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Do we need a context to identify a message as the product of an intelligent being?

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In today’s short post, I shall argue that (a) there are at least some messages which we can identify as the product of an intelligent agent, regardless of their linguistic and social context, and (b) there is no context in which it would be reasonable for us to conclude that a message visible to everyone was a hallucination.

What prompted this discussion

In a post titled Signature in the cell?, Professor Edward Feser argued that no message, in and of itself, could warrant the inference that it was the product of an intelligent agent, without a knowledge of the context of the message. Referring to the hypothetical scenario in which a “Made by Yahweh” message was discovered in every human being’s cells, Feser wrote:

If we’re to judge that Yahweh, rather than extraterrestrial pranksters, hallucination, or some other cause, was behind such an event, it is considerations other than the event itself that will justify us in doing so.

The reference to “hallucination, or some other cause” (presumably a natural one) as a possible explanation for the “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells led me to infer that Feser was acknowledging the legitimacy of a hyper-skeptical stance here – a position for which I criticized him in a subsequent post. Feser wrote a follow-up post in reply, in which he clarified his position:

I neither said nor implied that it would be “perfectly rational” to interpret phrases like the ones in question [e.g. the “Made by Yahweh” message in every cell – VJT] as hallucinations or as something other than a product of intelligence… What I said is that determining what to make of such weird events would crucially depend on epistemic background context, and that if we concluded that God was responsible (as of course we well might), then that epistemic background context would be doing more work in justifying that judgment than the weird events themselves would be.

In a comment attached to a recent post on Professor Feser’s Website, I pressed him to answer two simple questions of mine:

…[A]s an ID theorist, I happen to think it’s absolutely obvious that we can identify some messages as the work of an intelligent designer, regardless of context… From my reading of your [earlier] post, it seemed to me that you were saying that context was essential when drawing the inference that a message was the work of an intelligent agent. I would profoundly disagree.

I’d like to bury the hatchet, so I’ll ask you two questions:

1. Do you agree that if a message saying “Made by _____” were discovered in every human’s cells, it would be irrational to explain away the discovery as a mass hallucination, regardless of whether the message referred to God, Quetzalcoatl, or Steve Jobs as its author?

2. Do you agree that if the message were suitably long and specific (say, 100 characters of perfectly grammatical English with no repetition), it would be irrational not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, regardless of the message’s context?

As we’ll see below, Feser’s answer to both questions was “No.”
Feser replied:

…[O]ther readers have already pointed out what is wrong with your questions. Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be. If we describe various possible contexts in enough detail, we can certainly see how they would make a clear answer possible. That’s why there’s nothing remotely skeptical about what I said. Give us a specific context and sure, we can decide “This suggested interpretation is just indefensible” or “That suggested interpretation is extremely plausible.” But it’s silly to say “Let’s abstract from all context and then ask what the most probable source of the phrase is.” As Mike Flynn pointed out above, there’s no such thing as the most probable source absent all context.

Feser continued:

BTW, Vincent’s attempt to wriggle out of the problem context poses for his position is like certain point-missing attempts to solve the “commonsense knowledge problem” in AI [artificial intelligence – VJT]. As Hubert Dreyfus argues, it makes no sense to think that intelligence can be reduced to a set of explicitly formulated rules and representations, because there are always various context-dependent ways to interpret the rules and representations. To say “Oh, we’ll just put the ‘right’ interpretation into the rules and representations” completely misses the point, since it just adds further rules and representations that are themselves subject to alternative context-dependent interpretations.

Vincent is doing something similar when he tries to come up with these goofy examples of really long messages written in the cell. It completely misses the point, because that’s just further stuff the import of which depends on a larger context. It also completely misses the point to shout “Skepticism!”, just as an AI defender would be completely missing the point if he accused Dreyfus of being a skeptic. There’s nothing skeptical about it. We can know what the context is and thus we can know what the right interpretation is; we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context.

What is a context, anyway?

Remarkably, nowhere in his post does Professor Feser attempt to define what he means by a context – a curious omission. So I’m going to go with a standard dictionary definition: “the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.” I should mention that there is another definition for context: “the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.” However, in the case under consideration, we are looking at a short isolated message, with nothing preceding or following it. So the questions we need to confront are: do we need to attend to “the circumstances that form the setting” for the purported message, in order to rationally conclude that it is (a) not a collective hallucination we are all having, and (b) from an intelligent source? Feser contends that we do, and I maintain that we do not.

Feser’s absurd epistemic claim: there are some contexts in which hallucination may be a reasonable explanation for the discovery of a purported message in every human’s cells

I’d like to go back to a remark Feser made above:

Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be.

What Feser is saying here is that there are at least some contexts in which it would not be unreasonable [i.e. it might be reasonable] for us to conclude that a purported message discovered by scientists in every human being’s cells was in fact a hallucination. This, I have to say, is outright nonsense.

In order to see why it’s nonsense, let’s imagine a scenario which is as generous to Professor Feser’s case as it is possible to be. Let’s suppose that a worldwide magnetic storm is playing havoc with people’s brains, causing them to hallucinate. It has been claimed that magnetic stimulation of the brain can trigger religious hallucinations, although the evidence for this claim is very thin. But let’s suppose for argument’s sake that this claim is true. During the magnetic storm, some scientists suddenly announce the discovery of a “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells. Other scientists around the world rush to confirm the claim. Could they all be seeing things in their laboratories? Could mass hallucination be a rational explanation for this sudden discovery of what appears to be a message in our cells?

No, it couldn’t – unless all the world’s scientists have not only started hallucinating, but lost their ability to reason, as well. But that wasn’t the scenario envisaged by Feser: his assertion that he can imagine at least some contexts where it would not be unreasonable to conclude that a purported message was a hallucination presupposes that the people drawing this conclusion still possess the use of reason, even in these far-fetched contexts.

One obvious way in which scientists could confirm that the message was real – even during a magnetic storm that was playing havoc with their perceptions – would be to use double-blind testing, with a control sample of similar-looking cells (say, synthetic cells, or perhaps cells from another species) that did not contain the “Made by Yahweh” message. (A control sample of synthetic cells might contain no message at all, or alternatively, a different message – “Made by Craig Venter” – might be inserted into the cells.) If testing on different scientists produced consistent results – e.g. if they all reported seeing the same message in the same cells – then the hallucination hypothesis would be decisively ruled out, as an explanation.

Interpretation is not the same thing as decoding: why the commonsense knowledge problem is irrelevant to the Intelligent Design project

In his reply to my questions, Feser alluded to the work of AI researcher Hubert Dreyfus, who in a book titled Mind over Machine (Free Press, 1986) which he co-authored with Stuart Dreyfus, defined the commonsense knowledge problem as “how to store and access all the facts human beings seem to know” (1986, p. 78). As Wikipedia notes, “The problem is considered to be among the hardest in all of AI research because the breadth and detail of commonsense knowledge is enormous.”

As we’ve seen, Feser contends that because the correct interpretation of a rule invariably requires contextual knowledge, any attempt to infer that a purported message is in fact the product of an intelligent agent, apart from all context, is doomed to failure. But what Feser is assuming here is that the identification of a purported message as the work of an intelligent agent requires a correct interpretation of that message. As an Intelligent Design advocate, I disagree: all it requires is the decoding of that message, and it may not even require that. (If the message could be independently shown to be both highly specific and astronomically improbable, I believe it would be rational to infer on these grounds alone that an intelligent agent was most likely responsible for producing the alleged message, even if we had no idea what it was about.) Hence Professor Feser’s assertion that “we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context” is beside the point.

Decoding a message is very easy, if it is written in the script of a language we already understand: all we need to do is read each word of the script and confirm that it conforms to the grammatical and spelling rules of the language in question. Depending on the language in question, the code we use when reading the words – something we all learned to do at school – may be either a phonic code (for alphabetic scripts), a syllabic code, a logographic code (for ideograms) or a pictographic code. Even if sentence turns out to be grammatically correct, but semantically nonsensical, like Noam Chomsky’s “Colorless green ideas sleep furiously”, decoding it is still a relatively straightforward affair. And if we found such a message inscribed on the walls of every human cell, we should have no hesitation in concluding that some intelligent agent was responsible, even if we didn’t know who that agent was.

(Note: I should like to make it clear that I do not regard people’s ability to read texts written in their own native language as part of the context of a purported message in that language. Defining “context” in this way would make the term absurdly broad. Rather, I would see the ability to read a language as a presupposition of there being any messages in that language at all. The term “context” refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message, and does not include the ability to decode a script.)

Decoding a message is harder when it is written in a language we understand, but where the message is encrypted, using a cipher. In such cases, we might think that at least some background knowledge was essential, in order to decode the message. However, there have been occasions when ciphers were reconstructed through the power of pure deduction – for example, the German Lorenz cipher and the Japanese Purple code. Having successfully decoded the message, it would be the very height of irrationality not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, even if we knew nothing of the message’s context. For instance, the message might say, “The weather is sunny,” but in spy-talk that might really mean: “The coast is clear: we can proceed with our plan.” But even if we had no idea of the message’s true import, we could still legitimately infer that it originated from an intelligent source, once we had decoded it.

When the message is written in an unknown language, decoding is complicated by the mathematical fact that there’s always some cipher that can be used to transform an unknown message into any string of English characters you want. This point was made by one of my critics, named Scott, who argued: “100 characters of perfectly grammatical English wouldn’t look like any such thing to anyone who didn’t already read English. For that matter, given a hundred of anything, there’s some cipher according to which the series encodes any 100-character string you care to choose.” In practice, successful decoding of scripts in unknown languages, such as Linear A (used in Crete over 3,000 years ago), relies heavily on context-related clues. The question then arises: what should we conclude if astronauts found what appeared to be an inscription in an unknown language on the Moon or Mars? Without a context of any sort, could we still make the inference that the inscription came from an intelligent source?

I believe we can. A simple illustration will suffice. In 2013, two scientists writing in the journal Icarus argued that there were patterns in the genetic code of living organisms that were highly statistically significant, with features indicative of intelligence which were inconsistent with any known natural process. (The authors of the paper, Vladimir I. Cherbak of al-Farabi Kazakh National University of Kazakhstan, and Maxim A. Makukov of the Fesenkov Astrophysical Institute, list several categories of natural processes, and they are clearly familiar with the relevant scientific literature on the subject.) “Simple arrangements of the code reveal an ensemble of arithmetical and ideographical patterns of symbolic language,” they wrote. These features included decimal notation, logical transformation and the abstract symbol zero. Summing up, the authors argued:

In total, not only the signal itself reveals intelligent-like features – strict nucleon equalities, their decimal notation, logical transformation accompanying the equalities, the symbol of zero and semantic symmetries, but the very method of its extraction involved abstract operations – consideration of idealized (free and unmodified) molecules, distinction between their blocks and chains, the activation key, contraction and decomposition of codons. We find that taken together all these aspects point at artificial nature of the patterns.

The authors tentatively concluded that the decimal system in the genetic code “was invented outside the Solar System already several billions (sic) years ago.” (H/t: Max for correction to my wording.)

Regardless of whether the authors’ claims turn out to be true or not – and I’m not holding my breath – the point is that the identification of the signal they claimed to find in our genetic code was made on purely mathematical grounds, apart from all considerations of context. In order to rule out a natural (as opposed to artificial) source for the message, the only thing the authors needed to ascertain was whether it could be accounted for by known natural causes. One could always hypothesize the existence of a natural cause capable of generating these mathematical features, but the authors argue that the only reasonable inference to draw is that the signal they claim to find in the genetic code is an artificial one, generated by an intelligent source.

(I should point out here that our knowledge of what natural processes are capable of generating is not contextual knowledge, but scientific knowledge. As I stated above, the term “context” properly refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message. Our knowledge of processes occurring in Nature does not help us to do that.)

I conclude, then, that Professor Feser’s contention that the identification of a purported message as the product of an intelligent source cannot be made, apart from all context, is baseless and incorrect. I hope that Professor Feser will be gracious enough to acknowledge this in the future.

Comments
If you are interested in avoiding erroneous assumptions about why I'm not responding to things you write, RDFish, here are the reasons I often don't respond to posters: 1. I believe I've made my case well enough to stand as-is, and that the expressed rebuttals or challenges don't warrant a response; 2. I think someone is trolling; 3. I think someone is incapable of understanding fundamental aspects of the debate; 4. I just miss their post - it's not like I read every post or live on this site. Or, if you prefer, you can continue assuming erroneous, self-serving explanations that stroke your ego and make you feel like you've won a debate.William J Murray
August 20, 2014
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So what have you been outed as? A big old hypocrite, obviously.
The difference between the two cases is that you were in the middle of a making a point that IDists offered no "single, canonical" definition of intelligence and UB pointed out with your own quotes that you had used the term in an argument here some time ago as if it had such a definition, going so far as to say that you were using it "the same way" as IDists were using it (even while claiming that no one knew what it meant). IOW, UB pointed out that your own prior words directly contradicted you (and I offered more of your past quotes that did the same), and up to a point you refused to answer him (the answer you eventually provided was an obvious and laughable attempt to provide yourself cover). In my case, you are simply asserting that you have "thoroughly discredited" and "demolished" my point about your selective hyper-skepticism and I refuse to acknowledge it. But, what actually happened? You demanded a "single, canonical" definition from IDists, as if one was required for ID to be a scientific enterprise. As others (and I) pointed out, there are many terms science uses to denote physical forces and theories that also have no single, canonical definition. To meet this rebuttal, you did the same thing IDists had been doing to meet your rebut your criticism; you offered a definition of a few of the terms. When IDists were offering definitions of intelligence here, some provided resources and support for their definition. You didn't even offer that much when you provided your supposedly "canonical" definitions. You just said:
You ask “What does evolution mean?” It means change. What does Darwinian evolution mean? It means population change over time by means of random mutation and natural selection. What does natural selection mean? It means disproportionate reproduction due to heritable changes. What does random mutation mean? It means changes in heritable traits that are not correlated with reproductive advantage. I don’t even believe that evolutionary theory is true at all, yet each of its terms are defined quite clearly and precisely.
... as if the above "definitions" you have provided, in the manner you have provided them, demonstrate their "canonical" status. How have you demonstrated these characterizations to be "canonical"? You've done nothing more than anyone here has done who offered a definition for "intelligence"; and in some cases, less, as at least KF offered resources to support his definitional use of the term "intelligence". You didn't even provide so much as a link to a dictionary to support your definitions of those terms, much less make any case that they are "canonical". In your mind, this is you "demolishing" my point about your selective hyperskepticism, when in fact you are demonstrating your selective hyperskepticism. When you provide an unsupported definition of a term in a forum, that's apparently good enough for you when it comes to providing a definition. When other guys do the same thing (and more, providing resources to support their definition) - that's not enough. When you use the term "intelligence" in a debate about ID, it's okay to employ an assumed, common concept of what intelligence is an refers to. When others use it the same way - that's not enough. No, you invent a new criteria for definitions when it comes to ID - "canonical" - and demand the definition meet this criteria you have invented, which you yourself don't even attempt to meet when challenged. Here you are, loud and proud, asserting that weather processing solar radiation into a cyclone is qualitatively the same as a robot bird capable of processing input via signal interpretation through decision trees towards specific goals such as landing on a branch, even after admitting that the only known source of such a CSI-rich phenomena is intelligence. Are you now saying that a cyclone is a CSI-rich phenomena, and that intelligence (or, as you would argue, physically embodied humans) is the only known, reasonably-inferred cause?William J Murray
August 20, 2014
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Just a quick note to thank Dio, WJM, SB and others for their kind words and encouragement. Thank You!Upright BiPed
August 20, 2014
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RD:
You have, however, helped me understand the mistake that UB, William, StephenB, and others here are making. You are all conflating the arbitrary nature of code with some other property like non-determinism or irreducibility to physical cause.
I think the argument is that the origins of a system embodying an arbitrary code transcends physics (we repeatedly hear that a code can't be derived from the "inexorable laws" of physics) and therefore requires an intelligence, not that the operation of that code-system itself is somehow arbitrary, and therefore other than physical.Reciprocating Bill
August 20, 2014
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@RDF
Hahahahahahahaahahahahaha. Oh, my sides hurt. I do thank you, JWT – that was actually the funniest post of the year. After looking for someone – anyone – who would finally concede that ID needed to provide an empirically grounded definition for the word “intelligent”, and chasing ID folks all over the map while they dodge the question, and having StephenB finally settle on the concept of contra-causality (that the rest of us know by the term “free will”)…. you come along and suggest we go all the way back to the beginning! Hahahahahaha, this really is too much
Stop being such a jackass. We agree that defining intelligence in terms of free will, determinism, natural, or non-natural clouds and poisons the issue unneccesary. We know we can identify human-designed results (see archaelogy etc.) without resorting to philosophical worldviews. We know materialists who don't believe in free will can believe in ID (aliens designed humans). So what's next?JWTruthInLove
August 20, 2014
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This time if you ignore my response again, I will not again assume you agree with me. Rather, I’ll assume that you can’t think of a response but remain closed-minded to follow the evidence where it leads.
Seems like bullying to me--I'd call it for what it is. Some the the questions posed here are difficult to address. Terman thought intelligence could be reduced to a single number, a quotient based on age and relative neurological development. This is a pretty stupid idea when you think about it. There are people that are extremely articulate, others are creative, still others have a near perfect memory, some are knowledgable, some people are amazing at chess, mathematics, or music. But that's really not the question. The question is whether something with volition has impacted nature for some purpose. Is a bee intelligent when making a hive or a spider when spinning a web? are their behaviors the result of the reinforcement of certain random acts, or the result of behavioral programming? Or some of both. A Will, an Interaction, and a Purpose . . . I understand that evaluating a possible artifact for human involvement can be pretty tricky. There seems to be a point where you're pretty sure. A Ferrari Testarossa is not likely to be produced by random processes unless you resort to a multiverse scenario. Artwork, such as an astonishing likeness of Elvis Presley or the Virgin Mary on a moldy wall is hard tp analyze, as is discovering patterns in a number series or a supposed Bible code. Nano technology results in inverted assessments. If it's simple, fragile, and clunky, it's produced by a human; but if it's highly advanced and efficient, then it's produced by nature. Or maybe aliens. Similarly, the best human designs---Dieter Ram comes to mind---design objects that feel so "natural" that one doesn't notice that they were carefully designed. If someday, aliens visit Earth and show us how they used DNA to design self-sustaining, self-replicating organisms, and how they fine-tuned our ecosystems, we would quickly find it obvious that there was "intelligent" intervention. If not, then organisms are supposedly just as obviously a spontaneous result of some natural "ratcheting" process. With the aliens absent, how could we use science to tell the difference? No one really knows. Maybe we challenge the efficacy of natural processes. Can evolution truly produce the astonishing architecture of DNA (which obviously has stopped evolving long ago)? Or the various biochemical cycles (ATP-ADP comes to mind among hundreds of others). Can the explanations and stories into which data has been fit (some say force fit) be tested scientifically? Unless you have millions of years available, the answer is no. In partnership with existing natural processes, we can subject arrangements to the laser analysis of mathematics. With weak natural processes available (natural selection and several types of mutation), the math looks pretty unlikely---Haldane's dilemma is still a serious problem for evolution. A lot of the rest suffers from ideological contamination, biological alchemy, researcher bias (for a good cause, of course), outright fraud, jealousy, ambition, feuds, academic character assassination, royalties, control of important excavation sites, indoctrination, academic reputation, publishing in the right refereed journals, and all the other lovely things we do to each other including pointless arguments based out of ignorance. In my perspective, anyway. -QQuerius
August 19, 2014
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Hi Jul3s,
Code is physicochemically arbitrary.
Yes, that is correct (the term "physicochemically" is a pretty odd choice, but I know what you are getting at).
The system in which the code operates obeys physical laws but the code is not reducible to physical law.
No, it is of course reducible to physical law. It is a deterministic physical machine that we understand fully, and I repeat: The operation can be reduced without remainder all the way down to physics.
Saying otherwise is akin to saying that there is a chemical reason that the letters ‘c-a-t’ *must* refer to the animal.
No, it is nothing like saying that. You note that codes are arbitrary with regard to physical implementation, and you are correct. But that does not mean that the system implementing the code is not not reducible to the physical implementation. You have, however, helped me understand the mistake that UB, William, StephenB, and others here are making. You are all conflating the arbitrary nature of code with some other property like non-determinism or irreducibility to physical cause. This really just is a misunderstanding on your part - let's see if I can explain this to you in a way you'll understand. Imagine I build a very complicated machine, with thousands of interacting parts. There are some buttons on the front of this machine, and some lights too. Depending on what buttons are pushed, different patterns of lights light up. The mapping between the input (button pattern) and output (light pattern) is arbitrary; say I chose it just by flipping coins, and I constructed the machine such that it functioned with that particular random mapping. So button pattern A always elicits light pattern A, and Button pattern B always elicits light pattern B, and so on. But there is no meaningful connection between the patterns - they are just randomly picked. Now, is any part of this machine irreducible to the physical parts I used to build it? Of course not - it's just a bunch of parts interacting in ways that we can describe fully in terms of physics. Agreed? Now say I decide to associate each button pattern, and each light pattern, with meaningful questions and answers, just by making a list of the associations. My list looks like this: button pattern A => "What is the capital of Idaho?" light pattern A => "Boise" button pattern B => "What is 8 X 8?" light pattern B => "64" and so on. Now that I've done this, my machine is a question-answering machine. As you would say, there is physico-chemically arbitrary code that enables the machine to connect meaningful questions with meaningfully correct answers. The machine processes information in order to reply with these correct results. Would you say that just by writing down my list of associations I somehow transformed this machine from being reducible to physics into one that is not reducible to physics? No, of course not. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 19, 2014
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False. Code is physicochemically arbitrary. The system in which the code operates obeys physical laws but the code is not reducible to physical law. Saying otherwise is akin to saying that there is a chemical reason that the letters 'c-a-t' *must* refer to the animal.Jul3s
August 19, 2014
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Hi Jul3s,
They do reliably map input to their actions but this is based on the presence of a code which by definition cannot be reduced to the physical medium in which it exists.
By definition? Anyway, Phinehas' claim was that the mapping was necessarily non-deterministic, not that it was irreducible to the physical medium. He was wrong. And as for reducing the operations of robots to physical media, of course they can be so reduced. Point to any aspect of the function of a robot, and it can be reduced without remainder all the way down to the physical properties of the hardware, along with the initial state of the machine. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 19, 2014
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"You are making some sort of distinction between these two things: 1) the mapping of visual stimuli to robotic responses 2) the mapping of solar radiation to cyclones In the first case, you say there are “determinations” and “interpretations” and “decisions” being made, while in the second case you imply none of these terms apply. And I assume you would also consider these terms apply to the thermostat system too, correct? On what possible basis are you making this distinction? The thermostat makes “determinations” and “interpretations” and “decisions” while the weather system does not?" You have forgotten something extremely important. Its called information. "So you believe that robots are necessarily non-deterministic – that they necessarily do not reliably map input to their actions" They do reliably map input to their actions but this is based on the presence of a code which by definition cannot be reduced to the physical medium in which it exists.Jul3s
August 19, 2014
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Hi William J Murray, That's rich, William. Here's what you said about me not responding to something UB had written:
Unless RDFish answers UB’s pertinent, revealing question, I’d say RDFiush has been outed as a trollish fraud here.
So what have you been outed as? A big old hypocrite, obviously. You accused me of selective hyper-skepticism, and pretended that terms such as "random mutation" had no clear meaning. I thoroughly discredited your complaints, but rather than acknowledge your error you just refuse to respond, hoping that all of the arguments that demolish your defenses will just go away if you close your eyes and plug your ears. Very bad form indeed. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 19, 2014
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This time if you ignore my response again, I will not again assume you agree with me. Rather, I’ll assume that you can’t think of a response but remain closed-minded to follow the evidence where it leads.
Nyah, nyah! If you don't answer me, I win!!!William J Murray
August 19, 2014
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That last liter should be pretty interesting. -QQuerius
August 19, 2014
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Seventy liters of fresh air are determined on the intelligent design people and their website.Mung
August 19, 2014
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Mung,
You are so confused. Or obtuse. Or both.
Hold on there, cowboy. RDFish is NOT obtuse! He doesn't weigh an ounce over 325 pounds dripping wet in his flip-flops! Sorry, I thought we needed a little "fresh" air in here. ;-) -QQuerius
August 19, 2014
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Robotics is the branch of mechanical engineering, electrical engineering and computer science that deals with the design, construction, operation, and application of robots, as well as computer systems for their control, sensory feedback, and information processing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotics RDFish:
So you believe that robots are necessarily non-deterministic – that they necessarily do not reliably map input to their actions?
You are so confused. Or obtuse. Or both. What is this mapping you speak of and what determines this mapping? Don't yo have some work on a mechanical/robotic bird to do? Want some help with the mapping?Mung
August 19, 2014
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WJM:
What good does it do to have a sight sensor that is interpreted as bowel discomfort that in turn causes the action of scratching our heads?
Wow. You've just described the precise reaction I have after reading an RDFish post.Mung
August 19, 2014
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RDFish:
This becomes even more apparent with the even simpler mechanism of the robotic temperature controller (aka thermostat), which deterministically maps input (room temperature) to output (heater activation).
Sure. The same way that every light switch always [deterministically that is] turns the light ON when pushed to the UP position and every light switch always [deterministically that is] turns the light OFF when pushed to the down position.Mung
August 19, 2014
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Hi Phinehas,
I don’t want to speak for others, but what I take away from what is being described is that the mapping is determinatively discontinuous. In order for mapping to work at all, the signals themselves cannot determine the outcome.
So you believe that robots are necessarily non-deterministic - that they necessarily do not reliably map input to their actions? I can tell you quite certaintly that this is not the case. This becomes even more apparent with the even simpler mechanism of the robotic temperature controller (aka thermostat), which deterministically maps input (room temperature) to output (heater activation). Cheers, RDFishRDFish
August 19, 2014
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Hi William J Murray,
In the robot bird example, the incoming signal must be interpreted and a decision must be made about which actuators should be activated and how they should be activated in order to correspond correctly to the interpretation. THEN, and only then, is a second signal sent to the actuators.
I don't think this is a particularly accurate description - typically there are control signals being sent constantly, in "real time", to actuators to keep them in trim; there is no "second signal" sent after some delay. Think of a simple robot that controls the temperature of a room (a thermostat). Its sensors sense the temperature, and it sends signals to an actuator (a heater element) in order to maintain the room temperature. I assume you would consider this system to have a "physico-chemical discontinuity" like the robot bird, would you not?
In the cyclone example, the processing system (atmosphere, etc.) is not interpreting data from the signal source and making a determination about whether or not it should make a cyclone, or a hurricane, or a sunny day occur....
You are making some sort of distinction between these two things: 1) the mapping of visual stimuli to robotic responses 2) the mapping of solar radiation to cyclones In the first case, you say there are "determinations" and "interpretations" and "decisions" being made, while in the second case you imply none of these terms apply. And I assume you would also consider these terms apply to the thermostat system too, correct? On what possible basis are you making this distinction? The thermostat makes "determinations" and "interpretations" and "decisions" while the weather system does not?
The atmospheric system just does whatever happens to ensue due to natural law/chance.
And the robot uses something other than law/chance? And the thermostat? What besides law/chance is operating withing these devices? A transcendent mind? A soul? A gremlin? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuy P.S.
Your assumption is incorrect.
In that case, I'll reiterate: When you attempted to show that I was hyper-skeptical in a way that would call all of our scientific terms into question, I showed that was not the case. Energy, for example, is described with sufficient precision that physicists can test and confirm their theories to thirteen decimal places. The fact that we cannot intuitively conceptualize the entities so defined does not make them less useful scientifically. The concepts of evolution, natural selection, and random mutation are easily defined to anyone's satisfaction (I'll gladly do so again if you'd like). In contrast, the term "intelligence" is given no empirically useful meaning in the context of ID theory. This time if you ignore my response again, I will not again assume you agree with me. Rather, I'll assume that you can't think of a response but remain closed-minded to follow the evidence where it leads.RDFish
August 19, 2014
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Dionisio,
If there were a Nobel Prize or a World Cup for being extremely patient when dealing with people who are not interested in discussing what you are trying to discuss, you would have won that prize or cup without any doubts.
Yes, I feel exactly the same. I'm usually patient, but not with people who argue to argue. It's pointless and stupid. As it's written in Proverbs 18:
He who separates himself seeks his own desire, He quarrels against all sound wisdom. A fool does not delight in understanding, But only in revealing his own mind.
You also wrote:
Yes, someone told me that we have to think about the many onlookers in this site. Ok, perhaps that’s a strong motivation for writing comments here.
My hope is also to get people to think for themselves. Plus I do learn from some great posts here and wonderful links.
But I would not squander precious time on dealing with people who don’t care to discuss seriously, but seem to be interested only in playing games and waiting time.
Yes, exactly. As I had to say to one person here, "I could prove to you that water is wet and the Pope is Catholic and you’d still be arguing simply to argue."
We are witnessing a clash between two irreconcilable opposite worldview positions.
Yes, they're two different paradigms, but they're not equivalent. ID can be shown historically to advance scientific progress, Darwinism to retard it. Kind regards, -QQuerius
August 19, 2014
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Hey, UB, when are going to put up that website?Reciprocating Bill
August 19, 2014
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I must remark again that UB has what is, IMO, the most irrefutable and ubiquitous of ID arguments. One of the reasons it is so difficult for some to grasp (besides denial) is that it takes something we take for granted and breaks it down to show just how (for all intents and purposes) impossible it is for law/chance to produce that which we see and use all day, every day. The translation of signal input into comprehensible information, and the processing of that information into useful, specified output which activates and operates biological machinery is beyond the reach of law/chance to produce. Imagine that any free-floating sensory input might attach itself to a free-floating processing system. It still does nothing without activating something somewhere. Now imagine this free floating sensory/processor attaches randomly to some actuators. The best you can hope for - the best - is that some output happens to activate machinery somewhere, in some way. Imagine that a flash of light evokes perspiration, a touch of ice sounds like a deep noise, a whiff of rose scent makes one shout uncontrollably. Input just causing random bodily effects. Sensory signal receipt, processing, and output action must all be coordinated not just mechanically, but conceptually, and in place at the same time to provide any useful, selectable trait whatsoever. What good does it do to have a sight sensor that is interpreted as bowel discomfort that in turn causes the action of scratching our heads? Materialists and others seem to take these coordinated systems for granted, as if it is expected that nature would take a sight sensor and hook it up with a processing system that turned that information into a 3D representation of the physical world and signaled movements that were coordinated with that world. They are assuming a can opener! How many different free-floating processing systems must be generated and happenstance actuator trials and attachments must occur before one happens upon the IC system that actually means something in terms of use and helpful function? You can't even reasonably get the three things - sensor, processor, actuator - generated and able to fit and work together by law and chance, much less have them actually produce useful work without design.William J Murray
August 19, 2014
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associative array (redirected from Map (computer science)) (programming) associative array - (Or "hash", "map", "dictionary") An array where the indices are not just integers but may be arbitrary strings. associative arrayMung
August 19, 2014
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I'm still waiting to see the RDFishBird land (or try to).Mung
August 19, 2014
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RDF: I don't want to speak for others, but what I take away from what is being described is that the mapping is determinatively discontinuous. In order for mapping to work at all, the signals themselves cannot determine the outcome. The map slots into the gap where the chains are non-determinative/physically-causally discontinuous. (The physical continuity is now relying on information and design and not merely physical causality.) From there, the map can select from many possible outcomes the one outcome that will provide the desired function. This kind of mapping, especially programmed for a specific functional outcome, is a hallmark of intelligent design.Phinehas
August 19, 2014
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P.S. And since you refuse to respond to my points @284 regardinghow the terms related to “evolution” are well defined, while the term “intelligence” still lacks a usable definition in the context of ID, I assume you have conceded the point. Thank you.
Your assumption is incorrect.
There is nothing whatsoever inherent in solar radiation that tells the Earth’s atmosphere ‘produce a cyclone’, yet after a complex interaction with the atmosphere, ocean currents, and so forth, a cyclone appears over the Pacific. The production of the storm was inherent not in the solar radiation, but in the complex structure of Earth/Oceans/Atmosphere.
No, this is not a similar example. In the cyclone example, the processing system (atmosphere, etc.) is not interpreting data from the signal source and making a determination about whether or not it should make a cyclone, or a hurricane, or a sunny day occur. In the robot bird example, the incoming signal must be interpreted and a decision must be made about which actuators should be activated and how they should be activated in order to correspond correctly to the interpretation. THEN, and only then, is a second signal sent to the actuators. The sun doesn't deliver energy to the atmospheric system and then the atmospheric system decides what it should do based on an interpretation of the energy. The atmospheric system just does whatever happens to ensue due to natural law/chance. If the examples were similar, then the processing system in the robotic bird would not have a decision-making quality to it. The incoming signal of a nearby branch (analogous to the energy of the sun) could cause any of a near infinite number of reactions in the bird; getting the exact actuators to react in exactly the right way to land on and grasp the branch would be a highly unlikely happenstance outcome. This is why the specified signal to the specific actuators in question is discontinous with the physico-chemical properties of the incoming receptor signal. It doesn't matter what those properties are; what matters is the information interpreted from them. It wouldn't matter if the bird saw the branch, "sonared" it, or smelled it; the information is "branch of X size over there". It doesn't matter what medium brings the information content in as long as there is a processing system that can interpret from it the necessary information "branch of X size over there", and then generate a highly specified signal to the actuators on what they are supposed to do to land on and grasp the branch. That information is not present in the specific physico-chemical makeup of the incoming receptor signal. And so, the two signals are discontinuous. One comes in with relatively unprocessed data. The data is in turn processed - interpreted by a decision-making machine. Decisions are made, and a 2nd signal goes out to the actuators telling them what to do to for the purpose of landing on and grasping the branch. You have here an irreducible system - receptor -> decision-making processor -> actuator. Nothing works without any of the parts. A receptor that doesn't cause anything to happen is useless. A decision making processor without input or output is useless. An actuator without anything that activates it other than randomly is useless.William J Murray
August 19, 2014
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Hi William J Murray,
The dicontinuity can be explained simply – the signal as it is from the receptor will have no effect on the actuator unless the signal is, as you say, processed towards the end of controlling the actuators. There is nothing whatsoever inherent in the signal from the receptor that says “wrap claws around object”. Nothing.
Of course! We seem to be in violent agreement about this. It is not inherent in the signal - it is inherent in the structure of the robot/sensors/actuators. Your statement is like saying, "There is nothing whatsoever inherent in solar radiation that tells the Earth's atmosphere 'produce a cyclone', yet after a complex interaction with the atmosphere, ocean currents, and so forth, a cyclone appears over the Pacific. The production of the storm was inherent not in the solar radiation, but in the complex structure of Earth/Oceans/Atmosphere.
Given a different processing, the same signal from the receptor could activate any of a number of other mechanical actuators.
Yes of course - all perfectly obvious.
In fact, we know processing systems can be faulty or different from the norm. Some people process music visually, or process smells as sounds, or sounds as tastes. It’s the same input, but it is the processing, as you call it, that sends out a signal to actuators.
And the same person will process the same signal differently, depending on their past experience, current hormone levels, how much sleep they've had, and so on. Likewise, the same solar radiation will produce different weather patterns depending on ocean currents, temperatures, greenhouse gasses, other ambient conditions... [Please don't respond by saying I'm suggesting weather is the same thing as information processing in a robot - that is not the point. The point is that simply because a complex system is affected in complex, variable ways doesn't mean there is some "discontinuity" going on.]
UB is not saying there is a discontinuity in the cause and effect sequence going on, only that there is a discontinuity between the receptor signal and the actuator input.
In forty years of work in related fields of computer science, the term "discontinuity" never arose, so please bear with me if I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to get at with this term. Is there any reference - a textbook, on the web, anything - that you could cite that might explain what a "discontinuity" is supposed to mean in this context? It is continuous in cause and effect, continuous electronically/mechanically... I have no idea what is discontinuous about it at all. It is only the highly complex mapping that occurs between input and output that you seem to be referring to. But mapping is not "discontinuous" in any way I can imagine. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuy P.S. And since you refuse to respond to my points @284 regardinghow the terms related to "evolution" are well defined, while the term "intelligence" still lacks a usable definition in the context of ID, I assume you have conceded the point. Thank you.RDFish
August 19, 2014
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RDFish, The dicontinuity can be explained simply - the signal as it is from the receptor will have no effect on the actuator unless the signal is, as you say, processed towards the end of controlling the actuators. There is nothing whatsoever inherent in the signal from the receptor that says "wrap claws around object". Nothing. Given a different processing, the same signal from the receptor could activate any of a number of other mechanical actuators. The incoming data could produce a fear response, a salivating response, a "fly higher" response, a nesting response, etc. There is nothing in the receptor signal itself that directly tells the actuators to activate. In fact, we know processing systems can be faulty or different from the norm. Some people process music visually, or process smells as sounds, or sounds as tastes. It's the same input, but it is the processing, as you call it, that sends out a signal to actuators. UB is not saying there is a discontinuity in the cause and effect sequence going on, only that there is a discontinuity between the receptor signal and the actuator input. The receptor signal, before it is processed, is entirely dicontinuous with the signal that reaches the actuator. The information necessary to activate that specific actuator in that specific way is not physiochemically located within the incoming signal, or else just hooking up the receptor directly to the actuator would have the same effect. The "processing system" is made in a way to pick up certain aspects of the receptor signal and translate those particular things into specific actuator signals. Phineas: Exactamundo.William J Murray
August 19, 2014
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WJM:
The two are not the same thing. Signal Code R (receptor) went into the translator; the translator then sends Signal Code A (actuator) out. They are not the same because just hooking the receptor up to the actuator does nothing.
It probably goes without saying, but the translator could have sent any code out, not just Signal Code A. This is the physical discontinuity. This is where the selection occurs. That it sends out Signal Code A as it is designed to do despite there being no determinative reason it should indicates the information and the intelligence inherent in the system. Without this accuracy in hitting the mark with the right signal, you would not achieve function.Phinehas
August 19, 2014
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