Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Does ID presuppose a mechanistic view of nature?

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The Nature of NatureThomas and Aristotle have loomed large on this blog recently. I would like to have weighed in on these discussions, but I have too many other things on my plate right now. I therefore offer this brief post.

One critic, going after me directly, asserts that I’m committed to a mechanical view of nature and that I develop ID in ways inimical to an Aristotelian-Thomistic understanding of nature, according to which nature operates by formal and final causes. Life, according to this view, would be natural rather than artifactual. ID, by contrast, is supposed to demand an artifactual understanding of life.

I don’t think this criticism hits the mark. I have to confess that I’ve always been much more a fan of Plato than of Aristotle, and so I don’t quite see the necessity of forms being realized in nature along strict Aristotelian lines. Even so, nothing about ID need be construed as inconsistent with Aristotle and Thomas.

ID’s critique of naturalism and Darwinism should not be viewed as offering a metaphysics of nature but rather as a subversive strategy for unseating naturalism/Darwinism on their own terms. The Darwinian naturalists have misunderstood nature, along mechanistic lines, but then use this misunderstanding to push for an atheistic worldview.

ID is willing, arguendo, to consider nature as mechanical and then show that the mechanical principles by which nature is said to operate are incomplete and point to external sources of information (cf. the work of the Evolutionary Informatics Lab — www.evoinfo.org). This is not to presuppose mechanism in the strong sense of regarding it as true. It is simply to grant it for the sake of argument — an argument that is culturally significant and that needs to be prosecuted.

This is not to minimize the design community’s work on the design inference/explanatory filter/irreducible-specified-functional complexity. ID has uncovered scientific markers that show where design is. But pointing up where design is, is not to point up where design isn’t.

For the Thomist/Aristotelian, final causation and thus design is everywhere. Fair enough. ID has no beef with this. As I’ve said (till the cows come home, though Thomist critics never seem to get it), the explanatory filter has no way or ruling out false negatives (attributions of non-design that in fact are designed). I’ll say it again, ID provides scientific evidence for where design is, not for where it isn’t.

What exactly then is the nature of nature? That’s the topic of a conference I helped organize at Baylor a decade ago and whose proceedings (suitably updated) are coming out this year (see here). ID is happy to let a thousand flowers bloom with regard to the nature of nature provided it is not a mechanistic, self-sufficing view of nature.

This may sound self-contradictory (isn’t ID always talking about mechanisms displayed by living forms?), but it is not. As I explain in THE DESIGN REVOLUTION:

In discussing the inadequacy of physical mechanisms to bring about design, we need to be clear that intelligent design is not wedded to the same positivism and mechanistic metaphysics that drives Darwinian naturalism. It’s not that design theorists and Darwinian naturalists share the same conception of nature but then simply disagree whether a supernatural agent sporadically intervenes in nature. In fact, intelligent design does not prejudge the nature of nature—that’s for the evidence to decide [[I would change this parenthetical now; metaphysics needs to be consulted as well, 4.18.10]]. Intelligent design’s tools for design detection, for instance, might fail to detect design. Even so, if intelligent design is so free of metaphysical prejudice, why does it continually emphasize mechanism? Why is it constantly looking to molecular machines and focusing on the mechanical aspects of life? If intelligent design treats living things as machines, then isn’t it effectively committed to a mechanistic metaphysics however much it might want to distance itself from that metaphysics otherwise?

Such questions confuse two senses of the term “mechanism.” Michael Polanyi noted the confusion back in the 1960s (see his article “Life Transcending Physics and Chemistry” in the August 1967 issue of Chemical and Engineering News): “Up to this day one speaks of the mechanistic conception of life both to designate an explanation of life in terms of physics and chemistry [what I was calling “physical mechanisms”], and an explanation of living functions as machineries—though the latter excludes the former. The term ‘mechanistic’ is in fact so well established for referring to these two mutually exclusive conceptions, that I am at a loss to find two different words that will distinguish between them.” For Polanyi mechanisms, conceived as causal processes operating in nature, could not account for the origin of mechanisms, conceived as “machines or machinelike features of organisms.”

Hence in focusing on the machinelike features of organisms, intelligent design is not advocating a mechanistic conception of life. To attribute such a conception of life to intelligent design is to commit a fallacy of composition. Just because a house is made of bricks doesn’t mean that the house itself is a brick. Likewise just because certain biological structures can properly be described as machines doesn’t mean that an organism that includes those structures is a machine. Intelligent design focuses on the machinelike aspects of life because those aspects are scientifically tractable and precisely the ones that opponents of design purport to explain by physical mechanisms. Intelligent design proponents, building on the work of Polanyi, argue that physical mechanisms (like the Darwinian mechanism of natural selection and random variation) have no inherent capacity to bring about the machinelike aspects of life.

Darwinism deserves at least as much philosophical scrutiny from Thomists/Aristotelians as ID. It’s therefore ironic that ID gets so much more of their (negative) attention.

P.S. ID’s metaphysical openness about the nature of nature entails a parallel openness about the nature of the designer. Is the designer an intelligent alien, a computional simulator (a la THE MATRIX), a Platonic demiurge, a Stoic seminal reason, an impersonal telic process, …, or the infinite personal transcendent creator God of Christianity? The empirical data of nature simply can’t decide. But that’s not to say the designer is anonymous. I’m a Christian, so the designer’s identity is clear, at least to me. But even to identify the designer with the Christian God is not to say that any particular instance of design in nature is directly the work of his hands. We humans use surrogate intelligences to do work for us (e.g., computer algorithms). God could likewise use surrogate intelligences (Aristotelian final causes?) to produce the sorts of designs that ID theorists focus on (such as the bacterial flagellum).

Comments
Fascinating conversation. I can't follow the "neo-Thomism" stuff, and think it a waste of time, unless someone is getting something out of it that I do not know. Aquinas had to rely on reason for many subjects because he did not have evidence. He would certainly have been the first to recognize that. No one relies on theory over evidence unless he must. Isn't science about actually getting evidence? Example: Today, while walking in a dicey neighbourhood, I saw a cop having a polite chat with a person who probably knew something about a given recent crime (but might not be willing to say all he knew). Now, compare that with a clear and detailed video of the crime in progress, plus several captures on cell phones. That is the difference between neo-Thomism and ID, it seems to me. ID stands or falls on EVIDENCE that Darwinism is not true, and therefore evolution is once again open for business. ID threatens Darwinism because it means that Darwinism is NOT the Final Revelation that ends discussion and demands the tax dollar for its public promotion. That is the only thing Darwinists really fear. No one cares about neo-Thomism. What bothers me most, in general, is the neo-Thomists' blindness to the real significance of Darwinism in society today, in favour of endless, incomprehensible theorizing. Check out the Evolutionary agony aunt, the Big Bazooms theory of human evolution, or the Ooga! Ooga! Big Spender" theory of evolution. How can people be so blind to what is happening? It is nice to hear that Dr. Beckwith agrees that ID guys have been horsed around. That accords with the history. Of course, they were horsed around. Because they have EVIDENCE, not just fancy theories that the people who read the "evolution" trash in the newspapers cannot understand. That is what the Darwin establishment has historically feared most and reacted most strongly to. (I am in the process of writing up historical Catholic objections to Darwinism, and I note that they make virtually no use of Thomism. It is all based on lack of EVIDENCE.) 150 years ago, people knew that Darwinism did not account for the history of life - Cambrian period, for example. Did that matter? No. Darwinists just got court decisions to force their views on the education system. From there it was an easy step from tax funding to museums and the media. Anyone who is not dealing with that directly and forcefully is missing in action, as far as I am concerned, and some may be AWOL. I make no accusations. It is simply an observation about the times in which we live. Key question: Who truly does anything against the Darwin industry and all that it stands for, and takes the inevitable heat? Anyone who is not hated by tax-funded Darwinists with their "iron rice bowl" - as the Chinese say - probably is either doing nothing of importance or unintentionally supporting them.O'Leary
April 18, 2010
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Dr. Beckwith: Thank you for your reply. Regarding the quotations, I am not sure that we are using “naturalism” in the same way, so let me say what I mean by it. “Naturalism” asserts that the origins of things (galaxies, stars, planets, life, species, man) are completely accountable for in terms of the same natural laws (gravity, electrostatic attraction, etc.) that govern the everyday behavior of those things. So whereas popular religion (and in fact a good deal of learned religion) had always conceived of creation as a series of special actions of God, Kant explained the origin of the solar system without any reference to special divine action, in terms of the completely natural behavior of a cloud of cosmic gas, and Darwin conceived of the origin of species without reference to special divine action, in terms of a completely natural process involving variation and natural selection, and so on. Now if the natural processes which generate stars, life, etc., involve only blind mechanisms interacting with random contingent events, then “intelligent design” and “naturalistic evolution” are intrinsically opposed. But if natural processes express some sort of inbuilt tendency toward higher and higher levels of organization, then intelligent design and naturalistic evolution need not be opposed. It may be that the evolutionary process is itself the expression of intelligence. If so, the intelligent design of the process might well be detectable via mathematical and scientific analysis and inference, if not all through nature, at least at certain points. Thus, ID is entirely compatible with “naturalistic evolution” of the latter sort. Now, to your quotations: 1. Only the first one directly opposes naturalism to ID. And is it the second kind of naturalism that Dembski attacks here, or only the first? I can’t tell. But let’s say we give it to you. At least we must note that the statement is from 1999. Eleven years is a long time, during which one’s philosophical and theological ideas might well change, as you well know. Later, he certainly acknowledges the legitimacy of the second kind of naturalism, as I will show. 2. In the Meyer passage here, I see "chance and necessity" under attack, and I see "intelligent agency" affirmed; but I nowhere see the word “naturalism”, or the insistence that intelligence must be inserted “against nature”, or through “miracles” into "gaps" in the causal nexus. As long as intelligence is input somewhere, even if only once, say, at the creation of life, then what follows will not be mere "chance and necessity"; events will proceed in a planned direction. Meyer’s discussion implies nothing more. Whether Meyer personally believed, when he wrote this, in naturalistic evolution, miracle-supplemented evolution, or special creation, I do not know; the point is irrelevant to the presentation of ID in the passage. No miracles are *logically* required. 3. In the third passage, Dembski says that the flagellum is “designed”. He does not say that it came into being through miracles or a rupture in the causal nexus. As stated above, design is compatible with naturalistic evolution. Again, I think Denton is superb for the full treatment of that possibility. Pertinent to this, see also Dembski, *No Free Lunch*, 2002, section 6.2, p. 314: “… intelligent design is not a form of anti-evolutionism. Intelligent design does not claim that living things came together suddenly in their present form through the efforts of a supernatural creator. Intelligent design is not and never will be a doctrine of creation…. intelligent design has no stake in living things coming together suddenly in their present form. To be sure, intelligent design leaves that as a possibility. But intelligent design is also fully compatible with large-scale evolution over the course of natural history, all the way up to what biologists refer to as ‘common descent’ (i.e., the full genealogical interconnectedness of all organisms). If our best science tells us that living things came together gradually over a long evolutionary history and that all living things are related by common descent, then so be it. Intelligent design can live with that result and indeed live with it cheerfully.” See also Mike Behe’s important November 2009 statement that front-loaded, wholly natural evolution is compatible with ID: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/11/god_design_and_contingency_in.html I think we have now established, from most of your references and all of mine, that miracles, God of the gaps, breaks in the causal nexus, etc., are not logically required by ID theory. ID is compatible with a non-interventionist God. (See Cudworth’s reply to Giberson, UD, Apr. 15, 2010, for more on this point.) ID is compatible with “naturalism”. So if Thomism’s “beef” against ID is that it is inherently opposed to “natural” causation, Thomism need protest no longer. In light of this, we can evaluate your final quotation, from a critic of ID: “The intelligent design proponents scramble to find remaining places for supernatural intervention; the New Atheists claim there are none left. Both assume that God, conceived in spatial and quasi-spatial terms, needs ‘room’ to be God—which is precisely what traditional Christian theology says God does not need.” As should now be clear, ID proponents do not need to “scramble to find remaining places for supernatural intervention”. And speaking for myself, I have never argued that God needs room to be God. This sounds more like the position of some creationists, who have slowly retreated from literal reading of Genesis, yielding more and more to naturalistic explanations, yet making a “last-ditch stand” on a few points, such as the creation of life, or the creation of man. But ID is not creationism. Individual ID proponents may be creationists of this sort, but ID as a theory is not. I do not understand how you cannot know this. Regarding your other comments in some of the posts above, I have never attacked Barr, Kass, etc. In fact, I quite admire Kass. And I don’t find offensive Polkinghorne’s reticence to regard ID arguments as scientific proofs for the existence of God. I have never criticized anyone merely for disagreeing with ID arguments. I have attacked only those who criticize straw men rather than the real thing. And what dismays me is that you and Feser seem to have fallen into the criticism of a straw man. I close by repeating two previous (and still unanswered) questions: 1. Why do you not respond to Bill Dembski’s argument above, in which he denies the truth of the charge of “mechanism” that you are making? 2. Why, of all the genuinely bad theologies offered by Christians who write about nature, creation, and evolution, have you and Dr. Feser singled out the “bad theology” of ID? What exempts all the others from Thomist intellectual indignation? Especially the theologies coming from Catholics who should know better? For example, when are we going to read “The Heretical Theodicy of Miller and Ayala” with your byline under it? T.Timaeus
April 18, 2010
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“The intelligent design proponents scramble to find remaining places for supernatural intervention; the New Atheists claim there are none left. Both assume that God, conceived in spatial and quasi-spatial terms, needs ‘room’ to be God—which is precisely what traditional Christian theology says God does not need.”
And again, to whomever this applies, it does not apply to ID itself.Charlie
April 18, 2010
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Timeaus claims that the following comment of mine is false: Take, for example, the implicit claim that “naturalistic” accounts are de facto inconsistent with design. First, I said "implicit." Second, what I meant by "design" is the ID project. I thought the context of my remarks made that clear. In any event, here are some passages that seem to support my comments: Dembski: “Naturalism is the disease. Intelligent design is the cure.” (William A. Dembski, Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science and Theology (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1999), 120.) Meyer: "For almost 150 years many scientists have insisted that "chance and necessity"—happenstance and law—jointly suffice to explain the origin of life on earth. We now find, however, that orthodox evolutionary thinking—with its reliance upon these twin pillars of materialistic thought—has failed to explain the specificity and complexity of the cell. Even so, many scientists insist that to consider another possibility would constitute a departure from science, from reason itself." "Yet ordinary reason, and much scientific reasoning that passes under the scrutiny of materialist sanction, not only recognizes but requires us to recognize the causal activity of intelligent agents. The sculptures of Michaelangelo, the software of the Microsoft corporation, the inscribed steles of Assyrian kings—each bespeaks the prior action of an intelligent agent. Indeed, everywhere in our high–tech environment we observe complex events, artifacts, and systems that impel our minds to recognize the activity of other minds—minds that communicate, plan, and design. But to detect the presence of mind, to detect the activity of intelligence in the echo of its effects, requires a mode of reasoning—indeed, a form of knowledge—the existence of which science, or at least of-ficial biology, has long excluded. Yet recent developments in the information sciences and within biology itself now imply the need to rehabilitate this lost way of knowing. As we do so, we may find that we have also restored some of the intellectual underpinning of traditional Western meta-physics and theistic belief." (Stephen C. Meyer, “DNA and Other Designs,” First Things 102 [April 2000]: 38) Dembski writes: "Science works with available evidence, not with vague promises of future evidence. Our best evi-dence points to the specified complexity (and therefore design) of the bacterial flagellum. It is therefore incumbent on the scientific community to admit, at least provisionally, that the bacterial flagellum is designed. Nor should opponents of intelligent design comfort themselves with any misplaced notion that the intelligent design movement is and will be powered solely by the bacte-rial flagellum. Assertibility comes in degrees, corresponding to the strength of the evidence that justifies a claim. That the bacterial flagellum exhibits specified complexity is highly assertible—this despite the logical impossibility of ruling out the infinity of possible indirect Darwianian pathways that might give rise to it. Yet for other systems, like enzymes that exhibit extreme functional sensitivity, there could be compelling grounds for ruling out such indirect Darwinian path-ways as well. The assertibility for the specified complexity of such systems could therefore prove stronger still." "The evidence for intelligent design in biology is thus destined to grow even stronger. There’s only one way evolutionary biology can defeat intelligent design, and that is by in fact solving the problem that it claimed all along to have solved but in fact never did—to account for the emerge of multipart, tightly integrated complex biological systems (many of which displace irreducible and minimal complexity) apart from teleology or design." (William A. Dembski, The Design Revolu-tion: Answering the Toughest Questions About intelligent Design [Downers Grove, IL: Intervar-sity Press, 2004], 114-115) Timeaus, you are needlessly defensive. I tried in my post--though it seems that I did not succeed--to communicate some of the things swirling about in my mind. Yes, I understand that not everyone fits my general description of the discipline (hence, my disclaimer that I know there are exceptions). It seems to me that your conduct is not unlike what I encountered on PandasThumb. This is why I write in my recent article in the Univ. of St. Thomas J. of Law and PP: [Brad] Gregory points out the fallacy in this understanding of God’s relationship to nature: “[P]erhaps in the past Darwinism wasn’t explanatorily powerful enough to drive God out, but recent, further scientific findings no longer leave room for God.” The result is a strange parallel of ferocious posturing between ID advocates and the New Atheists: “The intelligent design proponents scramble to find remaining places for supernatural intervention; the New Atheists claim there are none left. Both assume that God, conceived in spatial and quasi-spatial terms, needs ‘room’ to be God—which is precisely what traditional Christian theology says God does not need.”fbeckwith
April 18, 2010
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Dr. Beckwith: Many of your points I will not take issue with, but I have a few comments: First, I am not the slightest bit offended by philosophical, theological, or for that matter scientific criticisms of ID. I am not one of the brittle, defensive ID proponents you seem to be alluding to. I can take tough criticism. But it has to be *fair* criticism, based on what ID says, not on what some people imagine that it says. And some of the things you and Dr. Feser have been saying lately are not things that ID claims or implies. Your attack is therefore incomprehensible to us, and our "defensiveness" is quite reasonable. 2. For example, you wrote: "Take, for example, the implicit claim that “naturalistic” accounts are de facto inconsistent with design." This is neither an explicit nor an implicit claim of ID. I do not deny that such statements have occasionally been made by ID proponents, in the heat of the moment, or in books aimed a popular religious audiences where the writing is sometimes looser. I have not seen this claim in the main theoretical writings of ID, and I have read almost all of them with extreme care. Michael Behe, Michael Denton and Bill Dembski are all on record as saying that design is not in principle incompatible with a wholly naturalistic evolutionary process. Design theory does not require miracles. One can imagine, for example, a "front-loaded" evolutionary program which over time "outputs" the various species via wholly naturalistic means. But such a program would be intelligently designed, not driven by chance. Darwin, Dawkins, Dennett, etc. would still therefore be wrong. It is not "naturalistic means" per se that ID is against; it is naturalistic means conceived of in terms of blind natural laws combined with sheer chance. On this point, I would suggest that you read carefully Michael Denton's work, *Nature's Destiny*, which shows how one can logically combine naturalistic evolution, anti-Darwinism, and intelligent design. Not all ID people would agree with Denton's conclusions, but his approach does not violate any of ID's core axioms. 3. Since you see fit to bring up qualifications, for the record, I did my doctorate in a department where both analytical and classical-medieval approaches to philosophy and theology were respected. I do not claim expertise in Thomism, but I have studied Aquinas, Gilson, Copleston, etc. And I have studied both Plato and Aristotle in Greek, and taught the Greek language for many years. I can claim some understanding of the metaphysical underpinnings which Thomism adopts or adapts from the Greek philosophers. I've also published two well-received scholarly books on the relation between Christian theology and the rise of modern science. So I don't consider myself a bush-league scholar in relation to you or Dr. Feser. (I'm also older than either of you, and have been reading academic books for that many years longer.) I think I'm your peer, and I do not see the clash that you see between ID approaches and Thomist approaches. At least, nothing you have written on the web demonstrates such a clash. 4. If ID excluded a Thomistic analysis, I could see your objection, but it doesn't. It is you and Feser who are picking this fight, not the ID people. In fact, in my alter ego I have stuck up for you and Feser and Thomism when I thought some Protestant ID people were dumping on you too hard. But your recent choice to attack ID from the Biologos platform, and your determination, and Feser's, to attack a misrepresentation of ID, has soured my initially positive attitude. 5. If, as you say, your objection is not to the science of ID but only its "bad theology", is it then your mission to attack all statements about nature, evolution, etc. which imply a bad theology, bad metaphysics, etc.? Then when are you going to publish your criticism of the very bad theology connected with the pro-evolutionary arguments of Ken Miller and Francisco Ayala? And what about the substantial portion of TE theology which is heavily Calvinist, sometimes even Barthian? Surely as a Thomist you aren't going to let the Barthian theology of nature go untouched? Why are ID proponents, and ID proponents alone, the *only* Christians whose theology of nature you have deemed worthy of public attack, if your sole motive is to uphold the Thomistic understanding of nature and God against all others? Your motives are inscrutable to me, so I won't pass judgment. I will say only that I don't find your behaviour consistent with your alleged concerns. 6. The biggest problem with your remarks, however, is that they are written as if you never read the post that Bill Dembski wrote above. He addresses the criticisms you make, and shows that he does not affirm the mechanistic view that you are criticizing him for, and you don't respond. If this is the way that you were trained to engage in philosophical debate at Fordham, maybe the program there wasn't as great as you make it out to be. T.Timaeus
April 18, 2010
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I don't think Wolfson deserved anyone going nuclear on him, or being called an ignoramus, or even receiving vitriol. Luckily Pennock's piece does none of that, even if it misses the mark a little. Wolfson certainly got enough wrong that he ought to be admonished to get up to speed.Charlie
April 18, 2010
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Tragic: I said "equivalent to heresy," and I mean in relation to ID, not a theological tradition. Sorry the confusion. Here's an example of what I meant. Consider this Weekly Standard article ( http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/562zfezu.asp ) and Keith Pennock's response: "Wolfson's Argument from Ignorance." (Lovely, eh?) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/01/wolfsons_argument_from_ignoran.html Our friends like Robby George, Steve Barr, and Leon Kass are quoted in this story, all raising questions about the Behe-Dembski project, but all speaking respectfully of ID advocates. (Wolfson himself commends the credentials of Dembski and Behe). And what do they get, vitriol. Have you ever read Kass' critique of biological reductionism? (see http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0052.html ) Wonderful piece. Not ID, to be sure. But it's a nice philosophical analysis of materialist philosophy. So, why does DI go nuclear on the Wolfson piece, suggesting that detractors like Kass, George, and Barr are ignorasmuses who just need to read one or several moral articles so they can be "up to speed." Gimme a break. That's what I'm talking about. It's almost as if there can be no legitimate disagreement with ID. One is either not well-read enough, not understanding the arguments, committed to materialism, or secretly craving approving from secular elites. Sometimes intelligent, thoughtful people--adequately apprised of the facts and the argument--remain unconvinced of your case. It happens.fbeckwith
April 18, 2010
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It seems to me that if ID wants to be taken seriously–especially among theist intellectuals–it has to stop thinking of dissent as equivalent to heresy.
Dr. Beckwith I would like references to where ID proponents have accused "dissenters" of heresay. I have seen that charge leveled against ID from BioLogos and elsewhere, accusing us of diminishing God to a tinkerer, but I've never read it anywhere in Dembski, Behe or Meyer. So would you kindly post the references where ID theorists have made these accusations?tragic mishap
April 18, 2010
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lastyear, "Specifically I’d like to see how you can make the argument that it is possible to scientifically detect designed objects without implying that other objects were not designed." Why do you insist that someone follow your inanity? You have been repeatedly given the means to understand the issue, but you simply refuse to engage it. Instead you want to deliberately misrepresent ID and then go down the path of a momentous gotcha question – one which makes no sense to the issue at hand whatsoever. Wake up. If it weren’t to provide you with some personal sense that you’ve created an enlightened observation, your observation would have no value at all. Zero. Why do you refuse to engage the answers you have been given? If you found the word “hello” spelled out on a beach, how could you tell it was designed, since the sand is presumably designed as well? What is it that makes the activity of an agent stand out? Does the activity of an agent stand out whether or not the background was designed? If so, then on what is that conclusion based? Is it perhaps that the properties of sand do not include the spontaneous formation of semiotic content? And since you’ve already run the backdoor on the assumption of human design, then imagine in your mind a pile of sand on a distance unvisited planet where you find three perfect circles surrounding a perfect triangle. Do you now wonder if the three circles must mean something, or do you revise the properties of sand? Give yourself a pep talk, and address your own rationale.Upright BiPed
April 18, 2010
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I wonder if Dr. Beckwith would explain the meaning of the following paragraph excerpted from the INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION: Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God* / The July 2004 Vatican Statement on Creation and Evolution: 30. In order to maintain the unity of body and soul clearly taught in revelation, the Magisterium adopted the definition of the human soul as forma substantialis (cf. Council of Vienne and the Fifth Lateran Council). Here the Magisterium relied on Thomistic anthropology which, drawing upon the philosophy of Aristotle, understands body and soul as the material and spiritual principles of a single human being. It may be noted that this account is not incompatible with present-day scientific insights. Modern physics has demonstrated that matter in its most elementary particles is purely potential and possesses no tendency toward organization. But the level of organization in the universe, which contains highly organized forms of living and non-living entities, implies the presence of some "information." This line of reasoning suggests a partial analogy between the Aristotelian concept of substantial form and the modern scientific notion of "information." Thus, for example, the DNA of the chromosomes contains the information necessary for matter to be organized according to what is typical of a certain species or individual. Analogically, the substantial form provides to prime matter the information it needs to be organized in a particular way. This analogy should be taken with due caution because metaphysical and spiritual concepts cannot be simply compared with material, biological data. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html Apparently, it is Dr, Beckwith's [and Dr. Feser's] argument that the ID partial analogy is not duly cautious? Or ... ?turandot
April 18, 2010
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@17 Wrong. It doesn't know if the other objects were designed or not. Just like the scanner doesn't know if there are weapons that it can't detect. There are weapons that don't exhibit those hallmarks.Charlie
April 18, 2010
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Hi Last, The argument that analogies break down at some point does not make them invalid at the point before they break down. The analogy showed you that a detection method can easily pick out one instance of a target and have nothing to say about others. How can you tell a man stabbed thirty times in the back was murdered if sometimes murderers take better care to hide their tracks? How can you tell if an artist meant to create a particular image when he could have created an image that looked unplanned? That's what the ID criteria are for.Charlie
April 18, 2010
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Dr. Beckwith, do you say any merit whatsoever in ID?tribune7
April 18, 2010
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Charlie, Your airport scanner is only useful if it can detect that certain features are hallmarks of weapons, and that only objects that exhibit those features are (possibly) weapons. So to, ID claims to 'scan' for design by looking for features that aren't in other non-designed objects.lastyearon
April 18, 2010
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But pointing up where design is, is not to point up where design isn’t.tribune7
April 18, 2010
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"No more analogies." What's that like? I say, "What if there were no hypothetical questions?"fbeckwith
April 18, 2010
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Dumb typo alert. I wrote above: "(That is, the final and formal causes were there, and rationally defensible, but they were properly part of the scientific account)." I should have written: "(That is, the final and formal causes were there, and rationally defensible, but they were NOT properly part of the scientific account)."fbeckwith
April 18, 2010
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No more analogies. All analogies break down at some point, and are not valid arguments. Especially no more analogies about things that we already know were designed and manufactured by human beings.lastyearon
April 18, 2010
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I'm glad that Bill posted these points, especially in reference to The Nature of Nature conference. For me (and I can only speak for myself) that conference was precisely the sort of public dialogue that I had envisioned when I first met Bill and many others at the Mere Creation conference at Biola in 1996. One of the participants at the 2000 Baylor conference, Dallas Willard, holds to a view not unlike the one embraced by Feser and me. Having said that, my sense--at least over the past 5 or 6 years--is that the ID movement has become unnecessarily tribal, taking shots at people, e.g., Leon Kass Simon Conway Morris, who are natural allies but who do reject the way by which Bill and Behe go about making their cases. This is not to say, of course, that the ID movement has been treated fairly or respectfully by its critics. People's lives have been inexorably altered by bullies and morons far less accomplished than their victims (Here, I am thinking of Gonzalez and Marks. The good news is that at Baylor a good Marksman always defeats a wilted Lilley). The ID movement is overly defensive when it comes to critics who are really friends but part ways for philosophical reasons. It seems to me that if ID wants to be taken seriously--especially among theist intellectuals--it has to stop thinking of dissent as equivalent to heresy. This, of course, does not excuse the lazy dissenters, the "I go to church but believe in evolution and that proves my position is correct" folks. Those guys confuse autobiography for intellectual rigor. Simply presenting yourself as evidence of an idea's conceptual coherency is like presenting Bill Clinton as evidence that there's such a thing as a "married bachelor." This view does not take Christianity seriously, since it fails to offer an attractive and responsible model for faith-reason integration. I think one of the problems is our philosophical and scientific training. Speaking for myself, I had the good fortune to have done my Ph.D. at Fordham University while studying under one of the leading Thomists of the 20th century, W. Norris Clarke, S. J. As I communicated in my Biologos quasi-autobiographical piece that influence was probably the catalyst that prevented me from embracing those aspects of the ID project that rely on notions of irreducible and specified complexity. For me, the discussions of probability and the speculation about the lack of future naturalistic accounts are fraught with far too many philosophical concessions that I could not take the plunge. Take, for example, the implicit claim that "naturalistic" accounts are de facto inconsistent with design. That never seemed persuasive to me, since I had argued elsewhere that the unborn are intrinsically valuable beings whose natures direct them to particular personalist ends even if the entire process is "naturalistic" in the sense that one could offer an account consisting of only efficient and material causes from a "scientific perspective." (That is, the final and formal causes were there, and rationally defensible, but they were properly part of the scientific account). My point is that our training shapes the way we address these issues. For instance, it is no accident that philosophers who come out of largely analytic departments are drawn toward ID more than those who come out of departments that still have a place for "first philosophy." (There are, of course, exceptions, but generally this seems to be the case). I think we underestimate how much the "naturalistic turn" has influenced the way we look at these issues. So, for example, a typical analytic philosopher who is a Christian will employ in his philosophizing the model of the empirical sciences. I think that's just a bad move, since the strictures of that approach limit the resources that we can bring to bear on our case against naturalism. There will, of course, always be Thomists who embrace ID. But most, like Ed and I, will not. It's not because we think naturalism is wonderful. It isn't. In fact, it is ridiculous on so many levels that in professional philosophy it is under attack like never before, and this is why some of the naturalist hard-liners are playing the inevitably card. They are running out of arguments; so, they hope that a Hegelian "movement of history" approach will do the trick. (Think Saul Alinski meets Daniel Dennett meets John Dewey). It just seems to me that ID (as I have narrowly defined it) will not do the trick, and in fact may teach people the wrong lessons about the relationship between God, nature, and the human person. Sorry for the rambling. But I needed to say these things. (Barry, did I do okay?)fbeckwith
April 18, 2010
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Charlie,
Sometimes the design is detectable by certain methods
I assume you mean methods other than comparing designed things to undesigned things. Please provide sources, or valid arguments. Specifically I'd like to see how you can make the argument that it is possible to scientifically detect designed objects without implying that other objects were not designed. thanks.lastyearon
April 18, 2010
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Does an airport scanner detect every weapon in a bag? If not, how can we claim it detects any?Charlie
April 18, 2010
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"Doesn’t ID only make sense if we assume that there are some things that are not designed, and thus have a comparison to make between them and the things that show hallmarks of design ?" No. Come on. "How is it possible to provide evidence for where design is under the assumption that everything is designed?" Sometimes the design is detectable by certain methods. Some design might not be.Charlie
April 18, 2010
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#6 Geeez. Here we go again. ...the argument from lunacy goes something like this: "If the letters h-e-l-l-o were spelled out on the beach, how could you tell they were designed to be there, since the sand itself was designed" People do what profits them. What profit is gained by people who to make such inane arguments?Upright BiPed
April 18, 2010
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William Dembski,
pointing up where design is, is not to point up where design isn’t.
Isn't that exactly what it is? Where is Paley's watch found? In a field. What about the faces on Mt. Rushmore? Carved from rock. Every argument made for ID implies a comparison to things that are not designed.lastyearon
April 18, 2010
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William Dembski, You said:
For the Thomist/Aristotelian, final causation and thus design is everywhere. Fair enough. ID has no beef with this.
If ID has no beef with design being everywhere, how can you then say that..."ID provides scientific evidence for where design is, not for where it isn’t." How is it possible to provide evidence for where design is under the assumption that everything is designed? Doesn't ID only make sense if we assume that there are some things that are not designed, and thus have a comparison to make between them and the things that show hallmarks of design ? Please explain. [Explanation: ID's focus is epistemological, not metaphysical. Certain objects display patterns that we can know to be designed. The contrast class here is things that we do not know to be designed, not things that are undesigned. N.B.: This doesn't mean that we can't know these other things to be designed -- ID uses certain methods for design detection and doesn't regard these methods as exhaustive for design detection. Metaphysically speaking, everything might be designed -- a theological determinist (e.g., hyper-Calvinist) would hold that everything is designed down to the finest detail. But what can we know, on the basis of standard scientific techniques (e.g., statistics and information theory) to be designed? ID is an epistemological and scientific enterprise with metaphysical implications, not the other way round. --WmAD]lastyearon
April 18, 2010
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--O Leary: "Medical doctors adopt a mechanistic view of life, for practical purposes, at certain points." Yes. To claim that ID scientists deny the reality of final causality because they measure machine-like organisms in nature is like saying that doctors deny the reality of human nature because they examine and measure the machine-like workings in the body.StephenB
April 18, 2010
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4. Lastly, what would Thomas Aquinas have thought if he had access to the information we have access to today? That’s my problem with these “neo-Thomists.” I do not believe that a man of his intellect would have wasted a second trying to defend stuff that originated in lower levels of information about how nature works, had he access to higher.
Well said Denyse. I just wasted a lot of time reading Dr. Feser's blog posts on ID and I found myself thinking the exact same thing. I seriously doubt Thomas Aquinas himself would have had such a large yet trivial problem with ID.tragic mishap
April 18, 2010
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Good post, well written. Why is this common sense explanation so hard for some to grasp? Lack of charity?Charlie
April 18, 2010
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Dr. Dembski, This caught my eye: "For the Thomist/Aristotelian, final causation and thus design is everywhere. Fair enough. ID has no beef with this." And yet it seems strange the philosophical critics of ID can't seem to see the forest for the trees. Though ID does indeed tend to meet Darwinism head on, on its own naturalistic grounds in molecular biology, none-the-less, in a grander view of the Intelligent Design found in the cosmic scale of "nature", The anthropic principle has clearly elucidated that EACH and EVERY transcendent universal constant, in the universe, is exceedingly finely-tuned for life to exist, thus pointing powerfully to a transcendent Creator of the universe who originally ordered it as such. Moreover it seems crystal clear, at least to me, that the dramatic cut off between this stunning level of apparent design found for the cosmos, and for the extraordinary "Mandelbrot set" levels of design found in biological life, is the second law of thermodynamics. And yet this second law, which marks this dramatic, grand canyon-like, cutoff, between the stunning design found in the universe and the stunning design found in life, is also, in and of itself, found to be of extraordinary design: The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose Excerpt: "The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the "source" of the Second Law (Entropy)." http://www.pul.it/irafs/CD%20IRAFS%2702/texts/Penrose.pdf How special was the big bang? - Roger Penrose Excerpt: This now tells us how precise the Creator's aim must have been: namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10^123. (from the Emperor’s New Mind, Penrose, pp 339-345 - 1989) http://www.ws5.com/Penrose/ Roger Penrose discusses initial entropy of the universe. - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhGdVMBk6Zo "Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more." Gilbert Newton Lewis The Future of the Universe Excerpt: After all the black holes have evaporated, (and after all the ordinary matter made of protons has disintegrated, if protons are unstable), the universe will be nearly empty. Photons, neutrinos, electrons and positrons will fly from place to place, hardly ever encountering each other. It will be cold, and dark, and there is no known process which will ever change things. --- Not a happy ending. http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys240/lectures/future/future.html Romans 8:18-21 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. In fact, is it not possible to deduce how nature (the entire universe) should behave from "transcendent equations" for the 2nd law of thermodynamics? Boltzmann equation Excerpt: It is also possible to write down relativistic Boltzmann equations for systems in which a number of particle species can collide and produce different species. This is how the formation of the light elements in big bang nucleosynthesis is calculated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_equation Can ANYTHING Happen in an Open System? - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyAjvOJiOes Thermodynamic Argument Against Evolution - Thomas Kindell - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4168488 And to the critic I would ask, From exactly where do these precise equations, for the second law, come from that govern how these "random" particles will behave in this universe? It seems that even though evolutionists constantly appeal to unlimited randomness, when cornered with overwhelming improbability, the fact is that the randomness they have chosen as their god in the first place is in fact governed by the transcendent living God they are loathe to admit is real.bornagain77
April 18, 2010
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Just some thoughts: 1. Medical doctors adopt a mechanistic view of life, for practical purposes, at certain points. And then later, they abandon it. For example, a doctor operating on knee or hip joints must presuppose a mechanical view of life. Knees and hips are mechanisms that cope with gravity on land. But no one can go from the operation itself (a mechanical procedure) to the question of how the patient will cope afterward, because so many non-mechanical factors come into play: (Does he really want to live? Does anyone else care whether he lives? Is he willing to obey the trusted regimen? Even if the regimen is not as good as the doctors think, at least they KNOW what he did. By contrast, if he was not obeying it, they don't usually have any medically sound information at all about what happened after the operation ... ) 2. So, nature IS mechanical in some part, and that includes the many mechanisms inside each cell. Millions of those cells die every day, I suppose, in large multicellular bodies. The principle question is, does natural selection acting on random mutation (Darwinism) suffice to explain all these machines within the life of our universe? I do not see how any rational person can believe that. The numbers no more work out than they have done in many Wall Street scandals. And, as I have said elsewhere, the problem has nothing to do with the existence of God, creationism in the public schools, or why you should vote for Fizzlegrease in the next election. 3. It is not the ID folk who adopt a mechanistic view of nature. If you want that, go to the ultra-Darwinists, some of whom deny that there is really a human mind or insist on dumb theories like the reptilian brain or the selfish gene - which anyone can discredit by doing nothing more than paying attention to the news feed. 4. Lastly, what would Thomas Aquinas have thought if he had access to the information we have access to today? That's my problem with these "neo-Thomists." I do not believe that a man of his intellect would have wasted a second trying to defend stuff that originated in lower levels of information about how nature works, had he access to higher. But we must all live where we are, as he honourably did. Still, where we are now, we must accept EVIDENCE for design.O'Leary
April 18, 2010
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