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Does Bayesian Fuzziness Add to the Analysis?

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In comment 30 to this post Elizabeth Liddle writes:

I can think of lots of ways of testing specific design hypotheses, but they all involve a hypothesis involving a postulated designer. And IDists insist that this is irrelevant – that “Design detection” should only involve the observed pattern, not any hypothesis about the designer. This is ludicrous, frankly.

Let’s explore one of Lizzie’s prior forays into design detection, and we’ll leave it up to the onlookers to decide which side is “ludicrous.”

In a prior post I posed the following question to Dr. Liddle:

If you were to receive a radio signal from outer space that specified the prime numbers between 1 and 100 would you conclude (provisionally pending the discovery a better theory, of course) that the best theory to account for the data is ‘the signal was designed and sent by an intelligent agent?’

Dr. Liddle responded:

Yes. And I’ve explained why.

She expanded on her explanation:

Barry, I did NOT make the inference ‘based upon nothing but the existence of CSI’!

My inference had nothing to do with CSI.

It was a Bayesian inference based on two priors:

My priors concerning the probability that other parts of the universe host intelligent life forms capable of sending radio signals (high)

My priors concerning the probability that a non-intelligent process might generate such a signal (low).

Dr. Liddle’s problem can be summarized as follows:

1.  Denying the design inference based on the prime number sequence is not an option.  The inference is so glaringly obvious that to deny it would be absurd.  Even arch-atheist Carl Sagan admitted this signal was obviously designed (when he used it as the basis of his book “Contact”).  Therefore, were Dr. Liddle to deny the obvious design inference she would instantly lose all credibility.

2.  So she asks herself:  “How can I admit the design inference while continuing to deny the methods of ID proponents?”

3.  Her solution:   “I know.  I’ll admit the design inference but cover up my admission with Bayesian fuzziness, and that will obscure the fact that I used the methods of the ID proponents while I continue to denounce those very methods.”

Notice how Dr. Liddle’s Bayesian “priors” add absolutely nothing to the design detection methods advocated by ID proponents.  Here is a graph of the explanatory filter:

Explanatory FilterExplanatory Filter

Let’s run the prime number sequence through the explanatory filter to see how.

1.  We observe an event (i.e. a radio signal specifying the prime numbers between 1 and 100).

2.  Is it highly contingent?  Yes.  We can exclude mechanical necessity.

3.  Is it highly complex and specified?  Yes.  We can exclude chance.

4.  The best explanation for the data:  Design.

Now let’s see if Dr. Liddle’s Bayesian analysis adds anything to what we already have.

Prior 1:  Estimate of the probability that other parts of the universe host intelligent life forms capable of sending radio signals:  High

It is obvious that one’s prior estimate of the probability of the existence of intelligent life forms in other parts of the universe is utterly irrelevant to the design inference.  How do I know?  By supposing the exact opposite of course.  Let’s assume that a person believes there is practically zero chance that other parts of the universe have intelligent life (as we have seen on this site, there is very good reason to believe this).  If that person were to receive this signal he would have to revise his conclusion, because the signal is obviously designed.

We see, therefore, that whether one’s Bayesian prior regarding the probability of the existence of intelligence life forms is 0% or 100% makes absolutely no difference to the design inference.  From this we conclude that Dr. Liddle’s first prior adds nothing to the analysis.

Prior 2:  Estimate of the probability that a non-intelligent process might generate such a signal:  Low

This, of course, is the explanatory filter by another name.  How do we know that the probability that a non-intelligent process might generate such a signal is low?  Because it is highly continent, complex and specified.

It is important to see two things:

1.  When Dr. Liddle correctly inferred design from the prime number sequence she had one and only one data point:  A radio signal specifying the primes between 1 and 100.

2.  Dr. Liddle knew nothing about the provenance of the radio signal.  In other words she made a design inference based on nothing but the pattern itself while knowing absolutely nothing about the designer.  When she made her design inference she did not first make a hypothesis based on the “postulated designer,” for the simple reason that there was not a scintilla of data upon which to base that hypothesis other than the pattern itself.

Conclusion:  Though she tried to cover it up with Bayesian fuzziness, Dr. Liddle did the very thing she now says is “ludicrous.”

 

 

 

Comments
OK if there is a non-zero probability of such, then what is it? If I state that there is a probability of zero that stable liquid water droplets are orbiting the earth at 1000 Km altitude, are you going to come back with something about eminent men and their sayings? This is sound argumentation?groovamos
July 16, 2013
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there is NO POSSIBILITY of a natural, non-intelligent process that will generate a signal like this, a varying signal with built-in character synchronization, and employing two frequency points to code on the EM spectrum
History is full of statements by eminent men saying that such and such is impossible who turn out to be wrong.Mark Frank
July 16, 2013
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M.F. : One line of thought might be a natural mechanism that generates a stream of increasing numbers but is filtered by another mechanism that eliminates any number that is a multiple of previous numbers in the sequence. This ain't even the half of it. Nobody has mentioned here that SETI is searching for narrowband emissions in the lower end of the EM spectrum. No physical process is known to generate such and this in itself ain't even 10% of it. Suppose such an emission is found. Very quickly, before it stops, the centroid of the spectrum of such would be determined. Then the signal would be translated to "baseband" by four-quadrant multiplication by a sinusoid of the centroid frequency, OR nonlinear processing after algebraic addition of such sinusoid. Then the alias spectral band(s) of the translated signal must be removed by a suitably selected lowpass filter. Then the resulting signal would be digitized at a suitable sample rate to avoid spectral alias distortion. These last 2 steps would be done after careful analysis of the baseband signal bandwidth. Then of course this digitized signal would be stored. Then for the hard part UNLESS the signal were intended for an unknown observer. Assuming the spectrum centroid is accurately determined as a carrier (a big question could be offered here) then there would have to be a determination of the modulation employed by the presumed intelligence. If the signal were to be intended for an unknown receiver, like us, it could be a simple modulation like frequency shift keying. Here I will make a statement: there is NO POSSIBILITY of a natural, non-intelligent process that will generate a signal like this, a varying signal with built-in character synchronization, and employing two frequency points to code on the EM spectrum. And this is even before we get talking prime number encoding OR more complicated modulation schemes. Put it this way: ZERO, Zilch, Nada, Null probability. All this hedging of bets on this thread with overly intellectualized reasoning otherwise amounts to nothing. While at this, I should challenge: look at all the intelligence required to go through the analysis steps I mention above. Then the determination of an intelligent emitter at the end of the search, knowing for sure that an information system has been discovered. Information makes no sense (haha, ironic that last word) outside the context of mind.groovamos
July 16, 2013
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RD:
But to say “intelligence” sent the signal doesn’t actually mean anything beyond “the signal was sent by something that was capable of sending the signal”, which obviously tells us nothing at all.
Look RD, we understand that you are scientifically illiterate, but really? Saying some intelligence did something changes the investigation. Do you think that archaeologists or geologists are better equipped to understand Stonehenge?Joe
July 16, 2013
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So more blah, blah, blah from the anti-IDists and still nothing that demonstrates taht they even understand science...Joe
July 16, 2013
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Elizabeth:
Well, natural forces generate coded information every time a cell in your body divides.
How are you defining "natural", Lizzie? Metghinks you are equivocating, again.Joe
July 16, 2013
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CS
BTW, there is a lack of a known moving force when it comes to the existence of the “natural forces” of space-time. So there’s at least one precedent for the idea that such things are possible. (Not that I argue that the proximate cause of Earth’s OOL necessarily be outside of space-time, because I certainly do not. Although, I think there are good arguments why the ultimate source may be.)
See my last paragraph in my post to you at 68.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 16, 2013
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SC:
Well, when you find natural forces sans intelligence generating coded information, you let me know, OK?
Well, natural forces generate coded information every time a cell in your body divides. I guess you mean wrote the coding system?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 16, 2013
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Mr Mosis:
What is a mind with no natural forces, exactly?
I have no idea, which is why my priors are low for such a mind having moved molecules together to make life.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 16, 2013
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Hi CentralScrutinizer,
For all we know, extra-terrestrial intelligent life may be “implemented” by very different means. Who’s to say to the contrary? SETI can say nothing about this in advance and neither can you. All that matters are signs of intelligence.
Say we receive a signal that doesn't appear to be caused by known physical mechanisms outside of complex living organisms. We might then assume that complex living organisms of some sort sent the signals, and that would be our best explanation. But to say "intelligence" sent the signal doesn't actually mean anything beyond "the signal was sent by something that was capable of sending the signal", which obviously tells us nothing at all.
RDFish: What would you call something that has the following properties: 1) Running, 2) Jumping, 3) Throwing. I call it “athleticism” CS: That’s perfectly legit. If we define athleticism as the properties that an entity can have of being able to run, jump and throw, then there’s no reason why “athleticism” can’t be used as a shorthand to explain a certain effect. Q: Why did Joe win Olympic Gold in the Marathon? A: Because of his superior athleticism
I suppose this explanation does tell us something by eliminating other possibilities. For example, other explanations could be "because he bribed the judges" or "for political reasons" or "because he used steroids". However, if you ask "How does Joe manage to run so well?", then the explanation of "Because of his superior athleticism" becomes vacuous - it is no explanation at all, since you are merely labeling the observation. If somebody can run well, but not throw or jump at all, is that person still athletic? Or somebody who can't run, throw, or jump, but plays championship golf? Or ping-pong? Or lifts weights? Or is an expert marksman? Or swims? Which of these are athletic? There is no right answer, of course. Something "athletic" may have one or more of these abilities, or none of them at all (maybe it can fly, or dig, or rematerialize on a different planet...) Not only that, but it may achieve these things by radically different means. Maybe it uses bones and muscles, or hydraulics, or pneumatics, or solenoids, or... And this is why saying something is "athletic" tells us precisely nothing, and that is why "athleticism" cannot serve as an explanation of anything. Likewise, "intelligence". Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 15, 2013
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Dr. Liddle @ 77:
I do not know that intricate and beautiful objects can result from a mind with no natural forces.
What is a mind with no natural forces, exactly?MrMosis
July 15, 2013
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But the lack of a known moving force weighs a little more heavily with me.
BTW, there is a lack of a known moving force when it comes to the existence of the "natural forces" of space-time. So there's at least one precedent for the idea that such things are possible. (Not that I argue that the proximate cause of Earth's OOL necessarily be outside of space-time, because I certainly do not. Although, I think there are good arguments why the ultimate source may be.)CentralScrutinizer
July 15, 2013
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Dr Liddle: I know that intricate and beautiful objects can result from natural forces without a mind. I do not know that intricate and beautiful objects can result from a mind with no natural forces.
Well, when you find natural forces sans intelligence generating coded information, you let me know, OK? :)CentralScrutinizer
July 15, 2013
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CS
So what you seem to be telling me is that the fact that the self-replicator has coded information, and that the only known source for such are entities with intelligence (understanding of nature, foresight, intent) does not matter to you. OK, fair enough.
Oh, it matters. But the lack of a known moving force weighs a little more heavily with me. I know that intricate and beautiful objects can result from natural forces without a mind. I do not know that intricate and beautiful objects can result from a mind with no natural forces.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 15, 2013
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No, I know I didn't. That's the point of the puzzle - you have very little information. You have been told that the balls could be red or blue. You have no idea of the proportions. You don't even know if the person is telling the truth or not. And the first ball you draw turns out to be red. That's it. Your life depends on it. What do you decide, and why?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 15, 2013
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Dr Liddle: Try the ball game.
You did not specify color ratio of balls in the bag, or their distribution characteristics. So IMO, there is not enough information in your puzzle to make any more than a random-ass guess.CentralScrutinizer
July 15, 2013
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Dr Liddle: I told you I couldn’t give you well-founded priors, just what I’d go for if backed against the wall. You’d go for the other thing. Fine. The problem is that neither has enough information to be anywhere near decisive either way which is my whole point.
So what you seem to be telling me is that the fact that the self-replicator has coded information, and that the only known source for such are entities with intelligence (understanding of nature, foresight, intent) does not matter to you. OK, fair enough.CentralScrutinizer
July 15, 2013
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'Do you not believe that memories are stored in the brain? How would you explain our neuroscientific findings regarding memory formation, retrieval, loss, etc. if memories are not dependent upon neurological processes?' What scientific findings, RD? There is an article online by Pim van Lommel positing that the mind is like a receiver, rather than generated by the brain. I can't find the link now but will try again tomorrow. It was extrapolated from an out-of-body experience, monitored in a very sophisticated fashion by medical people involved. Must go. We seem to know very littele else about the mindAxel
July 15, 2013
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Obviously your priors are different CS. I told you I couldn't give you well-founded priors, just what I'd go for if backed against the wall. You'd go for the other thing. Fine. The problem is that neither has enough information to be anywhere near decisive either way which is my whole point. Try the ball game.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 15, 2013
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From SETI website, "Other tell-tale characteristics include a signal that is completely polarized or the existence of coded information on the signal." http://www.seti.org/faq#obs9CentralScrutinizer
July 15, 2013
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... which is one of the things SETI is looking for: http://www.seti.org/faq#obs9CentralScrutinizer
July 15, 2013
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Dr Liddle: I have considerable evidence for the ability of molecules to assemble and disassemble via known fundamental forces, but none for any additional force.
But you don't have considerable evidence for them to assemble into Earth's self-replicator, except from prior instances of the self-replicator.
Hence my elevation of the natural prior.
I don't see why. Especially since the self-replicator uses coded information. What else has the known ability to generate that except intelligent entities?CentralScrutinizer
July 15, 2013
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CS
Agreed. And I would assume whatever/whoever is responsible for creating Earth’s bio-replicator would have that ability.
Right. But I have considerable evidence for the ability of molecules to assemble and disassemble via known fundamental forces, but none for any additional force. Hence my elevation of the natural prior. But do note that I do not, thereby, reject the hypothesis that those fundamental forces were themselves designed. But in that case they are still natural forces.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 15, 2013
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keiths: Yes indeed, but not if you are using Fisherian testing. I absolutely agree, but my beef was with Dembski's Fisher model. For a Fisher model, you really do have to specify your null carefully, and when you reject it, be clear that that null is the null you rejected, not any other null. Or at any rate, that's how I see it. In Fisherian hypothesis testing you only reject the null. What you conclude is more likely, given that rejection, is something else.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 15, 2013
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your #44 RDF: 'However, many people (including me) often have the experience of solving technical (design) problems during sleep, because conscious thought is not necessary in order to accomplish many complex tasks.' Oh no, the mind operates far more abstrusely than you give it credit for. Are you not conscious of your dreams? I am of mine; though the memory of them usually falls away quickly. But even if I weren't, even if I were not conscious of them, that is when the mind operates optimally, that is, at a much deeper and smoother level than during our waking hours, as you just pointed out. This, I believe, has implications for our understanding of the nature of our intelligence. I think perhaps more people than ever are familiar today with the idea that, as Aldous Huxley suggested, the brain is a reducing valve for survival in time. Otherwise, we'd be so close to the Beatific Vision, we'd probably be 'transported', probably and starve. There are reasons to believe that unlettered people score highly in this kind of truly heavy-weight IQ test. Christ chose the poor to be rich in faith. Consequently, as I mentioned in another post, I actually think intelligence is one of the great levelers, although to appearances, it is the very antithesis. The key function of the soul, the will, being the operative one, so that we base our world-view and values - the synthesis or lack thereof being too abstruse to be approached by other than the heart - on the assumptions we choose. Christ's precepts and his ultimate judgment of us, as related in the Gospels, are all based the disposition of our hearts not our heads - or rather, the former, before the latter. Belief and knowledge are a continuum, as are their secular counterparts. We know what we wish to know; which is what I believe philosophers call 'voluntarism'. You may be more familiar with it. I only did Philosophy I, though I think I passed it. In the end, we are all wishful-thinkers. It just happens that God has made the world to conform with the hopes and wishes he instills in us, to some extent innately, and to some extent via baptism. Wishful thinking has got a worse name than it deserves. Why should the truth be cold, hard, undesirable, not to be wished for, not to be hoped for? Beauty is very, very very closely associated with love. I mean primarily, but not exclusively, moral beauty, but not personal physical attractiveness, which, of course, is not a sure indicator of character. Although virtue, character, sometimes does shine out of a face.Axel
July 15, 2013
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Dr Liddle: Without the force-on-matter part, they can’t do anything at all.
Agreed. And I would assume whatever/whoever is responsible for creating Earth's bio-replicator would have that ability.CentralScrutinizer
July 15, 2013
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wd400 @58. Me too, wd400. Anyone go with blue? Anyone else going for red? It's the reasoning I'm interested in.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 15, 2013
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I know they do more than merely exert force on matter, CS. But they can't build anything at all unless they exert force on matter. Without the force-on-matter part, they can't do anything at all.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 15, 2013
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BTW, I'm going to the grocery store now. Anyone need anything?CentralScrutinizer
July 15, 2013
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Dr Liddle, Let me ask you, can physical forces create a computer? Or does it require a human, with their understanding, foresight, and intent? Please explain your answer in detail, because I'd like more insight into how you're using your words.CentralScrutinizer
July 15, 2013
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