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Does information theory support design in nature?

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Eric Holloway argues at Mind Matters that design theorist William Dembski makes a convincing case, using accepted information theory principles relevant to computer science:

When I first began to look into intelligent design (ID) theory while I was considering becoming an atheist, I was struck by Bill Dembski’s claim that ID could be demonstrated mathematically through information theory. A number of authors who were experts in computer science and information theory disagreed with Dembski’s argument. They offered two criticisms: that he did not provide enough details to make the argument coherent and that he was making claims that were at odds with established information theory.

In online discussions, I pressed a number of them, including Jeffrey Shallit, Tom English, Joe Felsenstein, and Joshua Swamidass. I also read a number of their articles. But I have not been able to discover a precise reason why they think Dembski is wrong. Ironically, they actually tend to agree with Dembski when the topic lies within their respective realms of expertise. For example, in his rebuttal Shallit considered an idea which is very similar to the ID concept of “algorithmic specified complexity”. The critics tended to pounce when addressing Dembski’s claims outside their realms of expertise.

To better understand intelligent design’s relationship to information theory and thus get to the root of the controversy, I spent two and a half years studying information theory and associated topics during PhD studies with one of Dembski’s co-authors, Robert Marks. I expected to get some clarity on the theorems that would contradict Dembski’s argument. Instead, I found the opposite.

Intelligent design theory is sometimes said to lack any practical application. One straightforward application is that, because intelligence can create information and computation cannot, human interaction will improve computational performance.
More.

Also: at Mind Matters:

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Comments
Tom English is claiming a function application can increase ASC arbitrarily high. He is making a subtle mathematical error. A probability distribution consists of events with labels. A function application changes a label, but does not introduce new events. E.g. the sample space of a die roll consists of labelled events {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6}. If we apply the function f(x) = x+1 to an event, we don't change the probability of the event, just the label, i.e. turn the 6 into 7 as in English's proof. However, English says 7 is a new event that was not contained in the original distribution, and thus has a probability of 0. The only way a function application can change probability is by merging labels, e.g. f(x) = 1 labels all the die faces with 1. Thus, when we roll the die we have probability 1.0 of getting a 1. Accordingly, function application can only increase probabilities, not decrease probabilities as is required for English's argument. This means function application can only decrease ASC, at least in the way he is describing, so the non-growth theorem applies to ASC as well. Now, the way that function application can increase ASC is if it picks a new x that is more concisely described by the context. This is the way in which the law of non-growth applies in algorithmic mutual information. However, English's argument is not concerned with this angle.EricMH
November 29, 2018
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Tom English also said:
Eric Holloway is ignoring the fact that Dembski lifted specified complexity — the property of being statistically improbable in a direction specified not with hindsight alone — from Dawkins’s book, without attribution.
Except that is totally false, on two counts. Leslie Orgel described specified complexity before Dawkins did and on pages 148-9 Dembski quotes Dawkins and references "The Blind watchmaker" with respect to specified complexity. Dembski also references Orgel. And Tom doesn't even understand the argument. If he thinks his "Signature of ID" picture has any "meaning" then he is totally lost, without hope.ET
November 29, 2018
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I've been awarded the coveted "worst of the worst of ID" by Tom English. A great honor indeed. http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/evo-info-4-non-conservation-of-algorithmic-specified-complexity/#commentsEricMH
November 29, 2018
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I agree. The fallacy with Felsenstein's example is the specification is tightly coupled to the evolutionary process that generated the alleles. In FI the specification must be selected independently from the evolutionary process.EricMH
November 28, 2018
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@ EricMH, I have already looked into such arguments and they do not have anything to do with CSI. Any CSI argument would have to do with the origin of the alleles and not their distribution after X generations based on some unrealistic selection function. I don't even understand how that is information in the context of CSI, especially given that biological specification pertains to function. Dembski says that in relation to his Law it is holistic as explained above in 588. As for natural selection, it seems to fair no better than chance: The Strength of Natural Selection in the WildET
November 26, 2018
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@ET, I'll be looking into such arguments in the near or distant future. The answer is probably equivocating the selection function with the solution function. For anyone reading this thread, or any other thread I happen through: I'll make sure all personal insults are removed by mods, and I'll get repeat offenders banned from UD. Uncommon Descent must also be Uncommonly Decent.EricMH
November 26, 2018
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The following is proof that Joe Feksenstein is totally clueless when it comes to CSI: Natural selection can put Functional Information into the genome The essay pertains to allele distribution which has nothing to do with CSI. And yet Joe Felsenstein is steadfast in his willful ignorance that he has destroyed the argument that CSI only comes from intelligence.ET
November 26, 2018
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I would also add that I believe Dr. Swamidass to be well intentioned and quite a capable computational biochemist. The general intent behind his forum is laudable. However, I think his 'methodological neutralism' gets in the way of the unbiased search for truth.EricMH
November 23, 2018
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@ET, insults like that are not good form. It's fair to document Swamidass' discrepancy between claims and practice, but not to insult the person. We should not stoop to the level of our critics. From a purely practical standpoint, taking the high ground in debates is more likely to win the audience over than hitting below the belt. It is one of the things that attracted me to ID in the first place, and turned me off the opposition, since ad hominem is a sign the debater's position is weak. The most effective way to defeat an opposing argument is to interpret it in the most charitable way possible, and conclusively show it is still flawed.EricMH
November 23, 2018
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This comment has been removed by the moderator.ET
November 23, 2018
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@ET, yes, you are correct. As a software developer, the ID argument from DNA is blindingly obvious. The genetic code is Turing complete, so is the same as any computer code in your favorite language. All programmers know it is next to impossible to generate merely compilable code through a random process, let alone code that does something useful. Even with guidance, as in genetic programming, it is extremely difficult to get decent code that performs some simple task, and requires a fair amount of human intervention along the way. Generating an entire 4D biological organism, not to speak of an entire global ecosystem of such beings, is completely out of the question. All of this can be addressed through the FI technique that gpuccio explained to me earlier in the thread, and with standard Shannon and Kolmogorov terminology. Dembski's CSI is just a more generalized form of these theories, and can incorporate more causal agencies than traditional information theory can. Then, of course, there is the whole neglected question of how we get the genetic code in the first place. This also is extremely difficult, especially if we have to start with an analog system. And finally, it isn't even clear that life and mind are Turing reducible, which means there is a fundamental gap between physical laws and life that is impossible to bridge regardless of the infinities of probabilistic resources brought to bear. So, if we take off the ideological blinders, ID is just about as brute a fact as there is, in Sean Carroll's terminology. It is a credit to the materialist PR machine that anyone thinks differently these days. At any rate, clearly I should write all this up in formal detail.EricMH
November 23, 2018
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Dr. Swamidass is really committed to the idea that science cannot detect God, similar to the non-overlapping magisteria idea promoted by Stephen Gould in recent history, and related to Averroesism from medieval times. My reading is he wants to develop scientific explanations, such as geneological Adam, which are consistent with the Biblical account, but do not prove the existence of God. He also endorses an empirically undetectable guidance of evolution by God, which would not be ID. It is also exhibited by his 'entropy = information' claim. This way scientific accounts can stride a neutral zone between atheism and Christianity. As such, Swamidass' agenda is not driven so much by discovering the truth, but to establish 'peaceful science' that is consistent with many different sides of the aisle. A 'methodological neutralism' or 'Swiss science,' if you will. It is also why he is against positions like ID that turn out to have much stronger implications if they are true. It is not so much because the evidence is or is not there, but because ID violates the broader agenda of 'peaceful science' that is neutral on the big questions. Hence the verbal posturing of giving ID a 'fair hearing' but in practice appears to be more about discrediting the intellectual viability of ID, especially on the information theory side, since info theory establishes the validity of design detection on fundamental mathematical grounds, eliminating wiggle room and linguistic ambiguity.EricMH
November 23, 2018
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But anyway... In "Signature in the Cell" Meyer defines "information" basically as it is found in standard and accepted dictionaries: the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (such as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects His wording may be slightly different as I pulled that from Merriam-Webster. Both Meyer and Dembski also reference the not-so knightly Francis Crick:
Information means here the precise determination of sequence, either of bases in the nucleic acid or on amino acid residues in the protein.
Durston, et al's Functional Sequence Complexity appears to follow the same definitions. In "No Free Lunch" William brings up "discrete combinatorial objects" in reference to irreducible complex biological structures. One of his 3 parts of a DCO is the origin of the parts, which would be the proteins of say ATP synthase. Those proteins are coded for in the DNA. The other two parts of the DCO equation are the getting the parts to the right place (at the right time) , ie the localization issue and properly assembling them into the functional unit, ie the configuration issue. One thing that stands out is the holistic nature of what is being discussed. It is more than just getting the words of "METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL". You need the sentence or you get nothing but a "you tried". The point being is that once we have that we should be able to apply Shannon's methodology to quantify it. OR am I the one totally misreading what these guys- Dembski, Meyer, Durston, et al- are doing? OR should I stop reading what Mung has to say about it because he is the one making me question this? :cool:ET
November 23, 2018
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As a theistic evolutionist Joshua is a closet IDist. And as a theistic evolutionist he denies that evolution proceeds via blind and mindless processes. He lives with a deeply conflicted mind. The only thing that saves him is willful ignorance due to pride.ET
November 23, 2018
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Also seems ironic that a forum titled "Peaceful Science" is mostly devoted to tearing down theories that Dr. Swamidass disagrees with.EricMH
November 23, 2018
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Something I would like to see over at PS is Dr. Swamidass defend his Adam and Eve idea. He spends a lot of time "ruthlessly destroying" other people's theories, so for a change of pace it'd be interesting to see him articulate his own theory. It sounds pretty groundbreaking if Dr. Swamidass can show the proposed minimum bottleneck of 12,000 people is incorrect. William Lane Craig apparently found it pretty compelling.EricMH
November 23, 2018
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@Mung & ET, yes, Dr. Swamidass originally told me he'd be a step above the normal ID critic, but I just see more of the same, except now pretending to give ID a fair hearing. I prefer the normal critic that makes no such pretense, hence my foray over at TSZ. 'Peace, peace,' they say, when there is no peace. - Jeremiah I found TSZ to be fruitful from Dr. English and BruceS responses. Dr. Felsenstein also gave a simple scenario for me to illustrate the information conservation, so that was good too. I plan to head back when I have more relevant content to discuss.EricMH
November 23, 2018
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Joshua is also big on forming his own definition of "evolution". If you disagree with universal common descent you are anti-evolution, which is weird because evolution isn't defined that way.ET
November 23, 2018
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EricMH:
A slightly new approach is the peaceful pity party:
Quite the contrast. Is that what people mean by an echo chamber? Joshua is big on finding points of agreement, but I'm not sure that extends to agreeing on anything when it comes to ID unless it's that ID is bad.Mung
November 23, 2018
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I put in my response to Tom English's article. It has good math, but what it shows does not seem controversial to me. I'm holding off on the Wigner article because I want to have a good explanation for BruceS, and that'll take a little time to put together.EricMH
November 21, 2018
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Just look at this exchange between Bill Cole and Joe F:
Bill: I think Eric’s argument is around the forming of the Genes themselves. Joe F: If so, it’s irrelevant to CSI.
Not according to "No Free Lunch". It is the sequence specificity that produces biological function that is the issueET
November 21, 2018
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Yes, it is a strange avoidance, because Marks and Ewert wrote an entire book on this exact scenario, along with numerous papers. Don't know what to say, except it is a consistent pattern with the ID critics. Does that indicate intelligent design on their part? :DEricMH
November 21, 2018
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Joe Felsenstein is still so clueless that he thinks if an allele rises to prominence in a given population then it is an increase of information because the uncertainty has been diminished. He has been told many times that this is wrong and yet he refuses to change. You cannot reason with people who are like that.ET
November 21, 2018
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Eric, Neil thinks that a computer system's OS is a blind and mindless process. He will do his best to not understand anything people who oppose hos personal point of view has to sayET
November 21, 2018
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Such purposeful obtuseness on the part of Neil Rickert and Tom English also shows the ID arguments have hit home. To keep making the point of the original article, I've noticed this trend ever since I started looking into ID over a decade ago. A slightly new approach is the peaceful pity party: https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligence-as-a-halting-oracle/3063EricMH
November 21, 2018
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@ET agreed with Tom English. His latest OP on the "non conservation of ASC" is a good example of this. Excellent mathematical derivatives, but the entire article is based on misunderstanding ASC. However, the derivatives are useful, so I'll give him that.EricMH
November 21, 2018
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Tom English is good at math but very bad at debating and understanding what is being debated. I don't know Bruce but I will take your word for it. It looks like you have at least two people that will debate you without reverting to insulting you. That is a start and a good start at that.ET
November 21, 2018
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@ET, BruceS has some excellent comments, and Tom English occasionally does as well. The rest is to be expected, but is still a step up from the passive aggressive appeals to authority at Peaceful Science. @Jawa, indeed, we need to totally revamp our scientific paradigm to make way for ID.EricMH
November 21, 2018
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Perhaps what leading edge biology research is discovering these days can't be understood using the currently available mathematical tools and scientific ideas. A superior way of abstract thinking might be required. The mind-boggling functional complexity we are observing demands a more serious approach to revising our current way of looking at it. This is a real scientific problem that requires honesty, humility and open mindedness. Too much talk won't lead us anywhere worth being in. Let's wake up and smell the flowers. Then get back to work. Biology has become the new queen of science, having math, physics, chemistry and other fundamental science fields as servants. Tomorrow will be more fascinating than today. Let's just look ahead.jawa
November 21, 2018
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Good luck with that. Neil already refuses to understand your point about intelligent agencies and halting oracles.ET
November 20, 2018
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