and Hazel, proof that their atheistic worldview is correct??? Give me a break. The fact that atheists themselves are forced to back off a completely naturalistic worldview and adopt 'supernatural' beliefs about meaning, purpose, and morality in their lives, and are unable to live consistently within naturalism, is actually a knock down proof that Atheistic naturalism cannot possibly be true and is certainly not any sort of proof that can be construed to be against Theism being true. Besides the rope that Bob (and weave) himself supplied for his own hanging, in the following article Nancy Pearcey cites many leading atheists who reluctantly admit that it is impossible for them to live consistently within their naturalistic worldview,
Darwin's Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails - Nancy Pearcey - April 23, 2015 Excerpt: Even materialists often admit that, in practice, it is impossible for humans to live any other way. One philosopher jokes that if people deny free will, then when ordering at a restaurant they should say, "Just bring me whatever the laws of nature have determined I will get." An especially clear example is Galen Strawson, a philosopher who states with great bravado, "The impossibility of free will ... can be proved with complete certainty." Yet in an interview, Strawson admits that, in practice, no one accepts his deterministic view. "To be honest, I can't really accept it myself," he says. "I can't really live with this fact from day to day. Can you, really?",,, In What Science Offers the Humanities, Edward Slingerland, identifies himself as an unabashed materialist and reductionist. Slingerland argues that Darwinian materialism leads logically to the conclusion that humans are robots -- that our sense of having a will or self or consciousness is an illusion. Yet, he admits, it is an illusion we find impossible to shake. No one "can help acting like and at some level really feeling that he or she is free." We are "constitutionally incapable of experiencing ourselves and other conspecifics [humans] as robots." One section in his book is even titled "We Are Robots Designed Not to Believe That We Are Robots.",,, When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine -- a "big bag of skin full of biomolecules" interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, "When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, ... see that they are machines." Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: "That is not how I treat them.... I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis." Certainly if what counts as "rational" is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis within Brooks's worldview. It sticks out of his box. How does he reconcile such a heart-wrenching cognitive dissonance? He doesn't. Brooks ends by saying, "I maintain two sets of inconsistent beliefs." He has given up on any attempt to reconcile his theory with his experience. He has abandoned all hope for a unified, logically consistent worldview. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html
Even Richard (selfish gene) Dawkins himself admitted that it would be 'intolerable' for him to live his life as if his atheistic materialistic worldview were actually true
Who wrote Richard Dawkins’s new book? – October 28, 2006 Excerpt: Dawkins: What I do know is that what it feels like to me, and I think to all of us, we don't feel determined. We feel like blaming people for what they do or giving people the credit for what they do. We feel like admiring people for what they do.,,, Manzari: But do you personally see that as an inconsistency in your views? Dawkins: I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/who_wrote_richard_dawkinss_new002783.html
In what should be needless to say, if it is impossible for you to live as if your naturalistic worldview were actually true then your worldview cannot possibly reflect reality as it really is but your worldview must instead be based on a delusion.
Existential Argument against Atheism - November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
Thus, it turns out that the argument that Hazel and Bob (and weave) themselves were trying to advance, namely, "But I’ll once again point out that atheism is not synonymous with materialism",, is actually another proof that atheistic materialism cannot possibly be true. i.e. The atheist, in order to avoid living his life in a completely insane manner, must 'borrow' from Theism. As the following article noted, " A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath."
The Heretic - Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? - March 25, 2013 Excerpt: ,,,Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/heretic_707692.html?page=3
To repeat,
In fact, (as I have pointed out several times now), assuming Naturalism instead of Theism as the worldview on which all of science is based leads to the catastrophic epistemological failure of science itself.
Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Bottom line, nothing is real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, – Darwin’s Theory vs Falsification – 39:45 minute mark https://youtu.be/8rzw0JkuKuQ?t=2387
Thus, although the Darwinist may firmly believes he is on the terra firma of science (in his appeal, even demand, for methodological naturalism), the fact of the matter is that, when examining the details of his materialistic/naturalistic worldview, it is found that Darwinists/Atheists are adrift in an ocean of fantasy and imagination with no discernible anchor for reality to grab on to. It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
bornagain77
June 30, 2019
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The Fact of Evolution Refutes the Theory of Evolution - https://evofact.wordpress.com/forexhr
June 30, 2019
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Silver Asiatic @ 29 (& Hazel) -
But I’ll once again point out that atheism is not synonymous with materialism…
There are exceptions and contradictions among every group of believers. But we don’t argue by way of those exceptions.
I knew I should have bookmarked this page. It refers to a survey which shows that only a minority of atheists surveyed didn't believe in any supernatural forces. From the report:
As can be seen above, in none of our six countries surveyed does the percentage of unbelievers who qualify as naturalists approach 50%. Even among American atheists, the most naturalistic group across our surveyed countries, only a third seem to have a wholly naturalistic world view.
So if anything, materialists would be the exception. (note to self: work harder on condescending, arrogant, mocking tone)Bob O'H
June 30, 2019
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Naturalism has no real, rigorous definition, it is just an excuse to be lazy and to not even think about testing or exploring certain ideas. ID advocates here complain about naturalism and materialism a lot, but they aren't the real issue and tearing them down won't do anything to convince people because they are wedded to the idea of progress. If human history is a story of progress, then there must constantly be a stream of new things replacing old things and old ideas must never, ever come back. If they do, it threatens the modern worldview. Modern society has invested extremely heavily in this narrative and it would be devastating to modern humanity's self-image and self-confidence to admit that their core beliefs (nature is undesigned and new ideas are always better) are over-valued.KJul3s
June 30, 2019
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H, generally speaking, textbook authors will not be so foolish as to explicitly advocate evolutionary materialistic scientism [= naturalism, where the ISM part in fact points to an ideological and/or worldview commitment] in their books. What we will find instead is an implicit naturalistic pose and the associated inference that everything is explainable and/or has been explained sufficiently by Big-S, naturalistic science. Likely, with dashes of scientism, the presumption that "Science" [usually, naturalistically understood] dominates credible knowledge, often implying or at least suggesting that that which is not scientific has low or no credibility. When, in fact, the grounding of knowledge is a matter of logic and epistemology, matters of philosophy. Which, is sometimes explicitly attacked. Sometimes, too, there is the suggestion that the naturalistic reconstruction of the past of origins is so certain as to be effectively facts as certain as that the earth is round and orbits the sun under gravitational forces; a serious logical-epistemological error regarding attainable degree of warrant for an unobserved past and imposition of ideologically loaded, deeply question-begging bias. This sort of stance is made a little more explicit in the US NSTA Board statement of July 2000, which I marked up to show its errors, agendas and censorship. Remember, that is presented as the proper definition of science, when in fact it is riddled with demonstrable fallacies. What is of course lost in the process is the understanding that sciences are open-ended searches for the truth about our world i/l/o observation and reasoned argument, creating inherently provisional bodies of observation, explanations and soft sense knowledge anchored by credible empirical reliability. Where, accessible degree of knowledge and reliability not only hinges on observational testing but on what aspect of the body of knowledge is being addressed. Empirical observations and results of tests are inherently more reliable than inferences and especially theories which are in effect inferences to best current explanation. The empirical reliability of a theory is a matter of empirical test and is inherently provisional. From this perspective, a live theory is a possibly true, empirically well tested explanatory model. Older theories that have had limitations identified [e.g. Newtonian dynamics] are well tested limiting cases that implicitly constrain successors or augmentations through the need to reduce to the limiting case. (That's why for instance we speak of rest mass, such that E = m_0*c^2. Which is a valid supplementary point to Scott's example above. Kinetic energy under relativistic terms has in it a term that does not vanish when velocity is zero.) And so forth. KF PS: For reference, I again put up my markup on the US NSTA July 2000 Board statement:
All those involved with science teaching and learning should have a common, accurate view of the nature of science. [--> yes but a question-begging ideological imposition is not an accurate view] Science is characterized by the systematic gathering of information through various forms of direct and indirect observations and the testing of this information by methods including, but not limited to, experimentation [--> correct so far]. The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts [--> evolutionary materialistic scientism is imposed] and the laws and theories related to those [--> i.e. ideologically loaded, evolutionary materialistic] concepts . . . . science, along with its methods, explanations and generalizations, must be the sole focus of instruction in science classes to the exclusion of all non-scientific or pseudoscientific methods, explanations, generalizations and products [--> censorship of anything that challenges the imposition; fails to appreciate that scientific methods are studied through logic, epistemology and philosophy of science, which are philosophy not science] . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science [--> a good point, but fails to see that this brings to bear many philosophical issues], a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations [--> outright ideological imposition and censorship that fetters freedom of responsible thought] supported by empirical evidence [--> the imposition controls how evidence is interpreted and that's why blind watchmaker mechanisms never seen to actually cause FSCO/I have default claim to explain it in the world of life] that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument [--> ideological imposition may hide under a cloak of rationality but is in fact anti-rational], inference, skepticism [--> critical awareness is responsible, selective hyperskepticism backed by ideological censorship is not], peer review [--> a circle of ideologues in agreement has no probative value] and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic [= evolutionary materialistic scientism is imposed by definition, locking out an unfettered search for the credibly warranted truth about our world i/l/o observational evidence and linked inductive reasoning] methods and explanations and, as such [--> notice, ideological imposition by question-begging definition], is precluded from using supernatural elements [--> sets up a supernatural vs natural strawman alternative when the proper contrast since Plato in The Laws, Bk X, is natural vs artificial] in the production of scientific knowledge. [US NSTA Board, July 2000, definition of the nature of science for education purposes]
kairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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SA, thanks for thoughts. I am pointing to the phenomenon of statistical or probability distributions, where phenomena driven by chance manifest an underlying lawlike order. Yes, they are highly contingent but end up in definite patterns, e.g. binomial, Gaussian, Weibull, Beta etc distributions and the various distributions of statistical mechanics. KFkairosfocus
June 30, 2019
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Hazel There are probably 10 atheists who are active on this site presently, maybe more. Ok, you are one that believes in the existence of some immaterial being of some kind. But I think you're the only one. 90% are materialists. That's enough for me to generalize.Silver Asiatic
June 29, 2019
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Uh, I am such a person, FWIW. I've spent quite a bit of time explaining my views the last six months or so, and I think you've been around for some of those discussions. Also, you can Google "spiritual not religious" to find out more about the prevalence of such beliefs these days.hazel
June 29, 2019
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Hazel
I don’t think that is true, and my guess is that there might be some surveys (of whatever reliability) about this someplace. My impression is that lots of people are disillusioned with religion which makes specific claims about specific gods, but believe there “is something out there” above and beyond just material existence.
I've argued with atheists via evolution debates for 15 years or more. Now, the situation may be changing and it would be great, if so. Perhaps these years of clashing between atheists and believers has softened the hard-line atheist position that was so common a decade ago. Perhaps now, people realize that the primitive notion of materialism, championed by the likes of Dawkins and Coyne, is totally useless as a philosophy of life, and they are tired of being destroyed in debate. So … yes, maybe there is a New New Atheism, which tries to fit "something out there" into an atheist belief. That's a positive step. At the same time, I haven't seen such persons "in action" in the ordinary debates. I don't think we've seen any (or very few) atheists like that here on UD, although I've been away for several months (are there any here today?). I think usually and almost universally, the atheists we encounter are absolute materialists. For them, there is nothing immaterial. There is nothing "out there" other than matter. I guess most of them by now want some kind of multiverse to fill the void. But it's all based on the same concept. If, however, there really is a strong contingent of "immaterial believing" atheists out there … I think they'll run head-long into the problems that Plato and Aristotle attempted to solve, and have to admit some things. Where did this "something" come from? It can't come from matter. If it exists always, we're talking about an attribute of God. If it has intelligence and power, those also cannot come from matter. If they self-exist, then we have God again. Eventually, the attributes of this "something out there" will be "that which we call God".Silver Asiatic
June 29, 2019
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sa writes, "Generally speaking, atheists today (it may have been less true at another time) are materialists." I don't think that is true, and my guess is that there might be some surveys (of whatever reliability) about this someplace. My impression is that lots of people are disillusioned with religion which makes specific claims about specific gods, but believe there "is something out there" above and beyond just material existence. to edta: I didn't mean to imply in any way that what I said was an argument against the existence of God. I did mean to say clearly that "scientific and metaphysical explanations need to be distinguished." Many people believe that somehow something was/is the cause of our universe and its attributes which can and have led to life, but we have no way to investigate the specifics of that: thus it is a metaphysical belief, not a scientific one.hazel
June 29, 2019
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Hazel @25: “I have not read any of the people you mention, although I’ve heard of all of them but Moran.” I think the one you haven’t heard of is a professor at a Canadian university who embarrassed himself here a few years ago when he affirmed that he knew exactly how morphogen gradients are formed. Apparently humility is not an abundant commodity within the Darwinian crowd. :)OLV
June 29, 2019
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Hazel @ 17, >This seems like a good objection to me. If God is allowed as a scientific explanation, he can be invoked to explain anything, and therefore would really explain nothing. I think this holds for naturalistic explanations; we might agree on that. But I don't think God fits into the category of a scientific explanation. But if God does exist and did create us and the world we live in, he would _have_ to be the explanation for some things, starting with our existence. I don't see this as an objection to the idea of God. It does say that scientific and metaphysical explanations need to be distinguished. But I don't think is an airtight argument against God.EDTA
June 29, 2019
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KF
SA, weird as it seems, statistics tells us that chance processes are riddled with regularities.
It depends on how we define regularity and what level of prediction we're comfortable with. If we're saying that in any given string of events, it is 100% certain that "something will happen", then yes. But by definion, a random sequence is non-ordered. So, if we mean by "regularity" an ordered process, then no. If we mean that random mutations will necessarily create certain functional, new traits beneficial to an organism over a period of time, I'll say "no" to that also. Mutations are random and will not necessarily create anything viable. They might do it, based on some probabilities. But that is different from the regularity that we see in a force like gravity, for example.Silver Asiatic
June 29, 2019
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Hazel
But I’ll once again point out that atheism is not synonymous with materialism...
There are exceptions and contradictions among every group of believers. But we don't argue by way of those exceptions. For the sake of discussion, we talk about the predominant trends. Generally speaking, Christians believe that God exists. Not all do. There's no point making that qualification though. Generally speaking, atheists today (it may have been less true at another time) are materialists.
And I didn’t see, and would be interested in seeing, the list of textbooks you posted.
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/interesting-quotes-from-biology-textbooks/Silver Asiatic
June 29, 2019
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