Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Driving a Stake Through the Heart of Rationality Itself

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

I had an epiphany today. I think, after all this time, I finally get it. I had the epiphany when I read this comment by eigenstate to my prior post:

Materialists are quite clear about the illusory nature of, say, folk psychology, . . . materialism is the vehicle for making the case that these intuitions *are* illusory. Just so it’s clear, I encourage any and all to accept the illusory nature of what a scientifically-informed materialism would identify as illusions.

Let us be clear about that phrase “folk psychology.” Here eigenstate is using a buzzword of eliminative materialism that refers to the following four general concepts:

1. ‘Belief,’ ‘desire’ and other familiar intentional state expressions are among the theoretical terms of a commonsense theory of the mind. This theory is often called ‘folk psychology’.

2. Folk psychology is a seriously mistaken theory. Many of the claims it makes about the states and processes that give rise to behavior, and many of the presuppositions of those claims, are false.

3. A mature science that explains how the mind / brain works and how it produces the behavior we observe will not refer to the commonsense intentional states and processes invoked by folk psychology. Beliefs, desires and the rest will not be part of the ontology of a mature scientific psychology.

4. The intentional states of commonsense psychology do not exist.

What is Folk Psychology? Stephen Stich, Ian Ravenscroft

In summary:

Eigenstate intends for us to believe that intentional states do not exist.

Eigenstate desires for us to believe that desires do not exist.

Eigenstate believes (and asks us to believe) that beliefs do not exist.

Eigenstate wants us to know that the word “I” in the sentence he just wrote (i.e. “I encourage any and all . . .”) maps to an illusion – i.e., his illusory perception that he has subjective self-awareness.

All of this is, of course, monstrously idiotic and logically incoherent. If it were true it would undermine rationality itself, and no sane person believes any of it is true, including eigenstate himself. Yet he says it anyway.

WHY?

Here is where I had my epiphany. Eigenstate says it not because he believes it (it is not possible for a sane person to believe it). He says it because he must say it, because he is dedicated to eliminative materialism despite the patent absurdity of its entailments.

Before my epiphany I had always labored under a false assumption about human nature. I assumed that if anyone asserted a proposition they later learned was logically incoherent, they would choose logic and abandon the proposition. I was wrong. With true believers like eigenstate – fundamentalist materialist if you like – the materialism comes first. Reason and logic be damned. They are willing – even eager it seems – to drive a stake through the heart of rationality itself in order to cling to their religious beliefs (i.e., eliminative materialism). I won’t make that mistake anymore.

Here’s the irony of it all. I am all but certain that eigenstate has mocked what he calls “irrational religious fundies.”

Comments
OT: Dr Frank Turek interviews Eric Metaxas (Wall Street Journal Article on fine tuning is discussed). http://streamer1.afa.net/afr-aod/CrossExamined/FT_20150411.mp3bornagain77
April 18, 2015
April
04
Apr
18
18
2015
06:39 AM
6
06
39
AM
PDT
WJM:
IMO, there is a distinction between mind and soul (though others may use the terms differently than I, where universal mind holds both)...
You omitted spirit, and heart, which some distinguish from soul:
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. – Hebrews 4:12
Heart being the a repository for thoughts, yet being distinct from mind:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind. Luke 10:27
Of course, some argue that soul encompasses mind, or that soul encompasses heart; some thoughts repose in the heart while judgment is accomplished by the spirit, which itself is never judged. Somewhere in there is self. Some posit Atman, as distinct from Brahman, while maintaining that that Atman is Brahman. The anthropologist Clifford Gertz observed that while all cultures have some conception of what a human “self” is, as opposed to a rock, an animal, a rainstorm, or a god, those notions may sound a bit strange to our ears:
They may be conceived to dart about nervously at night shaped like fireflies. Essential elements of their psyches, like hatred, may be thought to be lodged in granular black bodies within their livers, discoverable upon an autopsy. They may share their fates with doppelganger beasts, so that when the beast sickens or dies they sicken or die too." - Local Knowledge
So we have body and brain, and immaterial mind, and soul, and spirit, and heart, and intent, and probably a self in there (with an inner child?), or maybe atman, which is brahman, or maybe selves flitting like fireflies, with fragments of psyche lodged in our livers, or residing in doppleganger beasts. All of which is very powerful, and enables us to construct sound psychological explanations for others' statements and behavior.Reciprocating Bill
April 18, 2015
April
04
Apr
18
18
2015
06:34 AM
6
06
34
AM
PDT
IMO, there is a distinction between mind and soul (though others may use the terms differently than I, where universal mind holds both); the soul is our well of acausal, demiurgic intent and the mind is a great immaterial machine that, properly used, does the bidding of the soul. It is perhaps an infinite reservoir of data, computation and creative information. The soul intends, and the mind computes, finds, and presents the result of that intention. (IMO, this describes the process of, say, writing a post here; I intend to write a post about a thing or a response to a thing, and the mind begins computing a response automatically, leaving me to intentionally sort through what it, as a good servant, has brought to my attention.) If our intent is to preserve something we wish to be true, such as there being no god, then our mind mechanically sets to that task. It is capable of wondrous feats of illusion, delusion and self-deception. It can preserve any belief regardless of how utterly absurd. When materialists are presented with argument that is problematic in a certain way, their mind scrambles to find a way to defeat it or cover it up; lacking that, it can simply be ignored and covered up with a satisfied, smug sense of "in any event, they cannot be right, whether I'm clever enough to textually defeat their argument or not". It's not a battle any argument can win because the mind, set on its course by the individual's intent, can defeat any argument and evidence, no matter how necessary or compelling, simply by altering how incoming information is perceived, processed, interpreted and presented to the individual observer. The mind is their servant; they do not, under any circumstances, want to think that there is any kind of god; the mind obediently obliges in the task of deceiving the self. Until they freely choose at least to send the mind on a course not of defending their atheism or materialism, but on discovering what is true - or, at least, what is logically consistent and justifiable - there is no penetrating the machinations of their minds. However, this is true of all of us; we all have the capacity to set our minds to defend a particular idea instead of finding the truth. So, let their posts here serve as an eye-opening example of what can happen if one insists on defending an idea instead of being honestly self-critical about our own views. Debates such as these are opportunities to examine our own views, even if they are rather pointless in terms of relieving others of their self-inflicted madness.William J Murray
April 18, 2015
April
04
Apr
18
18
2015
05:08 AM
5
05
08
AM
PDT
I am all but certain that eigenstate has mocked irrational religious fundies.
This irrational religious fundy thinks Eigenstate is just an illusion brought about by the desires, beliefs and desires of the one who deceives, the one who was already around soon after man was first created.awstar
April 18, 2015
April
04
Apr
18
18
2015
01:41 AM
1
01
41
AM
PDT
G2: Reason is foundational to argument and intelligence; thence, to intelligently directed configuration, aka design. If we are dealing with an ideology that is perfectly willing to burn down the temple of reason itself rather than yield the point that it is manifestly self-referentially incoherent, self-falsifying and self-refuting on its own declarations [I think I am going to headline this] . . . see how hard I have to work to hammer home the point . . . them we need to show it. And so, your current talking point line on how UD is irrelevant to design issues collapses yet again. Not that -- per long track record -- that will make much of a difference to the rhetorical games afoot. KF PS: If you are interested in a current technical thread, try this one, which parallels things elsewhere: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/id-foundations/should-id-supporters-argue-in-terms-of-themodynamics-or-information-or-basic-probability/kairosfocus
April 18, 2015
April
04
Apr
18
18
2015
01:25 AM
1
01
25
AM
PDT
Eliminative materialists of any variety are people who want power without the need for any justification. If we keep that in mind, their scheme works. Their best bet is to get it enforced through the school system. They are doing quite well.News
April 18, 2015
April
04
Apr
18
18
2015
12:18 AM
12
12
18
AM
PDT
Can I take it that this blog is no longer about ID ?Graham2
April 17, 2015
April
04
Apr
17
17
2015
11:17 PM
11
11
17
PM
PDT
"Mung and Neil, you have derailed the thread. Cease." What do you suppose they really know and can verify or even "significantly substantiate" how it is the biochemical configurations comprising themselves came to be in order to respond or even as you suggest to "you have derailed the thread"? Why waste time by confusing these simpletons with fuzzy philosophical and non relevant bantering instead of focusing on more fundamental issues related to life's origins and the historical development of living ecosystems?bpragmatic
April 17, 2015
April
04
Apr
17
17
2015
10:20 PM
10
10
20
PM
PDT
Barry, The title of the OP is "Driving a Stake Through the Heart of Rationality Itself." I've just provided a case in point. A rather blatant one, I thought. But as you wish. My participation in this thread is ended.Mung
April 17, 2015
April
04
Apr
17
17
2015
09:47 PM
9
09
47
PM
PDT
Mung and Neil, you have derailed the thread. Cease.Barry Arrington
April 17, 2015
April
04
Apr
17
17
2015
09:38 PM
9
09
38
PM
PDT
RB, if you comment at 6 has a point I was not able to suss it out. Thanks for dropping by though.Barry Arrington
April 17, 2015
April
04
Apr
17
17
2015
09:37 PM
9
09
37
PM
PDT
Neil Rickert:
I take a religious belief to be an emotional commitment to a statement. Such a belief need not be religious, of course.
Well Neil, I have to tip my hat to you for that bit of honesty. Religious beliefs are not necessarily religious beliefs. Can you perhaps come up with a different term for these non-religious religious beliefs? Neil Rickert:
I really don’t know of other kinds of beliefs.
All beliefs are religious beliefs. Is that what you're saying? Neil Rickert:
I don’t deny that people can have religious beliefs. I had those myself at one time.
You once had beliefs, emotional commitments to a statement, but no longer. All your beliefs now are unemotional? Or what? How would you know?Mung
April 17, 2015
April
04
Apr
17
17
2015
09:33 PM
9
09
33
PM
PDT
There is a huge literature on the status of folk psychology dating from the 1980s, with many different viewpoints offered on it's status vis philosophy of mind and particularly an evolutionary view of theory of mind. Radical eliminitavism is just one viewpoint. Indeed, in his 1996 book "Deconstructing the Mind," in which the essay quoted above is reproduced, Stich himself repudiated the radically eliminatavist view of folk psychology described in the 1993 article you quote. "This book is about the unraveling of a philosophical position. In some of the chapters, including this one, I'll tell the tale in the first person, since the position that came unraveled was my position, or at least one I was seriously tempted to endorse...the doctrine is called eliminative materialism, though more often it's just called eliminativism..." (from the Introduction, page 3). My take is that there is a sense in which the fundamental elements of folk psychology are neither true nor false. That's because folk psychology is not a theory of human functioning at all, but rather a fundamental human social-cognitive adaptation essential to human functioning. It use is both a cognitive and a social praxis, not a prototheory, a praxis with deep roots in human evolution, and as such is no more due for replacement by an updated theoretical account (say, a Churchlandesque neuroscientific account) than a theory of respiration will replace our lungs. So, it's not going anywhere.Reciprocating Bill
April 17, 2015
April
04
Apr
17
17
2015
09:24 PM
9
09
24
PM
PDT
Neil, you misunderstand. Eliminative materialism says that beliefs of any kind — not just particular beliefs, such as religions beliefs — are an illusion.
As far as I know, there are a variety of eliminativists, and they don't all want to eliminate the same thing. Some want to eliminate beliefs. Others are mainly concerned with eliminating intentionality. And some just want to eliminate the "folk pschology" story. What do you make of John Searle. I'll have to paraphrase from memory since I don't have the book. He says that beliefs are not part of any theory, yet people have beliefs. So he would presumably agree with at least part of what you quote from Stich, but he is not usually considered to be an eliminative materialist. (I don't know whether he is a materialist).Neil Rickert
April 17, 2015
April
04
Apr
17
17
2015
09:22 PM
9
09
22
PM
PDT
What are the various categories of beliefs you believe people can have, and how is a ‘religious belief’ distinguished from other beliefs?
I take a religious belief to be an emotional commitment to a statement. Such a belief need not be religious, of course. I really don't know of other kinds of beliefs. I'm not sure what philosophers are talking about when they say that knowledge is justified true belief. As best I can tell, those beliefs are mythological creatures in the epistmologist's imaginary zoo.Neil Rickert
April 17, 2015
April
04
Apr
17
17
2015
09:10 PM
9
09
10
PM
PDT
Neil:
I don’t deny that people can have religious beliefs.
Neil, you misunderstand. Eliminative materialism says that beliefs of any kind -- not just particular beliefs, such as religions beliefs -- are an illusion.Barry Arrington
April 17, 2015
April
04
Apr
17
17
2015
09:06 PM
9
09
06
PM
PDT
Neil Rickert:
I don’t deny that people can have religious beliefs. I had those myself at one time.
What are the various categories of beliefs you believe people can have, and how is a 'religious belief' distinguished from other beliefs? Please explain how what you believe about other people's beliefs is not itself a religious belief.Mung
April 17, 2015
April
04
Apr
17
17
2015
08:52 PM
8
08
52
PM
PDT
I'm guessing that you might be jumping to conclusions about Eigenstate. But I don't read minds, so Eigenstate will have to argue that one himself. Instead, I'll talk about my own views. I mostly agree with those 4 statements that you quote from Stephen Stich. However, I am not a materialist. I don't deny that people can have religious beliefs. I had those myself at one time. But when philosophers talk about beliefs as in folk psychology, they mean something different. I've never quite been able to work out what they do mean. I first heard of folk psychology at around age 50. It seemed like a ridiculous "just so" story at that time. And it still does. I seem to have managed to get through life quite well, without having heard of folk psychology. A few thousand years ago, people mostly accepted a flat earth theory. And they would have argued that to believe otherwise would be insane. They might be using the same style of arguing that you are using. Yet here we are, with the flat earth theory rejected by most.. There isn't one single way of looking at how things work. You should not be surprised that people disagree over that. We have seen the transition from Aristotle's science to Newton's science, to Einstein's science, and to quantum science.Neil Rickert
April 17, 2015
April
04
Apr
17
17
2015
08:41 PM
8
08
41
PM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply